General Season 6 Spoilers - Part 11

[BigMac]

How about the troika time device use in Life Serial buffy and xander save jonathan and andrew from willow they will help something to think about.

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Tara:Assume Crash Positions

[Epicurus]

quote:

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Originally posted by Kendahl897:
But the problem with that theory is that next season starts up timeline wise about 4 or 5 months ahead...

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Ok I'm not the most logical person on the planet.

It would be interesting if the invisibility ray showed up at the end of the season just for continuity’s sake. I can’t see it having as great a purpose as the troll hammer though. I think Willow will turn out to be more powerful than Glory.
There seems to be way too many parallels to season 5. quote:

[Kendahl897]

I agree. But what they seem to be battling is the worst aspects of themselves. But I have no doubt in the end, it will turn out okay.

[All4W/T]

Ok so my theory of the demon "venom" being used by Warren on the scoobies isnt plausible because Anya seems to be the catalyst..Hmmm Is the theory that Warren makes the wish a solid one??

If it is why would Anya want anything to do for Warren?? I know she is or will be a vengance demon, but they still seem to have some semblance of self and i cant imagine her granting him a wish for any reason..She appears to empathize with the women that make the wishes..

Is the only reason she would do that because, as someone said, she cant make the wish, it has to be someone else?? How is Warren going to help Anya exact her vengance on Xander?? If the idea is that a wish comes into play to start the events happening, what about this scenario:

Tara dies before the wish is made, Willow makes the wish because she doesnt want to use magic for her revenge..The wish doesnt turn out like it's supposed to (remembering Cordelias and Dawns wishes and how they ended up), so Willow resorts to magic anyway..

I think Anya is so close to the scoobies she wouldnt want to see Willow gone off the deep end, attacking her friends or whatever to get her black magic revenge on Warren..

Perhaps she kept some semblance of her humanity and doesnt want to see the wish distorted like Cordelias and Dawns..So she makes a humane decision and undoes the wish..Sacrificing herself in the process..

Just more food for thought..

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out and proud

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Epicurus
Willowhand


Posts: 310
Registered: Jul 2001 posted March 24, 2002 12:28               

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All4W/T,
How would that scenario bring Tara back?

IP: Logged

IP: LoggedEpicurusWillowhand


Posts: 310
Registered: Jul 2001 posted March 24, 2002 12:28               

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All4W/T,
How would that scenario bring Tara back?

IP: Logged

posted March 24, 2002 12:28                All4W/T,
How would that scenario bring Tara back?

[Epicurus]

All4W/T,
How would that scenario bring Tara back?

[Scarecrow]

People complain about lack of justice on Andrew and Jonathun and what they did. But Jonathun is a good guy at heart and Andrew, like Harmony before him, is just a sheep following the others.

It doesn't make up fro wqhat they did but then Xander is responsible for all the deaths in OMWF yet no ones brings this up again!

My hopes for S7... Tara title sequence and Jonathun as a semi-regular guy friend for xander who severely needs someone non-female to interact with!

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Trust In Joss

"Liberate tutemet ex inferis"

"Me and Willow always know how to find each other"

"Black mircles, dark wonders, another life of unknown pleasures"

"There are some corners of the Universe that have bred the most terrible things, things that stand against everything we believe in. They must be fought"

[BigMac]

The wish is granted in ep18 before tara gets shot. And the spoiler said it was granted to someone that could be anybody from Amy to Warren.

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Tara:Assume Crash Positions

[xita]

Jonathan has never been a good guy. Superstar is proof that he has always been willing to take the easy way out as long as he gets something out of it. His sudden conscience does nothing for me.

And Andrew? Please, his attitude in the last episode convinced me he knows exactly what he is doing.

Both of these sociopaths belong in jail. We all have insecurity issues and geek issues, but not all of resort to crime. I understands Willow's motivations a lot more than these losers.

[This message has been edited by xita (edited March 24, 2002).]

[Dr.G]

Amen Xita, and the fact that Xander has never been held accountable for some of his bigger mistakes, like the one you referred which caused a guy to burn to death always bothered me. But still, in no way does Xander compare to Jonathan or Andrew. There is no excuse for their actions. None.

[All4W/T]

And one other thought, there has to be a reason Anya decides to undo the wish, if its not because shes so fond of the scoobies, then perhaps because she sacrifices herself for Xander, how about this:

Willows wish causes a chain of events whereby something happens to Xander, wish unfulfilled.. Willow goes off on her black magic revenge..Double reason for Willow to be pissed..

Now we have Xander and Tara gone, somehow Anya would have to undo the wish in order to bring Xander back and in the process brings Tara back as well..

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out and proud

[BigMac]

You are right Xita about Jonathan but buffy save his life in season 3 & 4.

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Tara:Assume Crash Positions

[Scarecrow]

Sorry, guess i just always felt sorry for Jonathun. When he first appeared i used to identify with him a bit and i guess i haven't lost yet.

I mean he was gonna kill himself, he felt the world was agianst him, he has probelsm and deserves at leats some pity. He made a mistake in Superstar but really only wanted to be liked.

Warren and Andrew were finaly the 'friends' he was after and its always appeared to me he's been uneasy with any killing. He's had a tough break and though i don't condone his actions i understand them.

And Xander still DID summon sweet and was STILL repsonsible. I feel Jonathun can be forgiven like him and hope to see some kind of on screen redemption.

Warren is a bastard and Andrew is stupid. he is a sheep but that is no reaosn he should get away with stuff i suppose. but I still feel hope for Jonathun.

Hope i haven't offended anyway, just my views.

Scarecrow.

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Trust In Joss

"Liberate tutemet ex inferis"

"Me and Willow always know how to find each other"

"Black mircles, dark wonders, another life of unknown pleasures"

"There are some corners of the Universe that have bred the most terrible things, things that stand against everything we believe in. They must be fought"

[Tenetria]

Some info regarding the Ep. 20 spoiler "Willow tries to bring Tara back."

I posted this info a while back but it didn't make sense at the time, it now seems obvious that it's from episode 20.

Willow is confronted by a demon who tells her that she has no right to invoke the name of Osiris. He also tells her that it was ok to do so to bring Buffy back because she didn't die of natural causes.

[The Godfather]

Scarecrow: I'm about to commit mass blasphemy here but it'd been my hope that they'd have exited Spike and replaced him with Jonathon in the credits..that way they could have had a more solid Scooby Gang and Xand could have had a male friend..

I don't think Jonathon is evil. Selfish, immature andnot quite right sure..but hardly evil..

-Shawn

[xita]

Of course a gun is natural causes, not. I think maybe they mean that buffy died because of supernatural causes. There is a difference. When you say someone died of natural causes, it means health, disease, etc.

[spikeme]

I can see many reasons for Anya granting a wish to kill all the scoobies.

First of all, she has never been fully accepted into the group.
Anya has been the bunt of many jokes by all of them.
If Spike and Anya have sex, (per spoilers), both Buffy and Xander are going to be mighty pissed at her.
The Troika are the reason the scoobie gang find out about A/S, so she may pay them a visit herself.
Knowing that no one else will 'wish' anything bad on the scoobies, she may very well be at the point to grant a wish for Warren.

I think Warren would like to see them all dead. So, his wish would be something like: 'I wish all the Scoobies were killed'. Then at the season finale, Anya could break her amulet and revive everyone.

[The Big I-T]

quote:

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Originally posted by xita:
Of course a gun is natural causes, not. I think maybe they mean that buffy died because of supernatural causes. There is a difference. When you say someone died of natural causes, it means health, disease, etc.

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Interesting and important point Xita. Just underscores the fact that Tara's death -- occurring via a gunshot in the course of a wish gone bad -- is, in fact, a supernaturally inspired incident.

quote:

[tyche]

quote:

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Will the "Invisibility Ray" have a similar role to the "Troll Hammer" of Season 5?

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Yeah, I remember thinking the same when 'Gone' originally aired. I think it was Chekhov who said that, if you show a gun on stage in the first act of a play, you have to use it eventually or the audience will go slowly insane. (Okay, that's paraphrased, but it's roughly the principle.)
And also, the more I think about the 'death of Tara/evil Willow' stuff, the more I think that there has to be a reset of some kind. Because if Joss wanted to pull the Evil Lesbian/Dead Lesbian Cliche crap on us, he could've done it a lot earlier than this. Doubtless all the anti-W/T people will be jumping up and down with excitement, and this is the thing which really annoys me about this storyline: it's pandering to the least pleasant section of the audience. Y'know, the ones that Joss said he didn't care if they never watched again? And even though I admire the twisted nature of going down a path that idiot homophobe troglodytes have been predicting for almost forever only to reverse it all eventually, I still can't help but think that it's a huge insult to those of us who thought that the W/T relationship would transcend the usual stereotypical representations of lesbian relationships.
In other words: I'm disappointed. It will take a lot to restore my faith in this show. And if Tara stays dead, the shark that was half-jumped when the show became the Buffy and Spike Porn-o-rama will be well and truly jumped. For good and irreversibly.
And Joss had better frickin' make up for this by adding Tara to the credits the second she gets brought back to life.

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I don't watch pornography. I just write it. - Joss
Tara: Nice baffroom.
Anya: (noddin') Like the bleedin' tile. - 'The Yoko Factor' in Cockney

[This message has been edited by tyche (edited March 24, 2002).]quote:

[The Godfather]

Did I miss the part about where the gunshot actually has anything to do with a wish?

Also, to my knowledge Anya only grants the wishes of scorned women..

-Shawn

[Pee888wee]

Whew! I finally caught up on the posts in this thread! Here's a thought...
if the Anyanka grants Warrens wish scenario is true, and the Willow/Tara bed scene comes after, then a reversal would take them back to where they were when the wish was granted, correct? So that would mean a repeat of all the reconciliation goodness wouldn't it? Hmmm, maybe this whole reset idea isn't so bad after all!

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Pee

[xita]

No, Anya prefers to grant the wishes of disgruntled women but in no way limits who she can grant it to. Halfrek made that clear. Just like she can grant any wish but prefers to grant wishes to abused children.

[The Godfather]

But where did the Anya grants Warren's wish part come from? Did it come from AngelX?

And Warren's wish for what? To hurt someone unjustly who had never hurt her? Does Warren wish to hurt Xander?

Anya is still a vengence/justice demon..there is neither of those in that scenerio..

-Shawn

[This message has been edited by The Godfather (edited March 24, 2002).]

[Web Warlock]

Sorry to derail the Speculations, but I have a concern. And seeing that you are all the people whose opinions matter to me in things Buffy-related I'll ask.

Yes it has to do with all the rumors, spoilers and specualtaions.

Death has always been part and parcel of the Buffy mythos. While we see it in nearly every episode, it has never been trivial.

Xander having to kill to his and Willow's former best friend Jessie is a first of very personal deaths we have had to see.

Now the people at ME, and Joss in particular could have let this degrade to a slap-stick or a blood bath. We got neither. In fact 5 seasons into the show we got the death of Joyce that hit everyone hard.

The troupble I have with the Buffy resurection and the possible reset option is, will death become cheapened?

I WANT a reset. I need to have it. But what effect will it have?

Edited to add: I want to be sure my POV is clear. Not the characters, whose deaths are never cheapened. But rather the viewers, namely the common viewer. Make sense?

Warlock.

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Web Warlock
web.warlock@attbi.com webwarlock@planetadnd.com
Author, the Netbooks of Witches and Warlocks
The Other Side: http://www.xtreme-gaming.com/theotherside/
My Willow&Tara Pages: http://www.xtreme-gaming.com/theotherside/willtara.php
Shadow Earth Games: http://www.rpghost.com/WebWarlock/
--
I'm ahead of my time. But only by a week.
- Too Much Joy, "I Don't Know"

[This message has been edited by Web Warlock (edited March 24, 2002).]

[The Godfather]

But things aren't cheapened at all if a sacrifice is made to resurrect the dead. In fact, deaths importance is magnified..because Tara will spend the rest of his life living in tribute of Anya..

I like that much better than a magic reset to before..to me..it's so much more poignant..

-Shawn

[All4W/T]

Why does the wish have to be something "bad" wished on the scoobies?? Dawn didnt wish anything bad, she just wished it "wrong"..
And i dont think Cordelias wish ended up the way she thought it would, she died, Buffy died, the good guys lost..

Something wished for in anger or phrased wrong can be just as harmful than something wished for out of hatred as Warren might do..The door is left open for someone other than a person who "hates" the scoobies to make the wish..

This would allow for a little more remorse on Anyas part leading to her undoing the wish..If Anya hates the scoobies so much for her non acceptance and mistreatment and she grants Warren, who hates them as well, his wish, how does she arrive at her humanity again in time to undo the wish and why??

Just because something happens to Xander?? Surely she must know that could be a possiblity if she grants the wish, why should she care..It just seems more plausible that its a wish gone awry more than one made out of hatred..Just my opinion anyway..

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out and proud

[The Godfather]

I still don't see her granting Warren's wish of any type.

Sure..maybe she can grant anyones wish but I'd imagine she'd still stick to what her preference is..especially since her issue is once again scorned or injured women..

-Shawn

[The Big I-T]

quote:

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Originally posted by The Godfather:
Did I miss the part about where the gunshot actually has anything to do with a wish?

Also, to my knowledge Anya only grants the wishes of scorned women..

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From the information so far, the wish appears to have been granted somewhere just after the Scoobs find out about Spike and Anya's tryst and just before Willow finds Tara's body. Obviously, the details of the actual timeline are still fuzzy and many events seem to be transpiring over an extremely short period of time, but circumstantial evidence suggests the following:

• We know that Anya meets up with Tara and Willow while they are on their coffee date and that she tries to cajole them into saying something of a condemning nature about men in general, but she comes up empty-handed on this attempt;
  
• Anya then goes to Spike in the hopes of getting him to grant a wish against Xander, but he doesn't and instead they wind up in bed together with this last development playing out on a surveillance camera for all the other Scoobs to see;
  
• Recriminations follow, with one key result being that a freshly embittered Anya seeks out Warren, whom she knows would have no compunction about making some sort of wish that would go against the Scoobs in general, and thereby end up punishing Xander in the process. It's likely that, at this point, Anya isn't overly concerned with who all gets caught up in the fallout, just as long as Xander is subjected to some serious pain. We don't yet know exactly what the wording of that wish is, although it will almost certainly prove important in how things play out and how they are ultimately resolved;
  
• Warren then goes after Buffy with a gun -- presumably feeling fairly confident in the success of his mission, given that his wish is now in place. (Remember, he's never attempted to go directly at Buffy before; he's always utilized some sort of indirect magic or trickery whereby he can stand safely in the background waiting for the desired results to kick in.) Instead, something goes awry and he ends up killing Tara in the process.
  
• Willow finds Tara's body, and the spiral into chaos picks up steam from this point forward...
  

Oh yes...and has already been pointed out, Halfrek (in OAFA) took pains to point out that just because a Vengeance/Justice Demon may choose to specialize, it doesn't mean that they can't grant wishes for whomever they feel compelled to.

quote:

[Ange]

Ok, i found these at the Cross and Stake, a part of them is true, we all know it, and i don't belive the others:

quote:

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Ep.21

- Title: Serenade

- Willow's magic rage goes beyond the limit that Buffy and the gang can take and are left with no choice, but to get help in a strange place....

- Buffy breaks Jonathan, and Andrew out of jail to help her

- Anya turns into Anyanka and attacks Xander

- Spike, Buffy, Xander, and Anya (once she turns back) work together to try and stop evil Willow

- Willow's magic turns her hair and eyes black!!!

- Giles returns

Ep.22

Title: Friend in Need

- Halfrek and D' Hoffryn flee Sunnydale

- Willow tries to kill the gang resulting in a tragic showdown between Willow and Buffy

- Willow realizes how bad things have become and stops

- Willow's hair and eyes go back to normal because her heart is pure again

- The gang make up for thier mistakes and Jonathan and Andrew put a spell on the gang to make time go back

- It is the wedding day and Xander and Anya get married, Tara and Willow get back together and so do Bufy and Spike. Jonathan and Andrew are the ones who say what happened and all in all they get arrested by turning themelves and Warren in to the police

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I'm just a messenger....

Ange.

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"Things are not always what they seem to be...." Shakespare.

[This message has been edited by Ange (edited March 24, 2002).]quote:

[xita]

lol ange, yes not shooting you at all, but these he he, yeah, right.

[The Godfather]

Ange: No shooting you but nuh uh. Don't buy that for even half a second..some of those are true..the others are pure fallacy..

Why would Buffy and Spike get back together? Has she shown any interest in him? What if he does save her? That doesn't alter her feelings for him. She was cordial to him at the wedding but still not interested.

And what Giles comes in just to go away again? That would be a horrible insult to both the character and the fans.

It's all too terribly neat and tidy and that hardly works. It's not Joss's style. Why not just end the show here? All the conflict has been removed.

-Shawn

[This message has been edited by The Godfather (edited March 24, 2002).]

[This message has been edited by The Godfather (edited March 24, 2002).]