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Discussion – S6E13 – “Dead Things”

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Discussion – S6E13 – “Dead Things”

Postby AutumnT » Wed Feb 06, 2002 3:24 pm

quote:
Originally posted by ArtemisEcstasy:
Now about that green thing, I totally agree. What the heck was that? It was some weird sort of combination between off-the-shoulder shirt and camp tee.

For a moment I was terrified Buffy was going to actually wear that outfit to the Bronze. Though in retrospect it probably would have been better for her in the end if she did.

And ye gods yes the end little filmy black thing too. At least there were no hats.

And Willow's hair looked so pretty.

I think I have now covered everything superficial.

------------------
Autumn

I'm just taking stuff and not paying for it. In what twisted dictionary is that stealing?quote:

AutumnT
 


Discussion – S6E13 – “Dead Things”

Postby TV4MOI » Wed Feb 06, 2002 4:07 pm

I agree with everyone! Tara was gorgeous! I loved her in this episode.

And I know you guys will hate me for this, but in the last scene with Buffy and Tara, right before Buffy collapses into Tara's lap, SMG did this weird thing with her mouth..... and.... IT WAS SO FUNNY! Now, whenever I watch that scene I can't help but laugh.

I know it was supposed to be all "oh no, Buffy's sad," but I thought it was hilarious.

Like I said, sorry!

~Ash

------------------
"You can not have more catnip! You have a catnip problem!"

Tara: O-ou-our relationship?
Willow: We're friends.
Tara: Good friends.
Willow: Girlfriends, actually.
Tara: Yes, we're girlfriends.
Willow: We're in love. We're... lovers. Lesbian, gay-type lovers.

TV4MOI
 


Discussion – S6E13 – “Dead Things”

Postby Scout » Wed Feb 06, 2002 4:09 pm

Re: the deer

I can't imagine why Willow would choose to kill the deer if it was acceptable to get the blood another way. That just doesn't seem like Willow. I always assumed that the spell required the spellcaster to perform a ritual killing (hence the words she spoke while doing it). I also assumed that Willow felt she couldn't tell Tara and the others what was required; maybe she thought she was protecting them. You could also argue that she simply didn't trust Tara enough to tell her.

If while researching the spell, Tara discovered that Willow had to kill the deer, then she would know Willow lied to her - twice (once in 'Bargaining' and once in 'Afterlife' -when she told Tara she didn't know what the demon in their room was talking about). I think this would have been mentioned or we would have seen some negative emotions from Tara during her interaction with Willow on the street. Thus I assume that Tara didn't discover what Willow did while researching the spell.

For my peace of mind, I would prefer that it came up again just so they could reconcile with a clean slate. Personally, I think it looks like they don't plan on bringing it up again, based on last night's episode.

[This message has been edited by Scout (edited February 06, 2002).]

[This message has been edited by Scout (edited February 06, 2002).]

Scout
 


Discussion – S6E13 – “Dead Things”

Postby Popje » Wed Feb 06, 2002 4:56 pm

I pick up parallels much more between Buffy and Warren than Warren and Willow or Warren and Spike. Obviously, Warren shows a dark path that Willow could have gone down. But Buffy seems further along the “dark” path than Willow ever was. Notice how both Warren and Buffy are wanting love, but objectifying their partners and using them? One making the other an involuntary “slave” (Warren to Katrina) the other having a willing slave (Buffy to Spike). Both inflict physical harm on their partners. Warren killing Katrina, Buffy pummeling Spike (and having a dream of staking him – notice in the dream how subservient Spike is. He’s under Buffy, Buffy is in the dominant position. He’s handcuffed and then he’s staked. Foreshadowing something?
Katrina and Spike both know something is “wrong” with their partners. Katrina, knowing Warren’s “sick” (guess we found out how sick this ep), and Spike knowing Buffy’s alienating herself from her friends by walking on the dark side. Other parallels…Warren decides to cover up his murder (an immoral act), Buffy decides to confess and turn herself in (a moral act). She also acknowledges to Tara that treating the Spike the way she does is “wrong”, separating her moral compass from the Troika’s. And it’s at this point that I see Buffy showing the start of healing and a path to understanding her true self. She’s got a lot to reconcile (as to why she seems to be increasing drawn to the shadows – “you think you know what you are, what you will become…”.

Popje

Popje
 


Discussion – S6E13 – “Dead Things”

Postby KittyKo » Wed Feb 06, 2002 5:13 pm

Very interesting episode, I can't think of anything that wasn't already said in here. I'm *so* glad Tara is back *sigh* Plus Willow looked so adorable, ahhh good-old-new-Willow.

I have a question though, does anyone know which is the song playing right after Tara leaves? Yes, yes... I am a music junkie.

KittyKo
 


Discussion – S6E13 – “Dead Things”

Postby eekiboo » Wed Feb 06, 2002 5:36 pm

quote:
Originally posted by Eyes Without A Face:
A Tarak Nee might be an inhabitant of Tarak Nor (the erst Cardassian space station now renamed Deep Space Nine).


LOL am i the only who got that?

5 words for this ep: "TARA IS BACK, WHOO HOO!"

that deserves jolly jumping:

peace!

------------------
Willow and Tara's Room
"...this is the room where you don't have to be brave..."
quote:

eekiboo
 


Discussion – S6E13 – “Dead Things”

Postby Eyes Without A Face » Wed Feb 06, 2002 5:43 pm

There are also the Knights Who Say Knee!

BTW, You don't want to know what Knor Swiss translates as in Cardassian! As Sulu would say...

------------------
Wallpapers
Illegitimi non carborundum!

[This message has been edited by Eyes Without A Face (edited February 06, 2002).]

Eyes Without A Face
 


Discussion – S6E13 – “Dead Things”

Postby Popje » Wed Feb 06, 2002 5:52 pm

For those that may be interested, here's Entertainment Weekly's review.

If ''Buffy the Vampire Slayer'' insists on becoming a supernatural ''Dawson's Creek,'' then please: more episodes like Feb. 5's ''Dead Things,'' easily the series' most psychologically complex, smartly-told tale of the season.

The episode kicked off with the aftermath of another furniture-threatening forno-fest between Spike and Buffy, in which the love-struck vampire finally called the Slayer out on her sexual obsession. ''Do you even LIKE me?'' Spike asked. ''Sometimes,'' replied Buffy. A stung Spike then asked a more telling question: ''Do you trust me?'' Her answer was no -- though the episode proceeded to explore was how little Buffy trusts herself.

The story hinged on serious developments in two season-long subplots. First, Buffy asked Willow's wiccan ex-girlfriend Tara to look into why Spike can hit her even when he has a chip in his head that should prevent him from hurting anything human. Second, those Dorks of Doom -- Jonathan, Andrew, and Warren -- whipped up some enchanted device that could turn any woman into their sex slave. Call it ''magical date-rape.''

Their first victim: Warren's ex-girlfriend Katrina. Things, of course, went wrong -- but this time, tragically, and Katrina wound up dead. And with that, these wannabe villains, whose wickedness had been so whimsical until now, finally crossed the line into true evil. A hallmark of which is not taking responsibility for your actions: hence, they plotted to pin their homicide on Buffy.

The frame on Buffy involved sending some temporal distortion demons to distract her while they snuck Katrina's corpse onto the battlefield. Buffy got so discombobulated by this attack (the fragmented, non-linear presentation of this scene was very cool), that when it was over, and she saw Katrina, the Slayer was certain she had accidentally killed her.

That's when the episode took it up a notch. Spike, sensing an opportunity to prove himself to Buffy, asked her to TRUST him, to let him take care of this, to make her problem go away. But Buffy, in a moment of heroic clarity, realized she must turn herself into the police. She told this to little sister Dawn, who has felt neglected by her never-around sister. Dawn asked Buffy not to go, but held back expressing another, more surprising feeling: relief. In finally re-taking responsibility for her life. Buffy became safe again for Dawn.

The twist came after Buffy discovered she wasn't to blame for Katrina's homicide. Upon learning that Buffy wasn't going to jail after all, and that perhaps nothing has truly changed with her big sister, Dawn inexplicably stomped out of the room. The reaction was unexpected, the emotional meaning subtle yet stunning.

''Dead Things'' saved its emotional whopper for the climax, when Tara revealed to Buffy that there is actually nothing seriously wrong with her, that Spike can hurt her because of some slight flaw in her post-resurrection molecular make-up. Buffy couldn't accept this. She desperately wanted to believe that something else was to blame for her self-destructive decisions. She wanted to be fixed; failing that, she yearned to be disciplined, like some addict whose indulgences are really cries for help.

''Please, DON'T forgive me,'' Buffy wailed. ''Please, don't FORGIVE me.'' Okay, maybe a tad too writerly. Still, I liked it. For me, ''Dead Things'' was the exact opposite of its title: it was full of life, full of soul. And if ''Buffy'' can't keep it up—well, that, I won't forgive.

Popje
 


Discussion – S6E13 – “Dead Things”

Postby Spinner » Wed Feb 06, 2002 6:12 pm

It seemed to me that Tara in this episode came across as larger than before. She was less folded in on herself, standing up taller and looking people in the eye. At the beginning of the W/T scene, she did hang her head down in her old style, but quickly overcame that and stood tall again. I guess leaving Willow did build her self-confidence and it shows physically.
Spinner
 


Discussion – S6E13 – “Dead Things”

Postby SiWangMu » Wed Feb 06, 2002 6:12 pm

I like this review of the episode a lot (although there should be mention of W/T! But that could just be me). The only other thing is that I disagreed on the interpretation of Dawn's responses. I didn't think she considered Buffy's decision to go to the police a particularly good thing, much less was she disappointed that Buffy didn't go. She saw it as one more attempt of Buffy's at detaching herself (I'm not saying this well, but hopefully the meaning is clear).

------------------
"I think this line's mostly filler"

SiWangMu
 


Discussion – S6E13 – “Dead Things”

Postby Epicurus » Wed Feb 06, 2002 6:25 pm

If ''Buffy the Vampire Slayer'' insists on becoming a supernatural ''Dawson's Creek,'' then please: more episodes like Feb. 5's ''Dead Things,'' easily the series' most psychologically complex, smartly-told tale of the season.

BTVS is becoming the supernatual "Dawson's Creek"? *ack*
That is the weirdest comment/comparison in any review that I've ever read. It sounded like an insult at first then called the epi complex and smartly-told? Since when was DC either complex or smart?

On to episode comments:

Great episode. I'm joining "The only thing straight that suits Willow is her hair" Club. Absolutely adorable!
I'm glad to see Buffy still working at the DMP and showing scenes there. There's nothing worse then knowing a character works to earn money but never see them actually working. I felt bad for Spike when Buffy beat him to a bloody pulp. When he turned from vampface back to human, it broke my heart. I have too much empathy for him, except when he's f^@$ing her from behind in public places. That really grates my cheese.

Loved seeing Tara again. For me, she IS the heart of the show.

Epicurus
 


Discussion – S6E13 – “Dead Things”

Postby bach » Wed Feb 06, 2002 7:25 pm

My first post, so here I go.

Isn't it a little bit odd that Tara doesn't already know about the resurrection spell?

She and Willow seems to have always studied spells together. Since this is such a huge deal and that Tara herself was so opposed to the resurrection spell of Buffy's mother, that she herself would play a more important role in the resurrection of Buffy. At least, study it with Willow. It just seems out of character for Tara to just leave something this big upto Willow. Maybe Tara just needed a rest from the brain drain.


Does anybody here doubt that Buffy was in heaven? From the beginning, we're hinted that she was pulled out from heaven. That everything she's been feeling or not feeling is due to the point that she was happy where she was and has to now deal with living and breathing again. Could this be a huge misdirection? Are we just being tugged along in believing that this was so? That Buffy wasn't really in heaven. That it was something else, someplace else.

------------------

bach
 


Discussion – S6E13 – “Dead Things”

Postby Mr_A24 » Wed Feb 06, 2002 7:48 pm

Having finally seen the ep I re-assert my notion that Buffy is, in fact, a sex addict. She if finally dealing with that aspect of the slayer that powers her sex drive. That's what's "wrong" with her. She and Faith unfortunately have that to deal with and now that Buffy gotten use to sex, a la Riley, she
has just transferred it to Spike. gotta say I loved seeing Tara as Buffy's confessor.( is that even the right word) Who else thinks that the Lame Gunmen are just a dark mirror for the Scoobies?
Mr_A24
 


Discussion – S6E13 – “Dead Things”

Postby christa monsta » Wed Feb 06, 2002 7:53 pm


i think a lot of this episode had to do with buffy's idea of right and wrong. when faith inhabited buffy's body in "this year's girl" and "who are you", she became a caricature of buffy..."you shouldn't do that. it's wrong". everything is black and white. there is no in between. but growing up means that you realize that we are all complex beings. we are drawn most to the things which scare us most (in a Jungian way). buffy's personal ideas of emotion and morality are tied up in the slayer's ideas of emotion and morality. buffy thinks she's killed someone. so she must be judged (legally). buffy thinks that "wanting" spike (whatever your definition of "wanting" may be) is wrong. so she must be judged ("please don't forgive me"). that last scene was a play-out of a therapy session. buffy is learning that we all have dark sides. but that doesn't mean that we are lost. and tara, as a good friend would do, does not judge her. she validates buffy's feelings, even when they disgust buffy herself (tara says it's ok if you don't love him, it's ok if you do, because those are both valid feelings). hopefully tara will be the one to help her through this, since she seems to be the most balanced person around. she certainly has come full circle from season 4.

i can't wait to see how buffy comes out of this. and i'm so glad tara is once again (as someone mentioned) buffy's guide through this tough time.

------------------
"You can sleep with me!
Well now, that came out a lot more lesbian than it sounded in my head."

christa monsta
 


Discussion – S6E13 – “Dead Things”

Postby Epicurus » Wed Feb 06, 2002 7:58 pm

quote:
Originally posted by bach:
My first post, so here I go.

Isn't it a little bit odd that Tara doesn't already know about the resurrection spell?
She and Willow seems to have always studied spells together. Since this is such a huge deal and that Tara herself was so opposed to the resurrection spell of Buffy's mother, that she herself would play a more important role in the resurrection of Buffy. At least, study it with Willow. It just seems out of character for Tara to just leave something this big upto Willow...


I speculate that the reason Tara didn't look into that spell is because she knew how badly Willow needed/wanted Buffy back, so she put semi-blinders on. Maybe not wanting to know. We could only speculate on what might have happened in the summer for them to all agree to bring her back, especially Tara. Considering, as you have said, how opposed she was to it with Buffy's mom. I think she felt just comfortable enough and wanted to trust Willow so much that things were going to go smoothly. I wouldn't say it was out of character for Tara. She is a very compromising person. quote:

Epicurus
 


Discussion – S6E13 – “Dead Things”

Postby Zahir » Wed Feb 06, 2002 10:09 pm

quote:
Originally posted by bach:

Does anybody here doubt that Buffy was in heaven? From the beginning, we're hinted that she was pulled out from heaven. That everything she's been feeling or not feeling is due to the point that she was happy where she was and has to now deal with living and breathing again. Could this be a huge misdirection? Are we just being tugged along in believing that this was so? That Buffy wasn't really in heaven. That it was something else, someplace else.

According to Buffy (who was there) she was warm and safe, certain that she was loved and all whom she loved were safe.

Sounds like heaven to me. If not, it'll do 'till something better comes along.

------------------
"O let my name be in the Book of Love.
If it be there, I care not of
That other book Above...
Strike it out! Or write it in anew.
But let it be in the Book of Love!"
--Omar Kyam
quote:

Zahir
 


Discussion – S6E13 – “Dead Things”

Postby BBOvenGuy » Wed Feb 06, 2002 10:51 pm

quote:
Originally posted by MyStrangersFace:
I'm going through a kind of culture shock. The current gang is like a shadow of the gang of the 2nd/3rd seasons (that I'm used to seeing on FX). In earlier seasons, it seemed like then showed revolved around Xander, Buffy, Willow (& their SOs) taking on some kind of evil, with Giles faithfully guiding them along. In the present 6th season, Giles is gone and the gang seems to be coming undone. Sad is the feeling that I'm left with after last night's episode. It doesn't feel like Buffy. They're not fighting external evils, they're all fighting with their own internal demons.

Hi and welcome!

I'm sure someone will point you to the Introduction Thread, if they haven't already.

As for your comments... yeah, Buffy isn't the same show any more. As horrible as Sunnydale High was, it also gave the show a sense of... well, innocence, as strange as that may sound. The kids went to school, they went to class, they faced exams and peer pressure and stuff, nice Mister Giles was there to be helpful, mean Mister Snyder was there to be difficult... there was a sense of order that the show hasn't had since then. And since our characters are now out in the big wide world, with no chance of going back to high school, I don't think we'll see that innocence recaptured any time soon.

Personally, I would have kept the gang in a college setting for longer than Joss did - and if I ever have my own TV show, that's exactly what I'll do. It would have presented more of a sense of order, if nothing else. Joss, on the other hand, seems to like the chaos and confusion - and he does a good job with it, so I'll let him keep going the way he wants.

One other thing the first three seasons had was the Buffy/Angel romance, which was in many ways an overgrown fairy tale. Buffy's relationships since then have been much more real-world and messy.

------------------
Remember the Kitten Board Mantra: "Joss is nuts about Tara, Willow/Tara and Amber!"
(...and Marti's rather fond of them, too...)

"I have this sudden urge to dedicate my productive cooperation."quote:

BBOvenGuy
 


Discussion – S6E13 – “Dead Things”

Postby kpmuse » Wed Feb 06, 2002 10:51 pm

Powerful episode. The most striking thing for me was the wonderful scene between Tara & Buffy. There were many, many layers there.

The most important for me was ------ >
I thought that Tara gave us a BIG CLUE about where her heart is when it comes to love, forgiveness & acceptance. I feel stronger than ever that there will be a reconciliation between Tara & Willow!

OK, here's the clue. When Tara realized that Buffy & Spike were together in that last scene, she asked Buffy "Do you love him?" Then she said "It's OK if you do, he's done a lot of good and he does love you."

I got the impression that Tara is someone who could love someone who has made some mistakes, done some things wrong, hurt people, but is also good and trying to stay that way. And, it's OK.

To be clear, I am in no way saying that Willow is like Spike or that she is bad or that there are any parallels between them whatsoever.

Just that Tara makes room in her heart for the fact that loving someone is complicated, takes compassion, and sometimes forgiveness, especially when the other has redeemed themselves.

I am pretty jazzed to get a glimpse into her thinking about love and I clearly see that the door is way open for forgiveness and getting back together for Willow and Tara!

If you couple this with the scene between W & T, who showed that they are SO Clearly In Love With Each Other, then to me, the only question is when will they get back together!

kris

kpmuse
 


Discussion – S6E13 – “Dead Things”

Postby Dave V » Thu Feb 07, 2002 12:31 am

ScoopMe! has another review of the episode. It is an interesting analysis of the theme of abuse.

Dead Things: Needful Things
by Jen Sonstein 2/5/2002

Addiction. Abuse. Control. Power. These characteristics feed into the cycle of violence.

The need for power leads to addiction. The addiction leads to the need for control. The need for control leads to abuse. Round and round the circle goes.

"Dead Things" was one of the most realistically disturbing episodes of BtVS, probably since "The Body."

BtVS, a show steeped in blood and gore, is naturally disturbing. However, after watching a few episodes, viewers tend to become numb to the superficial violence–the vampire slayings and the demon butt whippings. After all, how often do these things happen in real life?

It’s the human side of the show that tends to touch a nerve. Love. Sex. Drugs. Death. These are matters we understand and know all too well.

An extraordinarily unhealthy relationship is a twenty-something staple. If you are fortunate enough not to have experienced this personally or seen it happen to a friend, you have probably seen the abusive boyfriend portrayed on YA shows like 90210 (Donna’s college boyfriend, Ray) or on Oprah.

The guy’s usually a dirtbag like Warren. He feels rejected. He is in desperate need of love, but also willing to do whatever it takes to acquire it. When love is not given, the abusive boyfriend will take it. When met with resistance, he will fight back even harder.

Like many women who end romantic relationships with scum, Katrina thought Warren was eliminated from her life. Sadly for her, Warren jumps at the opportunity to regain her "affection" once he has the power to do so. It doesn’t matter to Warren that she rejects his come on. He has power and knows how to use it. Since she won’t agree to love him, he’ll make her.

Just like a frat boy with a roofie, Warren uses his version of a "cerebral dampener" to rape Katrina. He plays with her mind and gets her to do things she’d be loathe to do if she was thinking clearly.

Spike’s camp isn’t too far away from Warren’s.

In addition to really horrid love poems, Spike wrote the book on manipulation. His most polished tactic when it comes to wooing Buffy over to the Dark Side is to remind her of how different she is from her friends. (Remember when Faith used the same maneuver in season three?)

"You see. You try to be with them, but you always end up in the dark with me," Spike says to Buffy as he balls her from behind in the Bronze.

Sidetracking for just a second: Is anyone else really sick of Buffy’s and Spike’s sex faces? The way she looks like she’s in excruciating pain and the way he purses up his lips as if to say "yeah baby, take that?" Spikey takes her from behind a lot; reminding viewers of how animalistic this relationship is. There’s nothing gentle or affectionate about the way the two interact.

Still, as much as it absolutely sickens her, Buffy only feels good about herself when she’s with Spike. Why?

Buffy returns to Spike for the same reason many people stay in abusive relationships. He fulfills a need. Maybe she needs to feel loved. ("Nothing seems to penetrate my heart...") Maybe she believes one monster deserves another. ("She came from the grave much graver.") Maybe it just feels good. ("I want the fire back.")

Whatever her reason, it’s reason enough for her to stay.

Tara asks Buffy if she’s in love with Spike or just using him. Buffy doesn’t answer. Can Buffy possibly be in love with a monster? She’s asking herself the same question and driving herself batty in the process.

Spike claims he’s in love with Buffy. He tells her, "you always hurt the ones you love."

Healthy lovers often cause each other emotional pain. So this statement is true; to a point. But when the hurt starts showing up as black and blue marks on your body, it’s no longer love, or anything close to love. It’s sick.

It’s textbook health class. There is nothing romantic about violence. There is nothing sweet about possessiveness. There is nothing healthy about this coupling. Sorry B/S ‘shippers. This has got to end.

Buffy and Spike’s is an abusive relationship where both are abusers and each is abused. This vampire and this slayer need each other, but in the worst way. They each want to feel good, but both feel bad that the other makes them feel this way.

While Spike tends to be emotionally abusive and obsessive, Buffy’s just an all-around shit--continually hurting Spike both emotionally and physically. Vampire or not; when she needs him to be "the man," Buffy enjoys his manly goods. When she’s no longer in need of his services, she remembers he is a monster. And treats him as such. They’ve created a cycle of violence.

Buffy is an abuser. There is no excuse for her actions; not even the fact that she’s a slayer and he’s an "evil, blood-sucking fiend."

Since being called upon to be a slayer, Buffy has desperately yearned for normal life. When she moved to Sunnydale, she made normal friends. When Angel left, she tried to find a normal boyfriend. She’s trying her darndest to make due with her normal day job.

"To be like other girls, To fit in in this glittering world."

When Tara tells Buffy she is normal, Buffy flips. She begs Tara to try again, to find something wrong with her; something else to blame. She needs Tara to tell her she’s wrong; she’s different; she’s bad.

Buffy has no one else to blame for her actions, but herself. Her big time problems have nothing to do with the way she came back form Hell. She’s an after, after, after school special. She’s ripe for Oprah. She’s an abuser. She has problems.

"Dead Things" was filled with crossed parallels. Buffy = Willow. Warren = Spike, but Buffy = Warren. Katrina = Spike, but Spike = evil.

Good and bad are no longer black and white. Everything has turned very gray in Sunnydale.

Dave V
 


Discussion – S6E13 – “Dead Things”

Postby Dr.G » Thu Feb 07, 2002 1:13 am

quote:
Originally posted by mariacomet:

How far a jump from selfish and arrogant is it to evil? We consider Adolph Hilter an evil man, but in his eyes he was trying to aid the german people. And at the time, he DID aid Germany into becoming a powerful world power and into a more stable economy. He did it because he believed that Germans being superior was 'right.'

It's a bit off the wall comparing our Willow and Hilter, so I am going to stop that. I was only using Hilter to get back to the idea of how people can convince themselves that what they are doing is 'right.'


In this case I'd say jump around the world three times and you still would not get close. The name is Adolf Hitler btw, and it stands for the very worst mankind is capable of, makes comparing Willow to Warren look like comparing her to a saint.

Ah and as for what Hitler believed or was trying to do, or whether he was even trying to convince himself of anything, I would not even venture to guess or speculate about but, among all the other atrocities, he was responsible for killing too many of those Germans you say he considered superior to count, including my grandmother's father, her brothers and almost my grandmother and my mother.
Please consider what you say before bringing up such a name.

[This message has been edited by Dr.G (edited February 07, 2002).]quote:

Dr.G
 


Discussion – S6E13 – “Dead Things”

Postby maudmac » Thu Feb 07, 2002 2:31 am

Yikes!

What a great show this is that it inspires such profound and passionate opinions. And what a great board this is that there's room for "Oooo, Willow's hair is so cute" and Adolf Hitler in the same thread. This thread is intense. It's like a roller coaster.

Y'all are awesome. I'm so enjoying the ride.

Some thoughts:

Lots of posts about Warren/Willow parallels and much of the debate seems to hinge on the intent behind their respective actions. Warren intended to subjugate Katrina. From the beginning, the LOD has intended to impress their will on others for their own gain or to fulfill their fantasies. To make their environment to their liking.

And this is also what Willow did. No, there was no effort to fully subjugate Tara, but Willow did impress her will on Tara, et al. My biggest problem with Willow's actions is that she did it to Tara TWICE. I imagine once, okay, they can deal with that. (Willow doesn't want them to fight, especially since she lost Tara temporarily after their last fight. But Tara isn't in let's-talk-and-resolve-all-this-now mood. Willow's scared and frustrated and it just sort of comes out - "Forget.") But there's a serious problem if the pain Tara expressed at the beginning of "Tabula Rasa" didn't motivate Willow to realize how deeply wrong it is to alter people's memories and manipulate them against their will. In a way, it sort of does subjugate them. Hence, the parallels.

As far as intent goes, on a certain level it's completely irrelevant. But, on another level, it's all that matters. An example from my own life. My gf broke my nose once. It was an accident and it was half my fault. We just innocently banged into each other. On one level, my nose didn't care how it got broken, there was only pain and blood. But, on another level, there was no pain. None of the emotional pain that comes from knowing you've been hurt intentionally.

So, I guess what I'm saying is that I think everyone's right, but we're all just seeing different levels of the issue and from many angles. Every character, every 'ship, every situation can be interpreted in so many different ways and on a multitude of levels. How it appears to us depends on our perspective. And our perspectives are influenced, at least in part, by our life experiences.

Holy hell, I'm not writing a freakin' book here.

Did I mention yikes?

Take care, Kitties.

maudmac
 


Discussion – S6E13 – “Dead Things”

Postby Scout » Thu Feb 07, 2002 5:53 am

quote:
Originally posted by Dave V:
ScoopMe! has another review of the episode. It is an interesting analysis of the theme of abuse.

Wow, that was a great article. Certainly summed up a lot of my feelings. Thanks for posting it.

quote:

Scout
 


Discussion – S6E13 – “Dead Things”

Postby MyStrangersFace » Thu Feb 07, 2002 9:18 am

I've heard alot of opinions about the W/T scene in "Dead Things". It seems about half the people saw it as Tara blowing off Willow, while others saw two people who still want to be together. This morning I was over at Buffy's UPN site, and read the "Dead Things" synopsis. Here's how the official synopsis summarized the W/T scene: "At the Magic Box, Tara and Willow have to fight temptations to perform their own kind of magic." It sounds like there's hope for the girls, yet. BTW, the link for the official synopsis is:
"http://buffyupn.com/watchers_detail_episodes.jsp?eid=1164".

MyStrangersFace

MyStrangersFace
 


Discussion – S6E13 – “Dead Things”

Postby The Rose » Thu Feb 07, 2002 11:00 am

This is an excellent and powerful review. I agree with all of his observations about Buffy and Spike. I know this is sort of against the rules, but I have to vent. You can edit me or delete me if you want.

quote:
Spike wrote the book on manipulation

quote:
It's textbook health class. There is nothing romantic about violence. There is nothing sweet about obsessiveness. There is nothing healthy about this coupling...

I could not have said this better myself. Thanks, Jen Sonstein.


------------------
Tara: My heart doesn't stutter.

Tara: Willow, I got so lost.
Willow: I found you. I will always find you.

Tara: Nobody messes with my girl!

[This message has been edited by The Rose (edited February 07, 2002).]quote:quote:

The Rose
 


Discussion – S6E13 – “Dead Things”

Postby katydid » Thu Feb 07, 2002 11:40 am

Wow, excellent points everyone....really makes you think of the hidden hidden meaning behind a show. Of course I got all the surface meaning...and most of the hidden meaning...but you all have just pointed me in the right direction for the hidden hidden meaning. I will have to watch the show again tonight to see if I can see some of other peoples observations. Wow, you all really keep me honest!! No more sitting back and just watching Buffy at face value!!

I liked the episode overall...but it was really really dark. I knew it was going to be....but wow it was beyond my expectations. Sometimes wildfeed just doesn't do justice!!! The theme of 'Grow Up' has definately been throughout the season...but the scene with Buffy and Tara in the end of the ep just solidified it for me. Wow!! The raw emotion in that scene...made me speechless. The only thing so far I don't like is this season's spike. I really fell for the nice guy who is hopelessly in love with someone who will never love me. I understood that Spike. They have really moved him well beyond what I had expected. I like him still....but I miss the love struck puppy.

Enough rambling...I have to actually get to work sometime today.

------------------
"She practically has 'genuine molded plastic' stamped on her ass.

katydid
 


Discussion – S6E13 – “Dead Things”

Postby Dr.G » Thu Feb 07, 2002 12:51 pm

quote:
Originally posted by eekiboo:
LOL am i the only who got that?

5 words for this ep: "TARA IS BACK, WHOO HOO!"

that deserves jolly jumping:



Hmmm well I did not get it at first, but that was probably because it is spelled Terok Nor.

Anyway, I would gladly have joined you in the jolly jumping but for the fact my wooden floor won't be able to take it, there already are holes where there used to be wood.

It is great to see Tara again, and to have her reach out to Willow.
It is so sweet and it is a step in the only direction I can and want to see them go: to each other. Right where they belong.

[This message has been edited by Dr.G (edited February 07, 2002).]quote:

Dr.G
 


Discussion – S6E13 – “Dead Things”

Postby mucifer » Thu Feb 07, 2002 5:30 pm

wow what a great episode and so much is open to interpretation. i myself am curious about buffy's need to feel bad and self hatred and wonder if this is going to be tied into her grieving for her mother and feeling that she has let her down. to me buffy seems more like a young self destructive woman than an abuser but it can all be interpreted in so many ways and it will be great to see where the writing leads us.
mucifer
 


Discussion – S6E13 – “Dead Things”

Postby Eyes Without A Face » Thu Feb 07, 2002 6:31 pm

Dr. G,

The correct spelling would have been more suited to The Rock's knee, not particularly appealing to me (though this wrestler might be quite the yummy sight to others). I am often guilty of creative mispelling for the sake of bad punning.


*Tara raises one eyebrow and yells:*

"CAN YOU SMELL WHAT TARA IS COOKING???"

Time to go salvage some spare parts on Empok Nor.

------------------
Wallpapers
Illegitimi non carborundum!

[This message has been edited by Eyes Without A Face (edited February 07, 2002).]

Eyes Without A Face
 


Discussion – S6E13 – “Dead Things”

Postby geekgod » Thu Feb 07, 2002 6:59 pm

i really enjoyed this episode, probably because the last couple past weeks haven't been too great.

first off i was so excited that tara was in it, i did a little happy dance when she came on the screen. then my girlfriend gave me a look and i sat back down. but i was happy all the same.

the willow/tara was so sweet. their missing buffy thing was cute. and they both looked really good. the look on willow's face when tara is leaving is so heartbreaking though.

and the last scene between buffy and tara was great. im sitting there going 'she's going to confess to tara.'and tara did the oh, oh thing when she caught on to what buffy was saying and it was so cute. and then buffy breaks down and starts crying, it was great that tara could be there and supportive for buffy.

yeah all in all i enjoyed the episode. and yay taras back.

------------------
"i don't get wild, wild on me equals 'spaz'"

"i worship beelzebub! i do his bidding. do you see any goats around? no! because i sacrificed them! all bow before SATAN!"

geekgod
 


Discussion – S6E13 – “Dead Things”

Postby Scout » Thu Feb 07, 2002 7:50 pm

quote:
Originally posted by KittyKo:

I have a question though, does anyone know which is the song playing right after Tara leaves?

Someone posted that it's "Out of this World" by Bush (from the "Golden State" CD).

quote:

Scout
 

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