You be a wise man. Thanks for expressing that so very well. And for making me laugh with your parting comment.
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Autumn
I have the sudden urge to dedicate my productive cooperation.
by AutumnT » Wed Feb 27, 2002 1:51 pm
You be a wise man. Thanks for expressing that so very well. And for making me laugh with your parting comment.
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Autumn
I have the sudden urge to dedicate my productive cooperation.
by PF26 » Wed Feb 27, 2002 1:54 pm
quote:
Originally posted by Hugin:
On Spike:When is it Spike's fault? When does anyone break down and say Spike is blowing it by continuing to do evil things as if the good people in his life won't mind? Because either Spike is responsible for his actions, or he isn't. If he isn't, then he's just a pretty, pretty monster with a quick wit. And if he is, then he can't progress until he takes that responisbility, in a woder way than his relationship to Buffy.
-len
See, I agree with you here. Everything Spike gets busted for *is* his own darn fault! I don't understand why people feel that have to appologize for Spike, and cannot look at the character objectively whether they like him or not. I love the character (The snark, the attitude, he's a lot of fun.), but I *don't* love the things he does. Actually it's sort of painfull to watch him keep cutting off his nose to spite his face. Nor do I approve of them, or appologize for them. He's always one step forward, two steps back, because he is his *own* worst enemy.
Now I do think there are larger arc issues at play, and thats just my opinion. Even if that's the case, and Spike was just working for someone else (as I've postulated) he still was wrong to have the things in the first place.
Like I said, I'm not a Spike appologist
PF26
quote:by Mr_A24 » Wed Feb 27, 2002 2:50 pm
Now, I agree it is totally feasible that Riley and Sam were interested in procuring the demon eggs because of Riley's statement about the eggs needing to be on ice in order to prevent them from hatching. Long shot I know, but feasible still.
And Spike spikes alias as "the Doctor" could have been a joke reference as a demon's OBGYN since he was "delivering" the eggs. There is also a inference that Spike has found a way to be evil without using his fangs and fists. I'm very happy about this character development possiblity as his old statements about how he was going to tie Dru up and torture her until she would take him back can now be applied to Buffy. After all for Spike SADISM+VIOLENCE=LOVE. Am I right?
by BBOvenGuy » Wed Feb 27, 2002 3:23 pm
I've been hopping around to a couple of other boards, and I'm astonished at what I've seen. Much of it is the angry rioting I expected, but there have also been some Spike apologetic theorizing that is way funnier than anything that's been postulated here.
My favorite: "That wasn't really Buffy with Spike. It was Halfrek posing as Buffy. Didn't you notice that pendant around Buffy's neck?"
There were also several people who think that Sam is going to be this season's Big Bad.
One more thing about Riley - Did you notice that when he barged into Spike's crypt and caught Spike and Buffy together, he said absolutely nothing about it? I mean, yeah he did later, but while he was in the crypt he was all business, even when Spike was trying to distract him with taunts about it. I liked that. It seemed gentlemanly, not wanting to rub Buffy's nose in what she'd been doing. This may be my favorite Riley episode ever. I'm actually hoping he and Sam make a return visit next year - once Sam's through with being the Big Bad, that is.
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Remember the Kitten Board Mantra: "Joss is nuts about Tara, Willow/Tara and Amber!"
(...and Marti's rather fond of them, too...)
by tyche » Wed Feb 27, 2002 3:23 pm
by KathleenWolf » Wed Feb 27, 2002 3:26 pm
well I did watch the episode last night and totally agree the W/D was sweet, and that it gave us some W/T hope
I don't want to open up or add and flame to the fire of the growing debate here but when do we monitor our line between speculation of what was the motivation/outcome of a line/scene/action and just take it for face value?
Spike was caught with the eggs... his response was to a) deny they were there b) pretend he didn't know why they were there c) use the old standard "holding them for a friend"... whether he is The Doctor or not, does the obvious presentation of him as a person caught in some sort of lie not come through?
As for B/S shippers on whole... everyone is entitled to their own speculation... in my perfect world Buffy is swept off her feet by a tall dark haired power witch... but there you go just me being hopeful... happy sigh
Baseline total... it was an important episode for Buffy's mindset... the what if's of the past have gotten some solid answers and the reality of what she is doing to herself is finally dawning on her... I know that if someone broke up with me with the vague words 'it's killing me to be with you', if I did love them I'd want them to run as far away from me as possilbe...
of course just my waffly opinion... off to dream about Willow and Tara's wedding...
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"Are all you witches gay?" Buffy - Walking In Circles
by Thanatopsis » Wed Feb 27, 2002 3:36 pm
quote:
Originally posted by wiccie:
About Riley and Buffy not having enough time (by some poster's standards) to catch up - I don't think it really matters. Riley has a big scar and a sexy Balkan wife (I melt at Slavic accents*G*), Buffy saved the world and died and came back. All of that is huge, but in the past and ultimately irrelevant.Riley's appearance served to shake Buffy out of her numbness/nostalgia and make her see that the present and future are more important.
This is it exactly. The point of this episode, for the most part, was to shake Buffy up and have her realize that while she now doesn't want to die, she's still not really living. Everything that has happened to either one of them isn't as important as what they are now and in Buffy's case what she plans to do to change it.
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Kind of an unusual name. There's hardly any except Warren Beatty and, you know, President Harding. It's probably not either of them.
~Willow in IWMTLY
by grifter » Wed Feb 27, 2002 3:41 pm
quote:
Originally posted by Hugin:
But, from the point of view of a moderator, and someone who communicates a bit with other moderators, and keeps track of the fandom, and cannot simply ignore or skim over subjects (on this board) that don't personally interest me, the whole thing has slowly become poison, second only to the Tara as BSD rumors in degree of painfulness and actually much more pervasive and unavoidable across the fandom. It's nothing to do with the topic per se. Anything that stirs up so much negativity from both sides, so frequently, gets me down. The endless and irrational Riley hate. The "Is Buffy a slut" stuff from a few years ago. The BSD rumors. Fandom latches onto things and doesn't let them go sometimes, and honestly, it gets old, no matter what the merits of the debate.
[This message has been edited by Hugin (edited February 27, 2002).]
Truer words have seldom been uttered! I´m not a moderator of any kind, but even as a simple poster these discussions get very tiresome, very fast. That´s why I love this board and the atpobtvs.com board...there´s seldom this kind of "discussion" going on on them.
quote:by liveoak » Wed Feb 27, 2002 3:42 pm
If Sam has never known anyone who could beat magic addiction then maybe Will doesn't have an addictive personality. She may be able to find her balance and use magic again one day. Whatever is best for W/T though.
len - Ever seen the character that has no moral compas, regret, or remorse, but still loves. Then through experience learns not to destroy the things they love by not engaging in negative destructive behavior.
by Wiccagrrl » Wed Feb 27, 2002 4:11 pm
quote:
Originally posted by PF26:
I can agree with this.I think that my problem comes from at least to my mind, the utter /irresponsibility/ of painting magic as something that can be a catalyst for addiction, and giving it 'drug-like' withdrawel symptoms.
Wiccans still live in a world rife with religious persecution. I mean look what some of the big Born Again ministers are saying about Islam right now because of 9-11. Look at the Republican National Convention of 1992 where one of the main Prime Time addresses revolved around the deterioration of Family Values and that all Wiccans are lesbians who leave their husbands and kill their children.
They might not be tying Wiccans to the stake anymore and setting them alight, but there is /still/ great misconception out there about Wicca and Magic. Many people take things at face value, and don't look *beneath* the surface.
That's my problem with it. It misrepresents what Magic is /about/, and in doing that, just fuels the fires of misconception about my Faith and Spirituality. Anyway, just wanted to point out why I am so not enamored of the Magic/Addiction metaphore.
PF26
[This message has been edited by PF26 (edited February 27, 2002).]
Very mixed feelings on this. I am enjoying the addiction storyline, and I think I like the character development this will afford both Willow and Tara. I also think Tara still being able to use magic, the fact that they are showing it *can* be used responsibly, is very important, because it takes away from the whole feeling of "Magic is bad, m'kay?"
I was very nervous about the concept of the Willow addiction story when I first heard about it. Not just as a Wiccan, but also because magic had been used as a metaphor for W/T's relationship, and it was a bit uncomfortable to have them going there. I've been very happy with how it's played out, though.
by Ari » Wed Feb 27, 2002 4:15 pm
I have no real problem with Spike. As far as demons go, he's as much a fluffy, wishy-washy kitten of a vampire as William was as a human being. But he's still a vampire just the same.
My personal take on the idea of redemption for Spike is that it can't even begin until he finds a motivation for doing good that's something other than his feelings for Buffy. You can't change for another person. It doesn't work like that. You have to do it for yourself or it doesn't mean anything.
When a decision is contigent upon another person's attitude or opinion, then the motivation for it is always going to be suspect. And if the person's attitude changes or somehow no longer seems a rewarding enough reason then you're back at square one again. The only really meaningful and reliable motivation for change is one that comes from within.
The best example I can think of for this is how they handled Will's breakdown. As many problems as I had with Wrecked, when the time came for Willow to make the decision to go cold turkey, she did it for herself. Because it hurt her to see what it was doing to herself and the people she loved. That's why she's having a successful recovery.
If she really had tried to stop in Tabula Rasa, she would have been doing it to prove something to Tara. And then what would have happened the next time they had a fight or disagreement? She would have been saying, why I am doing this?
One of the potential results of it all is a reunion with Tara. But that's not her main reason for doing it. And that's why her saying no at the party, even when she seemed to have everyone's tacit permission to try a spell, was so meaninful. Because she didn't have to look to anyone else to tell her what she should do. Tara being able to see that is also what helped improve her attitude about Willow as well.
Likewise with Buffy, as much as she worried about what everyone would think about her and Spike, when both Tara and Riley found out and didn't come down on her for it, it helped her find the clarity to make the decision for herself. Because she knew it was wrong and she was only hurting herself. Not because they thought she should.
Whatever hope Spike might have for a meaningful redemption can begin once he understands that what he had with Buffy is over with. Now if he were to find a way to really change (which I honestly doubt, but you never know) then maybe one of the potential results of that would be a relationship with Buffy. Perhaps. But that can't and shouldn't be his reason for doing it.
Motivation for change is like the foundation of a building. If it's not solid, then no matter how much work you put into the construction, it's still going to come crashing down on your head.
Ari
by Dazey » Wed Feb 27, 2002 4:26 pm
Soooooooo happy to see Willow so happy! I think more than anything what I got from this ep was a sense of relief. Willow really turned a major corner at the end of "Wrecked", but with AYW I feel like W/T--Tara's non-episode-being-in-ness notwithstanding--have officially turned a corner and are on the road to reunion. And Dawn seems happier, and most importantly, Buffy has finally turned that corner herself and put an end to the relationship that was dragging her down into darkness. I am neither a B/Ser nor an anti-B/Ser, but I don't see how it could be any clearer that the relationship was not good for Buffy. When she walked into the light at the end, I felt, as I said, a tremendous sense of relief. The show has been so dark this year, to the extent that I actually wondered if I still wanted to watch it...and while I'm not kidding myself about the difficulties still to be faced, I feel like we're on an upward swing, like a ray of hope has penetrated the darkness. We really needed that.
I don't want to get involved in the Spike Wars, but I want to say that I do feel for the B/S shippers. Regardless of how any of us feels about B/S, we all know what it is to invest ourselves emotionally in a relationship...you'd think that would inform our reactions to B/Sers. You'd think.
However I can't help pointing out one thing--Warduke wrote: "If Spike were to attack Willow or Tara, I wonder how many people on this board would still come to his defense or try to apologize for him?"
Spike has attacked Willow. He was going to kill her in "The Initiative"; the only thing that stopped him was the chip. He was also quite violent towards her in "Lovers Walk". I'm just sayin'.
Oh yeah, one thing that bugged: Sam said that Willow was the only person she ever met who had the strength to quit magick. What about the other people in Will's Spellcasters Anonymous group?
quote:
Originally posted by PF26:
They might not be tying Wiccans to the stake anymore and setting them alight
No one has ever tied a Wiccan to a stake and set them alight. Wicca was invented in the 20th century. The vast majority of those who were executed in Europe and America for practicing witchcraft were not witches in any modern understanding of the word. Please don't get me wrong, I respect your faith--I seriously studied Paganism myself for several years. But you do yourself, your fellow Wiccans, and those who died in such a horrible manner a great disservice when you misunderstand or misrepresent the facts in this way.
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"We are in the love. We are...the in love ones. Lesbian, in love with merry-type."
[This message has been edited by Dazey (edited February 27, 2002).]
quote:by JMC » Wed Feb 27, 2002 4:50 pm
My guess is that he was offered money from the real Doctor to keep some eggs in his crypt and he accepted it without knowing the true danger of the eggs.
This should be explained further at the end of the season otherwise it is just plain bad writing.
by Eyes Without A Face » Wed Feb 27, 2002 4:54 pm
"BLONDIE!!!"
While the music plays
Na Na Na Na Na
DA
DA
DA...
As she shoots the rope and the poor old sod falls unceremoniously into his crypt to 'live' and fight another day.
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Wallpapers
Illegitimi non carborundum!
[This message has been edited by Eyes Without A Face (edited February 27, 2002).]
by Epicurus » Wed Feb 27, 2002 5:33 pm
I will not delve too deep in my opinion on the Spike discussion as I will probably end up repeating what others have already expressed.
My POV simplified:
Spike is in love and love can make you do crazy things, as for example... helping humans even though you are a bloodsucking vampire with no moral sense.
As for the Spike/William ordeal, I think Buffy used the name "William" to add more bite, cause that’s what us girls do, throw in as much pain as possible in a break up.
*glares at the cynic within her*
Maybe it was to give Spike a more human-like quality, but I don’t buy it.
Yea for Buffy.
by BBOvenGuy » Wed Feb 27, 2002 5:54 pm
quote:
Originally posted by JMC:
My guess is that he was offered money from the real Doctor to keep some eggs in his crypt and he accepted it without knowing the true danger of the eggs.This should be explained further at the end of the season otherwise it is just plain bad writing.
Okay, while trying not to get back into the question of whether or not Spike is The Doctor, I do have to say one thing. As a writer myself, it really ticks me off when people scream "This is just plain bad writing," when a story doesn't go the direction they want it to go. There's a difference between poor writing quality and writing that says something other than what you as a reader or audience member want it to say.
If this issue isn't explained further (and I highly doubt it will be), I think that will be a pretty clear sign that Spike was The Doctor all along and he simply did a bad job of it with the eggs. That's the simplest explanation and the only one that fits all the facts that are in evidence.
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Remember the Kitten Board Mantra: "Joss is nuts about Tara, Willow/Tara and Amber!"
(...and Marti's rather fond of them, too...)
by Caesar » Wed Feb 27, 2002 6:06 pm
quote:
Originally posted by BBOvenGuy:
Okay, while trying not to get back into the question of whether or not Spike is The Doctor, I do have to say one thing. As a writer myself, it really ticks me off when people scream "This is just plain bad writing," when a story doesn't go the direction they want it to go. There's a difference between poor writing quality and writing that says something other than what you as a reader or audience member want it to say.If this issue isn't explained further (and I highly doubt it will be), I think that will be a pretty clear sign that Spike was The Doctor all along and he simply did a bad job of it with the eggs. That's the simplest explanation and the only one that fits all the facts that are in evidence.
They did not explain why he had the eggs. If the money already exchanged hands and Spike was the doctor he would be rich. What use would he have for the money? Where is the money? Who exactly did he plan to sell the eggs to?
These are the questions that when left unanswered, are examples of bad writing.
by BBOvenGuy » Wed Feb 27, 2002 6:21 pm
In this case, the point of the story was that Buffy - who is the star of the show, remember - needed a reminder of who Spike was, what he was capable of doing, and what that meant for her and what she was doing to her life by being with him. The details of how Spike got the eggs, how he knew who to sell them to, etc., aren't important to that point. All that was needed was for Buffy to know that Spike was still a vampire capable of doing evil. Nothing more.
If the series was called The Platinum Blond Vampire Hour instead of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, I might be inclined to agree that there were things left out. From Buffy's perspective, however, what we saw is all we needed to see.
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Remember the Kitten Board Mantra: "Joss is nuts about Tara, Willow/Tara and Amber!"
(...and Marti's rather fond of them, too...)
by wiccie » Wed Feb 27, 2002 6:28 pm
[This message has been edited by wiccie (edited February 27, 2002).]
by KathleenWolf » Wed Feb 27, 2002 6:28 pm
quote:
Originally posted by Caesar:
They did not explain why he had the eggs. If the money already exchanged hands and Spike was the doctor he would be rich. What use would he have for the money? Where is the money? Who exactly did he plan to sell the eggs to?
These are the questions that when left unanswered, are examples of bad writing.
Actually I think those are examples of unnecessary plot elements in terms of what "As You Were" was trying to accomplish... and actually Riley/Sam answered at least one of the questions as they distinctly said a foreign government would love to have their own Savoi (sp?) demon...
as for money... international smugglers aren't well known for getting payment before the goods are delivered... and indeed I'm sure the eggs are worth alot of money, but the obvious plot extension is that Spike aka "The Doctor' is only the first supplier in a long line before the goods get to a purchaser... forgive me for this example but aka: drug selling... starts with a supplier and moves down the evil food chain to the street
and for what use for the money... blood, smokes, impressing Buffy... Spike and a fist load of money would not be a lost equation.
As a writer myself and trying to look at the episode objectivly... with the basic goals being Buffy's mental realization that Spike is Spike, who might love her but who she can not love for various reasons... the future of the now blown up eggs isn't a loose end.
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"Are all you witches gay?" Buffy - Walking In Circles
by Caesar » Wed Feb 27, 2002 6:36 pm
quote:
Originally posted by BBOvenGuy:
One of my favorite sayings is by Ray Bradbury - "The artist learns what to leave out." Good writing is about making choices. You can't possibly say everything there is to say about a subject, especially in television where there are so many time restrictions. A good writer learns to identify the primary point of the story and then keep only the things that apply to that point.In this case, the point of the story was that Buffy - who is the star of the show, remember - needed a reminder of who Spike was, what he was capable of doing, and what that meant for her and what she was doing to her life by being with him. The details of how Spike got the eggs, how he knew who to sell them to, etc., aren't important to that point. All that was needed was for Buffy to know that Spike was still a vampire capable of doing evil. Nothing more.
If the series was called The Platinum Blond Vampire Hour instead of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, I might be inclined to agree that there were things left out. From Buffy's perspective, however, what we saw is all we needed to see.
Thats a simplistic easy way out, as a viewer I want to know what Spike's motivation was. Was he planning to destroy the world, start world war III, make a really big omelet, or get money for Buffy. It is too easy to just say he is evil, thats why. Every action Warren has taken during the past year has been understandable because they illustrate Warren's motivations. It is not a sign of good writing to say that Spike did this just because he is evil. In Becoming they made Spike's motivation for allying himself Buffy crystal clear. They didn't just say he was evil but he had a change of heart. That in my opinion was a sign of good writing. If they do not bring up the eggs again I will take that part of As Your Were as a sign of bad writing.
quote:by GODisTigger » Wed Feb 27, 2002 6:39 pm
quote:
Originally posted by Dazey:
Oh yeah, one thing that bugged: Sam said that Willow was the only person she ever met who had the strength to quit magick. What about the other people in Will's Spellcasters Anonymous group?
Willow was the only person that Sam ever met with the strength, when would she have met Willow's Spellcasters Anonymous group?
quote:
Originally posted by Caesar:
They did not explain why he had the eggs
He had the eggs to sell them.
If the money already exchanged hands and Spike was the doctor he would be rich.
If he hadn't sold them yet then he wouldn't have the money. Which makes sense since he still had the eggs in his possession.
What use would he have for the money?
What use does ANYONE have for money?
Where is the money?
In the potential buyer's pockets.
Who exactly did he plan to sell the eggs to?
Riley and Sam mentioned that some foreign powers would love to get their hands on one of those demons. Maybe someone has a thing for exotic demon omeletes. Why does it matter exactly who he'd be selling them to?
These are the questions that when left unanswered, are examples of bad writing.
To me, they are questions that really didn't matter. All we needed to know is that there was a person trying to sell demon eggs on the blackmarket and it happened to be Spike.
D
[This message has been edited by GODisTigger (edited February 27, 2002).]
[This message has been edited by GODisTigger (edited February 27, 2002).]
quote:quote:by BBOvenGuy » Wed Feb 27, 2002 6:42 pm
quote:
Originally posted by Caesar:
Thats a simplistic easy way out, as a viewer I want to know what Spike's motivation was. Was he planning to destroy the world, start world war III, make a really big omelet, or get money for Buffy. It is too easy to just say he is evil, thats why. Every action Warren has taken during the past year has been understandable because they illustrate Warren's motivations. It is not a sign of good writing to say that Spike did this just because he is evil. In Becoming they made Spike's motivation for allying himself Buffy crystal clear. They didn't just say he was evil but he had a change of heart. That in my opinion was a sign of good writing. If they do not bring up the eggs again I will take that part of As Your Were as a sign of bad writing.
Yeah, fine. Whatever.
This is the part where I have to go away before Len comes along and slaps me. And yet for some reason I stupidly soldier on.
The only reason I can think of for putting Spike's motivations into the story, or for wanting to see what Spike's motivations are, would be to give Spike an excuse for what he did - to let Spike off the hook. I think the point the show was trying to make, though, is that there is no way off the hook. Spike is evil - Riley says it. Spike himself says it. Buffy needed to be reminded of it. End of story.
Okay, really leaving now. I'm behind on my writing for the day because I've gotten myself into these discussions...
[This message has been edited by BBOvenGuy (edited February 27, 2002).]
quote:by supermus » Wed Feb 27, 2002 6:43 pm
by wiccie » Wed Feb 27, 2002 6:50 pm
You're my hero, but I've aleady edited one post and deleted another to Caesar. Instead, I am hanging this sign (I wish I had big, shiny fonts like Dr.G, but here goes):
PLEASE DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS
oh, and better hang this one up, too, so people don't get lost...
SPIKE APOLOGISTS' BOARD 3 mi. EAST ----->
len, I am dropping trou and accept my spanking.
[This message has been edited by wiccie (edited February 27, 2002).]
by BBOvenGuy » Wed Feb 27, 2002 6:54 pm
by kitten scout » Wed Feb 27, 2002 6:57 pm
by KathleenWolf » Wed Feb 27, 2002 7:07 pm
quote:
Originally posted by Caesar:
Thats a simplistic easy way out, as a viewer I want to know what Spike's motivation was. Was he planning to destroy the world, start world war III, make a really big omelet, or get money for Buffy. It is too easy to just say he is evil, thats why. Every action Warren has taken during the past year has been understandable because they illustrate Warren's motivations. It is not a sign of good writing to say that Spike did this just because he is evil. In Becoming they made Spike's motivation for allying himself Buffy crystal clear. They didn't just say he was evil but he had a change of heart. That in my opinion was a sign of good writing. If they do not bring up the eggs again I will take that part of As Your Were as a sign of bad writing.
Query: How has Warren's motivations been explained along the way this season? I for one have been watching it completely baffled by many of his actions... his purpose in general has elluded me for one.
As for the specifics of Spike's motivations what do we gain in a plot sense from that knowledge? The eggs are gone and there is nothing to gain from them. The point of interest to the other characters is that he had them, and I believe with the track record of Spike's usual hellmouth knowledge he would know what they were, a slight speculation but still.
How is it simplistic to leave a trail of plot when there is nowhere for that plot to go? The eggs are gone... spending airtime explaining the diabolical plan Spike had schemed up would be purposeless for plot development... and the most weighted point of that would be is for what 'positive/unevil' reason could Spike have a half dozen eggs in his crypt for? As we know he drinks blood... i doubt the unevil really big omelet is a believable option.
and i hope I haven't crossed any lines in discussion... if so I would appreciate any of the moderators pointing out that I have... smile... don't like to cause trouble
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"Are all you witches gay?" Buffy - Walking In Circles
by Dazey » Wed Feb 27, 2002 7:14 pm
quote:
Originally posted by GODisTigger:
Willow was the only person that Sam ever met with the strength, when would she have met Willow's Spellcasters Anonymous group?
That wasn't my point; perhaps I should have been clearer. The purpose of Sam's line (for the writer) was to engender in Willow a realization of the great strength she possesses, outside of magick. And I'm certainly not denying that she does. But since Willow knows other people who have quit magick, that particular statement really wouldn't provide the effect the writer wants.
quote:by Caesar » Wed Feb 27, 2002 7:17 pm
quote:
Originally posted by KathleenWolf:
Query: How has Warren's motivations been explained along the way this season? I for one have been watching it completely baffled by many of his actions... his purpose in general has elluded me for one.
He wanted his old girlfriend back so he used magic to make her his own sex slave. He wanted money to finance his operations so he gets a demon to distract the cops at a bank while they seal the cash. He frames Buffy for the murder of his girlfriend because he does not want to go to jail.
Spike wants to sell demon eggs to foreign governments because???????? I can't recall Spike ever lusting after large sums of money.
[This message has been edited by Caesar (edited February 27, 2002).]
[This message has been edited by Caesar (edited February 27, 2002).]
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