Creative help thread - Ask a question! Read the first Post!

[tommo]

Autumn, sometimes I get the distinct impression that none of us are as cool as we think we are. Hm.

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No metaphors...just fucking.

[Sassette]

Not me *G*



I'm pretty sure I'm >exactly< as cool as I think I am. I'm just not going to say how cool (or not cool) that is.



-Sass

[xita]

The kitten is not subject to trends or fan slang. We are unique and we like it that way, don't want this place to be like all the other places for fic out there

- - - - - - - - - - - -

"Everything is turning out so dark..."

"No, it's okay. Lost is good. Willow and I always know how to find each other!"

[juri sempai]

"She speaks with a strange evenness and selects her words a shade too precisely."



*coughs*

"I'm a blood-sucking fiend! Look at my outfit!"

[Under Her Spell]

Just to resurrect the 'what's Buffy's real name' debate, Buffy is an kind of hicksville version of Barbara. But that's doesn't mean Buffy's name is Barbara, in the same way that someone can be called Jack on their birth certificate, rather than James.



I dearly wish more fanfic writers would follow the suggestions put forward by Kamil - if they did, then I might read more fanfic. I cannot stand epithets ("the redhead", "the witch", "the wicca"). They're so utterly redundant, even more so in fanfic. I also find them very stiff, formal and impersonal, like you're defining someone solely on what colour their hair is, or what job they have.



The same goes for any cliched phrases, particularly predictable metaphors or too many similies. The other one is using two many different words for 'said'. No one needs to declaim, declare or decree, question, quiz or query every second line any longer. This isn't the 19th century. Just plain saying, asking and replying are enough, with more colourful verbs reserved for emphasis; often, you don't even need to introduce the speaker, as it's quite clear who it is. For example: Tara glanced up. "Backwards? What, now?". You know Tara's speaking here.



These are little things which are easy to root out and should be, as they only inhibit expression.



Oh yeah. "Its" refers to a thing's parts (look at its legs), but "It's" is an abbrevation for (it's over there).



Okay, I'll stop now before I do the full Creative Writing class.

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Maybe we should focus on the gobbledygook?

Tara, 'The Yoko Factor' shooting script



¦ Slain by Buffy ¦

Edited by: Under Her Spell at: 4/23/02 5:44:28 pm

[Rane018]

Funny, I find writing *Willow* or *Tara* over and over again redundant. I write *the redhead*, *the blonde*, *the wicca*, etc to not only break up the monotony but also to further illustrate and narrate.



I also agree with much of what Kamil said but everyone has their preferences. there is not one single way to write a fic (heck, i've been all over the place at times). Correct grammar and spelling is certainly a given but narrative style is personal.

[AutumnT]

Sure is Rane. Nothing wrong with personal style.

Autumn

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Buffy: I could wrestle naked in grease for a living and still be cleaner than after a shift at the Doublemeat.

Willow: Plus, I'd visit you at work every single day. --- "Normal Again" shooting script

[tommo]

You see, I notice the remark about cliched phrases, but sometimes they're really useful, in order to emphasize a point or to mock the cliche itself.



It really depends on what your own style is. And yes Rane, I totally agree with you; I tend to use all manner of pronouns for Willow and Tara. It breaks up the monotony.

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No metaphors...just fucking.

[Sassette]

Eh ... using names vs. descriptions is a toughie. Personally I use the "redhead" "wiccan" "other girl" kind of thing when I get sick of using "Willow" or "Tara". When you're writing tons and tons of girl/girl scenes, you can't really just switch to "she", y'know? I tend to think using their names over and over gets formal and stilted. *shrug*



-Sass

[Katharyn]

As someone well qualified to talk about monotony*S* I think that there is a case for the pronouns. It is all personal style of course and we are in the slightly envious position of having two such wonderfully defined characters here. We know who Willow and Tara are, what they look like. Whilst here "the redhead" might be redundant in the wider world of writing that is not necessarily the case. Sass's point about "she" when writing all f scenes (perhaps more than just W/T) is well made. That can get very confusing and the names get repetitive to me.



Using little hints like that can widen the visualisation of the character without having to delve into lengthy, "She wore this, she had red hair almost the colour of..." before you can get a word in...



It is a matter of personal style IMHO and as someone who has a *reputation* for not having so much dialogue in fic I still find it suits me better to avoid endless "Willow saids." Whilst it might not be necessary to the reader to have something else there it is necessary for me... I don't want to be bored by what/how I am writing... So after all that... personal style.



Spelling and grammar is a given. Get a beta reader - you as a writer are too close to see the wood for the trees. Then you write what/how you like. The responses you get here on pens will point you in the right direction thereafter but no one should try to adopt a style that doesn't suit them. It rings false IMHO. Everyone talks, thinks and hence writes differently...



Katharyn

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You hear that baby? I am going nowhere.

Edited by: Katharyn at: 4/23/02 10:35:41 pm

[Zahir al Daoud]

These are kinda minor, but I believe in them...



Vary the length and complexity of your sentences and paragraphs. I go another step further, trying not to begin any two sentences with the same letter.



Along those lines, characters with similar names cause problems with readers (or so I believe). Buffy in general doesn't have this problem, but then Fred and Faith haven't had much to do with each other.



Personally, I like to write from a specific number of people's points of view. NEVER THE TWAIN? was nearly all from either Willow or Tara's p.o.v. That was deliberate. FROM CHILDHOOD'S HOUR is/will be entirely from Willow, Tara, Faith and Lilah's p.o.v.



I'd also recommend the books CHARACTER AND VIEWPOINT by Orson Scott Card, as well as ON WRITING by Stephen King.



JMHO

[Katharyn]

A big second for "On Writing" here whioch has the added benefit of being a damn fine read in its own right and written by someone who has been enormously successful as a writer. King knows what people like... or at least people like King.



Though I never could crack his rule of redraft... he reckons get 10% LESS words from redraft I am lucky if I keep it to 10% MORE!



Katharyn

You hear that baby? I am going nowhere.

[expresswaytoyrskull]

What I'd suggest is for people to be more colloquial in writing, to use more of the character's voice, even if it's not first person. I think you can get too hung up on trying to write how good writers are supposed to write - when in fact most good writers are very offbeat and unconventional.



As for pronouns and nouns - I think there are some epitaths that work. Although 'Tara looked at the redhead' still sounds impersonal to me (not unlike 'Tara looked at the lamp'), 'Tara looked at her redhead', however, is very different.



But I suppose in the end of the day, fan fiction is different from just plain fiction - it's what happens in the story which is most important, I think. Content over style.

[tommo]

Colloquialisms are perhaps more important in Buffy fanfic than other types of writing. The characters in Buffy have a very distinct way of talking and some of them have their own kind of vocabulary that they employ on occasion.



But you probably already knew that so I will shut up. Heh. It's just you know, I'm British and it's taken me two years to come close to emulating that kind of talk. So um, so there.

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No metaphors...just fucking.

[Katharyn]

Treat your beta reader right... talking from both sides of the fence here but not referring to anyone on this board (except in the good things that they have done for me!)



1) Establish in advance what you are looking for. If you don't tell a beta reader then you are likely to either get just "Pretty Good" or they will double the length of your fic with comments. Give them guidance regarding what you need of spelling, puntuation, grammar concerns. Do you want help with plotting? If so they need to know where you are going. Characterisation? Many people on Pens have an excellent handle on standrd Buffy characters... not to mention W/T.



2) Warn your beta reader of what sort of things cause you problems. Concerned about a particular character... ? Tell them.



3) Feedback on their feedback. They are interested enough to read your fic and do you this service. You can be interested enough to respond to their questions. Also if they suggest wholesale changes then explain why that is NOT what you want to do.



4) Remember that you know the version of your characters that you are using best. It is easy to get swept away with beta reader enthusiasm for changes. If you have a reason to stick with something do and tell them why.



5) Despite number 4... bear in mind that you are very close to your characters and situations. You probably know the whole picture. The beta reader approaches it from a fresh perspective. Be prepared to step back and see that perspective and they will show you what does not work as you hoped... or what makes no sense without knowing that in 15 parts something is going to happen. You know... but the reader will not. Listen to the beta reader in this regard.



6) It is easier to see something is wrong than it is to put it right. That is why you have to do the writing work. Bear this in mind if the beta reader sends you back a load of problems... that is what they are there for but hopefully they should also be telling what works and why too... and summing it at the end. If they don't then ask them too.



More later if I think of any.



Katharyn

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You hear that baby? I am going nowhere.

[tommo]

Don't know if this has been covered yet, but two points that occurred to me...



Originals - be very careful with original characters. Stories that are about Willow and Tara should always be about Willow and Tara, despite a great idea for an original character you might have. They should be great secondary characters; which, if written well enough, should be as memorable as the central pair.



S.I. - ack! The dreaded Self Insertion. A word of advice; it's really kind of tacky.

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No metaphors...just fucking.

[Katharyn]

Self-Insertion Ruth??



Oh you mean putting yourself in the story... right...



I thought you meant something else there for a minute*S* And yeah definitely "Ack"



Katharyn

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You hear that baby? I am going nowhere.

[tommo]

Katharyn, bad girl. I should be all haughty and offended but dammit, a bit of self-insertion would be lovely right about now. Ahem.

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No metaphors...just fucking.

[AutumnT]

And once again. Another thread corrupted.

Autumn

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Buffy: I could wrestle naked in grease for a living and still be cleaner than after a shift at the Doublemeat.

Willow: Plus, I'd visit you at work every single day. --- "Normal Again" shooting script

[Sassette]

I'm just amused that all this "self-insertion" talk is going under a subject line involving "Rules-of-Thumb"



-Sass

______________________________________

I Think The Hellmouth Tastes Like Chicken -- Autumn

[tommo]

Well Sassette, thumbs are important. Ahem.

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No metaphors...just fucking.

[Sassette]

Well, yeah ... losing track of thumbs is just ... wrong. Very wrong. Muchly of the wrong. *nods seriously*



-Sass

______________________________________

I Think The Hellmouth Tastes Like Chicken -- Autumn

[Under Her Spell]

LOL! I was going to make some incisive comments, but I've completely forgotten what I was going to say now!

-------------

Maybe we should focus on the gobbledygook?

Tara, 'The Yoko Factor' shooting script



¦ Slain by Buffy ¦

[Katharyn]

Did I do this?



I really did didn't I....



Okay back to the actual point of the thread*S* Thumbs... oh no wait, errr...



Read your fic aloud. Or at least under your breath if aloud is going to embarrass you. That will show you where sentences are too long, how well you speech is working and whether you are tying yourself in knots.





Katharyn

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You hear that baby? I am going nowhere.

[Sassette]

Yes, Katharyn ... this was ALL you. Well, and a few other people ... but mostly you.



However, back on topic .... reading your stuff out loud - great suggestion. Lots of people can spot awkward sentences when they hear it that look find when they read it.



And it a little something to add ... anyone who wants to learn to write should READ. And then, of course, practice, practice, practice.



-Sass

[tommo]

Another tip for writing Willow and Tara...watch the show. Watch the show. And uh, watch the show. It's the only way you'll get a handle on their characters.

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No metaphors...just fucking.

[Katharyn]

Just to add to Ruth's tip about watching the show.

Watch all of their shows... and make sure that the time that you set the story in corresponds with the W/T you present. S6 Tara, for an extreme example, is clearly far more sure of herself than nervous Tara from "Hush." Sometimes it is easy to take a snapshot of them and place that in any given time. It doesn't work IMHO unless you have a special purpose or AU going.



Katharyn

You hear that baby? I am going nowhere.

[jessan15]

Um, okay this is stupid, but I can't figure out how to find out else where on line....



How does the state of California handle the distribution of hard liquors and malt beverages?



I live in PA and we have beer distributors and state run liquor stores....



I know some places you can buy things in convenience stores and supermarkets...



Anyone? Bueller?



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Love Will Find a Way

[Sassette]

Convenience stores, supermarkets, liquor stores, bars ... alcohol is readily available for those with a proper state-issued ID. And, ummm ... sometimes other people, too. Not that I would know about that.



-Sass

______________________________________

I Think The Hellmouth Tastes Like Chicken -- Autumn

[jessan15]

Thanks Sass...



And I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about...not that I have ever illegally obtained alcohol for minors in my life....cause that would be like...illegal.



And wrong.



*hysterical laughter*



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Love Will Find a Way