I have a question for you kitties.......

[cachaco]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hemiola:
Sounds like everyone here has read Stephen King's "It", with its villainous clown, Pennywise .

---

*shudder* Whoa nelly, that there is one scary-ass clown. Ewww, did you ever see the miniseries? Tim Curry played Pennywise, and MAN that was some terrifying stuff. *double shudder*

quote:

[the literary exterminator]

quote:

---

Originally posted by JJ:
Given the creator's reliance on past horror and comic archetypes, I'm surprised that an Incredible Hulk-like character hasn't been mentioned. You know, someone who is a normal guy most of the time, but when angered turns into the ultimate monstrosity; or maybe someone who is predestined to become a big nasty despite him(her)self.

---

Well, they already kinda tread that ground with Scott Hope's friends. The boyfriend of a hetero couple used potion to change at first, but eventually changed whenever he got angry. It was a pretty obvious metaphor for a physically abusive relationship (although not quite Wrecked obvious).
quote:

[Wolfie]

sam89 - no, it's just another testament to the terrifying power of the rogue box of matches. Run! Run for your lives! AAAAAAaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhh!!!!

I'm a silly sod, I know

------------------
*Sings*
Oh, you can tell, by the rapture on my face,
That synthetic fur makes for a sensual embrace!

[TaraMaclay]

Do to some strange after affect from 'The Gift' Both our universe and the 'Wish' verse intertwine. Cause mayhem as to which 'copy' of whom you cqan trust. leading up to a climactic comclusion, where it is found out. that the only member of the 'Scooby Gang' who can close this portal is a now 'restored',yet somewhat more 'huminized' (is that a word??) Anya...

Hey, would make an interesting two-parter anyway.

As to the 'Clown/IT' type idea. Sure why not. Tim Curry is still available...

------------------
IM: Taramaclay69
Guardian of VampTara
--
Look, I realize that every slayer comes with a expiration mark stamped on the package.. But I want mine to be a long time from now.. Like a Cheeto.
----

[Junkyard Dog]

An idea that I've seen proposed/discussed once or twice (at the Spoiler Slayer site, for one) is the introduction of an Anti-Scooby Gang, which would be made up of evil counterparts to Buffy & her friends. I'm one of those people who finds villain team-ups to be irresistable, so I really like this idea. Not that it'll ever happen. If we're speaking in practical terms, the Troika is probably the closest thing we'll ever see to such a concept. (And though I like the boys, they leave a little bit to be desired in the villainy department.)

But since we're talking about things we'd like to see - as opposed to things we can realistically expect to see - I think they've introduced enough previous characters on the show who'd fit into an ASG quite nicely. I think somebody with a grudge (Ethan Rayne, probably) could organize a group of like-minded foes to get revenge against Buffy, Giles & the others. I see it falling out thusly:

Buffy/Faith
Giles/Ethan
Willow/Amy
Xander/Hmmm..Warren, maybe?
Spike/either Dru or Harmony

I can't think of any counterparts for Dawn, Anya or Tara, but maybe those 5 main villains are enough. I'd definitely bring Giles back for this storyline & have it last for a good portion of the season if not for the entire season itself. It would certainly avoid further Apocalypse scenarios, something they've already done to death. (And seem anxious to avoid repeating, as this season demonstrates.) The main problem with this idea is there'd be far too many characters running around, and they're having dificulty giving all the regulars decent screen-time right now as is.

[cachaco]

JD, that's actually a really cool idea, 'cause it fits with Marti's recent comments about there being no external supernatural Big Bad this season...this would be characters we've already met, and who have complex relationships with the Scoobies...there would be all kinds of identity and "there but for the grace of god..." issues flying around - cool! Someone should write a fic about that scenario....

[Junkyard Dog]

It's possible they might address some of those issues with the current stroyline. Even though the Troika don't appear in Doublemeat Palace, the opening scene supposedly has the SG talking about what they're going to do about the 3 boys. I hope they have Buffy, at least, express some sympathy for Jonathan. They went to high school with him, they know he had few (if any) friends, they know he's not evil, just misguided. I'd like to see him come out of this story arc ok. (Andrew too. Though Warren is very bad news, and deserves whatever whoopass is coming his way.)

[Sam89]

So you guys are saying that you would rather now have a big bad this season?

Well i think it should because the show is starting to lose (like i said earlier) the magic side of the show. I really haven't seen many vampires on lately or demons. They need something newer and give the show a little twist. The show is called Buffy the Vampire Slayer not Buffy the Soap Opera Slayer. We need to keep that in perspective.

[This message has been edited by Sam89 (edited January 26, 2002).]

[katydid]

I like the direction the show is going in. Not so much of "Vampire...must kill it" It actually involves complex plots that really draw someone in. There is still a very large vampire population to it...but there are many types of beasties out there for Buffy to kill. If the show involved only killing vampires...it would get really boring. As I grow up, my tastes grow up with me. Not so much violence...more drama for me.

------------------
"She practically has 'genuine molded plastic' stamped on her ass.

[EricAlan69]

Actually, I like the way things are going, and the concept of no 'exterior' big bad, just the interior conflicts of our Scoobs. I think this is also reflected in the Nerds of Doom- human 'villains', not supernatural. It hints that there are different levels of internal conflict (basic and easily reparable, a'la Johnathan and Andrew, more corrupt but inherently still human, a'la Warren).

And, frankly, they tend to make me laugh my ass off.

love and witchiechix,

e.

[Junkyard Dog]

I don't know that I'd prefer a big bad per se. It's just that it's a rather fun tradition on Buffy, and since the show is probably going to end after next season, it seems a pity not to get one this year. (Of course, we still don't know what's going to happen. Maybe as a contrast to introducing Glory so early last season, they're going to spring S6's big bad on us extra late. But I doubt it.)

I can sympathise with them not wanting to do another Apocalypse-oriented storyline. They've gone to that well more than enough, but they can have a major league villain motivated by other things than wanting to end the world, can't they? What about revenge? The Anti-Scooby Gang idea I mentioned would - as Cachaco pointed out - tap into many of the same things they could do with the Troika, and provide a somewhat more credible threat in the process.

(Not that I'd ever expect to really see such a thing happen on Buffy; As I said, there are purely practical reasons that make it impractical, not least of which is Eliza D. being too busy to return to the show. But I'm just making conversation here.)

I mostly like S6, but one thing I don't like is the way they've distorted Amy & Jonathan's characters to fit this season's storyline. Especially Jonathan's, and not just because I'd like nothing better than to pick Danny Strong up & cuddle him...though that certainly enters into it!

[EvilAnya]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Junkyard Dog:

I mostly like S6, but one thing I don't like is the way they've distorted Amy & Jonathan's characters to fit this season's storyline. Especially Jonathan's, and not just because I'd like nothing better than to pick Danny Strong up & cuddle him...though that certainly enters into it!

---

I agree about Amy, i think they definitely tweaked her character to work to the purposes of Willow's magick addiction arc, but what differences to you see in Jonathon? He seems the same to me, he just got in a situation that's way over his head, i don't think he's changed much, he's certainly not 'evil' now. I agree though, Danny Strong is someone you want to pick up and cuddle
quote:

[WillowOnly]

Well, I guess you can't really call him a "bad guy", but I am pleasently surprised that we see Jonathon and his idiot friends again after so long! They would be bad guys, but they do such stupid things that you just can't help feeling sorry for them. They don't have the heart to kill anybody, and when they hurt someone it's always by accident. You can't help but laugh as you watch them get all excited about their far fetched schemes and then get all disappointed when it doesn't work out. Can't help it, that's why I like 'em!

[Dazey]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lijdrec:
You couldn't have a more disturbing Big Bad than her father, Hank Summers, returning as a vampire. Accompanied by his vamped secretary

---

Played by Melissa Gilbert?

quote:

---

they appear as a harbingers of an assault by their sire, a uber-vamp, thousand of years old.... yep, the first vampire!

---

While I like the idea of "no external Big Bad" for S6, a vampire would make the ideal BB for S7, which most people seem to agree will be the last. It would nicely bookend the series, you know? And I've always said it should be the First Vampire (who would be Lilith in my version, and I know others have mentioned her as well). Once Buffy slays her, all the vamps on earth would perish as well (of course, that could be problematic if Angel is still on the air, not to mention we don't know where B/S is headed and hey, maybe they'll be Mr. and Mrs. the Bloody by then).quote:quote:

[Sam89]

Lilith? Who's that? I have never heard of her. Apparently she was the first vampire but could someone maybe fill me in a bit more? If she was the first vampire it would be interesting if buffy slayed her and then all the vamps died but i think that would be WAY to preditable and simple. Thats me anyways.

[This message has been edited by Sam89 (edited January 27, 2002).]

[WillowLikeWhoa]

Here's another possibility having to do with an Anti-Scooby team, at least IMO.

Holtz as the Anti-Giles and his slayer pal chick as the Anti-Buffy. Sure, they're on Angel right now. Doesn't mean they couldn't be on Buffy later on. It wouldn't be so much a crossover as a sharing of characters. Angel wouldn't have to know that Holtz is in Sunnydale. I think the Scoobs might be threatened by someone like Holtz.

I don't think Faith fits as a Anti-Scooby because Faith has changed. She's not as much of a rogue slayer as she used to be. And besides, Eliza is busy.

~Michelle~

[Lijdrec]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dazey:
While I like the idea of "no external Big Bad" for S6, a vampire would make the ideal BB for S7, which most people seem to agree will be the last. It would nicely bookend the series, you know? And I've always said it should be the First Vampire (who would be Lilith in my version, and I know others have mentioned her as well).

---

Dazey, when I wrote that I was indeed thinking ahead to season 7. My ideas on the S6 BB are on the Spoiler Thread (which I think you've already seen), in short, collective Scooby angst made manifest by magick(?).

Bookends are nice, but I fear that JW and ME are going to extend the saga into movies...

quote:

[Junkyard Dog]

Hey, EvilAnya...

I'm one of those people who thinks they definitely dropped the ball with Willow's story arc this season, turning a rather intriuging storyline about corruption into a hackeneyed preachfest about addiction. Since poor Amy's been dragged into that, I have to agree with you: They've distorted her character more than they should have. I honestly can't see her ever getting involved with the likes of Rack, especially after what her monster of a mother put her through.

As for Jonathan, if I'm fair, I have to admit his new-found desire to be a "super villain" isn't entirely out of character for him, particularly since they've made it clear (thus far, anyway) that he doesn't want to truly hurt anyone, least of all Buffy. I'm mainly worried about the spoilers for the upcoming eppie Dead Things. If Jonathan willingly participates in what Warren is supposed to do in that ep, it would make him genuinely repugnant & impossible to like. And I'd hate to see that happen, as I think the poor l'il schnook's one of the most sympathetic characters to ever appear on BTVS. The scene where Buffy talks him down from committing suicide in Earshot, and the scene from the Prom, in which he gives Buffy her Class Protector Award, are 2 of the most touching scenes in the series. It's funny to see Jonathan pop in in past episodes (he's in a lot of them) even if he has nothing major to do. The poor boy's far more of a butt-monkey than Xander ever was. And I think he's cute. I wouldn't like to see him turn into a monster any more than I'd like to see Xander do so.

To bring this back to the subject of potential big bads, I like the idea of another vampire as the main villain for S7. Here's a thought: We've seen the origins of Angel, Spike and Drusilla, but what about Darla? They've never given any information about the vampire responsible for her being vamped. Why not introduce him as a character? He'd have a connection to Spike, at least, and since they've established that the older a vampire is, the more powerful he's supposed to be - and since he'd be fairly old, one presumes - he'd be a formidable enemy.

But I suppose it would make more sense to bring such a character onto Angel moreso than Buffy, especially since the birth of Angel & Darlas's baby son. That would be a reason for the kid's Grandfather to pay a visit, no?

[This message has been edited by xita (edited January 27, 2002).]

[Warduke]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Junkyard Dog:
We've seen the origins of Angel, Spike and Drusilla, but what about Darla? They've never given any information about the vampire responsible for her being vamped.

---

We found out on Angel who vamped Darla, it was the Master.quote:

[TwiLightJoy]

I thought that Darla was vamped by the Master himself. I think it was in an episode of Angel if I'm not mistaken. She was sick and near dying, and the Master said he could give her life eternal or something. Again, I'm not 100% sure, but I think they have done the How Darla Got Vamped.

~Joy

Edited to add, good, I wasn't hallucinating!

[This message has been edited by TwiLightJoy (edited January 27, 2002).]

[Junkyard Dog]

So the Master vamped Darla? Damn, I haven't seen very much of Seasons 1 - 2 of AtS. I might have known they'd supply that little gem of information on Angel. (Actually, it makes sense, seeing as she was serving the Master on Buffy S1.)

I also liked the idea someone suggested of bringing in a major league sorcerer as a villain. Rack could fill that role, but he strikes me as too small time. He's more of an unpleasant creep than kick ass villain material.

[Kalita]

I was struck with a thought on the line from "Smashed":

SPIKE
You came back wrong.

I think this has some farther-reaching implications than we're currently aware of...

[fell]

First off, I can't see any reason for thinking that S7 will be the last. No other show has ever been on as long as this one has and stayed as fresh and innovative, not to mention continually improving in quality. Last season was the best yet. I think as long as SMG and Ally stay Buffy will continue. Ally has said she has no intention of leaving, and unless something miraculous happens with Scooby Doo the Movie I don't see Sarah leaving either. Plus she's said repeatedly that she loves playing Buffy.

Sam89- Lilith: In Hebrew mythology she is Adam's first wife. One of the earliest references to vampires is to Lilith as a Lamia. As the personification of patriarchal societies' fears of women's sexuality and liberation Lilith is an important feminist icon. Search this board for an enlightening discussion. Also check out: http://www.lilitu.com/lilith/lil_alt-myth.html

RE: Big Bads, Wiccagirl mentions two very intriquing ideas- a slayer vampire, and Anyanka. As awesome as Faith would be as a vampire, if she's unavailable how about Kendra? They could start with a flashback of Dru or some other vamp putting a few drops of blood on her lips as she lay there dying.

As for the vengeance demon idea, I was thinking about a friend of mine whose fiance got cold feet a month before the wedding. It happens. To end S6, if this happened to Anya she might ask d'Hoffryn for, say, 3 wishes. As usual, the wishes don't exactly work out and Xander ends up as a vampire. He bites Willow but Tara manages to restore her soul after a few eps, presenting Tara with a difficult decision. In the final ep Spike dusts Xander after he mortally wounds Buffy and the season ends with him cradling the dying Slayer in his arms. S7E1- Buffy rises, once again. A vampire, only good, sort of. By the end of S7 they're all vamps, a sort of undead vigilante squad in black leather. Clea Duvall (or Juliette Lewis if Clea's not available) comes to town as the new Slayer with Gina Gershon (if they can't get Angelina) as her Watcher. Well, I can dream.

One other big loose end is Dawn. She is after all the Key and presumably still has mystical powers. I think someone us going to figure out how to use her to work some dark mojo.

[Junkyard Dog]

I think it's entirely possible UPN will want a known & proven quality show on their network to give them a bit of respectablity in the years to come. (I mean, have they got anything else on display right now that's even halfway decent?) Seeing as they made their bid for Buffy, I can't imagine them letting it go after a mere two years. It will all depend (obviously) on the actors, Joss & the other writers/directors. If they're getting tired of BTVS & decide 7 years is enough, then that's it. If, on the other hand, they all realize Buffy is something special & an experience not likely to be repeated later in their careers...Well, we shall see in due time. Even if they end the series after S7, they still might reunite from time to time for the occassional Buffy Movie. I wouldn't mind that, myself...

Ok, here's my latest crackpot idea for a future big bad: "The Sorcerer".

A youthful-looking but actually extremely old & powerful magician visits Sunndale, and not because of the tourist trade. Even though the Hellmouth has been closed for years, it still attracts all sorts of mystical beings, and this guy has lived so long in part because he drains power from other magic users much the same way that vampires drain blood. And he's come to pick Sunndale clean. (I picture him as dressing like a natty stage magician, complete with cape, tuxedo & top hat! And white gloves, which he removes whenever he's "feeding".)

I see this as a season-long arc, and I think it would start slowly: The land formerly occupied by Sunnydale High has finally been sold for redevelopment, and on the evening before construction is scheduled to begin, our guy (who I see as being played by John Malkovitch or someone like him) visits the still-standing, burned out hulk of the high school, digs through the rubble, and finds the cheerleader trophy that Amy's mother, Catherine, is trapped in. He frees her, and while she's still disoriented, he sucks her dry, killing her in the process & leaving her mummified corpse for the construction workers to find the following morning. (Maybe it's Xander's company, and he's the one to find her?)

As this story arc continues, the Scooby Gang investigates, and slowly find out what's happening & who's responsible, while Sunndale's various magic-users are picked off one by one. Some of them begin to take notice as well, mainly Rack, who's a sleazebag but has an excellent sense of self-preservation. He tries to flee town at first, but by the time he does this, the vampsorcerer has constructed a magical barrier around the city limits to prevent any of his future meals from escaping. Rack then turns to some of his fellow 'citizens' to form some kind of alliance for self-protection, but most of them, being either crazy, stupid or arrogant, aren't interested. (Possibly he visits Doc - who's still alive, natch - and Doc contemptuously turns him down...Only to be the next victim! Oh, the irony!)

Meanwhile, the SG go through a somewhat similar process, and when they realize what's happening, Willow & Tara attempt to leave town as well, only to be blocked by the magical barrier, which also somehow prevents them from contacting the outside world for help. With no possibility for reinforcements, the SG have no choice but to team up with some of Sunnydale's more unsavory elements, and maybe a few ordinary citizens as well. (Like the warlock brother-in-law of the bartender from Beer Bad.)

It's been hinted that Sunnydale isn't the only place on earth that has a Hellmouth (or some similar mystical convergence type deal), so this would be a good plot to finally explore that particular angle & show how many other places like Sunnydale actually exist in the Buffyverse. It would also be an excellent way to bring back (& eliminate) previous little bads like Doc, Rack, D'Hoffryn, Catherine, Amy, et al. Throw in all of Rack's junkie "clients" and the many people we've seen shopping at the Magic Box for supplies to do actual spells (the lady who wanted the Mummy Hand in Life Serial, for one), and there are a lot of potential victims for our evil sorcerer guy. Maybe Dawn's status as the Key could tie into it as well, with her displaying some latent occult power to mark her as a potential target, which would certainly make it a more immediately personal problem for Buffy. And the season climax could be a super-huge mega battle. Whee!

[supermus]

My personal ASG:
Buffy: Vamped Kendra
Spike: Warren(human)
Willow: Vamped Amy
Xander: Vamped Andrew
Dawn: Vamped Janice
Anya: Halfrek
Giles: Drusilla

See, Spike is a Vampire, but he fights for good with the humans, and Warren would be a human who fights for evil with the vampires. Also, by this point Giles has come to his senses and come back to town. Giles and Drusilla both use their knowledge to advise their respective gangs. The other connections are obvious. Oh yeah and I couldn't think of any matches for our Tara. She's too unique.

------------------
"Is everyone here very stoned?"
"No! No, it's not a potion. You can tell by how damn SLOW it is."

[This message has been edited by supermus (edited January 28, 2002).]

[This message has been edited by supermus (edited January 28, 2002).]

[This message has been edited by supermus (edited January 28, 2002).]

[Superstar]

How about an evil version of Buffy from an alternate universe in which she Went Bad, in a big way, bigger even than Faith did? Still human, but definitely gone rogue. I think we got a little hint of this Buffy in "The Wish".

[supermus]

I have an idea. Faith dies for a second in prison in a riot or something, and a new slayer is called. but this slayer has a demon "soul", like vampires have, but she's still human. She tries to create a whole army of slayers from alternate dimensions and there's this huge war between good slayers and evil slayers.

------------------
"You made a bear! Undo it! Undo it!"
"Is everyone here very stoned?"
"No! No, not potions, it's chemistry you can tell by how damn SLOW it is."

[Thanatopsis]

I'd love to see some alternate realities stuff. There could maybe be a rouge SG for real in this other universe. It could fit into the whole inner big bad this season. The gang is not completely past it and then they have to see and deal with inner demons of their conterparts. Except, I suppose the whole double thing had been pretty much done with VampWillow and Xander being split by Toth. Either way, if they did do another universe, I would hope it would be a completely different one.

T

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DAWN: I gave birth to a pterodactyl.
ANYA: Oh my god, did it sing?

[Lijdrec]

The trouble with the Alternate Reality ideas is that you must either play off of the existing Alternate Reality, via some magical time-fold or through a magical intervention from within that AR; or you must create another Alternate Reality.

Creating another AR might be problematic - another Wish? - already been done. I do see a very interesting story line to go with some magical intervention from within the existing AR. It would involve another Tara and bringing her into the Buffyverse.

AR-Tara would necessarily have had some contact with someone else from the normal Scoobies (guess who?), and her entrance into the Buffyverse would be detrimental to her physical and mental health (because of her mode of 'travel' from the AR to the Buffyverse). Of course this would satisfy everyone who wants to see 'a' Tara die. The 'real' Tara would certainly find it to be a very emotional experience, bringing up the memories of her own mother's death as well as her 'lost' period from S5.

There would certainly be a purpose to all of this. AR-Tara would have periods of lucidity in which she would be able to reveal some crucial knowledge (AR-Magicks? - other 'secrets' perhaps only hinted at?) to Tara that would be most necessary to the Scoobies survival in the coming apocalypse. Those brief periods of lucidity would create even more emotional turmoil for Tara - and Willow; which would ultimately forge an even stronger bond between them. The knowledge (secrets) that she might impart could be such as to cause as much turmoil among the Scoobs as well-being.

Now if I can only get this FanFic that has been swirling around my mind down on paper - or in my computer......

[This message has been edited by Lijdrec (edited February 03, 2002).]

[Hemiola]

Lijdrec brings up some interesting points.

Let's consider what's happened on another show just recently: Andromeda. The episode aired on Saturday (i.e. yesterday) has permanently altered the "Andromedaverse" by using a sci-fi staple: time warps/tesseracts. Unfortunately, those of us who follow this show have no way of knowing if these will constitute "improvements" to the established "reality" of the series.

One of my favorite characters, the purple alien Trance, has now changed color (to gold!), and is supposed to now be more "adult". The trouble is I really liked the "original" trance!!! Furthermore, the fascinating Rev Bem seems to have departed for good. The problem is, all of these changes were not plot driven: it seems that the show has lost its original producer, and all of these changes were dictated by the new producer.

Likewise, I would be very reluctant to introduce any more "alternative realities" into the Buffyverse. As Lijdrec stated, it's been done, and doing it again won't really add to the richness or quality of the series.
--------------------------------------------
Xander: Just wait til you have an evil twin and see how you handle it.
Willow: I handled it fine.
from "The Replacement"