Crazy idea - group beta

[binky]

Hey everybody. I'm a previously old writer who fell off the writing wagon a few years ago--actually, hitting the wall creatively pushed me off, and just recently decided to try to climb back on.

A recent attempt to post to Pens didn't go too well, and I'm a bit low on confidence. It was a practice piece of PWP I'd written to get me back in the groove of writing regularly. But, it's got problems as far as flow, and perspective, and memory/tense techniques, and writing sex.

So, it occurred to me that maybe I should try a beta again. But honestly, I really don't think I'd benefit from the regular one-on-one beta process I've done in the past. I don't need help with grammar or spelling or American idioms, which from experience is often what a new beta-writer relationship has to start with. The help I need is more with plotting and pacing and technique, and it normally takes a while (sometimes never) and a lot of stop-stuttering to find the right kind of one-on-one beta for that, one that thinks similarly as you do, but different enough that there is some contrast to cause some creative friction needed to move writing along. So, I thought, maybe a more public process would work out better. I was thinking I'd post it here and solicit comments from anyone interested, then after it's been reworked with any feedback, post it to Pens, where I think finished pieces should go.

Just to let you know, it's a practice piece, not what I'd consider my serious unfinished project, The Coven (link in my signature). I want to keep The Coven private until it's ready to post. I want that story to be only from me. But selfishly, I'm hoping anything I learn with this will help me finish The Coven. So you all know what it is this practice piece is, here are some details:

- Tentatively titled Homecoming. Kind of a lame name. So a new title might be in order.
- P(with)P. Setting is San Diego, 2008. Off a what-if? scenario that got planted in my head years ago from TuesBlu's Creation Myth fic, of Willow accidentally getting Tara pregnant. So, the couple have been together for 8 years and have three kids from magic. Willow comes home early from a conference while Xander is babysitting the kids and Tara paints a few rooms in the house, so they conveniently have a day and a half to themselves to get into all kinds of naughtiness.
- Currently 14,000 words long, with no intention of making it longer. I have other fish to fry.

So, what do you think? Good idea? Bad? Does anyone think they'd be interested in this as an experimental project?

[BeMyDeputy]

Binky,
Several things about this intrigue me.
-When the first bit of Homecoming was up, I read it and had many thoughts about it; I was sad when I went looking for it again to find it gone. My impression was that it has a lot of good in it, but needs a solid editor to take a weed-whacker to it. Based on this post, it seems you feel similarly. I think?
-I live in San Diego, so there's that.
-I like the idea of people talking about betaing. When we think about stories one post at a time, I think it's easy to lose sight of things like character arcs, tempo, consistency across chapters, etc. I like stories that set things up slowly, and have them pay off down the line. But a beta can't help with that without seeing the story as a whole. The only reason I've gotten away with not having an outline for my major story is that it's canon, so dlline already knows what happens (though we did have some 'how will you handle x' discussions early on).
-Bringing the kind of topics you cite into discussion gives people a vocabulary for talking about them, and in turn, that makes it easier to leave comments on those things. So I think it's good for the health of the board as a writing community to have people engage over those aspects of critique.

A major problem I see with this idea is that 14,000 words is way, way too long to do a comprehensive edit using the board interface. MS Word comments are simply a must for something that long. Even the first bit that you had posted, saying everything I had to say about it would take so long using the board that, honestly, I just wouldn't. If you want to learn the kind of things you're talking about here, you need a less cumbersome method of communicating.

That's what I've got at first blush. Intrigued, though.

Kate

[Kajun]

Binky, I am all for this idea. I was more than a little confused when you asked for the new fic thread be removed before anyone had a chance to leave feedback. But reading this, I totally get it. Your comment regarding getting the right beta is spot on. Writing styles, interests, availability, the level of critique desired, etc. all factor in. This forum was created to help writers hone their skills and help each other. It’s unfortunate that it isn’t being used more often so much applause to you for trying a group beta.

Regarding the length of the story: 14,000 words isn’t really that long… just ask Katharyn!

Chin up! Being a bit rusty after years away is common.

[BeMyDeputy]

Regarding the length of the story: 14,000 words isn’t really that long… just ask Katharyn!

Oh, I didn't mean the story was long. 14k words is what, short story length?

I just, well, I cover things in red ink when I seriously critique, and that'd be hard to do with bbcode.

[Kajun]

Regarding the length of the story: 14,000 words isn’t really that long… just ask Katharyn!

Oh, I didn't mean the story was long. 14k words is what, short story length?

I just, well, I cover things in red ink when I seriously critique, and that'd be hard to do with bbcode.

Yeah, I was just thinking of Katharyn when Binky mentioned word count. It's a thing.

I don't think marking in red to critique a fic here on the kitten would be allowed even if it was a short, short story. One of the rules. There would need to be a different, non font color/size changing, way to highlight specific things. It could be managed on the board if you were inclined to give it a go using a different method of marking. I think that would be great. If it was done off board all kitten members wouldn't benefit from the efforts, you know?

[binky]

Thank you both very much for chiming in.

Kate, I was an English lit graduate student for a few years before computer use superceded typewriters (yes, I'm a dinosaur), so marking papers is in my blood too.

Just to clarify, to me, this is a practice piece, so I’m not as possessive about it as I am about my “serious” projects like the Interludes or The Coven or the other mid-size story I am working on. It definitely needs work and I am very much open to the idea of critiquing the hell out of it. As far as a betaing project, I’d be very hesitant to take it to a private group email. I’d rather anyone on the board (myself included) be able to cherry-pick what criticism/suggestions to make or take as they please without commitment. Obviously I think it would be good for me as a writer, but as Kajun pointed out, it also might benefit betas, to see how other betas work beyond the basics (since I honestly don’t think spelling or grammar are at issue). So, win-win!

I do confess my biggest fear would be no one would find anything to comment/criticize on even in this practice/beta setting, but then I wouldn’t be worse off than I am now, right?

As far as the length, I know the length and managing it on a board versus email was one of the things that would need to be taken into account in a workshop-based project like this. I mean sure, a five page one-off like a PWOP would be easier to manage but you’d certainly also miss out on critical opportunities only a longer piece provides, like technically how to break into sections suitable for posting (something that tripped me up during my first Fail), or thematically—one-offs are fun, but they’re really not as satisfying as something you need to devote hours to reading (Sidestep would be an extreme example) where you can play with things like backstory and character depth. So this length was kind of a compromise.

Specifically for this as a practice piece, the premise is one that could easily be expanded to what happened before and after this day-and-a-half-in-the-life-of. So some of that naturally got into the draft, hence the length, so in a way it became/becomes a matter of restraint on my part. And I think that’s good for the end readers, too, and allows them to imagine their own prologues/endings on their own. I have my own ideas just like anyone else, exactly by riffing off Tues’ Creation Myth, the only difference being I went through the trouble of writing my ideas down.

So I can think of two ways to try to handle the length:

Post the entire draft now, but marked up into possible posting sections, then go through each section sequentially. Betas would be able to read the whole thing so they know what happens for the entire piece and get an idea of overall strengths and weak points, but specific comments would be on the section up for review at the time. You’d have to think that spillover and jumping around would be unavoidable, though.

Second way would minimize that I think. Post an outline, organized by possible posting sections, then post the actual draft with those section breaks sequentially. Comments would logically be mostly on the current or prior sections released to date, but with an eye on how it will lead to an eventual wrap-up.

I’m leaning toward the second way, but would happily provide the entire draft to anyone who really needs the whole draft in front of them.

BTW, I've been to San Diego a grand total of once in my life, for Comic-con, a few years ago. So I know very little about the city outside of driving to it from Las Vegas. And the zoo. I heard about Chula Vista from watching a House Hunters episode on HGTV. So help from a native wouldn't hurt me at all.

binky

[BeMyDeputy]

Yeah, I was just thinking of Katharyn when Binky mentioned word count. It's a thing.

I could see how it would become a thing. That woman does like her words. I mean, I'm not exactly laconic, and she impresses me. With the wordiness.

I don't think marking in red to critique a fic here on the kitten would be allowed even if it was a short, short story. One of the rules. There would need to be a different, non font color/size changing, way to highlight specific things. It could be managed on the board if you were inclined to give it a go using a different method of marking. I think that would be great. If it was done off board all kitten members wouldn't benefit from the efforts, you know?

Oh, heh. I didn't literally mean marking with red. I just feel sort of like an English teacher when I'm critiquing, which makes me think 'red ink' thoughts. Plus, when I comment with MS word, it shows up in red. So, yes, being a tad metaphorical and shit. (Besides, I'm not messing with bbcode tags for font sizes/colors/etc. Just . . . no.)

Yes, we'd actually have to use quotes and strikethrough and bold and whatnot. Kludgy, but doable.


Binky,
First, I'm so glad to hear you were in grad school. Particularly for something like English lit. It makes me think "used to serious critique" thoughts. I can be, um . . . harsh? Yes, I'll say harsh. I also think things like "thank god, I can say shit like 'use the simple past here, not the past progressive,' or 'rewrite this to avoid passive voice.'" (I warn you, an English teacher beat me until I hated passive voice, and my beta beat me until shifting POVs made me dizzy.)

From your initial posting, I agree that spelling and grammar aren't likely to be much of an issue. I do have lots to say, though, so I promise that you won't get zero comments.

Of the two ways you mentioned for addressing the length . . . well, I suppose it doesn't matter, really--either you'll post the full thing or I'll ask for a draft of it. I know I want to have the whole thing in front of me when I sit down with it. My big concern with the length is how long it will take to translate comments into BBCode. Yesterday I sent out comments on two scenes that came to a total of 2000 rather well-written words, and I still made about 40 comments and as many in-line corrections/suggestions: deletions, substitutions, additions etc. (Part of that comes from the two of us having different styles, so I don't imagine she'll act on all of those.) Still, that would come out really, really long in BBCode. How long do you estimate each chunk would be? Would you do something like "this week, we're working on section 5. next week, section 6"?

I must warn you I'm not actually a San Diego native--I moved here for grad school a few years ago, and don't exactly get out much. But I do live here. (And holy shit is the zoo awesome.) By the way, if they have UCSD affiliations, they should live in La Jolla, not Chula Vista. Well, and/or can afford it. Which they presumably can if Willow's guest speaking at Brown.

In your initial post, you talked about the kinds of things that go into the compatibility between a writer and a beta. The "Sincerest Form of Flattery" thread linked in my signature is a thread I have doing rewrites of other people's stuff. (Which needs an update. I even have a piece in mind.) The discussion in the comments I think provides a good introduction to how I think about writing--word choice, POV, etc. So, if you're curious about who I am, and how I think about this sort of stuff, that's probably the best place to start. (And since each piece is in vignette territory, it's not heavy on the time-commitment front.)

-Kate

[BeMyDeputy]

After thinking and talking about idea some more, I've identified two gigantically scary words in the original description here that could be making people shy away from this prospective project.

writing sex.

For as much as we seem to write about sex here, we don't seem to write about writing about sex very much. (The thread Sex! was last active in 2006.) Despite the fact that it's a kind of writing that is both popular and challenging, writing about sex just plain doesn't get talked about much. (Even if it would be useful.)

I've only ever been on the writer's side of this equation (and am still new at that), but I think a lot of people see editing sex as a process that requires there to be a large amount of mutual trust. Or for one or both parties to just be so damned used to the fact that they're talking about sex that it doesn't phase them anymore. But dragging the process out into the open I think amplifies the blush factor.

If you look at the kinds of comments that sex scenes usually get, they aren't exactly the kind that are useful in helping you write better. They typically amount to "thud" or "now I need a shower" or "fuck, that was really hot." You don't usually get "the way that you transition from run-on sentences to sentence fragments does a good job of communicating how Willow's brain is switching off as things spice up here."

Now, I don't mean to say that the only conclusion to be drawn here is that this group beta idea wouldn't work with your piece. Or that it's a bad idea to have a group beta for a PWP piece posted--I'm sure it'd be a really useful resource. But I do think that by selecting a PWP piece for this, you've narrowed the number of people who'd be willing to say 'sign me up.'

I could be totally wrong, though.


(I know I was the last poster, but I'm pretty sure that between the time gap and the topic shift, this warranted a new post. Apologies if not.)

[binky]

First, I have to apologize. I have been busy trying to get my hustle on at my day and side jobs to raise some funds for an unexpected expense. I have not had much time to think about this or obviously move forward.

Second, I am actually glad you raised this point, since the time I've had to think about this has not been encouraging. To be frank, I've come to the same conclusion, I don't think a PWP or PWOP is a good candidate for this kind of experiment. Obviously a setup like this would require something with a plot (which this kind of has), but It's a little too specialized to those who like to read and/or write erotic fiction and can express criticism about such on a public forum, which I suspect is a minority on this board. It certainly took me a while to feel comfortable to post my own.

Not to say this idea wouldn't work for something or someone else. In fact, I think it would be a great thing to try, just not with my piece. I think I will need to work through it on my own or set it aside and just try to power through my real project (when I get the time/spirit again). If someone else would like to volunteer to have a practice piece they have lying about put up for dissection and evisceration, I would be happy to try the group beta thing (glub glub, that's a fishy paradox).

Thanks for that link, BTW. I'd forgotten about that thread--kind of took me by surprise that I actually posted in it. Interestingly enough, what I wrote then is still how I feel about PW/WOP now, so I doubt I'd get much from discussing the specialized topics smut lends itself to (language choice, the philosophy of toys).

binky

[Katharyn]

Yeah, I was just thinking of Katharyn when Binky mentioned word count. It's a thing.

I could see how it would become a thing. That woman does like her words. I mean, I'm not exactly laconic, and she impresses me. With the wordiness.

I've got a thing? I just posted in another thread about never having had a thing. Turned out I had a thing a few days ago? Though... I get the idea maybe I'm being gently teased.

Yeah, I like words. I like to count words... My new fic has 440K and growing without me posting word one yet. I've broken some of MS Word's features due to too many words... This is what Kajun is referring to LOL.

Anywho, back to the point of the thread.

It's interesting, I was asked in a survey about a month ago about how useful beta Pens was and I replied to the effect that it could've been MORE useful than it is now back in 2001/2002 etc when we had more newer writers and now we have probably a greater percentage of at least slightly 'experienced' writers but with plenty of newer ones in here too (never ceases to amaze me) What Binky is suggesting here is an interesting vision of how beta pens could come into its own again. To make it function it really needs to be used and generate views so that people check in and look... until it does though why come to beta pens? (chicken and egg anyone?...) Maybe group beta could be reinvigorating rather than this just being a lost and found for beta readers who then take it off line?

I used to do a lot of beta and benefit from it to. My wordiness today is probably growing because of not bothering with beta now (time factors stop me from being able to wait for that process plus, yeah, a bit wordy for anyone who is not sleeping with me) but when I was beta reading I did tend to be wordy there too. Done right (and I like to think I did a little of it right) beta should work irrespective of the subject matter. Even on sex. I beta read some well written - but content deficient - scenes as well as some inspiringly imaginative but badly written ones. Oh, and some great ones all around. And it should go line by line, even when not about grammar etc. However I think the conclusion you reached here is accurate. Group beta, in public, for the first time on a PWP fic? I don't think it would be the best showcase for the process or offer you, Binky, the most either. On the other hand if a group beta worked on something else then I'd argue that a PWP as a followup exercise would be more interesting... once everyone knew how it worked and had built some relationships.

I'd be interested to see how this could work as a process though.

PS - I am teasing about the wordiness. I know I am!!

Katharyn

[Trom DeGrey]

If I could jump in here... raspberryhat and I brainstormed and presented the idea for Beta Pens to the mods. We were ecstatic when they said yes. Neither of us ever could have envisioned the life it took on for itself though. It has been rather satisfying to see its continued use in one way or another. I think group beta was one of our original thoughts for the forum. It just never really took off. I posted the first part of a fic (It's in the Start Here topic) as an example of what beta work could look like. While there were a handful of comments, and I only posted one part, it was basically a group beta. It seems that now Beta Pens has become a place to brainstorm ideas and find one-on-one betas. I'm pleased to see that happening. I love the thought of a group beta'd story though. I think it allows new writers to see the process in action, and understand that it isn't as intimidating as it might seem. That's why raspberryhat and I started this in the first place. We wanted writers of every experience level to feel supported, and we wanted everyone to feel that they were putting out the best story they could possibly produce. I haven't written in years now, but I would love to see a brave soul put something out there for a group beta.

[BeMyDeputy]

Well, like I mentioned above, I have some vignette rewrites that I did as writing exercises that were never betaed. I posted them in Pens already, here, but I'd be happy to have people rip them apart as a group beta thing.

[DaddyCatALSO]

Heck, mine's here for all to see! Altho what's there is going to Pens pretty soon and I'ven't gotten to the followons much yet.

[drlloyd11]

Hey everybody. I'm a previously old writer who fell off the writing wagon a few years ago--actually, hitting the wall creatively pushed me off, and just recently decided to try to climb back on.

So, what do you think? Good idea? Bad? Does anyone think they'd be interested in this as an experimental project?

I think it sounds awesome