Discussion - S5E17 - Forever

[tvsurfer]

posted 04-18-2001 17:48 EST (US)
Doc's eyes going black when he touched Dawns hand and his taking her hair, well those actions set off my "danger warning bad things to come" sense

He asked them if either dawn or spike were witches and then gave them a tricky spell to do

If they were witches would he have given them the spell? or was he checking to see if he could put one past them

If the egg had an embryo in it I could buy the bone and flesh part, but still the only Breath in the circle was dawns. And they went to the trouble of showing the first egg that broke as being a yoke and egg white no embryo.

and I'm not convinced spike helped out of the kindness of his black heart

he wants his chip out and has sold out the gang before trying to get help with his chip problem

[Rayne]

posted 04-18-2001 17:51 EST (US)
Hi guys!

The shooting script for Forever is up!

I posted Disharmony earlier today.

Enjoy (I know you’re going straight to the Willow/Tara moments!

Oh, and did Tara’s line “That’s not the point.” stand out for anyone else? She said that in “Restless” too. I’m thinking that was foreshadowing the fact that Willow often reacts without thinking.

Rayne

[Anyalvr]

posted 04-18-2001 18:02 EST (US)
My impressions of this episode (which I just now watched all the way through):

I loved it. Much more so than The Body, it hit everything right-on.

I don't think anyone needs to worry about Anya and Xander procreating. At least not for a while. If their relationship lasts the show
and they both stick around until the end, there could be a baby/pregnancy at the end of the final season. But not before then.

Anya was so cute about the entire thing. "Breathe. You're turning colors."

Besides, any excuse for extra Emma skin is okay with me

Willow and Tara were sweet, as always. I really like how Tara has sort of develped into the emotional centre in the wake of Joyce's death and as the voice of calm and reason.

Bringing someone back from the dead is not a good thing, and Tara obviously understands that. Willow seems to be stuck in the whole "if it can be done, why can't we do it?" and
seems to rationalize that if it helps Dawn feel better, she doesn't *really* have a problem with it.

Willow needs to learn that boundaries can exist, as she hasn't before - and she's specifically tried to mess with questionable
stuff before, such as cursing Oz in WAH, a malicious spell done out of pure anguish that
would have had disastrous results if she had not stopped herself.

When you're talking about bringing people back from the dead - not a good idea. Even if you can.

I'm sorry, but I thought Willow was being really, really dumb about this. I mean, Spike
helped Dawn, but he has no soul, no conscience. What's Willow's excuse?

Aw, Spike. I think he genuinely wanted to make Dawn feel better and lessen her pain and he didn't have any problems with the kind of things that might result. Spike's amoral, so he doesn't care what's right or wrong. But
the fact that he did it out of conern for Dawn kind of made me feel for him.

I remember when my sister died I had this fantasy that my friend Susan would bring her up in her car and tell me it was all a bad dream and that it hadn't really happened. As I actually saw the paramedics cover my sister's body up with a sheet (she died in a boating accident) I was obviously was in serious denial. I can really understand Buffy and Dawn's shock and pain and why Buffy ran to the door, hpoing that maybe it wasn't true and she *would* get her mom back, as well as
Buffy's 'what do I do now' and 'I can't stop' feeling. This episode really brought a lot of stuff home for me.

I never was really a B/A fan, but I could have been. There's been a lot of discussion about Buffy being in an alternate reality or
the visit with Angel being a dream. I think the latter is definitely a possibility. But I also believe that Angel *would* come back if she needed him and that he and Buffy shared enough of that bond that she would turn to him.

Also, with the possibility of no more crossovers, this may be their only chance.

------------------
"I tried to be unlovable/why couldn't you do the same?"

-(jewel)

"Spank us 'til Tuesday! We promise to be bad if you do!"
-(drusilla, angel)

[Dr.G]

posted 04-18-2001 18:06 EST (US)
Heya Concrete, how do you know this? Have you emailed them? And does somebody know when the BBC will continue with S5?

Oh darn, reading all these posts makes me only wish more and more that I could see this episode. Patience I must have.

Editing to add: Thanks Rayne!

---------------------------

Garfield, the happy dutchman

[This message has been edited by Dr.G (edited April 18, 2001).]

[concrete]

posted 04-18-2001 18:34 EST (US)
Dr.G.: I forgot where I got this NET5 info from, sorry. As for the BBC starting S5 I read that in their Buffy-forum about a week ago I think. Yeah, we really ARE deprived of our favorite show and that sucks royally! Thank Xita for this message-board and the shooting-script page: just read the "Forever" script so at least that's something....but, alas, not the real deal.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Willow: maybe, maybe that way.
Tara: We looked that way. And this way, and the other way.
She’s not out here.
Willow: Where would you go? If you felt lost and alone? Where
Would you go?
Tara: To you.
Deleted scene from Blood Ties
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[concrete]

posted 04-18-2001 18:38 EST (US)
Oops, forgot something The BBC will start S5 in.....September.....yikes; that's waaaaaay too far ahead!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Willow: maybe, maybe that way.
Tara: We looked that way. And this way, and the other way.
She’s not out here.
Willow: Where would you go? If you felt lost and alone? Where
Would you go?
Tara: To you.
Deleted scene from Blood Ties
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Kalita]

posted 04-18-2001 18:38 EST (US)
Just read the script - thanks again, Rayne! - and a few things I noticed:

Quite a few little dialogue and scene trims, especially in the first act. The cemetery scene was cut quite short, it seems. Nothing W/T cut, though!

Doc's tail is described as reptillian - that kills the canine theory, I think. Doc's eyes are specifically described as 'evil'.

Dawn was apparently in a trance as Buffy found her - I dunno if that connects to the spell 'sacrifice' or not.

Kal

[Princess Willow]

posted 04-18-2001 19:32 EST (US)
Ok..if Doc's tail was reptilian the theory that he knows Dawn is the key still works. Only reptiles and canines can sense it. Who knows...maybe he's a mixture of both. He did growl at her.

K..done now.

------------------
"Lord what fools these mortals be."

[Popje]

posted 04-18-2001 21:04 EST (US)
Well I suspect Doc is the third hellgod, but hey what do I know.

[Beautiful Tara's Girl]

posted 04-18-2001 21:31 EST (US)
Can I ask a stupid question? What do you suppose the significance of "Peter and the Wolf" is to Dawn and/or Doc? I mean..I've heard OF the story...just not it itself. So if someone could give me a background, I'd be much obliged...

[mucifer]

posted 04-18-2001 22:00 EST (US)
some really great insite kittens!
it was a great epi tho i did like "the body" better.however the last scene in "forever" did totally blow me away. i was not expecting that sudden maturity to come from dawn. how cool was that?!

an interesting sidenote someone posted on another board, the song giles was listening to when he was drinking was the same one he and joyce listened to together in their "youth" in "band candy". how clever and sad.

i love the way willow and tara's characters are growing. willow is always yelling way out stuff about her pride . tara is more shy on that front but, of course more wise in the grieving areas.

i love love love this show!

and willow coming out to cordelia in the "angel" epi oy i just about died! that definately was the best angel epi i've seen in a LONG time.

[Rane]

posted 04-18-2001 22:05 EST (US)
hehe... i guess only rane/rayne's point out the restless reference (i posted re: it a while back too)... go us!

[calliope]

posted 04-18-2001 23:02 EST (US)
hey, so I noticed something i thought was kinda funky in this ep. during the scene in willow's room when dawn gets back into bed upset, they give a quick shot of tara. Anyway, this went by way to fast for me to know for sure, but I could have sworn that right behind tara, the door to the room was slightly ajar, and there was some kind of figure behind it. I dont think this has anything to do with the plot, but I was wondering if anybody had it taped and could check. Mayeb its a blooper or soemthing. Well, anyway, after reading the shooting script I must say I'm upset they cut so many of tara's lines. They would have made the conversation between her and dawn better. The way they left it seemed kind of off. they should have kept more of Tara's lessons on grieving and cut out: "we're witches, we know stuff." Which has to be the first truly dumb thing tara's ever said. With the exception of the scene where tara notices the book is missing. In the shooting script, it makes it seem as though Tara suspects Willow is lying, or at the very least acting strangely. It didnt come across in the episode though, and how can you not suspect Willow? She cant lie to save her life! Not having any reaction to Willow's horrible, horrible job of lying kinda made Tara seem a bit (please dont kill me here) dimwitted. I know she was frantic about what might happen, but still. Willow had "guilty" written all over! Its gonna make Tara seem like even more of a space cadet if she ever finds out about this whole thing ("oh my god, no! I can't believe this, there's no way Willow could have lied to me about this. She seemed so inconspicuous!") I hope at least they make it seem as though Tara has her supsicions. As for the spell, I think Tara's tried it, or something. That would lead to major fireworks, if she gets pissed off at Willow for helping dawn. Willow would probably accuse of her of not practicing her witchy preaching. That's he only way I could see a big fight coming from all of this. but, only time will tell (2 more weeks, just 2 more weeks...).

At least they gave us a sweet w/t scene, which was a bit bittersweet because seemed so foreboading.

[wiccie]

posted 04-18-2001 23:06 EST (US)
I have The Egyptian Book Of The Dead in my hot Wiccan hands;~)

tvsurfer, While we know that the writers don't use mythological deities in their literal sense - much dramatic license, etc. - I don't think the Flesh, bone, etc. comments in the spell necessarily portend Dawn being obligated to Osiris or Doc.

Osiris is, for all intents, the Egyptian Jesus, the son of god (RA) who is ressurected. Osiris and Anubis (Guardian of the Underworld and Osiris' son - or brother or uncle; it's all so incestuous) are the main deities invoked for mummification, etc. (tho the gods' moms are also promenently mentioned*G*).

In "real life" the spell would be a bastardization of raising a mummy. Of course, what Marti et al intended the spell to be, only time will tell.

The flesh, bones, yours, etc. is most likely in reference to the deceased (mummies originally, but in this case Joyce), and/or Osiris himself rising.

A direct quote from TEBOTD (from translator/transcriber E.A. Wallace Budge RE; The Legend of Osiris):

"Osiris was the god through whose sufferings and death the Egyptian hoped that his body might rise again in some transformed or glorified shape, and to him who had conquered death and had become the king of the other world the Egyptian appealed in prayer for eternal life through his victory and power. In every funeral inscription known to us, from the pyramid texts down to the roughly-written prayers upon coffins of the Roman period, what is done for Osiris is done also for the deceased, the state and condition of Osiris are the state and condition of the deceased; in a word, the deceased is identified with Osiris. If Osiris liveth forever, the deceased will live forever; if Osiris dieth, then will the deceased perish."

Whew! Mucho typing...OK, I'm not even gonna try to recount the Legend of Osiris, so y'all will just have to go read a copy of TEBOTD yourselves.*G*

On a completely silly and non-depressing note, one of the chapters in the Theban version of TEBOTD is called:

The Chapter of Repulsing The Eater of The Ass

wiccie - the Ever Ready Pagan.

Loved the ep, but I'm confused as to why Marti's script and the finished product that she directed are so different...Hmmmm.

[This message has been edited by wiccie (edited April 18, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by wiccie (edited April 18, 2001).]

[calliope]

posted 04-18-2001 23:13 EST (US)

quote:

---

Originally posted by Beautiful Tara's Girl:
What do you suppose the significance of "Peter and the Wolf" is to Dawn and/or Doc? I mean..I've heard OF the story...just not it itself. So if someone could give me a background, I'd be much obliged...

---

I think that's the story where he cries wolf, when he's really NOT being attacked by wolves so all the townspeople come out to help him only to find he was trickign them. Therefore, when he does get attacked by a wolf and cries for help, nobody believes him or comes to his aid. And so...he dies. Was this referred to somehow in the ep? The doc was really creepy...everythign he did left me with the sense that something still might happen involving that spell. Does anybody know what the name of that tune he was humming is or where youve heard it before?

[xita]

posted 04-18-2001 23:44 EST (US)
K a few things. I thought it was extremely odd that Willow and Tara did not tell Dawn about Tara's mom. Conclusion: Willow doesn't know. I may be completely wrong but it is just the feeling I got.

And the shooting script was much fun to read. It really does make it clear that Willow was just trying to make Dawn feel better and hadn't thought out the consequences.

Some highlights:

Willow is beside herself, wanting to comfort her somehow. She moves to Dawn - rubs her back.

Willow clearly wants to make Dawn feel better.

Dawn crawls on to her bed. Lays down. Pulls a pillow close and hugs it. Willow is beside herself, wanting to comfort her somehow. She moves to Dawn - rubs her back.

Same theme here.

WILLOW
Oh… Dawn. This just sucks,
doesn't it? I wish I could help more.

getting the pattern?

Tara is working on her homework at Willow's desk - but rather than looking at her book, she's gazing out the window - lost in thought. Willow is laying across her bed with a journal, writing and thinking. Willow taps the journal with her pen, trying to remember something…

Tara thinking of her mom here? And sitting on the desk? Much better on the bed.

Tara leaves her desk and comes and sits next to Willow on the bed.

"sits?" hehe. I like it much better they shot it.

Now the magic book stuff:

Now Willow looks worried too. And regretful.

Willow had not thought things out.

Willow stands - fully freaked.
She is so impulsive.

Tara gives Willow a look - how would she know? Willow starts to ramble nervously-

Tara knows something is off with Willow. It's obvious.

Willow takes this in - dread rising.

WILLOW
We need to call Buffy. Now.

She just then figured out the full extent of her actions. I still think they will fight about this later though. I think Willow didn't really see how her philosophy was wrong though. I think she just applied her lesson to this particular incident not to magic in general.

[Roxton]

posted 04-18-2001 23:46 EST (US)
I felt bad for Spike last night when Xander questioned his motives for bring flowers to the Summers' home. Despite his faults it is obvious that Spike really like Joyce and was touched by her death. I think he will miss her. With the exception of Dawn, Joyce was the only other person that has never really been judgmental towards him and they did seem to enjoy each other's company. I was glad that Willow picked up on Spike's true intentions at the end of that scene.

As for Spike's motivation for helping Dawn, I think he has a soft spot for her and is taking a big brother type protective attitude towards her. That's not saying that Spike decision to help her with the resurrection spell was wise, but I can see why he tried.

[xita]

posted 04-19-2001 01:30 EST (US)
I love David Fury:

Just passing through with one of my cranky rants...

Glad most of you enjoyed the shows last night.

To the few of you who don't see this season's been as strong as any year of Buffy: "The Body," "Fool For Love," "Blood Ties," "Family," etc., all I can say is... Go watch some reality programming. This stuff's wasted on you.

And anyone who doesn't know that Marti Noxon is one of the prime reasons for the greatness of this show, is a complete and utter moron. (Hear me, Doctor?!)

Okay, back to my bright and cheery disposition...

[Warduke]

posted 04-19-2001 01:34 EST (US)
He's a trip

[Rane]

posted 04-19-2001 01:35 EST (US)

quote:

---

Originally posted by wiccie:
[B]For those who wondered about "Peter and the Wolf", music and story:

What Joel Grey/Doc is humming is from the Sergei Prokofiev (hope my spelling is OK*G*) musical adaptation of the traditional Russian fairy tale.

It is not "The Boy Who Cried Wolf", but then there are lots of European folk tales about wolves and children and death - whee. ;~)

Easy to get confused but "P&tW" is about a boy who travels to visit his grandfather, and must pass thru dangerous woods to do so. Grampa warns Peter to beware of the Wolf, but Peter ignores the danger until his friend is eaten by said wolf. Peter proves his courage (& manhood, etc.) by hunting and killing the wolf by himself for revenge. I think he actually cuts his girlfriend out of the wolf's stomach, which is parr for the course in fairy tales - again, I say "whee".

Peter is transformed from disobediant man-child to hero-adult.

So, Doc humming this tune could be a way to emphasize that Dawn is messing with a danger that's possibly more than she can handle (a la Peter's grandpa warning him to beware of the dangers of the woods).

B]

---

sounds like the little red riding hood where a hunter kills the wolf and her grandma comes out of it's tummy (the one i grew up with had her locked in the closet).

not been spoiled by anything so i may just be really off the wall about this... but either way this version sounds more connective cause this may refer to Dawn's use of whatever power she may have, she's all energy after all, to defeat Glory. She proves her *courage*. after all she is bitty buffy.

[Dr.G]

posted 04-19-2001 01:50 EST (US)

quote:

---

Originally posted by xita:

K a few things. I thought it was extremely odd that Willow and Tara did not tell Dawn about Tara's mom. Conclusion: Willow doesn't know. I may be completely wrong but it is just the feeling I got.

---

Ah I would find it very odd indeed if Willow does *not* know about Tara's mother. After having been together for so long and being as close as they are, this is something she would simply *have* to know.
Besides in Family Willow says "That's so weird. Your *whole* family".
Now, I went like 'hang on, where is mom?' Even if Willow did not know already at that point and did not ask that question right then and there, she surely would have done so later in private.

Maybe they did not tell Dawn at that point to spare her further hurt. For Dawn would have realized that she had been insensitive towards Tara and would probably have felt a little worse than she already did.

Anyway I am glad the script makes clear that Tara does see Willow wasn't being truthful, and they did shoot those scenes much better, as you have pointed out. Fingerplaying not scripted huh? Heh heh.

[This message has been edited by Dr.G (edited April 19, 2001).]

[xita]

posted 04-19-2001 04:24 EST (US)
Well, yes Willow may know about the death. Certainly Tara hasn't told all about her mother's death ( a resurrection perhaps? How did she die?) It will come out soon and that might be part of their argument as well.

[Dr.G]

posted 04-19-2001 05:04 EST (US)
On that I will agree.

[mucifer]

posted 04-19-2001 09:17 EST (US)
back to the spike thingy. i think one of the funniest scenes that totally caught me by suprise was back in season 2 or 3 when dru dumped spike and he came back to sunnydale. buffy was informed that spike was going to her house (spike didnt have his chip so he was dangerous) then they played the "oh no something bad is gonna happen so we will now break to commercials" music. back from commercials instead of spike trying to kill joyce, she is making him tea and he is telling her about dru and getting her advice. if you know this about their history you can see why spike left the flowers and why he might have wanted to resurect her for his own reasons.

[Hemiola]

posted 04-19-2001 10:54 EST (US)
"Peter and the Wolf" - information for anyone interested:

There are many recordings of this "children's tale with music" by Sergei Prokofiev, some of which are narrated by famous actors (e.g. Sean Connery, Sting, etc). My own favorite is that of Leonard Bernstein, who narrates the story over his own recording of the piece with the New York Philharmonic.
A very cute cartoon version of the tale was created by Disney in the 1940s and was incorporated into his "Make Mine Music" cartoon anthology.

[april]

posted 04-19-2001 11:17 EST (US)
hmm. if tara *did* try to resurrect her mother, she probably had a hell of a time trying to get that egg...

[xita]

posted 04-19-2001 11:24 EST (US)
That may not be the only way to do it April. And mom and grandma must have had just about access to anything.

[tvsurfer]

posted 04-19-2001 12:09 EST (US)
wondering why folks think tara's adamant stance against breaking wicca oath and doing the resurrection spell is precipitated be her previously trying a resurrection spell herself on her mom as opposed to her having been raised by her mom to believe that such spells were out of bounds for wicca's and the oath sacred and to be respected?

[wiccie]

posted 04-19-2001 12:14 EST (US)
For those who wondered about "Peter and the Wolf", music and story:

What Joel Grey/Doc is humming is from the Sergei Prokofiev (hope my spelling is OK*G*) musical adaptation of the traditional Russian fairy tale.

It is not "The Boy Who Cried Wolf", but then there are lots of European folk tales about wolves and children and death - whee. ;~)

Easy to get confused but "P&tW" is about a boy who travels to visit his grandfather, and must pass thru dangerous woods to do so. Grampa warns Peter to beware of the Wolf, but Peter ignores the danger until his friend is eaten by said wolf. Peter proves his courage (& manhood, etc.) by hunting and killing the wolf by himself for revenge. I think he actually cuts his girlfriend out of the wolf's stomach, which is parr for the course in fairy tales - again, I say "whee".

Peter is transformed from disobediant man-child to hero-adult.

Must protekt da willage

So, Doc humming this tune could be a way to emphasize that Dawn is messing with a danger that's possibly more than she can handle (a la Peter's grandpa warning him to beware of the dangers of the woods).

Yes, tonight wiccie is a font of antiquated information.*G*

[This message has been edited by wiccie (edited April 19, 2001).]

[Warduke]

posted 04-19-2001 12:20 EST (US)
Well tvsurfer, it can go both ways, I see Tara’s mom as teaching her that you just don’t do spells like that and you never break the wicca code of ethics but at the same time, when her mom died, she was left alone with her dad and brother, not a very comforting thought, so in her despair she may have tried a resurrection spell and she may have stopped before raising the body or she may have raised the body, seen that it was not what she was expecting and stopped it then.

Personally I don’t think Tara tried to resurrect her mother and I’m sure her mom had a talk with her just before she died, she knew Tara would be devastated by her death and warned her not to do that spell, that it would not bring her back the way she was now.

[This message has been edited by Warduke (edited April 19, 2001).]