Discussion – S6E15 – "As You Were"

[Dazey]

Dude, what show have you been watching?

[KathleenWolf]

quote:

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Originally posted by Caesar:
He wanted his old girlfriend back so he used magic to make her his own sex slave. He wanted money to finance his operations so he gets a demon to distract the cops at a bank while they seal the cash. He frames Buffy for the murder of his girlfriend because he does not want to go to jail.

Spike wants to sell demon eggs to foregn governments because???????? I can't recall Spike ever lusting after large sums of money.

[This message has been edited by Caesar (edited February 27, 2002).]

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eronously debating the warren thing here but if the boy is genius enough to a) build a fully working AI robot b) a invisibility ray c) a freezing gun etc etc... I don't see why he just wouldn't be making heaps of money and getting all the girlies as a genius inventor... doesn't seem like arch-nemeis to the slayer is the only road he had open to him or the most successful

if Spike is not money oriented why since the chip is he always bartering information for money/smokes/blood? and as I mentioned he is the first in a chain... his payout might not be as big but the fact that he is also in need of financial help has been an established fact on the show

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"Are all you witches gay?" Buffy - Walking In Circlesquote:

[Wiccagrrl]

quote:

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Who exactly did he plan to sell the eggs to?

Riley and Sam mentioned that some foreign powers would love to get their hands on one of those demons. Maybe someone has a thing for exotic demon omeletes. Why does it matter exactly who he'd be selling them to?

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FWIW (which probably isn't much, but anyway...) Sam and Riley say that the reasons these "foreign powers" would love to get their hands on the the demons/demon eggs is that they would make an incredibly powerful weapon. Drop one or ten of them over a heavily populated area, and with the speed that they reproduce it would wipe the population out. So, what Spike was really doing was trafficking in weapons of mass destruction. Doesn't really matter *why* IMO. May end up mattering who else was involved, but that's probably unlikely to be a major issue either.

[This message has been edited by Wiccagrrl (edited February 27, 2002).]quote:

[Hugin]

Dazey, it might be that Sam's experience was simply too limited, that she had no idea how weird and rough life could be in Sunnydale, how many people in a single community might be in Willow's shoes. Or it could be that Willow's "Spellcaster's Anonymous" friends are in deep trouble.

But I agree with you (if I'm successfully grokking your point), it's a double edged statement, both complimentary and worrying. It could be taken to say that Willow is very special, or it could just drive home how long her odds are.

-len

[Zahir]

Has anyone else noticed how Tara's influence is making itself felt? Subtly but surely, it is there.

Of course, there's the whole Willow-Will-Do-Anything-To-Get-Her-Back thing (well, wouldn't you?). But note how Tara's the person Buffy could finally tell about her and Spike? My own view is that Buffy shagging Spike was something she needed to do, a step in reclaiming life. Simply, he made her feel alive--in a whole range of ways. For awhile. It was temporary, as well as unfair in the long run (to them both). Now she realizes that, in her bones, and has acted on that knowledge. And she couldn't without first confiding in someone. She told Tara--who (IMO) did exactly the right thing in refusing to judge her, even when Buffy begged her to.

Likewise, I've a feeling that Tara's defense of Willow during the birthday party was a nice little lesson to Xander and Anya. A lesson about love (ironically, from a member of a couple broken up--temporarily). And last night, we see Xander and Anya dealing a bit better with things.

Even when Tara isn't there, she's making her presence felt. Myself, I've a theory that Tara will also eventually have an interesting relationship with Spike as the show progresses (no, not that kind!)

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"O let my name be in the Book of Love.
If it be there, I care not of
That other book Above...
Strike it out! Or write it in anew.
But let it be in the Book of Love!"
--Omar Kyam

[GODisTigger]

quote:

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Originally posted by Dazey:
That wasn't my point; perhaps I should have been clearer. The purpose of Sam's line (for the writer) was to engender in Willow a realization of the great strength she possesses, outside of magick. And I'm certainly not denying that she does. But since Willow knows other people who have quit magick, that particular statement really wouldn't provide the effect the writer wants.

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Ah yes I misunderstood you. I'd tell you what I think but I can't put my thoughts into words.

D

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They have Dial-A-Prayer for atheists now. You call up but nobody answers.quote:

[wiccie]

Thank you, thank you, thank you Zahir for getting us back to what this board is about!

Yes, I love that Tara is the creamy moral and emotional center of the group....Mmmmm....Creamy Tara center.

Really, what other character (main or supporting) gets so much mention when they're offscreen or not in the ep at all?

[This message has been edited by wiccie (edited February 27, 2002).]

[Hugin]

Spike needs money for cigarettes, Weetabix, blood, clothing, poker stakes from the pet store, whatever items he decorates his crypt with, hair bleach, fingernail polish, etc, plus he's expressed once or twice the idea that he'd be willing to help out Buffy financially.

Early on in the "chipped semi-ally Spike" episodes in fourth season, there were several explicit scenes detailing his desire to trade information or physical assistance for money, usually money from an annoyed Giles. The money (or things people can buy with money) that he doesn't earn from demon egg selling or whatever, they've shown, again explicitly, he largely steals. From the magic store. From Buffy's basement. From people or demons he manages to intimidate/kill around town. The central point being, of course he desires money.

No, Spike isn't an international arms dealer, he's not having great sums of money wired to his account in Geneva. He's a guy in a warehouse with a few crates of liberated Stinger missles or stolen fissionable material in a former Soviet state, who knows a guy who knows a guy, looking to make a deal to someone else.

-len

[xita]

The magic thing, I posted earlier but people ignored it, Sam said, quit dark magic. There is nothing that says that the people in the magic anonymous group aren't addicted to normal magic, or don't have the power to conjure dark magic. I don't know anyway there seemed to be a distinction in Sam's statement.

Spike, I am at a loss. I don't understand. He loves Buffy? But he doesn't trust her enough to actually tell her about the eggs before she mentions it, doesn't tell her once she asks. He knows it's wrong and Buffy won't like it, that's the only explanation for that. He's not a baby, he's a vampire, hundreds of years old with as much working knowledge of demons as Anya. HE has way more underworld connections than any of the scoobies. He knew what those things were. His admission to Buffy, you know what I am, is enough to know that his motivations weren't good.

I think this will in the end as Marti has said be good for both of them. Buffy can get back to what makes her the special slayer and maybe Spike can at least gain some self respect back. I think that he can stop being love's bitch. Women have run his life and it's time he stops allowing that and either be the demon he is, or seek some change (and I mean way more than a chip and doing good things for selfish motivations).

Ok, on to other things and please know that I care not about weight issues (being a big girl myself). Xander seems larger, and I think they are dressing him to make him seem even more so. And what got me was all the chips he was eating in this episode. It seems like the weight gain is part of the plot, like his image of aging xander. Unhappy pot bellied, old guy. I don't know, it's a thought.

[tommo]

Ah Xita, I too have noticed this bulking up of Xander. But I was too afraid to say anything, heh heh.

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Sweetie...I'm a fag.

[The Rose]

quote:

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Women have run his life, and it's time he stops allowing it that and either be the demon he is, or seek some changes(and I mean way more than a chip and doing good things for selfish reasons)

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Well said Xita, and I want to say if Spike decides to try and redeem himself I may respect him more, but seeing that the show seems to be ending next season, it will not be enough time to prove he is good enough for Buffy. I really hope they are over FOR GOOD, but it would be okay if they remain friends and/or allies, or Spike could just be the reluctant informant and Buffy's banter partner(which I prefer more). Angel, unlike Spike, has spent a whole lot of time atoning for the wrongs of Angelus.

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Tara: My heart doesn't stutter.

Tara: Willow, I got so lost.
Willow: I found you. I will always find you.

Tara: Nobody messes with my girl!

[This message has been edited by The Rose (edited February 27, 2002).]quote:

[darth_tuna_queen]

I personally HATED Sam... I couldn't stand her... she was wayyyyyyyyy too perky for her own good!! Riley, I was both pleased and rather disapointed in him... I mean, he forgot to tell Buffy the basics of the mission. I did, like everyone else, giggle at the mention of Tara... thought that was a great reference... I'm sad that Buffy and Spike are over.. I honestly thought they were a pretty darn cute couple!!! BUT THE THOUGHT THAT WILLOW AND TARA WILL PROBABLY GET BACK TOGETHER MAKES ME SOOOOOO HAPPY!!!!!! *bounces* BUT SAM DROVE ME CRAZY!!!!!! SHE WAS SO IRRITATING!!!!! All like "I'm better than you"... and the actress reminded me of Amber Benson.. I had to keep blinking and going "that's not AB... or is it?" So I didn't think great things of the episode..

I thought Anya and Xander were GREAT, but really disconnected from everything going on, but I guess that's just part of the script... they're sorta involved in their own little world... and if the darn website were up I could go SEE the stinky preview!! *growls* bahh it's not up yet anyways...

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YOU HAVE A CATNIP PROBLEM!!!!!!

[JodiMnstr]

Xita, I saw your mention of Sam's comment about Dark Magic but didn't have time to reply earlier.

This is actually something that's been in the back of my mind as I've read discussions about Willow and her addiction. It's been pointed out by some that Dark Magic seems to be more about controlling the forces of magic and bending them to your will for selfish purposes. I think they've drawn a pretty clear distinction between the kind of magic that Tara uses, which is generally motivated by a need to defend (with the exception of the spell she used in Family) or benvolent works for the sake of progressing in magical study (like many of her spells with Willow during Season 4), and the spells that Willow was getting into specifically in the beginning of Season 6, which were often either frivolous or motivated by selfish reasons. Prior to Willow delving into Dark Magic to exact her revenge on Glory, Willow's spells for selfish reasons often failed to work or backfired quite dramatically (Something Blue, for example), while those that were selflessly motivated for the good of all typically succeeded (Breaking the protective barrier in Choices or reuniting Xander in The Replacement). So in essence the use of magic was self correcting, or tended to follow the idea that I've heard mentioned as The rule of Three where whatever you do comes back to you threefold, so it's important that your intention be pure.

It seems to me that at the point that Willow began tapping into Dark magic to force her will to be carried out, two things happened...she became significantly more powerful, and her spells were more frequently successful despite what the underlying intention was. And therein lies the subtle trap...as with many things that seem to come too easily and don't exact a noticable price, it becomes very easy to be caught up in the rush and ignore the danger. Afterall, it's considered Dark Magic for a reason. And this "substance" would have a particular appeal to Willow because of her self esteem issues and how the magic helped her feel better about who she was and what she had to offer. She also didn't have the benefit that Tara had of a structured approach to learning magic and understanding the need to respect it. So, once Willow crossed the line, per se, I don't think it's particularly surprising that it escalated out of her control.

Now, as for what Sam said about the two powerful shamans that are no longer around...I would speculate that they were in a similar position of feeling they could justify using the Dark Magic because of the power it gave them and how it enhanced their ability to contribute to the work of the team. However, they didn't have a point where they hit bottom or anything to cause them to realize the price that was being exacted for their using that type of magic, and it ended up destroying them. I believe that it's Willow's inherent nature to feel love and compassion for the people in her life and when that came in conflict with the results of her use of magic, it woke her up to the danger of what she was doing. I also think it's very important that she made the decision to quit because she recognized her responsibility for what was happening and didn't do it just to try to keep Tara. I agree with Sam that Willow was strong and it's that strength that has served her well as she's gone through the process of dealing with her addiction. Hearing Sam lay it out as she did will hopefully help Willow own what she has managed to accomplish.

One other thing that could come out of the show drawing the distinction between "white" magic (for want of a better description) and Dark Magic, is I could conceivably see Tara working with Willow in the future and helping her to begin to work magic again, but more in the fashion that Tara has learned to do magic. It doesn't seem that this type of magic is addicting or destructive.

Okay....that's probably quite enough rambling from me. Hope it made some sense.

[This message has been edited by JodiMnstr (edited February 27, 2002).]

[Lax Scrutiny]

-About the Spike/Doctor thing, if you were losing the woman you loved, and could save the relationship simply by telling the truth about who was paying you, wouldn't you tell? If Spike wasn't the Doctor, he certainly knew who was, but he said nothing, and lost Buffy for it. It frankly doesn't make any sense to me that he is not the Doctor.

A few other bits....

-Riley: What bugged me about him was all the paramilitary babble about kevlar and stuff. There were several minutes of available dialogue for interesting character interaction, and that's all we got? This is why Riley always struck me as so one-dimensional. Some more talk/reaction about Buffy's death, Joyce' death, etc. would have been great. Riley should have felt sorrow for Joyce especially, but we didn't get to see it. The writers hardly ever let us see Riley feeling anything that isn't directly about Buffy, which is a drag, and why I like other characters much better.

-Sam: Peace Corps to Black Ops in ten easy lessons? They could have given her a bit better backstory that was easier to believe, and I would have liked her better. No one starts from scratch, and then goes toe to toe with a big hulking demon like that with only a year of training. Xander's been at it for 6 years now, could he have slugged a demon like that?

-I liked the scene between Willow and Sam about magic and the shamans, but the dialogue came across a little awkward. It would have felt better somehow if Willow had just left the room, upset but not saying anything, and Sam approached her gently after, and asked what she'd said wrong. Then Willow explains the addiction, and the scene becomes more emotionally intimate, and their friendship at the end has more power to it. I've known a few recovering addicts, and I've not known any to blurt it out like that in a room full people. It just seemed a bit forced....?

-As much as I'd like to see Willow and Tara back together soon, notice Buffy and Willow are both single together for the first time in ages? I'm not alluding to a sexual fling, although there'd be nothing wrong with that, but finally a chance for a few scenes focusing on their friendship. That's something I really miss.

[xita]

quote:

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Originally posted by Lax Scrutiny:
As much as I'd like to see Willow and Tara back together soon, notice Buffy and Willow are both single together for the first time in ages? I'm not alluding to a sexual fling, although there'd be nothing wrong with that, but finally a chance for a few scenes focusing on their friendship. That's something I really miss.

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Unfortunately you'll find this to be a very unpopular opinion here and one not supported by the board at all a buffy/willow fling that is. Though the friendship is something I maintain is key to the show and to the well being of the characters. I think when things go wrong it is because buffy and willow aren't talking to each other about their lives.quote:

[Rally]

quote:

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Originally posted by Lax Scrutiny:

-As much as I'd like to see Willow and Tara back together soon, notice Buffy and Willow are both single together for the first time in ages? I'm not alluding to a sexual fling, although there'd be nothing wrong with that, but finally a chance for a few scenes focusing on their friendship. That's something I really miss.

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And again, I say, HUHNNN?

Willow's singles days are numbered if she has anything to say about it. Hence the happy.

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"Everyone's getting spanked but me."quote:

[willow420]

quote:

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Originally posted by Lax Scrutiny:
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-As much as I'd like to see Willow and Tara back together soon, notice Buffy and Willow are both single together for the first time in ages? I'm not alluding to a sexual fling, although there'd be nothing wrong with that, but finally a chance for a few scenes focusing on their friendship. That's something I really miss.

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One word:

EEEEEEEWWWWWWWWW!!!!!

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A.K.A. Liz

"Did you try looking in the sofa in hell?" Willow in Dopplegangland.
*************************
"We prefer Justice Demon, okay? FYI?"
Halfrek in Older and Far Awayquote:

[tommo]

quote:

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Originally posted by Lax Scrutiny:
As much as I'd like to see Willow and Tara back together soon, notice Buffy and Willow are both single together for the first time in ages? I'm not alluding to a sexual fling, although there'd be nothing wrong with that, but finally a chance for a few scenes focusing on their friendship. That's something I really miss.

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Nothing wrong with a sexual fling between Buffy and Willow?

Hmmm. Okay then.

Did you take your pills tonight?

A few points:

1) Willow is Buffy's best friend. Best. Friend.

2) Never ever has there ever been any kind of sexual tension between them. Never. Ever.

3) Buffy's straight. Poker straight.

4) Buffy's straight.

5) Um...Buffy's straight.

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Sweetie...I'm a fag.quote:

[Warduke]

quote:

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Originally posted by Lax Scrutiny:
As much as I'd like to see Willow and Tara back together soon, notice Buffy and Willow are both single together for the first time in ages? I'm not alluding to a sexual fling, although there'd be nothing wrong with that...

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Nothing wrong with that???

Well if you're a W/T shipper, then there IS something very wrong with that.quote:

[dreiser]

ruth... buffy's gay with FAITH.

FAITH!!!

nic

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firecrackers, the silent killer

[June]

I'm coming in late, but someone upthread summed up feelings pretty well...

quote:

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Willow happy.
Buffy happy.
Me happy.
Tara, oh happy Tara where are you? I know you are there somewhere.

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I agree with everyone who commented on how cute and happy Willow was this ep. Her big smile at the bronze when she said she was talking to Tara again lifted my heart. Now, I'm 99.9% sure they're going to get back together by the end of the season (not a spoiler). Plus, Willow was funny!

I was prepared to dislike Sam based on the few spoilers I'd read, but honestly she wasn't so bad. She was nice, smart, strong, and not obnoxious at all. I think Sam and Riley make a good couple.

The breakup scene was perfect in terms of writing and acting. I liked how Buffy was so matter-of-fact and honest while breaking it off with Spike. She wasn't malicious about it but treated him like a person, not a monster. I'm proud of Buffy for realizing how her behavior and actions were destroying her and how she took action to get her life back in order. It seems she realized that she deserves better than being in a relationship with someone whom she couldn't love and which made her feel ashamed.

So overall, episode good.

edited to add Buffy and Willow? Interesting, but I think I like Willow and Tara better.

[This message has been edited by June (edited February 28, 2002).]

[This message has been edited by June (edited February 28, 2002).]quote:

[AutumnT]

quote:

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Originally posted by Lax Scrutiny:
notice Buffy and Willow are both single together for the first time in ages? I'm not alluding to a sexual fling, although there'd be nothing wrong with that

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Except for the whole Buffy's straight and Willow is in love with Tara and would never sleep with Buffy thing. So actually there's a few things wrong with it.

Edited to add: As the kittens converge like a pack of wild dogs. LOL. Uh, talk about a quick mass posting.

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Autumn

I have the sudden urge to dedicate my productive cooperation.

[This message has been edited by AutumnT (edited February 28, 2002).]quote:

[tommo]

*slavers, pulls unrelentingly against the link chain around her throat*

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Sweetie...I'm a fag.

[Spinner]

A few thoughts:

This episode was Buffy's 'Wrecked'. She finally admitted to herself that she hit bottom and needs to do something about it.

Sam sounds just like Tara. They have similar intonation and delivery. In the scene with Willow in the kitchen, there was one shot focussed on Willow with Sam speaking off screen. I thought for a second that Tara had come in, until they cut over to Sam. I was disappointed.

On the BBC site, they call Riley the stupidest man on television. In this episode, when they are at the dam, he ducks around the end of a large pipe, but then he walks right in front of an open door without even looking in, and, of course, that's where the demon is. And he got Buffy to help him find a demon and didn't tell her not to kill it? She's called the 'Slayer' not the 'Finder'.

Timeline: At the beginning of the show, Buffy is closing down the Doublemeat Palace. Then she walks through the cemetery and dusts a vamp, then stops to have a tryst with Spike and she is still home in time to tell Dawn that she can go to the Bronze if she is home by eleven. How early does the DMP close? Most fast food places are open until 11 or later.

I loved the part with Willow getting all giddy thinking about Tara. But I feel like we should be getting more on how they are doing while apart. Willow crying over losing Tara. Willow looking longingly at a picture of Tara in her room. Willow lying in bed thinking of Tara while she slowly.... Uh, is it too much to ask for more scenes like that?

[BBOvenGuy]

quote:

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Originally posted by Spinner:
Sam sounds just like Tara. They have similar intonation and delivery. In the scene with Willow in the kitchen, there was one shot focussed on Willow with Sam speaking off screen. I thought for a second that Tara had come in, until they cut over to Sam. I was disappointed.

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Whew! I thought it was just me. I actually left that scene off my sounds page because I thought Sam sounded too much like Tara.

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Remember the Kitten Board Mantra: "Joss is nuts about Tara, Willow/Tara and Amber!"
(...and Marti's rather fond of them, too...)quote:

[tommo]

Sorry. Didn't think they sounded anything like one another. But I'm open to persuasion if the time is right. Perhaps I'd better review. But I thought Sam's speech pattern was a little odd...not sure what it was exactly.

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Sweetie...I'm a fag.

[Lax Scrutiny]

Jeepers, I guess the part where I wrote "I don't mean sexually" just went over everyone's head.

Although I take your points. Getting back together is tricky business, Willow shouldn't be doing anything dodgy.

Still want to see more B/W FRIENDSHIP though.

[BBOvenGuy]

It was that scene in particular, in the kitchen, where I thought Sam sounded like Tara. Not so much elsewhere.

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Remember the Kitten Board Mantra: "Joss is nuts about Tara, Willow/Tara and Amber!"
(...and Marti's rather fond of them, too...)

[invisigoth]

I could never see a Buffy/Willow pairing. I agree with the above posts in saying that these two are best friends with not a ounce of sexual chemistry between them. But there seemed to be a lot of sexual tension between Buffy and Faith. She's definitely been portrayed as straight on the show. However, I don't think it is beyond the relm of possiblity to think Buffy might have a fling with a woman.

Point? Hmmm. I'm not sure I have one. Sorry. I just think the lines of sexuality are fuzzier than the mainstream culture will admit.

Anyway, I'm just waiting for those crazy witches to get back together.

Oh, I just thought of a question: If Willow can't do magic anymore, should she still be considered a witch?

[Dr.G]

quote:

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Originally posted by Lax Scrutiny:
Jeepers, I guess the part where I wrote "I don't mean sexually" just went over everyone's head.

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Oh no it did not go over everyone's head, we also read the rest of that sentence:

quote:

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Originally posted by Lax Scrutiny:

I'm not alluding to a sexual fling, although there'd be nothing wrong with that

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It's the "there'd be nothing wrong with that" that is a big NO on this W/T board. But some of the kitties here subtly pointed that out already. I am just a little late as usual. There is always one lame limping member in a pack. I only get the scraps. Darn.

Bob, despite Len's eloquence I will not stop hounding you. Sorry. You are still my number one.

Hmmm anyway, I am really looking forward to seeing this ep. I have not had time to download it yet, but after having read this thread and the complete spoiler thread I am thinking I will like this episode as much as I can without both Willow and Tara in it. Looking forward to giddy Willow. quote:quote: