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General Season 6 Spoilers - Part 5 - The Black Hole

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General Season 6 Spoilers - Part 5 - The Black Hole

Postby judy » Fri Jan 18, 2002 11:25 pm

Better late than never...

*SMOOCHES* and *SNOGS* Dr. G for inspiring this new thread!

I like the word snog.

I like the new spoilers provided courtesy of AnGeLX.

I like that Tara is not in Ep 15.

I like that Tara does some magic.

I like all stories about Faith/ED sightings.

I like promises of darkness (sorry, shoot me, but I am angst girl)... unless it's the kind that would make kitties' heads explode in grief and rage.

I like that Willow's recovery will not be Lifetime Movie of the Week-esque, but full of the stops and starts that characterize so many difficult, growth related struggles and journeys.

I don't like the stench of testosterone suddenly wafting through the board in the manner of chest beating and taunting.

Good night. *SMOOCHES* and *SNOGS* Dr. G for inspiring this new thread! *SMOOCHES* and *SNOGS* Dr. G for inspiring this new thread!

judy
 


General Season 6 Spoilers - Part 5 - The Black Hole

Postby Dr.G » Fri Jan 18, 2002 11:34 pm

Oh Judy my dear, *you* were the inspiration, I merely suggested it to Xita who did everything else, but I *will* take the big green fonted snog and run with it.
Dr.G
 


General Season 6 Spoilers - Part 5 - The Black Hole

Postby morgan1707 » Fri Jan 18, 2002 11:55 pm

quote:
Originally posted by BBOvenGuy:
Besides, it's Xander's and Anya's turn to have some "fun" now.

I completely agree; Xander and Anya were made for angst. I hope they get plenty of it. They've had a relatively easy ride of it as of late, but I hope the latter part of the Season shows the relationship at different angles. The wedding is going to be a riot. I hope.

Just out of interest, does anyone think the Season could get any darker?

I've only seen three episodes, and ready I can feel myself reaching for the prozac all ready...quote:

morgan1707
 


General Season 6 Spoilers - Part 5 - The Black Hole

Postby xita » Sat Jan 19, 2002 12:01 am

I am hoping ep 13 is as bad as it gets. I just don't think I could take much more than that, it's going to be hard to watch that.
xita
 


General Season 6 Spoilers - Part 5 - The Black Hole

Postby Popje » Sat Jan 19, 2002 12:31 am

I'm probably in the minority but I haven't seen this season as more dark than previous seasons. It's been "more real" and it's more internally focused in that the emotions and confusions the Scoobies are showing, makes me (and probably others) more uncomfortable. But I'm not finding the show scary like "Hush" or distressing like "the Body". It's more unsettling...seeing our faves showing off their darker sides.

This is a bit long, but here's highlights of the "dark side"...
Buffy has always not liked her Slayer responsibilities, but she's never neglected them, like she seems to be doing, or behaved selfishly or guiltily like she is at present in the way she's not taking responsibility for Dawn, and fooling around with Spike.

Then there's Willow, whose been the one with witty quips, and geeking out and standing by her friends. But this year, she's shown how her immaturity mixed with her power leads her to hurt her loved ones and act selfishly.

Xander - we've not seen his arc yet, but it's been pointed out. He's got the job, he's got the fiance. But he's freaked by this "normalcy" and responsibility. We'll see that play out soon.

Dawn - she's hardly recovered from losing her mom, and now her sister's come back, but somehow different, and not as a parental role. She's taken to stealing from those around her. Trying to give herself a silent dangerousness? Making up for attention not paid her? We've not seen her break out, but she's having maybe to grow up too fast. First as the key (knowing she could destroy the world) losing her loved ones, and now seeing her role models not behaving well (Willow, Tara)

Spike - well he's acting like Spike.

Tara - well she's the only one that seems to be looking like she's got sensible maturity. She seems cast in the "teacher" role and this could be bad for her...
I guess my speculations on how this season will have a "dark climax" depends on how dark ME plans to go...

Popje

Popje
 


General Season 6 Spoilers - Part 5 - The Black Hole

Postby miss_spangles » Sat Jan 19, 2002 12:34 am

If people have actual confirmation that tara is going to be killed off, then I wish that they would just say the how and the why. That's all. I sincerely hope it isn't going to happen but i am sick of constantly hearing that she's going to die but never hearing any clarification on how this supposed plot is going to unfold. I think we're pretty sick of unsubstantiated rumours. Edited to say: same thing goes for Willow being the big bad. I don't want to constantly hear just this, if people are going to say it, i wish they'd provide some sort of detail, etc.

[This message has been edited by miss_spangles (edited January 19, 2002).]

miss_spangles
 


General Season 6 Spoilers - Part 5 - The Black Hole

Postby Dr.G » Sat Jan 19, 2002 12:43 am

I know miss_spangles, the first post of the thread makes it clear as well. Lets just look at the goodies AngelX has brought us.
Dr.G
 


General Season 6 Spoilers - Part 5 - The Black Hole

Postby Popje » Sat Jan 19, 2002 12:45 am

I agree Miss_spangles. I am so getting over spoilers...I think I just may quit, go cold turkey and head over to the "non-spoiler thread".
Popje
 


General Season 6 Spoilers - Part 5 - The Black Hole

Postby xita » Sat Jan 19, 2002 12:49 am

Ignore the taunting, it's fascinating to me that after starting this thread basically saying don't post unless you have something new to add, people do it. There is nothing new, just remember up to ep 16, no one has anything (such as a script) beyond that. no one. Ignore and move on kitties.

I stand by my commitment to keep this thread on topic, say something new and it is welcomed!

[This message has been edited by xita (edited January 19, 2002).]

xita
 


General Season 6 Spoilers - Part 5 - The Black Hole

Postby miss_spangles » Sat Jan 19, 2002 12:56 am

Thanks everyone for the reassurance. AngelX has been great this season - coming by with detailed information that has constantly been correct. Also, BB Oven guy, Autumn T, Gift of Amber, etc. clearly have information, which they provide. I'm really grateful for this. In fact, these people got a shout out on the spoiler slayer site for their accuracy. If any of these people stopped by and said, in their usual detailed way, that they had received or seen material which indicated that Tara was in trouble or that Willow was becoming bad, I would seriously prepare myself for the worst.

But I am just not going to listen to anyone else who just says "tara's going to die" or "willow's going to go evil." I am so, so sick of this whole thing. What's going to happen when the season ends? Will people just say that really awful things are going to happen to Willow and Tara for the whole of season seven too?

Sorry, I know this has been a rant, but after spending the whole season hearing this stuff with no details, etc. I have had enough.

I'm really grateful and appreciative to all the others on this board who feel the same way.

Edited to say: so, onto the actual, real spoilers with information then

[This message has been edited by miss_spangles (edited January 19, 2002).]

miss_spangles
 


General Season 6 Spoilers - Part 5 - The Black Hole

Postby Apple » Sat Jan 19, 2002 1:07 am

Hey if Hurc is still lurking, dont go, we're open to anyone here.
We dont dislike you we just fear the info you bring. So much anti-W/T stuff out there.
Anyway hope I'm not overstepping the bounds with the mods. But hey come visit and bring your info anytime you want.
Apple
 


General Season 6 Spoilers - Part 5 - The Black Hole

Postby Eyes Without A Face » Sat Jan 19, 2002 5:15 am

"I am not so sure Willow is more powerful than Tara."

The Rose,

Tara's true power remains to be seen. In the meantime, she herself expressed:

"But your power shone
Brighter than any I've known"

to Willow. If she is more powerful, she doesn't know it (she couldn't have been lying during the song because of Sweet's spell).

------------------
Wallpapers
Illegitimi non carborundum!

Eyes Without A Face
 


General Season 6 Spoilers - Part 5 - The Black Hole

Postby Thanatopsis » Sat Jan 19, 2002 9:41 am

In terms of Willow being more powerful than Tara, its a case of, "I think the lady doth protest too much." Meaning we've been practically beaten over the head with the fact that Willow is more powerful than Tara. That includes everyone saying and even the physical evidence. Part of me thinks this is very Joss to show us evidence of one thing and then surprise us with something the complete opposite.
I'm leaning towards Tara having more power than she realizes either because she's afraid to use it or she hasn't fully explored it, though she's had no real reason to find her limitations. For her it isn't about that, not like it is for Willow.
Hell, maybe we'll never see the full extent of Tara's power. I think she won't seek it out until she has a legit reason to do so.

T

------------------
Buffy: Something's weird.
Oz: Something's not?
-Band Candy

"Oh trusty soda machine, I push you for rootbeer, you give me Coke."
~Willow, Graduation

Thanatopsis
 


General Season 6 Spoilers - Part 5 - The Black Hole

Postby BBOvenGuy » Sat Jan 19, 2002 10:48 am

quote:
Originally posted by Apple:
Hey if Hurc is still lurking, dont go, we're open to anyone here.
We dont dislike you we just fear the info you bring.

I don't fear the info anyone brings as long as it's supported by facts. And I don't fear the unsubstantiated rumors - I just get really annoyed by them.

Something told me I should turn off my computer early last night, and lookie lookie I missed out on the insane troll logic as a result. Could I be developing Cordy's visions? Does that mean Skip's going to show up offering to make me part demon?

------------------
Remember the Kitten Board Mantra: "Joss is nuts about Tara, Willow/Tara and Amber!"
(...and Marti's rather fond of them, too...)
quote:

BBOvenGuy
 


General Season 6 Spoilers - Part 5 - The Black Hole

Postby mat » Sat Jan 19, 2002 12:28 pm

quote:
Originally posted by BBOvenGuy:
Could I be developing Cordy's visions? Does that mean Skip's going to show up offering to make me part demon?

As well as you getting to snog Angel! quote:

mat
 


General Season 6 Spoilers - Part 5 - The Black Hole

Postby BBOvenGuy » Sat Jan 19, 2002 12:31 pm

quote:
Originally posted by mat:
As well as you getting to snog Angel!

Ew! I think I just got one of Cordy's headaches... quote:

BBOvenGuy
 


General Season 6 Spoilers - Part 5 - The Black Hole

Postby mat » Sat Jan 19, 2002 12:39 pm

quote:
Originally posted by BBOvenGuy:
Ew! I think I just got one of Cordy's headaches...

Oh so you want Angel to catch you now... then snog you... *g* Some people!

Edited 2: Change the Smiley! He he he!

[This message has been edited by mat (edited January 19, 2002).]quote:

mat
 


General Season 6 Spoilers - Part 5 - The Black Hole

Postby Reddygirl » Sat Jan 19, 2002 1:33 pm

morgan, I've given up on Prozac and gone straight for the bourbon.

Re Willow and magic and has she hit bottom yet, I remember some very interesting speculation by Tensai (the spoilerslayer) when rumors of a BSD first went around last fall. He pointed out (and correctly) the show is called Buffy the Vampire Slayer, not Willow the Witch. His point was, Willow couldn't keep getting stronger, or even remain at her amazing level without perhaps intruding on Buffy's territory. So, maybe something will happen (but not Tara's death)that reinforces the idea Willow has to completely leave magick alone.
If ME wants to continue with the addict metaphor, it would make sense because twelve-step programs for alcoholism, for example, start with the premise the addict will never be able to take a drink socially again. So, maybe by season's end, Willow will have completely given up the spell/magick part of Wicca, and Tara will be the one the SGs use when a little supernatural help is needed. I like this idea because, obviously, it gives Tara who own place in the SGs. Will can use her intellegence and research skills to assist the gang, and Tara, who seems inately to understand the dark side of magick, would be the one to cast the occasional necessary spell.
Some might say Tara, as a good partner, has to give up magick as to not tempt Will, but my personal experience says this doesn't have to be the case. My sig other of 8 years has been a recovering alcoholic for 12 years. I love wine and often have it in the house. It's not a problem for him. I know every situation is different, I don't see why Will can't be like my boyfriend and be around other people who drink without falling off the wagon.

Reddygirl
 


General Season 6 Spoilers - Part 5 - The Black Hole

Postby Willowlicious » Sat Jan 19, 2002 2:11 pm

quote:
Originally posted by Reddygirl:

Re Willow and magic and has she hit bottom yet, I remember some very interesting speculation by Tensai (the spoilerslayer) when rumors of a BSD first went around last fall. He pointed out (and correctly) the show is called Buffy the Vampire Slayer, not Willow the Witch. His point was, Willow couldn't keep getting stronger, or even remain at her amazing level without perhaps intruding on Buffy's territory.


Yes, one of the biggest problems with Willow is that she was more powerful than Buffy and, in fact, so powerful that her presence had the potential to impede plots.

INT. MAGIC BOX

Giles (from the speakerphone): Good lord, the world is ending!!

Scoobies: Again???!!!

Buffy: Don't worry, Willow will take care of it. In the meantime, I'm going to go and screw Spike. Watch Dawn for me?

Buffy leaves and Willow absent mindedly snaps her fingers. POOF! Big Bad all gone. They all go back to reading.

Ummm...yeah. Anyway, if, as speculated in this thread, Tara is just as powerful as Willow, the writers would have the same problem all over again. Buffy has to be the central hero. Willow's "addiction" is the writer's version of a market correction. They didn't do it just for the drama. They did it in part to fix a bit of a problem they created. If Tara were to turn into SuperTara, then I really would worry for her life on the show. She'd have to be "adjusted" just as Willow has been. As it is, White Magick Tara has a very bright future on the show, in my opinion. I think the writer's are making her skills critical to keeping Willow in line and providing the occasional supporting spell for Buffy. Tara is turning out to be "essential," just as Willow said.

Amy

[This message has been edited by Willowlicious (edited January 19, 2002).]quote:

Willowlicious
 


General Season 6 Spoilers - Part 5 - The Black Hole

Postby Reddygirl » Sat Jan 19, 2002 2:28 pm

But I think Tara understands the use/misuse of witchcraft better than Willow. For Willow, part of the appeal is it makes her "special" and that's got to be an intoxicating feeling.

Tara could use magick only at a last resort, and the gang, now understanding first hand the potential dangers of spellcasting, would not expect her to use her skills whenever and for whatever.

Reddygirl
 


General Season 6 Spoilers - Part 5 - The Black Hole

Postby Willowlicious » Sat Jan 19, 2002 2:44 pm

Oh, I know Tara is not the type to abuse magick, but if the writers somehow acknowledged that she COULD do some of the things Willow could do, it could possibly still cause problems. They'd have to make room in scripts to explain (or remind) why it is too dangerous to do a big spell even though we know Tara can do it, blah, blah, blah. Or make Tara do speech after speech about how wrong it is to "meddle with Mother Nature." That would get very boring (and annoying) very fast. In the end, it would again cause the writers to have to think of reasons why Tara SHOULDN'T even though she COULD. Could they do that? Sure. Do they want to? I don't think so. Not after they took the time to eliminate the problem with Willow. I'm sure Tara is powerful, but I don't think she approaches Willow's power. But that's just my opinion.
Willowlicious
 


General Season 6 Spoilers - Part 5 - The Black Hole

Postby Scout » Sat Jan 19, 2002 3:01 pm

quote:
Originally posted by Willowlicious:
Yes, one of the biggest problems with Willow is that she was more powerful than Buffy and, in fact, so powerful that her presence had the potential to impede plots.

While I agree that makes sense, I still thought it was ironic that in Drew Greenberg’s interview he said he hadn’t really thought about it:

“Candy: Another point my friend brought up was that in a way, she became more powerful than Buffy, to a degree. Because she could do things that Buffy could never do. And doesn't that take away from how powerful Buffy is supposed to be? When Willow can go around and say `pheeew!' [magic motion with hand]...

Drew: That's an interesting point. That's an interesting take on it, that's something I hadn't really thought of. There's also the tension of not only do you have Willow wanting to do this thing that she really can't do, but also a person very close to her still can. And so we've still got Tara, who can do these things...”

I just found it interesting that it wasn’t something they seemed to be overly concerned with among the writing staff.

quote:

Scout
 


General Season 6 Spoilers - Part 5 - The Black Hole

Postby Eyes Without A Face » Sat Jan 19, 2002 3:50 pm

How was Willow more powerful than Buffy? In The Gift, Buffy and her troll hammer hurt Glory a lot more than Willow ever did. Willow's lightning strike in Tough Love hurt Glory for a very short time and did nothing to slow her down moments later, no cumulative effect. The shattering glass was ineffectual. The Tar spell worked at first but was very daining and prove easy for Glory to break through with one punch in Weight Of The World. Buffy's hits (along with Xander's wrecking ball) hurt Glory enough and for long enough that she turned into Ben and this allowed Giles to execute him and end that part of the threat.

I, for one, will state that Willow was powerful but not too powerful and not more powerful than Buffy. Her magic completes Buffy's physical prowess but Buffy can be an efficient slayer without Willow whereas, without Buffy and even with the Buffybot, a Willow-lead Scoobygang was certainly not very effective in the slaying department.

There might be a need for not making Willow stronger but there is no need to weaken her current power level. It is just right.

------------------
Wallpapers
Illegitimi non carborundum!

Eyes Without A Face
 


General Season 6 Spoilers - Part 5 - The Black Hole

Postby scylla » Sat Jan 19, 2002 4:09 pm

But Buffy did tell Willow that Willow was the only person who had ever hurt Glory. And I don't think Buffy on her own would have been able to hurt Glory much. In "the Gift" Willow's spell to restore Tara's mind weakened Glory. Then the Buffybot gave Glory a run for her money and helped to further weaken her. And, the Dagon Sphere definitely had a hand in creating difficulties for Glory. Finally, once Glory was well-weakened, Buffy had the ENCHANTED hammer. Without those things, I think ALL the Scoobies would have died along with Buffy! And I'd be super upset, too!
scylla
 


General Season 6 Spoilers - Part 5 - The Black Hole

Postby hollowchick » Sat Jan 19, 2002 4:11 pm

quote:
Originally posted by Eyes Without A Face:
How was Willow more powerful than Buffy? In The Gift, Buffy and her troll hammer hurt Glory a lot more than Willow ever did.

Willow was more powerful than Buffy, as Buffy herself admitted, because she actually hurt Glory and Buffy, by herself, never could. Buffy needed Willow's magiks, via the brain-suck reversal, to weaken Glory enough for the Buffybot to step in and do a little damage, then buffy came in with the enchanted Troll hammer to kick some Glory bootie and she still needed Xander and his ball (hehehe) to add a final punch before Giles killed Glory\Ben. Buffy could never have defeated Glory on her own, she couldn't even bruise her. It's very apparent that Willow was more powerful than Buffy ever was by herself.

Looks like my typing is too slow.

[This message has been edited by hollowchick (edited January 19, 2002).]quote:

hollowchick
 


General Season 6 Spoilers - Part 5 - The Black Hole

Postby BBOvenGuy » Sat Jan 19, 2002 4:26 pm

As has been pointed out on this thread, Amber has done yet another magazine cover and interview, where she is once again referred to as "Buffy the Vampire Slayer's Amber Benson."

All this work Amber has done as the "Buffy Ambassador" is hardly what you'd expect to see from an actor whose character is about to be killed off. I'm not saying that's definitive proof, but it is another sign that points away from Tara as the death character - if there even is a death character.

------------------
Remember the Kitten Board Mantra: "Joss is nuts about Tara, Willow/Tara and Amber!"
(...and Marti's rather fond of them, too...)

[This message has been edited by BBOvenGuy (edited January 19, 2002).]

BBOvenGuy
 


General Season 6 Spoilers - Part 5 - The Black Hole

Postby Willowlicious » Sat Jan 19, 2002 4:29 pm

Buffy HERSELF said to Willow, "You're the strongest person here, you know that right?" in The Gift. "Wil, you're the only one who's ever hurt Glory, AT ALL." Without Willow's spell that sucked Tara's brain back (god that is odd to write with a straight face ), Buffy never would have been able to get the upper hand on Glory. Glory was disoriented and that allowed Buffy to move in. In the end, Buffy didn't defeat Glory--the entire Scooby gang did. But they wouldn't have been able to if Willow hadn't have put the first chink in the armor--something Buffy couldn't do all season long.

Then you have the whole issue of resurrection. Buffy certainly can't do that. (She wishes Willow couldn't either! )

Even something so simple as Willow saying, "Thicken," and a barrier popping up between her and Glory is way beyond Buffy's abilities. Theoretically she could box in most any Big Bad and keep them restrained for a good, proper staking. Who needs to fight anyway?

In "Wrecked," Willow incinerated the demon that was chasing her and Dawn. Buffy just knocked him around a bit. Willow killed him. Again, why work up a sweat?

They have different methods, but, to me, Willow is more powerful and it was becoming a plausibility problem.

Edited for typos and to add that other people alreay beat me to the punch in explaining all this!

[This message has been edited by Willowlicious (edited January 19, 2002).]

Willowlicious
 


General Season 6 Spoilers - Part 5 - The Black Hole

Postby Eyes Without A Face » Sat Jan 19, 2002 4:33 pm

The effects of the brain-sucking reversal, Dagon sphere and Buffybot punches were starting to go when the real Buffy stepped in, Remember what Glory said before she beheaded the bot? "GLORY: I'm feeling a little better. And now? I'm a little bored."

The amount of woop-ass Buffy gave Glory is much more than what Willow did. In Act 4, Glory was even bleeding from the nose. Hell, her face is half covered in blood before she turns into Ben. Willow's lightning attack may have triggered her synapses and caused momentary pain but it did not leave a scratch on Glory and certainly did nothing to her power level & stamina. That stamina was gone by the end of The Gift. The brain blowing had something to do with this earlier in the episode though.

Buffy could not have taken Glory on her own but neither could Willow. In Tough love, Buffy saved Willow's ass from Glory. Willow alone would have been toast.

The thicken spell is very draining on Willow. It won't last very long and one blow from a powerful opponent can shatter its effect. It would be useless against a creature with a ranged non-physical attack. The resurrection spell is an indication of power but that is healing power, not useful directly in a fight (as anyone who plays RPGs has experienced). Spell casting takes time and during that time, the caster is extremely vulnerable and the casting could be disrupted by a simple blow. Moreover, if we were to talk in terms of hit points, Willow, being a spellcaster, can dish but she cannot take punishment. Glory was about to squash her like a bug when Buffy came. Buffy can get hit by Glory and be bruised/hurt but she will survive. One Glory punch and Willow's insides will be jellyfied.

This is the same dilemma encountered by party designers in all RPGs, spell casters vs fighters. In the end, you need both for a versatile powerful party.

One could always find situations where one of the two is more useful than the other. For example, in a surprise attack by a lethal monster, Willow's weak constitution, lack of reflexes and time needed to cast a spell would be a detriment. A monster could just jump from behind a crate and rip her head off before she even knows what happens. Buffy's reflexes and tougher body structure would help a lot more in such a situation, whereas Willow won't survive the first attack. In Baldur's Gate 2, Might & Magic, etc..., I have decimated parties of spell casters with just knights, simply by ambushing them or closing the range quickly and slaughtering them with good old steel.

At longer ranges, without being surprised, is where Willow's spell casting is more useful. As long as no monster lays a hand on her, she's OK (also if the monster needs her alive for some reason, e.g. a vampire to feed).

My point is, there is no need to make Willow less powerful. I like her just as she is now with her brain+magic combo. Buffy is still the brawn of the show and the one doing the major slaying. Together at their current power level, the duo is much more interesting and the possibilities are more numerous than with either of them diminished.

------------------
Wallpapers
Illegitimi non carborundum!

[This message has been edited by Eyes Without A Face (edited January 19, 2002).]

Eyes Without A Face
 


General Season 6 Spoilers - Part 5 - The Black Hole

Postby topsmeghaed » Sat Jan 19, 2002 5:03 pm

quote:
Originally posted by Kiwiccan:
Thank you for all the info you have given us so far.

Well now, personally I'm in the camp that Tara is hiding real her power. I think Tara has the ability to be a way badass wicca, but she is holding back. And yes I think it has to do with her past and her family (mom, grandmother). There is more to little miss Tara than we know. I hope we find out soon.



Thats my take on Tara as well, she comes from a family of witches whilst Willow is first generation, she was aware that something was wrong with Buffy when Faith did the body switch (while Willow, Buffys best friend did not notice anything was wrong at all) and i think, through the teachings of her mother that she has always been aware of the dangers of magic (or perhaps abuse of magic is what killed her mother.)
quote:

topsmeghaed
 


General Season 6 Spoilers - Part 5 - The Black Hole

Postby miss_spangles » Sat Jan 19, 2002 5:47 pm

I tend to think (and I could be wrong) that the writers have decided that Willow is very powerful with magic, while Tara is very aware and responsible of how to use it properly. Tara may not have Willow's power and Willow doesn't have Tara's knowledge and history of magic use and therefore they complement each other perfectly. And even if Tara isn't more powerful than Willow, Tara is pretty special in a thousand other ways
miss_spangles
 

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