Now prepare yourself

[Artemisia]

I found this at this lovely quote at the feminist majority foundation about another sick yankie wacko & as it is BTVS related(witches) & well ot, i thought you would find it infurating, but informative. know thy enemies that you may guard against them.
*
In response to the beheading of three men in Saudi Arabia charged with committing homosexual acts, anti-abortion extremist Michael Bray, a convicted clinic bomber and leader of the violent clandestine group Army of God, posted a message on the Army of God website praising Saudi justice. “While the Christians among us westerners would decline to emulate our Muslim friends in many ways,” said Bray, “we can appreciate the justice they advocate regarding sodomy.” Bray continued, “Might these fellows also consider an embryonic jihad? Let us welcome these tools of purification. Open the borders! Bring in some agents of cleansing.” Bray then accelerated his violent rhetoric, suggesting that he wanted to see “the heads of adulterers, sodomites, murders, child murders (abortionists), witches, traitors, and kidnappers roll” in our own country. Bray’s statements appear as a call to build an alliance with Islamic fundamentalists, who target the same groups as U.S. Christian fundamentalists, sometimes called Christian Reconstructionists, including the Army of God.

(somehow being hated by this kind of person is a compliment, god forbid such a person admirered you)
(the article continues:
Our homegrown groups may also have similar goals to Islamic fundamentalists – the creation of societies based on extremist so-called religious teachings. Believing that the Bible should be the basis of government, education, and law, Reconstructionists envision an extremist society in which public schools, most social service programs, and welfare would be obliterated. According to Reconstructionist belief, the Bible allows the death penalty for crimes including homosexuality, abortion, adultery, child disobedience, and witchcraft. Acceptable forms of capital punishment supposedly outlined in the Bible include burning, stoning, and hanging. Slavery is also acceptable, according to Reconstructionists who claim that the Bible does not outlaw all of its methods.

“At this time, both global and domestic terrorism must come into focus,” said Feminist Majority Foundation President Eleanor Smeal. “More must be done to combat domestic terrorists like the Army of God who have long been targeting feminists, gays and lesbians, and ethnic and religious minorities in addition to abortion providers and reproductive health clinics.”)
^from feminist.org)

[silverangel]

Normally I'm all about people being entitled to their own opinion, but that's just wrong! And violent! Geez, what did we ever do to him? I finish my comment with a very loud and insistent "GRRR".

------------------
Willow and Tara's Love

[La]

It makes me angry and sad whenever people think that violence is an answer. To anything. How can violence help us achieve a peaceful society? I'll second your GRRRR and add an ARGH!

~La

------------------
Taree: ah'm, yo' know...
Willer: Whut in tarnation?
Taree: Yourn...

[Wolfie]

Well, it's good to see the religious rights of this world embracing each other...

Seriously, though (I say seriously, but I read stuff like this and I struggle not to burst out laughing), unless you're about to tell me something really disturbing about the good old US of A, a group of incarcerated nutters shouting for a little attention, shouldn't be allowed to disturb you Stateside kitties. I know you've got a lot of intolerance to deal with in certain states and such (not that the UK is any better at times, I feel), and there are places where the Kenneth Hams and Michael Brays of this world actually seem to be taken seriously, and even seem to be able to influence law, but don't forget y'all have a voice, too. And your voice will ultimately prove the stronger, I feel, as yours is one that stands for love and acceptance, and (look how uncynical I'm being!), isn't that what everyone wants, ultimately? To be loved and accepted? I know I could shrug my shoulders and mutter "I'm across the pond - therefore it doesn't affect me", but I don't. What effects you all effects me, because a community is a community, and from the moment I joined this board, I joined this community, so don't think I'm just blinkering my sight, and going "la, la, la," when I say this:

Don't let scat-munchers like this bloke stop you from having a nice day. They're just scared of you, because you represent the future, and they're getting left behind. And they're also feeling sore, 'cause they didn't get a teddy when they were five, or whatever. You are bigger than them. Better. More beautiful. Kinder. Wiser. Need I go on?

Good Lord, it's not even eight in the morning and I'm ranting.

*Wolfie gives a biiiiiiiiiiiig hug to all kitties to show how much he loves every last one of them*.

------------------
I am the sunlight on the sides of houses.

[This message has been edited by Wolfie (edited February 21, 2002).]

[tyche]

Y'know, the more stuff like this I read, the more I think that John Aravosis was spot on when he described the religious right as "America's Taliban".
Grrr.

------------------
MAYHEM CAUSED. Monsters certainly not involved, officials say. - Headline on Xander's newspaper in 'OMWF'
TARA: Oh mah god, cuss it all t' tarnation. ah's cured! Fry mah hide! ah's hankerin' th' fellas! - Tara in 'speaks redneck' revelation.

[Neonwicca]

Wow...can't you just feel the Christian love emanating from that guy? I feel it.

I'm gonna have to take my copy of the bible back, cos it seems to be riddled with errors; it's full of quotes by this guy called Jesus, saying that we should all love each other and that harming another human being is a terrible sin.

I demand a refund!

[kitten scout]

What ever happened to treating others the way you want to be treated?

[mariacomet]

I am going to put my neck on the line here and be something of a dissenting opinion.

The religious right disagrees with the homosexual community and they disagree with abortion. But that is a far cry from everyone in the religious right wanting those they disagree with to be brought into the street and killed.

To make that comparison is to draw a parrell between all muslins and the Taliban and to hold ALL muslins responsible for Sept 11.

The Gay and Lesbian community is one that wants and demands respect for themselves as individuals, as well as a community. The main message that we say over and over is that we want to be looked at for ourselves, for our own abilities, and to be treated equally. The same rights, no matter what race, creed, gender or sexual orientation. To condemm any other group solely for what they think and feel would be hypocritical.

Anyone that encourages, supports, fosters and does violence is a criminal. Period.

The problem is not with christians. The problem is not with muslims. The problem is with anyone that feels that they have a right to beat into submission and/or kill anyone that disagrees with them.

A little of mine own experience - I'm a christian and I'm a conservative republican. I'm also a lesbian. I cannot begin to tell you the amount of anger that people begin to exhibit towards me just by making the first two admissions. I don't mean that I walk up to folks and start handing out bibles, I mean that I simply say 'Well, er...I'm a christian." That's all it takes. BAMM.
Sneers and jeers from everywhere. And sometimes heated attacks. For uttering four words. It doesn't seem to matter how mild and non confrontive my opinion is. After all, how dare I not follow the masses of the overall gay community.

There are Hypocrites in any and every group you could possibly name. We all are one, from time to time. Christians are not the enemy. Some may be uneducated and foolish. You may, if you wish, certainly apply that same accusation against the religious right.

But someone saying, "I don't agree with gay marriages," is a far cry from someone taking a gun and killing two gays that are about to be married. The first example can be reasoned with, rallied against, voted against and generally talked out. The latter example has no reason, no conscience and no room for reneogiation. It is offensively final and it robs us of life. It is the enemy of us ALL.

[Hemiola]

While I see the point you are trying to make, mariacomet, rantings such as those vomited out by this individual just confirm the things I have previously posted about ALL fundamentalists, regardless of the religion they profess: all of them are--
1. frightened
and
2. angry
No matter whether they be Christians, Jews, Muslims or Hindus, all fundamentalists are terrified of the modern world. It is confusing, chaotic, and not at all in conformity with their scriptures. Indeed, the very existence of so many persons who do not acknowledge the authority of their particular scriptures infuriates them, for are these scriptures not "divine truth"?
And if they are "divinely true", what must be done to those who just will not be persuaded of their truthfulness? Why, they must be eliminated, of course.
It's all too easy for the numbing fear and uncontrolled rage of these people to lead them to violence. As far as fundamentalist thinkers are concerned, it's not a matter of their believing that they are right, it's a matter of their believing that they cannot possibly be wrong!

[delany]

ah yes Hemiola, i see where you are comming from. but i agree with MC.
just because you are involved with a religion does not mean that you are a fundamentalist. i am a practicing christian and i for one do not condone those acts. i also personally know of fundamentalist who know my current sexuality, and treat me like a sister. how they personally feel about it, i don't know and i don't think i ever will, but that dosen't matter to me. what matters to me is that they see me as a person and treat me like a person who should be treated. they may see my homosexuality as a flaw but so long as they still love me like a human being..hey, each to his/her own.
its not fundamentalists that worry me. its the ones who cannot adapt and evolve to live in the present environment, be they fundamentalists or not.
take my parents, they are roman catholic (not fundamentalists) and if they ever found out about anyone living in their house being gay i would be out of there like a rotten egg. not just me. seeing gay people of telly even (i watch buffy alone) makes them curse gay people and say that all of them are grose and make them sick.

so lets not shoot the fundamentalists eh?
everyone has the right believe what they want to believe. but no one has the right to judge, or place themselves above another human.

[Kieli]

Funny how a majority of Christendom does exactly that by pontificating on how much better they are than non-Christians and going into countries that are deliberately anti-Christian to attempt to "convert" and "save" those people (i.e. those two nutcase women who went into Afghanistan who claim they weren't preaching the Word of God to Muslim women...ahem..never knew a Christian missionary that went into a foreign country that didn't, IMHO)

But maria and del are right to a point...they forget however, that people have acquired their reactionist attitudes to those simple little words because the Christians that oppose the fundamentalists haven't quite reached the hue and cry of the rabid radical right so their dissent has not been heard by the majority. Thus, it seems to those of us non-Christians that they don't care enough to set these people straight and say "Hey, we're Christian, some of use are indeed queer and we don't approve of you all lumping us in with your fundamentalist views and methodologies." Too bad, though. It always seems that the best don't get heard enough and the worst get heard far more often than we want them to.

heh, speaking as an atheist though, I would be very happy if I never heard anything about religion at all...but, to each their own.

K.

------------------
"Sometimes, we just can't make it on our own. We all need someone to love us, to help remind us that there's good in the world, to keep us from going crazy."

Willow from Dacia's The Dreamer Awakes

[This message has been edited by Kieli (edited February 21, 2002).]

[Kakamabee]

But that is too wrong. I mean that violates our rights of beliefs.This is sick. Sorry i just need to post these cuz i am out of words.

Amendment [IV.]
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Amendment [XIX].
The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of sex.

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<Xander>
"HEY LADY SHE WHO SMELT IT DELT IT!"," so it's like a a giant poltergasm"

,-._,-.
\/)"(\/
(_o_) ruff!!!!!!
/ \/
(| | | |)
oo-oo
Kakamabee :r

[mariacomet]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hemiola:
As far as fundamentalist thinkers are concerned, it's not a matter of their believing that they are right, it's a matter of their believing that they cannot possibly be wrong!

---

How deeply you believe something is a matter of personal preference.

Another personal example, to illustrate the point - I am pretty adamant about handicap parking spaces. I think if you are not handicap, regardless of how many there are or if there is anyone who EVER uses the spot - you shouldn't be using the space. I think the people that do are wrong.

Does that mean that I want explosives set up on any car that DOES use the spaces wrongfully. Absoultely not. Thinking something is wrong does not mean that you support the ulimate punishment. It may be judgemental, but I don't agree that all fundemental believes are based in fear or even call for violent reactionary action.

As for the past of christians...yes, it's dark. No doubt about it. The past of many nations, cultures and religions are dark. But at what point do we stop judging people soley on what they are labled or what group dynamic they represent and start reacting to who they actually are and what they actually do?

The 'we'll respect them when they show us they respect us' argument only goes so far. Someone has to take the iniative.
quote:

[Zahir]

Like MC, I've gotten plenty of grief because I'm a Christian and say so. Usually, the assumption is that because I'm a Christian this means I ultra-right-wing. What's been especially galling is when I tell people I'm Christian, tell them I'm don't agree with (for example) Pat Buchanan or Jerry Fallwell, and the same people look me straight in the face and say how they hate all Christians because we're so intolerant.

I think it was Voltaire who said "God made man in his own image. Man, being a gentleman, returned the favor." While yes, there are many utterly appalling beliefs and practices done in the name of religion (I'd try to list them but according to modern statistics I only have about four more decades left--not enough time), a person's faith is more usually an espression of character. Nice, generous people worship nice, generous gods. Brilliant intellectuals picture god as a brilliant intellectual. And if someone is angry, frightened and eager to kill, then is it any surprise they imagine god to be angry, frightened and eager to kill?

------------------
"O let my name be in the Book of Love.
If it be there, I care not of
That other book Above...
Strike it out! Or write it in anew.
But let it be in the Book of Love!"
--Omar Kyam

[Xanadu]

I agree Zahir and MC, it's hard when people immediately assume they know what you believe on every subject just because you state what religion you are. At the same time I know how easy it is to simply decide to dislike a group of people because of repeated offences.

I grew up in a very religious family and was a member of a very conservative christian church. My entire life I have heard from people there how bad homosexuality is, among other things. In high school this became a big issue for me because my best friend was gay, and I refused to believe he was going to be damned for all enternity because he liked guys.
At the time I quit going to church and decided I hated all Christians, they were intolerant, ignorant, etc. It's much easier to do that then to have to pick through the crowd and find out what everyone's separate beliefs are.
Unfortunatly, just because it's easier doesn't make it the right way to go about things. The Christian religion still infuriates me at times, but I try not to judge all christians on the actions of some.

Amy

[This message has been edited by Xanadu (edited February 21, 2002).]

[Kieli]

IMHO, the Kitten really isn't the place to expound on religion or religious beliefs since precious few will ever totally agree on anything and, I've noticed, things can get fairly heated in short order. As MC can tell you, I have really strong opinions about religion, Christians and religiousity in general. Evil is as evil does, whether it be under the Banner of Christ or the Flag of the Anti-Christ...humans are deeply flawed. I hope the mods step in on this one rather quickly before things get said that are perhaps not meant to be.

------------------
"Sometimes, we just can't make it on our own. We all need someone to love us, to help remind us that there's good in the world, to keep us from going crazy."

Willow from Dacia's The Dreamer Awakes

[Epicurus]

I hate having discussions on religion, with a passion, BUT I do enjoy reading them. Especially when it is between seemingly (cause I don't know any of you posters personally to judge for myself) intelligent people.
I think just because people will never agree on something does not mean that they shouldn't discuss it.

[Kieli]

Epi:

The problem is that, with discussion, invariably someone will get insulted or offended by another's opinion or what another says. That, IMHO, is where the problem lies. We could start a firestorm of controversy and debate on a subject that is a fairly moot one because it all hinges on individual belief or choice. Ergo, not much would get accomplished except maybe a few pissed off posters and some very intelligent points occasionally. I remember a certain topic where I expressed my deep dislike and disdain for religion and had to delete the post because it "offended" someone. Thus, true discussion and open forum for this topic can not truly be had. At least, that is my opinion based on observations of similar topics posted here in the past.

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"Sometimes, we just can't make it on our own. We all need someone to love us, to help remind us that there's good in the world, to keep us from going crazy."

Willow from Dacia's The Dreamer Awakes

[Epicurus]

Arguments can and do happen with every single topic. I just don't believe in taking preventive measures because someone might get insulted.
Now, I do see where you are coming from. I figure with such an intense topic like religion, if posters step in the ring they have to realize that they might get a few black eyes in the process. Feeling insulted or offended is just a consequence of reading or partaking in such discussions.

[jitterbug]

Everyone has made good points,and intelligent ones...just wanted to add my own thoughts and feelings,etc.
I am bisexual,I am a Christian,and I am 16 years old and living with both of my parents who take every opportunity to remind anyone who will listen how disgusting homosexuality is,because 'God says so.' I could debate that point itself,but that's neither here nor there. My point here is that I am a CHRISTIAN,because i follow the teachings of CHRIST (not all those of,say Moses or Paul) and HE said to love EVERYONE,to the extent of stopping a prostitute from being stoned. (If anyone is familiar,the quote comes from that story,"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.") Every religion is extremely intricate,having different layers of belief,practice,etc.,and if we are all intelligent people here (and I think that we are) then we can disregard someone's label of religion and just treat them as a person.
In other words,only judge people by their actions,not by extremely generalized labels.

[Kieli]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Epicurus:
Arguments can and do happen with every single topic. I just don't believe in taking preventive measures because someone might get insulted.

---

I agree...but there have been times that the mods have felt otherwise..only this is my point. I don't mind debating with the next person...but I have had my chain yanked a time or two on this very subject and think that this forum may or may not be the place for such a very sensitivediscussion/topic.

In any case, I'm keeping my mouth shut on the whole deal. I'm not Christian, so I'm of the opinion that atheism has its merits.

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"Sometimes, we just can't make it on our own. We all need someone to love us, to help remind us that there's good in the world, to keep us from going crazy."

Willow from Dacia's The Dreamer Awakesquote:

[Zahir]

Well, I am a Christian and I too am of the opinion that atheism has its merits. So there.

sorrycouldn'tresist...

------------------
"O let my name be in the Book of Love.
If it be there, I care not of
That other book Above...
Strike it out! Or write it in anew.
But let it be in the Book of Love!"
--Omar Kyam

[Kieli]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zahir:
Well, I am a Christian and I too am of the opinion that atheism has its merits. So there.

sorrycouldn'tresist...

---

*chuckle* That's ok, Zah....I know that you're itching to get on my case so it was expected....we can have this conversation in IM or emails if you like

------------------
"Sometimes, we just can't make it on our own. We all need someone to love us, to help remind us that there's good in the world, to keep us from going crazy."

Willow from Dacia's The Dreamer Awakesquote:

[BBOvenGuy]

tiptoe... through the landmines... c'mon, everybody sing along!

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kieli:
people have acquired their reactionist attitudes to those simple little words because the Christians that oppose the fundamentalists haven't quite reached the hue and cry of the rabid radical right so their dissent has not been heard by the majority. Thus, it seems to those of us non-Christians that they don't care enough to set these people straight and say "Hey, we're Christian, some of use are indeed queer and we don't approve of you all lumping us in with your fundamentalist views and methodologies."

---

I think the difference between the right-wing Christians and the more socially liberal Christians is in the interpretation of the Biblical command, "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations." [Matthew 28:19] Throughout history fundamentalists have always taken a more literal approach to that instruction, which can result in something annoying but relatively benign like a Campus Crusade sales pitch, or it can result in something really inhumanly cruel like the Spanish Inquisition. Christians with a more liberal social or political attitude prefer to communicate their message through their work to improve society, and in that context they may only mention God rarely or even not at all.

My church made it onto CNN Headline News in 1991 when we started blessing same-sex unions. And do you know how we managed to do that? The camera crews came out to film the fundamentalist protesters who were picketing the church.

On this board, I've never hidden the fact that I'm a Christian who goes to a church that is open and accepting toward the gay community. I sing in a choir that has a gay Director and Assistant Director and half the men are gay (but only one of the women is a lesbian, which is something I've never figured out - I know lesbians can sing...). The staff of priests includes a lesbian couple, and several members of the lay ministry are gay as well. We take stances on a lot of other social and political issues that you might not expect from a Christian church, too, but I'll spare you the laundry list.

We're out there. I know my church isn't alone in this world. In the eyes of the TV news producers, though, we're just not as sexy as people waving ugly signs and setting off bombs at abortion clinics.

------------------
Remember the Kitten Board Mantra: "Joss is nuts about Tara, Willow/Tara and Amber!"
(...and Marti's rather fond of them, too...)

[This message has been edited by BBOvenGuy (edited February 21, 2002).]quote:

[Dazey]

I think Toni's right, in general this sort of discussion is not appropriate for the Kitten...there are plenty of places on the internet to get involved in heated debates about religion. This ain't one of 'em.

However I did want to thank Zahir for saying this:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zahir:
faith is more usually an espression of character. Nice, generous people worship nice, generous gods. Brilliant intellectuals picture god as a brilliant intellectual. And if someone is angry, frightened and eager to kill, then is it any surprise they imagine god to be angry, frightened and eager to kill?

---

I'd never quite thought about it in that way, and you're obviously right. And I can appreciate the grief you get for saying you're a Christian...I don't talk about my faith that much but when I do I always say that I am a Catholic rather than a Christian, in hopes of somewhat mitigating the grief I am sure to get (especially if I add, and I usually do, that I am also queer and a feminist). I am saddened and ashamed by this, by the fact that the name of Christ has been so sullied that I sometimes choose not to speak it.

Oh, one thing I did want to point out in the interest of being pedantic, which hey I am always interested in, and because this board is about two witches: those who persecute witches usually use the Bible verse "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" as their rallying cry. As I understand it, the Vulgate Bible (the Latin version translated from the original languages) has the noun venificor, "poisoner," in this verse. When the King James version was being prepared, James I himself ordered that maleficor, "witch," be substituted. So, y'know, he could be all justified in killing witches and stuff. Great guy.quote:

[Kieli]

While everyone does make some interesting points, sadly, it seems that those who do not espouse the more radical (and IMHO somewhat insane) views of "Christians" do not get majority status. And I have to ask, "Why is this??" and more importantly, why, when the media or any other self-righteous, "Let me tell you what you need to know" informational group says they have taken polls, why precious few are indignant that they are being misrepresented? Eh, bloody hell, breaking my own rule. I'm shutting up now...two things I think friends should never discuss, religion and politics. Always comes to a bad end...leaving this thread in more capable hands.

*Bear hugs* to everyone and especial warm hugs to MC, David, Jenny and Bob.

*poofs back into the nothingness from which she was spawned*

------------------
"Sometimes, we just can't make it on our own. We all need someone to love us, to help remind us that there's good in the world, to keep us from going crazy."

Willow from Dacia's The Dreamer Awakes

[xita]

I am having a hard time deciding what the topic of this thread is, but I do know that the rest of the discussion is off topic. So either discuss the the article on the first post or take it to the daily thread, otherwise, the thread will be closed.

[BabyWillow81]

Violence is never the answer!!!!
And if they trialed me under these laws my head would be lopped off not once but TWICE!!

Reason #1

Hello soooooooo GAY now!

Reason#2

Wiccan here

You know i used to like to say "Heads will roll" , but even saying it jokingly now..I think would somehow make me naughtious.

Too bad we couldnt just hex his mouth like amy the rats mother did to that cheerleader in S1 ep2 the witch...he he he.

That would be agood solution to this problem No more mouth ,no more spreading of this insane head chopping violence!!

------------------
When the officer says

"Gee mam.....Your eyes look red, Have you been drinking?"

You probably shouldn't respond with,

"Gee officer your eyes look glazed, have you been eating doughnuts?"

Trust me its a very very bad idea.......

[This message has been edited by BabyWillow81 (edited February 22, 2002).]

[Mr_A24]

In response to Mr. Bray's opinion I'll play the devil's advocate > and say that at least he's honest about what he thinks and will hate us to our faces. There are so many straight people who just do to your back.

[Dr.G]

I find it very hard to see anything positive in this at all, especially as his kind of statements may induce some of those people who just hate us behind our backs now to bash in our heads as well next time.