by BBOvenGuy » Mon Mar 25, 2002 4:12 pm
quote:
Originally posted by Zahir:
Has anybody ever been 100% right about spoilers?'Cause I can't think of anyone. And so, I simply don't know what's going to happen.
Much as I would love to have that attitude, there's been enough spoilage with enough reliability to demonstrate that something has gone very very wrong. You're right - no one has ever been 100% accurate, but in this case, we don't need 100% accuracy to know which way the wind is blowing.
quote:by Robin » Mon Mar 25, 2002 4:24 pm
quote:
Originally posted by Caesar:
What is wrong with violent sex? How one has sex is up to yourself and your partner. Personally, I love violent sex and B&D; it’s just an individual preference.Saying it’s unnatural and wrong is the kind of thing I hear from the religious nuts in my area about homosexuality.
[This message has been edited by Caesar (edited March 25, 2002).]
(Hope this time, I'll get this post right, never quoted before.)
Well, I don't have any problem with violent sex as long as both partners agree, but the point to me is, I doubt the Buffy we knew from season 5 (and before) would have wanted this kind of sex with Spike.
People change, but the ways the characters have gone in this season, seems to me a bit out of order.
If it was just one character changing and growing (for example Willow like in season 4) or a relationship starting or ending, I wouldn't say a single word, but in this season all of them are hardly to recognize from their actions.
[This message has been edited by Robin (edited March 25, 2002).]
quote:by BigMac » Mon Mar 25, 2002 4:42 pm
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Tara:Assume Crash Positions
by Sela » Mon Mar 25, 2002 4:55 pm
Hey, to each their own--but the fact is, it doesn't make sense, as far as the character of Buffy is concerned. If you like it rough, knock yourself out, both literally and figuratively. But having it played out with Buffy is something I don't need to see. It doesn't fit with her character and it doesn't make me wanna tune in. I'm sure there are people on this board who agree with me.
But aside from the "rough sex" angle, I think you might've missed my point. I wasn't making a statement about morality or trying to force religion on anyone. Please, I don't care what anyone does in their personal lives. Let's keep that out of it. My concern is over the deprivation of the characters. Their actions are reprehensible. The ACTION period is this way. Tara's death, Willow's descension into the darkest of magicks and the consequent killing of Warren, Anya's vengeance hobby, the Troika: poster boys of sociopathic idiocy--all of this is pure and utter crap.
Buffy's engaging in an act that she has once and again expressed her disgust over is merely another example of the awful turn the show has taken. She doesn't feel good about herself. She hates what she's become. Punto y final. And as always, that's just my two cents. Take that as you will.
Edited to add: Thanks, Robin. You just made my point with fewer sentences.
--Sela
[This message has been edited by Sela (edited March 25, 2002).]
by Kamil » Mon Mar 25, 2002 5:01 pm
quote:
Originally posted by Soma:
Am I the only one enjoying this season?? Apart from a few episodes at the beginning, I've really enjoyed quite a number of episodes this year, and I like the turn that the characters have taken. Yes, it is dark, and yes, the spoilers are intimidating. {snippage}
Nah, it's not just you. As far as darkness goes, I really do like my entertainment extra black, with no creme or sugar, please. I've said before, I'm an emotional junkie, and as long as the writers of whatever show I'm watching at the time are feeding that need for extreme highs and lows, I'm good to go.
Doesn't mean I won't weep copious buckets of tears if anyone (except Warren -- may he die screeching for mercy) dies -- of course I will; but then that's kinda the point for me; I need the hurt. The emotions in my RL, assuming I allowed myself to consider having any, don't bear thinking about, so I have to get it all through my entertainment. Hence, I also love the comfort -- and hopefully we'll all get some of that towards the end of this season. Seems only fair after all.
I've been a pretty staunch defender of this season and I'm still happy with it at this moment in time. I'm hoping with *everything* within me that Tara's death is resolved with her coming back (hopefully with Jonathan doing a spell that will redeem him), but if the worst happens, I'll stick with Buffy and Angel. Speaking of dark, ahh, Angel...
I'm working on a Buffyverse vid with a friend of mine right now (to REM's "It's the End of the World as We Know It), and we both noticed that when you take this season and watch it as a whole it hangs together *so* much better. But the way we've seen it this year, with all the normal breaks for sweeps, etc., then the extra breaks they took for the Olympics (Sarah's my baby ), the season is coming off as much more disjointed and off-key than it does when it is viewed as a whole.
I'm so hoping the BSD won't be Tara (pleasepleaseplease), but, honestly? I have nothing but respect for series that will kill their beloved characters. It allows me to engage more with the series, knowing that no one is *really* safe; it adds that extra emotional kick to the show that I crave.
Highlander did it all the time -- almost alarmingly so :0 ; Angel's done it; Buffy did it last year, twice, so maybe they won't need to do it permanently again this year -- and hey, Tim, the Grim Reaper, Minear isn't writing anything for Buffy this season -- so maybe there's hope yet.
In the meantime, I'm huggin' my new puppy, named Xander, and keepin' the faith. Erm, come to think of it, keeping Faith might prove, well, fun; in that life-threatening but sexy sort of way. *eg*
Edited 'cause I don't know how the heck my post from yesterday got appended onto the end of this one -- yikes!
[This message has been edited by Kamil (edited March 25, 2002).]
quote:by BigMac » Mon Mar 25, 2002 5:39 pm
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Tara:Assume Crash Positions
by drlloyd11 » Mon Mar 25, 2002 6:19 pm
quote:quote:
Originally posted by Kamil:
I'm so hoping the BSD won't be Tara (pleasepleaseplease), but, honestly? I have nothing but respect for series that will kill their beloved characters. It allows me to engage more with the series, knowing that no one is *really* safe; it adds that extra emotional kick to the show that I crave.[This message has been edited by Kamil (edited March 25, 2002).]
by Sela » Mon Mar 25, 2002 6:30 pm
Pain I can deal with. Death, destruction, mayhem, psychotic behavior, evil to the nth degree, and unnecessary violence kinda goes beyond my threshold, thank you very much.
I can't say that I respect a show for killing off its beloved characters. If that's the show's MO, then how can you create a fan base? All you'll be doing is burning bridges. If that's attractive, what's the point of investing? It's not the storylines, let me tell ya--this season proves that. Granted, there've been some good shows and some good scenes in the not-so-good shows, but not nearly enough. And the characters? Well, if you kill 'em, why watch?
--Sela
by Caesar » Mon Mar 25, 2002 6:43 pm
quote:
Originally posted by Sela:
Morphine, anyone? I need some anesthesia to get me through the rest of this season.Pain I can deal with. Death, destruction, mayhem, psychotic behavior, evil to the nth degree, and unnecessary violence kinda goes beyond my threshold, thank you very much.
I can't say that I respect a show for killing off its beloved characters. If that's the show's MO, then how can you create a fan base? All you'll be doing is burning bridges. If that's attractive, what's the point of investing? It's not the storylines, let me tell ya--this season proves that. Granted, there've been some good shows and some good scenes in the not-so-good shows, but not nearly enough. And the characters? Well, if you kill 'em, why watch?
--Sela
And its been so depressing; everyone's relationship is broken and Willow, Anya, and Spike may go amok.
quote:by Kamil » Mon Mar 25, 2002 6:56 pm
quote:
Originally posted by Sela:
Morphine, anyone? I need some anesthesia to get me through the rest of this season.
::: hands Sela a nice, soothing morphine drip ::: ::: thinks, and also sends a pint or three of Ben&Jerry's Chunky Monkey and a nice large bottle of 18yr old GlenWhazzit:::
quote:
Pain I can deal with. Death, destruction, mayhem, psychotic behavior, evil to the nth degree, and unnecessary violence kinda goes beyond my threshold, thank you very much.I can't say that I respect a show for killing off its beloved characters. If that's the show's MO, then how can you create a fan base? All you'll be doing is burning bridges. If that's attractive, what's the point of investing?
To me, it makes the show more *real*, I guess you'd say -- 'cause even though I gave up on sitcoms when "The Cosby Show" and "Designing Women" went off the air, much as I loved those two shows, I could never really invest in the characters because I knew at the end of the day all of their problems would be solved and everyone would be safe at home again.
I think my riding instructer said it best, lo, those many years ago when we'd crash and burn at a show: No big thrills and little disappointments. Words I've apparently decided to live by.
But by the same token, I would *never* tell anyone how they should take a character death or what their feelings should be about such an event. Heck, Clan Denial is still going strong in HL fandom -- and Richie's been dead since '97.
But come a HL con, and you'll see a boatload of folks wearing red shirts and reminding Panzer/Davis, loudly, that they *really* didn't approve of Duncan being used as a tool by Ahriman to kill Richie. At all. Clan Denial made such a splash in online fandom at large that when Blair (a character on The Sentinel) spent the summer dead, the Sentinel fen started up Tribe Denial and lo and behold, come the new season Blair wasn't dead after all, he was just damp.
So, umm, Coven Denial, anyone? If worse comes to worse? Which I still think it won't -- at least with Tara; but I do think someone's gonna buy the farm by the end of the year.
Buy the farm. God. I am *such* an Okie. Oh well.
quote:
It's not the storylines, let me tell ya--this season proves that. Granted, there've been some good shows and some good scenes in the not-so-good shows, but not nearly enough. And the characters? Well, if you kill 'em, why watch?--Sela
In my case? So I can sniffle and get all blubbery, like I just did when I was rewatching "Prophecy Girl". Like I do at the end of "Becoming", and "The Body" and, God, "Hero" (the Angel ep where Doyle dies).
What else can I say but the truth? I like it to hurt -- oh, so much. But I totally sympathize with those of you who don't like this, and I'm so worried for how you're gonna handle the rest of the season. ::: lights candles and says prayers for all the kitties who like to stay on the light side of the force :::
edited 'cause the board is determined to continue to append my post from yesterday to all of today's posts.
[This message has been edited by Kamil (edited March 25, 2002).]
[This message has been edited by Kamil (edited March 25, 2002).]
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Being a Buffy fan has taught me to adjust to major angst because I know it’s there to make the show ‘real.’ But when the angst overloads to this degree, it makes the show as much a caricature of real life as neverending happiness does. You can make a show ‘real’ but you can also overcompensate and make it so dark that it becomes almost laughable. If I didn’t care so much about the characters, all this imploding would strike me as just too comical. Unfortunately, I care too much to think that now.
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quote:
Originally posted by BigMac:
I have always said you can find the clues in the episode now about the spoilers even AngelX has said the spoilers are not 100% confirm and this weekend AngelX change some of the spoilers.
speaking of which has anyone had any more news on the whole amusement park dealio in 19? and if no, shant we wonder what exactly is going down that cuases all that.... methinks there could be keys to dvelopment if we knew what was happening/why it was happening with THAT whole warren sitch.
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It's horrible! That's me as a vampire. I'm so evil and... skanky. And I think I'm kinda gay.
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quote:
Originally posted by Sela:
Morphine, anyone? I need some anesthesia to get me through the rest of this season.Pain I can deal with. Death, destruction, mayhem, psychotic behavior, evil to the nth degree, and unnecessary violence kinda goes beyond my threshold, thank you very much.
I can't say that I respect a show for killing off its beloved characters. If that's the show's MO, then how can you create a fan base? All you'll be doing is burning bridges. If that's attractive, what's the point of investing? It's not the storylines, let me tell ya--this season proves that. Granted, there've been some good shows and some good scenes in the not-so-good shows, but not nearly enough. And the characters? Well, if you kill 'em, why watch?
--Sela
I'll gladly offer a hug, possibly you'll get your dose...
But I do hear your point. It is possible (as was shown through the first 5 seasons) to bring a whole universe to life, to have that universe harmful and threatening and macabre, yet to balance it out with love, humor and sharp wits.
What happened? Most people say it begins with Marti and end with Noxon. I say it happened because of us. Our loyalty. Our tolerance. They've taken the loyal viewers for granted, and most of us are mighty pissed off right about now. Tara fans, Willow fans, Buffy fans, Dawn fans (if she has any left that is), Spike fans, Anya fans... everyone loses this season. Even the show itself... It's truly sad that such an epic cult has come to this. I'll go cradle in a corner and weep now...
Dammit, I grew up with these guys! Am I doomed to fall in love madly, get my innocent lover ripped from me in great injustice twice, go bonkers and vanish in a supernova destroying half the city?
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Tara: No, see, 'cause your insect reflection represents your insignificance... in terms of the karmic cycle.
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quote:
Nah, it's not just you. As far as darkness goes, I really do like my entertainment extra black, with no creme or sugar, please. I've said before, I'm an emotional junkie, and as long as the writers of whatever show I'm watching at the time are feeding that need for extreme highs and lows, I'm good to go.
I like dark too but I prefer my dark in movies (I love horror flicks) where you only invest 2 hours in the characters. 22 hours of darkness is a little darker that I like my arts. Still it's nice to hear some folks are happy (a gloom has descended on all the boards).
I think that ME has painted themselves into a corner with the current plot. Too much is happening and folks will feel cheated if they don't wrap up the bulk of the threads. And frankly they just don't have enough time left to do that. I can see them leaving major plot hanging like Anya, Xander and Spike.
They left the key plot hanging by keeping Dawn around. They never really resolved the watcher plot (world is ending and they won't help the slayer?!). What are Willow and Tara's majors (thought that may be resolved in Tara's case)? It's getting like the X-Files where they never resolve anything.
ME may know better than me but I don't see how they can end the season without alienating a large portion of their audience.
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Does ME, Marti, Joss, etal. have a clue what is going on with the fans? The people who pay their salaries?
Cause I have to say the spoilers of late sound like the worst reactionary tirades. I expect better behavior out of my 2 year old.
"Oh, lets screw with the fans. Will give them what they think they want and instead give them what they need."
Kiss my ass.
This season will either end brilliant (I still *want* to give them the benefit of the doubt) or it is going to end in the worst cluster-fuck in televised history.
I don't have to watch pain on TV because some dipshit at ME thinks that's what I need.
If this is there idea of "growing up" then they are more screwed up than I thought.
I'll quote Tom Waites on this one.
quote:
I'm gonna put a hole in my T.V. set
I don't wanna grow up
Open up the medicine chest
I don't wanna grow upI don't wanna have to shout it out
I don't want my hair to fall out
I don't wanna be filled with doubt
I don't wanna be a good boy scout
I don't wanna have to learn to count
I don't wanna have the biggest amount
I don't wanna grow up
Gravitating back to "pissed off" and moving to "screw watching the finale" at high impluse.
I'll watch till Tara and Willow get back together and then let you all tell me the news. It will be interesting to watch the ratings.
Warlock.
------------------
Web Warlock
web.warlock@attbi.com webwarlock@planetadnd.com
Author, the Netbooks of Witches and Warlocks
The Other Side: http://www.xtreme-gaming.com/theotherside/
My Willow&Tara Pages: http://www.xtreme-gaming.com/theotherside/willtara.php
Shadow Earth Games: http://www.rpghost.com/WebWarlock/
--
I'm ahead of my time. But only by a week.
- Too Much Joy, "I Don't Know"
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quote:
Originally posted by Kendahl897:
If I'm wrong, I wil personally come on this board, apologize and call Joss every name in the book. But I'm going to wait until I know............
And we'll accept your apology, as long as you don't go back and edit all your old posts.
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quote:I think that ME has painted themselves into a corner with the current plot. Too much is happening and folks will feel cheated if they don't wrap up the bulk of the threads. And frankly they just don't have enough time left to do that.
I've been thinking that 22 may be continued in 23; aka ep 1 season 7. leading into...
quote:
I can see them leaving major plot hanging like Anya, Xander and Spike.
quote:
ME may know better than me but I don't see how they can end the season without alienating a large portion of their audience.
From what Donna and Gillian have said over the years, producers and writers consider themselves lucky if 99.99% of the actual viewers, who really don't consider themselves fans at all, just ordinary folks who watch teevee, remember the names of all of the feature characters, never mind their SO's and their various plot threads. Most teevee viewers turn on the shows they like, watch, then turn them off again and don't think about that particular show again until the next new ep airs.
The net makes everything so much more personal for *us* -- but for the folks paying the dollars for the productions (which isn't ME) everything is a business and big drama brings in big numbers. For people who aren't as invested in characters as we are, watching one die becomes Something Memorable from that weeks viewing -- which leads to those same folks making sure to remember to watch next week to see if that nasty so and so gets his/her comuppance -- which in the minds of the bean counters is A Good Thing.
Dammit.
For y'all's sake. I really am sorry that this is going down this way -- if I had to pick a character to die so that I could suffer in the most blissful possible way, I'd pick Angel -- cause that'd hurt Buffy (and me), the most, and I could cry and mourn over that ep for weeks on end.
I'm a sad, sick puppy, aren't I? *wry grin*
edited 'cause ya know, the kitty really wants me to repeat myself today...
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--
Kamil
Gunn: "I mean, who has time for love when you're out there doing it with the demons...and didn't that just come out sad and wrong."
"Heartthrob" Angel
[This message has been edited by Kamil (edited March 25, 2002).]
[This message has been edited by Kamil (edited March 26, 2002).]
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. I still say those in the basement at the of EP17 are alive by the end of EP22. So check the clues in EP'S12-17 and you will know about what is going to happen in EP'S18-22 for I beleave Tara is not the BSD and that's from the clues Ihave found so far.
If you go by this theory, I will add another: In Older and Far Away, when Dawn is in her bedroom having a tantrum, the following cast members are present to console her:
Buffy, Xander, Willow, Tara, and Spike
No Anya
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quote:
Originally posted by spikeme:If you go by this theory, I will add another: In Older and Far Away, when Dawn is in her bedroom having a tantrum, the following cast members are present to console her:
Buffy, Xander, Willow, Tara, and Spike
No Anya
[/b]
I don't know if I would give that too much thought. For blocking purposes the room and angles would be too small for them all to be there. But on the same token, Spike did not say a word so why have him there? Which maybe could be another example of foreshadowing. We could drive ourselves insane with this. I for one don't know how a "reset" could work. I don't think the SG have "paid" for Buffy's return yet and I don't see how they could bring back two seperate dead characters in the same season and make it beleivable. I have been sick since reading the news of Tara's senseless killing and I think I have moved on to resignation. I have thought since the beginning of S5 when she wasn't in the main credits that they were going to kill her off somehow. That said I am hoping that ME pulls something out of a hat and dazzles me and makes me glad to be a fan, cause we need something after watching this season. If I wanted to watch all this darkness, death and angst I would watch CNN.
[This message has been edited by Ghostwriter (edited March 25, 2002).]
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quote:
Originally posted by kpmuse: In fact, I already canceled all my comic orders, Season 2 DVD orders, Buffy Magazine. My letters are written and ready to go.
I had planned to buy a DVD player with my IRS refund check specifically to buy the Buffy boxed sets. That's now on hold depending on the outcome of Tara. If she stays dead I'll quit watching BTVS and will NOT buy anything Buffy related. If Tara is alive and well by seasons end, hello DVDs.
The economy is also rooting for Tara.
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Okay, so what did they actually do wrong? Messed with dangerous powers beyond their comprehension and feasably beyond their control. That's mostly on Willow's head. She was the ring leader and it was clearly her own hubris that made her so sure she could do it. And that's something she's been paying for, for most of the season now.
But I don't think you can discount what was motivating her. Because I think motivation actually counts a great deal. And she really did believe she was saving Buffy. Willow was clearly tormented by the thought that Buffy was being tortured in some hell dimension because of how she had died saving them. Now, that may not be completely rational, but given the history she's familiar with, it wasn't an illogical conclusion.
And who knows, maybe she did actually wind up 'saving' Buffy from an alternative reality, where she was nothing more than a crazy girl locked up in a psycho ward. The fact that Buffy herself perceived it as Heaven had more to do with the fact that she didn't have the burdens there that she had as the slayer. That's why it was so hard to let go of. For her, it must have been almost like becoming a child again, free of the responsiblities that had been weighing on her for so long.
That's what Normal Again suggested, wasn't it?
There's also the fact that what she did was essentially nothing more than ask a favor from Osiris. She didn't force him to grant her request. She followed the ritual, faced his test, no matter how painful it was for her, and then it was Osiris who allowed Buffy to brought back. If it was totally wrong, as it clearly will be with Tara, then she wouldn't have been able to do it in the first place.
Now, I do think there's still a gaping hole in the 'prices yet to be paid' column for the season. But that's not Willow's. It's Xander's for summoning the dancing demon. And he did it, why? So that he and Anya would work out and have a happy ending.
In terms of sheer wrongness, I'd rank summoning that demon a few notches above the resurrection spell. Both because he did it for a completely selfish reason, and because it had such serious consequences in actually getting people killed.
I so think the debt for that one is going to come due by the end of the season.
And logic says it'll cost him the very thing he was hoping for in the first place. 'Cause irony's kind of ironic that way.
They even made it a point to remind us of what he did in OAFA, and even that he knew how wrong it was.
Ari
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I also agree that a reset is iminant. But I hate the idea of it. It's completely unoriginal. But if it helps the show get back to something resembling normality, then perhaps it should happen. There have been too many co-incidiences with the final episodes of the Season which indicate a rest is going to happen. The main one being Anya having a demonic powers given to her. Why wait this long? Surely, the writers could have incorporated them earlier? Why now? Why this late in the Season? I believe Anya's powers will have a greater purpose, namely, a reset.
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I second that notion. All I can say is I have one word for them "cancellation" I mean let's think about this for a second, Tara dead, Willow evil, god knows where everyone else is. Who wants to watch that? Not me! I think I would rather have needles stuck in my eyes - less painful.
OK rant over
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"It was inconclusive and I didn't stick around to find out. I might have magic'd my fist through a wall or something - Willow (Normal Again)
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Here's the but in a strange way I ahve found Bob and Xita's location report quite comforting, why you may ask, because the Willow in the scene described is not our Will and in fact looks and sounds like another person altogether. I believe that "our" Willow "dies" the minute that bullet enters Tara body and kills her. Now without some sort of reset they just have a short lived character who will eventually burn herself out. I can't imagine for one secnd that they are going to get rid of Aly so again I say reset. Well that is my hope and I am clinging to it
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Tara: My heart doesn't stutter.
Tara: Willow, I got so lost.
Willow: I found you. I will always find you.
Tara: Nobody messes with my girl!
Willow: Hi, um Tara. How are you? I was wondering maybe you want to go out sometime for coffee? food? kisses and gay love?
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Being a Buffy fan has taught me to adjust to major angst because I know it’s there to make the show ‘real.’ But when the angst overloads to this degree, it makes the show as much a caricature of real life as neverending happiness does. You can make a show ‘real’ but you can also overcompensate and make it so dark that it becomes almost laughable. If I didn’t care so much about the characters, all this imploding would strike me as just too comical. Unfortunately, I care too much to think that now.
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posted March 25, 2002 21:32 At least that’s one advantage of being spoiled. I can’t imagine what those poor unspoiled souls are going to go through in a month. Every time I come across one in the other threads I want to yell, “Prepare yourselves!!” but I don’t. It seems especially unfair to them, because technically we’re all supposed to be unspoiled for the final eps.Being a Buffy fan has taught me to adjust to major angst because I know it’s there to make the show ‘real.’ But when the angst overloads to this degree, it makes the show as much a caricature of real life as neverending happiness does. You can make a show ‘real’ but you can also overcompensate and make it so dark that it becomes almost laughable. If I didn’t care so much about the characters, all this imploding would strike me as just too comical. Unfortunately, I care too much to think that now.
quote:
Originally posted by BigMac:
I have always said you can find the clues in the episode now about the spoilers even AngelX has said the spoilers are not 100% confirm and this weekend AngelX change some of the spoilers.
speaking of which has anyone had any more news on the whole amusement park dealio in 19? and if no, shant we wonder what exactly is going down that cuases all that.... methinks there could be keys to dvelopment if we knew what was happening/why it was happening with THAT whole warren sitch.
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It's horrible! That's me as a vampire. I'm so evil and... skanky. And I think I'm kinda gay.
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posted March 25, 2002 21:33quote:
Originally posted by BigMac:
I have always said you can find the clues in the episode now about the spoilers even AngelX has said the spoilers are not 100% confirm and this weekend AngelX change some of the spoilers.
speaking of which has anyone had any more news on the whole amusement park dealio in 19? and if no, shant we wonder what exactly is going down that cuases all that.... methinks there could be keys to dvelopment if we knew what was happening/why it was happening with THAT whole warren sitch.
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It's horrible! That's me as a vampire. I'm so evil and... skanky. And I think I'm kinda gay.
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posted March 25, 2002 21:44 Well, I gotta say, I personally think angst just for angst's sake- just to make the characters and the audience suffer, and make us all blubbery, and just for the shock value- is frankly bad storytelling, and not something I will enjoy watching. At all. Every season so far, there has been a lesson to be learned- by Buffy, by the gang. There have been logical storylines, and the violence done to and by the characters has, for the most part, not been gratuitous. I'm hoping there will be a point to all this. But I won't sit by and be subjected to writers who buy into a "The audience needs to suffer" attitude. Been there, done that for far too long with Xena. As a fan, I'll need to see some point to all this, and more importantly to see it very much made right, by the end of this season's finale. If not, they'll lose me as a fan. Which granted won't make a huge difference to them, but may make me a bit happier.IP: LoggedMorphineDoll's Eye Crystal quote:
Originally posted by Sela:
Morphine, anyone? I need some anesthesia to get me through the rest of this season.Pain I can deal with. Death, destruction, mayhem, psychotic behavior, evil to the nth degree, and unnecessary violence kinda goes beyond my threshold, thank you very much.
I can't say that I respect a show for killing off its beloved characters. If that's the show's MO, then how can you create a fan base? All you'll be doing is burning bridges. If that's attractive, what's the point of investing? It's not the storylines, let me tell ya--this season proves that. Granted, there've been some good shows and some good scenes in the not-so-good shows, but not nearly enough. And the characters? Well, if you kill 'em, why watch?
--Sela
I'll gladly offer a hug, possibly you'll get your dose...
But I do hear your point. It is possible (as was shown through the first 5 seasons) to bring a whole universe to life, to have that universe harmful and threatening and macabre, yet to balance it out with love, humor and sharp wits.
What happened? Most people say it begins with Marti and end with Noxon. I say it happened because of us. Our loyalty. Our tolerance. They've taken the loyal viewers for granted, and most of us are mighty pissed off right about now. Tara fans, Willow fans, Buffy fans, Dawn fans (if she has any left that is), Spike fans, Anya fans... everyone loses this season. Even the show itself... It's truly sad that such an epic cult has come to this. I'll go cradle in a corner and weep now...
Dammit, I grew up with these guys! Am I doomed to fall in love madly, get my innocent lover ripped from me in great injustice twice, go bonkers and vanish in a supernova destroying half the city?
------------------
Tara: No, see, 'cause your insect reflection represents your insignificance... in terms of the karmic cycle.
IP: Logged
posted March 25, 2002 21:51quote:
Originally posted by Sela:
Morphine, anyone? I need some anesthesia to get me through the rest of this season.Pain I can deal with. Death, destruction, mayhem, psychotic behavior, evil to the nth degree, and unnecessary violence kinda goes beyond my threshold, thank you very much.
I can't say that I respect a show for killing off its beloved characters. If that's the show's MO, then how can you create a fan base? All you'll be doing is burning bridges. If that's attractive, what's the point of investing? It's not the storylines, let me tell ya--this season proves that. Granted, there've been some good shows and some good scenes in the not-so-good shows, but not nearly enough. And the characters? Well, if you kill 'em, why watch?
--Sela
I'll gladly offer a hug, possibly you'll get your dose...
But I do hear your point. It is possible (as was shown through the first 5 seasons) to bring a whole universe to life, to have that universe harmful and threatening and macabre, yet to balance it out with love, humor and sharp wits.
What happened? Most people say it begins with Marti and end with Noxon. I say it happened because of us. Our loyalty. Our tolerance. They've taken the loyal viewers for granted, and most of us are mighty pissed off right about now. Tara fans, Willow fans, Buffy fans, Dawn fans (if she has any left that is), Spike fans, Anya fans... everyone loses this season. Even the show itself... It's truly sad that such an epic cult has come to this. I'll go cradle in a corner and weep now...
Dammit, I grew up with these guys! Am I doomed to fall in love madly, get my innocent lover ripped from me in great injustice twice, go bonkers and vanish in a supernova destroying half the city?
------------------
Tara: No, see, 'cause your insect reflection represents your insignificance... in terms of the karmic cycle.
quote:
Nah, it's not just you. As far as darkness goes, I really do like my entertainment extra black, with no creme or sugar, please. I've said before, I'm an emotional junkie, and as long as the writers of whatever show I'm watching at the time are feeding that need for extreme highs and lows, I'm good to go.
I like dark too but I prefer my dark in movies (I love horror flicks) where you only invest 2 hours in the characters. 22 hours of darkness is a little darker that I like my arts. Still it's nice to hear some folks are happy (a gloom has descended on all the boards).
I think that ME has painted themselves into a corner with the current plot. Too much is happening and folks will feel cheated if they don't wrap up the bulk of the threads. And frankly they just don't have enough time left to do that. I can see them leaving major plot hanging like Anya, Xander and Spike.
They left the key plot hanging by keeping Dawn around. They never really resolved the watcher plot (world is ending and they won't help the slayer?!). What are Willow and Tara's majors (thought that may be resolved in Tara's case)? It's getting like the X-Files where they never resolve anything.
ME may know better than me but I don't see how they can end the season without alienating a large portion of their audience.
IP: Logged
posted March 25, 2002 21:54 Kamil said:quote:
Nah, it's not just you. As far as darkness goes, I really do like my entertainment extra black, with no creme or sugar, please. I've said before, I'm an emotional junkie, and as long as the writers of whatever show I'm watching at the time are feeding that need for extreme highs and lows, I'm good to go.
I like dark too but I prefer my dark in movies (I love horror flicks) where you only invest 2 hours in the characters. 22 hours of darkness is a little darker that I like my arts. Still it's nice to hear some folks are happy (a gloom has descended on all the boards).
I think that ME has painted themselves into a corner with the current plot. Too much is happening and folks will feel cheated if they don't wrap up the bulk of the threads. And frankly they just don't have enough time left to do that. I can see them leaving major plot hanging like Anya, Xander and Spike.
They left the key plot hanging by keeping Dawn around. They never really resolved the watcher plot (world is ending and they won't help the slayer?!). What are Willow and Tara's majors (thought that may be resolved in Tara's case)? It's getting like the X-Files where they never resolve anything.
ME may know better than me but I don't see how they can end the season without alienating a large portion of their audience.
quote:IP: LoggedWeb WarlockSassy Eggs Does ME, Marti, Joss, etal. have a clue what is going on with the fans? The people who pay their salaries?
Cause I have to say the spoilers of late sound like the worst reactionary tirades. I expect better behavior out of my 2 year old.
"Oh, lets screw with the fans. Will give them what they think they want and instead give them what they need."
Kiss my ass.
This season will either end brilliant (I still *want* to give them the benefit of the doubt) or it is going to end in the worst cluster-fuck in televised history.
I don't have to watch pain on TV because some dipshit at ME thinks that's what I need.
If this is there idea of "growing up" then they are more screwed up than I thought.
I'll quote Tom Waites on this one.
quote:
I'm gonna put a hole in my T.V. set
I don't wanna grow up
Open up the medicine chest
I don't wanna grow upI don't wanna have to shout it out
I don't want my hair to fall out
I don't wanna be filled with doubt
I don't wanna be a good boy scout
I don't wanna have to learn to count
I don't wanna have the biggest amount
I don't wanna grow up
Gravitating back to "pissed off" and moving to "screw watching the finale" at high impluse.
I'll watch till Tara and Willow get back together and then let you all tell me the news. It will be interesting to watch the ratings.
Warlock.
------------------
Web Warlock
web.warlock@attbi.com webwarlock@planetadnd.com
Author, the Netbooks of Witches and Warlocks
The Other Side: http://www.xtreme-gaming.com/theotherside/
My Willow&Tara Pages: http://www.xtreme-gaming.com/theotherside/willtara.php
Shadow Earth Games: http://www.rpghost.com/WebWarlock/
--
I'm ahead of my time. But only by a week.
- Too Much Joy, "I Don't Know"
IP: Logged
posted March 25, 2002 22:05 I have asked this question before. But the last two pages make me want to ask it again.Does ME, Marti, Joss, etal. have a clue what is going on with the fans? The people who pay their salaries?
Cause I have to say the spoilers of late sound like the worst reactionary tirades. I expect better behavior out of my 2 year old.
"Oh, lets screw with the fans. Will give them what they think they want and instead give them what they need."
Kiss my ass.
This season will either end brilliant (I still *want* to give them the benefit of the doubt) or it is going to end in the worst cluster-fuck in televised history.
I don't have to watch pain on TV because some dipshit at ME thinks that's what I need.
If this is there idea of "growing up" then they are more screwed up than I thought.
I'll quote Tom Waites on this one.
quote:
I'm gonna put a hole in my T.V. set
I don't wanna grow up
Open up the medicine chest
I don't wanna grow upI don't wanna have to shout it out
I don't want my hair to fall out
I don't wanna be filled with doubt
I don't wanna be a good boy scout
I don't wanna have to learn to count
I don't wanna have the biggest amount
I don't wanna grow up
Gravitating back to "pissed off" and moving to "screw watching the finale" at high impluse.
I'll watch till Tara and Willow get back together and then let you all tell me the news. It will be interesting to watch the ratings.
Warlock.
------------------
Web Warlock
web.warlock@attbi.com webwarlock@planetadnd.com
Author, the Netbooks of Witches and Warlocks
The Other Side: http://www.xtreme-gaming.com/theotherside/
My Willow&Tara Pages: http://www.xtreme-gaming.com/theotherside/willtara.php
Shadow Earth Games: http://www.rpghost.com/WebWarlock/
--
I'm ahead of my time. But only by a week.
- Too Much Joy, "I Don't Know"
IP: Logged
posted March 25, 2002 22:07 People seem to be judging the end of the season before we ever even get to it. I know we've all gone through alot of angst this season, with all of the characters, but especially with the Willow and Tara breakup. But guess what, in a month we get to see them re-unite with a love scene that I'm betting will be the most romantic, the most sexual and the most sensual between two women on prime time TV. quote:
Originally posted by Kendahl897:
If I'm wrong, I wil personally come on this board, apologize and call Joss every name in the book. But I'm going to wait until I know............
And we'll accept your apology, as long as you don't go back and edit all your old posts.
IP: Logged
posted March 25, 2002 22:13quote:
Originally posted by Kendahl897:
If I'm wrong, I wil personally come on this board, apologize and call Joss every name in the book. But I'm going to wait until I know............
And we'll accept your apology, as long as you don't go back and edit all your old posts.
quote:IP: LoggedKamilFloating Rose quote:I think that ME has painted themselves into a corner with the current plot. Too much is happening and folks will feel cheated if they don't wrap up the bulk of the threads. And frankly they just don't have enough time left to do that.
I've been thinking that 22 may be continued in 23; aka ep 1 season 7. leading into...
quote:
I can see them leaving major plot hanging like Anya, Xander and Spike.
quote:
ME may know better than me but I don't see how they can end the season without alienating a large portion of their audience.
From what Donna and Gillian have said over the years, producers and writers consider themselves lucky if 99.99% of the actual viewers, who really don't consider themselves fans at all, just ordinary folks who watch teevee, remember the names of all of the feature characters, never mind their SO's and their various plot threads. Most teevee viewers turn on the shows they like, watch, then turn them off again and don't think about that particular show again until the next new ep airs.
The net makes everything so much more personal for *us* -- but for the folks paying the dollars for the productions (which isn't ME) everything is a business and big drama brings in big numbers. For people who aren't as invested in characters as we are, watching one die becomes Something Memorable from that weeks viewing -- which leads to those same folks making sure to remember to watch next week to see if that nasty so and so gets his/her comuppance -- which in the minds of the bean counters is A Good Thing.
Dammit.
For y'all's sake. I really am sorry that this is going down this way -- if I had to pick a character to die so that I could suffer in the most blissful possible way, I'd pick Angel -- cause that'd hurt Buffy (and me), the most, and I could cry and mourn over that ep for weeks on end.
I'm a sad, sick puppy, aren't I? *wry grin*
edited 'cause ya know, the kitty really wants me to repeat myself today...
------------------
--
Kamil
Gunn: "I mean, who has time for love when you're out there doing it with the demons...and didn't that just come out sad and wrong."
"Heartthrob" Angel
[This message has been edited by Kamil (edited March 25, 2002).]
[This message has been edited by Kamil (edited March 26, 2002).]
IP: Logged
. I still say those in the basement at the of EP17 are alive by the end of EP22. So check the clues in EP'S12-17 and you will know about what is going to happen in EP'S18-22 for I beleave Tara is not the BSD and that's from the clues Ihave found so far.
If you go by this theory, I will add another: In Older and Far Away, when Dawn is in her bedroom having a tantrum, the following cast members are present to console her:
Buffy, Xander, Willow, Tara, and Spike
No Anya
IP: Logged
IP: Logged
quote:
Originally posted by spikeme:If you go by this theory, I will add another: In Older and Far Away, when Dawn is in her bedroom having a tantrum, the following cast members are present to console her:
Buffy, Xander, Willow, Tara, and Spike
No Anya
[/b]
I don't know if I would give that too much thought. For blocking purposes the room and angles would be too small for them all to be there. But on the same token, Spike did not say a word so why have him there? Which maybe could be another example of foreshadowing. We could drive ourselves insane with this. I for one don't know how a "reset" could work. I don't think the SG have "paid" for Buffy's return yet and I don't see how they could bring back two seperate dead characters in the same season and make it beleivable. I have been sick since reading the news of Tara's senseless killing and I think I have moved on to resignation. I have thought since the beginning of S5 when she wasn't in the main credits that they were going to kill her off somehow. That said I am hoping that ME pulls something out of a hat and dazzles me and makes me glad to be a fan, cause we need something after watching this season. If I wanted to watch all this darkness, death and angst I would watch CNN.
[This message has been edited by Ghostwriter (edited March 25, 2002).]
IP: Logged
quote:
Originally posted by kpmuse: In fact, I already canceled all my comic orders, Season 2 DVD orders, Buffy Magazine. My letters are written and ready to go.
I had planned to buy a DVD player with my IRS refund check specifically to buy the Buffy boxed sets. That's now on hold depending on the outcome of Tara. If she stays dead I'll quit watching BTVS and will NOT buy anything Buffy related. If Tara is alive and well by seasons end, hello DVDs.
The economy is also rooting for Tara.
IP: Logged
IP: Logged
Okay, so what did they actually do wrong? Messed with dangerous powers beyond their comprehension and feasably beyond their control. That's mostly on Willow's head. She was the ring leader and it was clearly her own hubris that made her so sure she could do it. And that's something she's been paying for, for most of the season now.
But I don't think you can discount what was motivating her. Because I think motivation actually counts a great deal. And she really did believe she was saving Buffy. Willow was clearly tormented by the thought that Buffy was being tortured in some hell dimension because of how she had died saving them. Now, that may not be completely rational, but given the history she's familiar with, it wasn't an illogical conclusion.
And who knows, maybe she did actually wind up 'saving' Buffy from an alternative reality, where she was nothing more than a crazy girl locked up in a psycho ward. The fact that Buffy herself perceived it as Heaven had more to do with the fact that she didn't have the burdens there that she had as the slayer. That's why it was so hard to let go of. For her, it must have been almost like becoming a child again, free of the responsiblities that had been weighing on her for so long.
That's what Normal Again suggested, wasn't it?
There's also the fact that what she did was essentially nothing more than ask a favor from Osiris. She didn't force him to grant her request. She followed the ritual, faced his test, no matter how painful it was for her, and then it was Osiris who allowed Buffy to brought back. If it was totally wrong, as it clearly will be with Tara, then she wouldn't have been able to do it in the first place.
Now, I do think there's still a gaping hole in the 'prices yet to be paid' column for the season. But that's not Willow's. It's Xander's for summoning the dancing demon. And he did it, why? So that he and Anya would work out and have a happy ending.
In terms of sheer wrongness, I'd rank summoning that demon a few notches above the resurrection spell. Both because he did it for a completely selfish reason, and because it had such serious consequences in actually getting people killed.
I so think the debt for that one is going to come due by the end of the season.
And logic says it'll cost him the very thing he was hoping for in the first place. 'Cause irony's kind of ironic that way.
They even made it a point to remind us of what he did in OAFA, and even that he knew how wrong it was.
Ari
IP: Logged
I also agree that a reset is iminant. But I hate the idea of it. It's completely unoriginal. But if it helps the show get back to something resembling normality, then perhaps it should happen. There have been too many co-incidiences with the final episodes of the Season which indicate a rest is going to happen. The main one being Anya having a demonic powers given to her. Why wait this long? Surely, the writers could have incorporated them earlier? Why now? Why this late in the Season? I believe Anya's powers will have a greater purpose, namely, a reset.
IP: Logged
IP: Logged
I second that notion. All I can say is I have one word for them "cancellation" I mean let's think about this for a second, Tara dead, Willow evil, god knows where everyone else is. Who wants to watch that? Not me! I think I would rather have needles stuck in my eyes - less painful.
OK rant over
------------------
"It was inconclusive and I didn't stick around to find out. I might have magic'd my fist through a wall or something - Willow (Normal Again)
IP: Logged
Here's the but in a strange way I ahve found Bob and Xita's location report quite comforting, why you may ask, because the Willow in the scene described is not our Will and in fact looks and sounds like another person altogether. I believe that "our" Willow "dies" the minute that bullet enters Tara body and kills her. Now without some sort of reset they just have a short lived character who will eventually burn herself out. I can't imagine for one secnd that they are going to get rid of Aly so again I say reset. Well that is my hope and I am clinging to it
IP: Logged
------------------
Tara: My heart doesn't stutter.
Tara: Willow, I got so lost.
Willow: I found you. I will always find you.
Tara: Nobody messes with my girl!
Willow: Hi, um Tara. How are you? I was wondering maybe you want to go out sometime for coffee? food? kisses and gay love?
IP: Logged
quote:I think that ME has painted themselves into a corner with the current plot. Too much is happening and folks will feel cheated if they don't wrap up the bulk of the threads. And frankly they just don't have enough time left to do that.
I've been thinking that 22 may be continued in 23; aka ep 1 season 7. leading into...
quote:
I can see them leaving major plot hanging like Anya, Xander and Spike.
quote:
ME may know better than me but I don't see how they can end the season without alienating a large portion of their audience.
From what Donna and Gillian have said over the years, producers and writers consider themselves lucky if 99.99% of the actual viewers, who really don't consider themselves fans at all, just ordinary folks who watch teevee, remember the names of all of the feature characters, never mind their SO's and their various plot threads. Most teevee viewers turn on the shows they like, watch, then turn them off again and don't think about that particular show again until the next new ep airs.
The net makes everything so much more personal for *us* -- but for the folks paying the dollars for the productions (which isn't ME) everything is a business and big drama brings in big numbers. For people who aren't as invested in characters as we are, watching one die becomes Something Memorable from that weeks viewing -- which leads to those same folks making sure to remember to watch next week to see if that nasty so and so gets his/her comuppance -- which in the minds of the bean counters is A Good Thing.
Dammit.
For y'all's sake. I really am sorry that this is going down this way -- if I had to pick a character to die so that I could suffer in the most blissful possible way, I'd pick Angel -- cause that'd hurt Buffy (and me), the most, and I could cry and mourn over that ep for weeks on end.
I'm a sad, sick puppy, aren't I? *wry grin*
edited 'cause ya know, the kitty really wants me to repeat myself today...
------------------
--
Kamil
Gunn: "I mean, who has time for love when you're out there doing it with the demons...and didn't that just come out sad and wrong."
"Heartthrob" Angel
[This message has been edited by Kamil (edited March 25, 2002).]
[This message has been edited by Kamil (edited March 26, 2002).]
IP: Logged
. I still say those in the basement at the of EP17 are alive by the end of EP22. So check the clues in EP'S12-17 and you will know about what is going to happen in EP'S18-22 for I beleave Tara is not the BSD and that's from the clues Ihave found so far.
If you go by this theory, I will add another: In Older and Far Away, when Dawn is in her bedroom having a tantrum, the following cast members are present to console her:
Buffy, Xander, Willow, Tara, and Spike
No Anya
IP: Logged
IP: Logged
quote:
Originally posted by spikeme:If you go by this theory, I will add another: In Older and Far Away, when Dawn is in her bedroom having a tantrum, the following cast members are present to console her:
Buffy, Xander, Willow, Tara, and Spike
No Anya
[/b]
I don't know if I would give that too much thought. For blocking purposes the room and angles would be too small for them all to be there. But on the same token, Spike did not say a word so why have him there? Which maybe could be another example of foreshadowing. We could drive ourselves insane with this. I for one don't know how a "reset" could work. I don't think the SG have "paid" for Buffy's return yet and I don't see how they could bring back two seperate dead characters in the same season and make it beleivable. I have been sick since reading the news of Tara's senseless killing and I think I have moved on to resignation. I have thought since the beginning of S5 when she wasn't in the main credits that they were going to kill her off somehow. That said I am hoping that ME pulls something out of a hat and dazzles me and makes me glad to be a fan, cause we need something after watching this season. If I wanted to watch all this darkness, death and angst I would watch CNN.
[This message has been edited by Ghostwriter (edited March 25, 2002).]
IP: Logged
quote:
Originally posted by kpmuse: In fact, I already canceled all my comic orders, Season 2 DVD orders, Buffy Magazine. My letters are written and ready to go.
I had planned to buy a DVD player with my IRS refund check specifically to buy the Buffy boxed sets. That's now on hold depending on the outcome of Tara. If she stays dead I'll quit watching BTVS and will NOT buy anything Buffy related. If Tara is alive and well by seasons end, hello DVDs.
The economy is also rooting for Tara.
IP: Logged
IP: Logged
Okay, so what did they actually do wrong? Messed with dangerous powers beyond their comprehension and feasably beyond their control. That's mostly on Willow's head. She was the ring leader and it was clearly her own hubris that made her so sure she could do it. And that's something she's been paying for, for most of the season now.
But I don't think you can discount what was motivating her. Because I think motivation actually counts a great deal. And she really did believe she was saving Buffy. Willow was clearly tormented by the thought that Buffy was being tortured in some hell dimension because of how she had died saving them. Now, that may not be completely rational, but given the history she's familiar with, it wasn't an illogical conclusion.
And who knows, maybe she did actually wind up 'saving' Buffy from an alternative reality, where she was nothing more than a crazy girl locked up in a psycho ward. The fact that Buffy herself perceived it as Heaven had more to do with the fact that she didn't have the burdens there that she had as the slayer. That's why it was so hard to let go of. For her, it must have been almost like becoming a child again, free of the responsiblities that had been weighing on her for so long.
That's what Normal Again suggested, wasn't it?
There's also the fact that what she did was essentially nothing more than ask a favor from Osiris. She didn't force him to grant her request. She followed the ritual, faced his test, no matter how painful it was for her, and then it was Osiris who allowed Buffy to brought back. If it was totally wrong, as it clearly will be with Tara, then she wouldn't have been able to do it in the first place.
Now, I do think there's still a gaping hole in the 'prices yet to be paid' column for the season. But that's not Willow's. It's Xander's for summoning the dancing demon. And he did it, why? So that he and Anya would work out and have a happy ending.
In terms of sheer wrongness, I'd rank summoning that demon a few notches above the resurrection spell. Both because he did it for a completely selfish reason, and because it had such serious consequences in actually getting people killed.
I so think the debt for that one is going to come due by the end of the season.
And logic says it'll cost him the very thing he was hoping for in the first place. 'Cause irony's kind of ironic that way.
They even made it a point to remind us of what he did in OAFA, and even that he knew how wrong it was.
Ari
IP: Logged
I also agree that a reset is iminant. But I hate the idea of it. It's completely unoriginal. But if it helps the show get back to something resembling normality, then perhaps it should happen. There have been too many co-incidiences with the final episodes of the Season which indicate a rest is going to happen. The main one being Anya having a demonic powers given to her. Why wait this long? Surely, the writers could have incorporated them earlier? Why now? Why this late in the Season? I believe Anya's powers will have a greater purpose, namely, a reset.
IP: Logged
IP: Logged
I second that notion. All I can say is I have one word for them "cancellation" I mean let's think about this for a second, Tara dead, Willow evil, god knows where everyone else is. Who wants to watch that? Not me! I think I would rather have needles stuck in my eyes - less painful.
OK rant over
------------------
"It was inconclusive and I didn't stick around to find out. I might have magic'd my fist through a wall or something - Willow (Normal Again)
IP: Logged
Here's the but in a strange way I ahve found Bob and Xita's location report quite comforting, why you may ask, because the Willow in the scene described is not our Will and in fact looks and sounds like another person altogether. I believe that "our" Willow "dies" the minute that bullet enters Tara body and kills her. Now without some sort of reset they just have a short lived character who will eventually burn herself out. I can't imagine for one secnd that they are going to get rid of Aly so again I say reset. Well that is my hope and I am clinging to it
IP: Logged
------------------
Tara: My heart doesn't stutter.
Tara: Willow, I got so lost.
Willow: I found you. I will always find you.
Tara: Nobody messes with my girl!
Willow: Hi, um Tara. How are you? I was wondering maybe you want to go out sometime for coffee? food? kisses and gay love?
IP: Logged
. I still say those in the basement at the of EP17 are alive by the end of EP22. So check the clues in EP'S12-17 and you will know about what is going to happen in EP'S18-22 for I beleave Tara is not the BSD and that's from the clues Ihave found so far.
If you go by this theory, I will add another: In Older and Far Away, when Dawn is in her bedroom having a tantrum, the following cast members are present to console her:
Buffy, Xander, Willow, Tara, and Spike
No Anya
IP: Logged
posted March 25, 2002 22:24 Regarding BigMac's comment:. I still say those in the basement at the of EP17 are alive by the end of EP22. So check the clues in EP'S12-17 and you will know about what is going to happen in EP'S18-22 for I beleave Tara is not the BSD and that's from the clues Ihave found so far.
If you go by this theory, I will add another: In Older and Far Away, when Dawn is in her bedroom having a tantrum, the following cast members are present to console her:
Buffy, Xander, Willow, Tara, and Spike
No Anya
IP: LoggedKendahl897Cool Monster Fighter IP: Logged
posted March 25, 2002 22:42 I won't go back and edit my posts. And I will apologize. But I also realize that something pretty major is going to have to happen by the end of episode 22 and not just for Tara's sake either. The foretelling by Sam of what happens to people who delve too deeply into the dark magic was put there for a reason. From what BBQ Guy has posted, by the time Willow is after Andrew and Jonathan, she has consumed enough dark magic to turn her hair and eyes black. I don't think there's any going back for her at this point. She is beyond reason and as Xita so accurately put it, on a suicide run. Then there's Spike, who I'm guessing comes back from Africa with his mission accomplished-he's dechipped. Also, let's not forget Anya, who has returned to being a vengance demon. Now I'm just guessin when I say that D'Hoffryn would not let her back into the fold without putting conditions on that, especially when he knows that as mad as she is, she's still in love with Xander. quote:
Originally posted by spikeme:If you go by this theory, I will add another: In Older and Far Away, when Dawn is in her bedroom having a tantrum, the following cast members are present to console her:
Buffy, Xander, Willow, Tara, and Spike
No Anya
[/b]
I don't know if I would give that too much thought. For blocking purposes the room and angles would be too small for them all to be there. But on the same token, Spike did not say a word so why have him there? Which maybe could be another example of foreshadowing. We could drive ourselves insane with this. I for one don't know how a "reset" could work. I don't think the SG have "paid" for Buffy's return yet and I don't see how they could bring back two seperate dead characters in the same season and make it beleivable. I have been sick since reading the news of Tara's senseless killing and I think I have moved on to resignation. I have thought since the beginning of S5 when she wasn't in the main credits that they were going to kill her off somehow. That said I am hoping that ME pulls something out of a hat and dazzles me and makes me glad to be a fan, cause we need something after watching this season. If I wanted to watch all this darkness, death and angst I would watch CNN.
[This message has been edited by Ghostwriter (edited March 25, 2002).]
IP: Logged
posted March 25, 2002 23:26quote:
Originally posted by spikeme:If you go by this theory, I will add another: In Older and Far Away, when Dawn is in her bedroom having a tantrum, the following cast members are present to console her:
Buffy, Xander, Willow, Tara, and Spike
No Anya
[/b]
I don't know if I would give that too much thought. For blocking purposes the room and angles would be too small for them all to be there. But on the same token, Spike did not say a word so why have him there? Which maybe could be another example of foreshadowing. We could drive ourselves insane with this. I for one don't know how a "reset" could work. I don't think the SG have "paid" for Buffy's return yet and I don't see how they could bring back two seperate dead characters in the same season and make it beleivable. I have been sick since reading the news of Tara's senseless killing and I think I have moved on to resignation. I have thought since the beginning of S5 when she wasn't in the main credits that they were going to kill her off somehow. That said I am hoping that ME pulls something out of a hat and dazzles me and makes me glad to be a fan, cause we need something after watching this season. If I wanted to watch all this darkness, death and angst I would watch CNN.
[This message has been edited by Ghostwriter (edited March 25, 2002).]
quote:IP: LoggedNouvelleCool Monster Fighter quote:
Originally posted by kpmuse: In fact, I already canceled all my comic orders, Season 2 DVD orders, Buffy Magazine. My letters are written and ready to go.
I had planned to buy a DVD player with my IRS refund check specifically to buy the Buffy boxed sets. That's now on hold depending on the outcome of Tara. If she stays dead I'll quit watching BTVS and will NOT buy anything Buffy related. If Tara is alive and well by seasons end, hello DVDs.
The economy is also rooting for Tara.
IP: Logged
posted March 25, 2002 23:38quote:
Originally posted by kpmuse: In fact, I already canceled all my comic orders, Season 2 DVD orders, Buffy Magazine. My letters are written and ready to go.
I had planned to buy a DVD player with my IRS refund check specifically to buy the Buffy boxed sets. That's now on hold depending on the outcome of Tara. If she stays dead I'll quit watching BTVS and will NOT buy anything Buffy related. If Tara is alive and well by seasons end, hello DVDs.
The economy is also rooting for Tara.
quote:IP: LoggedLBJMBlessed Wannabe IP: Logged
posted March 26, 2002 01:04 I agree I'm not gonna buy the dvds if tara is dead.. I had been waiting for season two to come out.. Tara is the only that can save willow... its killing me not know when tara's gonna come back I've lost faith in marti I dont htink joss is paying any attention to the show.. marti is gonna have two upset mommies.. if their not they should be. Okay, so what did they actually do wrong? Messed with dangerous powers beyond their comprehension and feasably beyond their control. That's mostly on Willow's head. She was the ring leader and it was clearly her own hubris that made her so sure she could do it. And that's something she's been paying for, for most of the season now.
But I don't think you can discount what was motivating her. Because I think motivation actually counts a great deal. And she really did believe she was saving Buffy. Willow was clearly tormented by the thought that Buffy was being tortured in some hell dimension because of how she had died saving them. Now, that may not be completely rational, but given the history she's familiar with, it wasn't an illogical conclusion.
And who knows, maybe she did actually wind up 'saving' Buffy from an alternative reality, where she was nothing more than a crazy girl locked up in a psycho ward. The fact that Buffy herself perceived it as Heaven had more to do with the fact that she didn't have the burdens there that she had as the slayer. That's why it was so hard to let go of. For her, it must have been almost like becoming a child again, free of the responsiblities that had been weighing on her for so long.
That's what Normal Again suggested, wasn't it?
There's also the fact that what she did was essentially nothing more than ask a favor from Osiris. She didn't force him to grant her request. She followed the ritual, faced his test, no matter how painful it was for her, and then it was Osiris who allowed Buffy to brought back. If it was totally wrong, as it clearly will be with Tara, then she wouldn't have been able to do it in the first place.
Now, I do think there's still a gaping hole in the 'prices yet to be paid' column for the season. But that's not Willow's. It's Xander's for summoning the dancing demon. And he did it, why? So that he and Anya would work out and have a happy ending.
In terms of sheer wrongness, I'd rank summoning that demon a few notches above the resurrection spell. Both because he did it for a completely selfish reason, and because it had such serious consequences in actually getting people killed.
I so think the debt for that one is going to come due by the end of the season.
And logic says it'll cost him the very thing he was hoping for in the first place. 'Cause irony's kind of ironic that way.
They even made it a point to remind us of what he did in OAFA, and even that he knew how wrong it was.
Ari
IP: Logged
posted March 26, 2002 01:29 Here's another thought about the notion of how much they have or haven't 'paid' for Buffy's resurrection.Okay, so what did they actually do wrong? Messed with dangerous powers beyond their comprehension and feasably beyond their control. That's mostly on Willow's head. She was the ring leader and it was clearly her own hubris that made her so sure she could do it. And that's something she's been paying for, for most of the season now.
But I don't think you can discount what was motivating her. Because I think motivation actually counts a great deal. And she really did believe she was saving Buffy. Willow was clearly tormented by the thought that Buffy was being tortured in some hell dimension because of how she had died saving them. Now, that may not be completely rational, but given the history she's familiar with, it wasn't an illogical conclusion.
And who knows, maybe she did actually wind up 'saving' Buffy from an alternative reality, where she was nothing more than a crazy girl locked up in a psycho ward. The fact that Buffy herself perceived it as Heaven had more to do with the fact that she didn't have the burdens there that she had as the slayer. That's why it was so hard to let go of. For her, it must have been almost like becoming a child again, free of the responsiblities that had been weighing on her for so long.
That's what Normal Again suggested, wasn't it?
There's also the fact that what she did was essentially nothing more than ask a favor from Osiris. She didn't force him to grant her request. She followed the ritual, faced his test, no matter how painful it was for her, and then it was Osiris who allowed Buffy to brought back. If it was totally wrong, as it clearly will be with Tara, then she wouldn't have been able to do it in the first place.
Now, I do think there's still a gaping hole in the 'prices yet to be paid' column for the season. But that's not Willow's. It's Xander's for summoning the dancing demon. And he did it, why? So that he and Anya would work out and have a happy ending.
In terms of sheer wrongness, I'd rank summoning that demon a few notches above the resurrection spell. Both because he did it for a completely selfish reason, and because it had such serious consequences in actually getting people killed.
I so think the debt for that one is going to come due by the end of the season.
And logic says it'll cost him the very thing he was hoping for in the first place. 'Cause irony's kind of ironic that way.
They even made it a point to remind us of what he did in OAFA, and even that he knew how wrong it was.
Ari
I also agree that a reset is iminant. But I hate the idea of it. It's completely unoriginal. But if it helps the show get back to something resembling normality, then perhaps it should happen. There have been too many co-incidiences with the final episodes of the Season which indicate a rest is going to happen. The main one being Anya having a demonic powers given to her. Why wait this long? Surely, the writers could have incorporated them earlier? Why now? Why this late in the Season? I believe Anya's powers will have a greater purpose, namely, a reset.
IP: Logged
posted March 26, 2002 01:30 I completely agree with some of guys are saying; the darkness we've seen this Season is just too much, and the remaining episodes of the Season could be some of the darkest Buffy has done. I'm not going to give up on the show by any means, but what I will say is that I'm finding it increasingly hard to read the spoilers for the next episode in fear that something else will go horribly wrong.I also agree that a reset is iminant. But I hate the idea of it. It's completely unoriginal. But if it helps the show get back to something resembling normality, then perhaps it should happen. There have been too many co-incidiences with the final episodes of the Season which indicate a rest is going to happen. The main one being Anya having a demonic powers given to her. Why wait this long? Surely, the writers could have incorporated them earlier? Why now? Why this late in the Season? I believe Anya's powers will have a greater purpose, namely, a reset.
IP: LoggedVampNo1Doll's Eye Crystal IP: Logged
posted March 26, 2002 02:02 In regards to the resurrection spell I am wondering if the fact that one of the demons on the motorcycle breaking the urn of Osiris before the rightful completion of the spell has any adverse effects to what is happening this season. Here is Willow doing a very complicated spell where concentration is very important, and when she was being engulfed by that light surrounding her she gets interrupted and faints. So I am wondering due to the fact we don't know if the spell was completed correctly because the gang had to make a hasty exit, that the darkness that went into Willow is pivotal to what is happening with Willow herself, and maybe why Buffy seems to have come back wrong.IP: LoggedfontaineDoll's Eye Crystal I second that notion. All I can say is I have one word for them "cancellation" I mean let's think about this for a second, Tara dead, Willow evil, god knows where everyone else is. Who wants to watch that? Not me! I think I would rather have needles stuck in my eyes - less painful.
OK rant over
------------------
"It was inconclusive and I didn't stick around to find out. I might have magic'd my fist through a wall or something - Willow (Normal Again)
IP: Logged
posted March 26, 2002 02:06 [QUOTE]Originally posted by Web Warlock:I second that notion. All I can say is I have one word for them "cancellation" I mean let's think about this for a second, Tara dead, Willow evil, god knows where everyone else is. Who wants to watch that? Not me! I think I would rather have needles stuck in my eyes - less painful.
OK rant over
------------------
"It was inconclusive and I didn't stick around to find out. I might have magic'd my fist through a wall or something - Willow (Normal Again)
Here's the but in a strange way I ahve found Bob and Xita's location report quite comforting, why you may ask, because the Willow in the scene described is not our Will and in fact looks and sounds like another person altogether. I believe that "our" Willow "dies" the minute that bullet enters Tara body and kills her. Now without some sort of reset they just have a short lived character who will eventually burn herself out. I can't imagine for one secnd that they are going to get rid of Aly so again I say reset. Well that is my hope and I am clinging to it
IP: Logged
posted March 26, 2002 02:10 As I have said in a previous post I am reserving judgement until the end of the season but if there is just a dead Tara and an evil Willow then I don't see that there is anything left for me to watch.Here's the but in a strange way I ahve found Bob and Xita's location report quite comforting, why you may ask, because the Willow in the scene described is not our Will and in fact looks and sounds like another person altogether. I believe that "our" Willow "dies" the minute that bullet enters Tara body and kills her. Now without some sort of reset they just have a short lived character who will eventually burn herself out. I can't imagine for one secnd that they are going to get rid of Aly so again I say reset. Well that is my hope and I am clinging to it
IP: LoggedThe RoseSassy Eggs ------------------
Tara: My heart doesn't stutter.
Tara: Willow, I got so lost.
Willow: I found you. I will always find you.
Tara: Nobody messes with my girl!
Willow: Hi, um Tara. How are you? I was wondering maybe you want to go out sometime for coffee? food? kisses and gay love?
IP: Logged
posted March 26, 2002 02:23 Yeah, I am hanging in there too until they pronounce Tara dead, and if nothing happens to fix this, I will be through. Watching Buffy destroy herself in an abusive, violent travesty with Spike was almost enough to make me stop watching the show when it first happened. I just could not stand to see Buffy being disgusted with herself and putting up with Spike's manipulative BS for most of the season. Any other time she would have staked him on the spot. And if Spike is really going to attempt to rape Buffy, this is not something I want buffy to forget. There has got to be a way to fix this so everyone will remember what has happened. I am wondering how Tara will fit into the reset/reversal scenario. If she is truly dead, will she remember Willow's actions after finding her body? I am anxious to know what happens even if I may hate how we get there. Then I will make my final decision on whether or not I will keep watching the show.------------------
Tara: My heart doesn't stutter.
Tara: Willow, I got so lost.
Willow: I found you. I will always find you.
Tara: Nobody messes with my girl!
Willow: Hi, um Tara. How are you? I was wondering maybe you want to go out sometime for coffee? food? kisses and gay love?
by Scout » Mon Mar 25, 2002 7:32 pm
Being a Buffy fan has taught me to adjust to major angst because I know it’s there to make the show ‘real.’ But when the angst overloads to this degree, it makes the show as much a caricature of real life as neverending happiness does. You can make a show ‘real’ but you can also overcompensate and make it so dark that it becomes almost laughable. If I didn’t care so much about the characters, all this imploding would strike me as just too comical. Unfortunately, I care too much to think that now.
by theatremouse » Mon Mar 25, 2002 7:33 pm
quote:
Originally posted by BigMac:
I have always said you can find the clues in the episode now about the spoilers even AngelX has said the spoilers are not 100% confirm and this weekend AngelX change some of the spoilers.
speaking of which has anyone had any more news on the whole amusement park dealio in 19? and if no, shant we wonder what exactly is going down that cuases all that.... methinks there could be keys to dvelopment if we knew what was happening/why it was happening with THAT whole warren sitch.
------------------
It's horrible! That's me as a vampire. I'm so evil and... skanky. And I think I'm kinda gay.
by Wiccagrrl » Mon Mar 25, 2002 7:44 pm
by Morphine » Mon Mar 25, 2002 7:51 pm
quote:
Originally posted by Sela:
Morphine, anyone? I need some anesthesia to get me through the rest of this season.Pain I can deal with. Death, destruction, mayhem, psychotic behavior, evil to the nth degree, and unnecessary violence kinda goes beyond my threshold, thank you very much.
I can't say that I respect a show for killing off its beloved characters. If that's the show's MO, then how can you create a fan base? All you'll be doing is burning bridges. If that's attractive, what's the point of investing? It's not the storylines, let me tell ya--this season proves that. Granted, there've been some good shows and some good scenes in the not-so-good shows, but not nearly enough. And the characters? Well, if you kill 'em, why watch?
--Sela
I'll gladly offer a hug, possibly you'll get your dose...
But I do hear your point. It is possible (as was shown through the first 5 seasons) to bring a whole universe to life, to have that universe harmful and threatening and macabre, yet to balance it out with love, humor and sharp wits.
What happened? Most people say it begins with Marti and end with Noxon. I say it happened because of us. Our loyalty. Our tolerance. They've taken the loyal viewers for granted, and most of us are mighty pissed off right about now. Tara fans, Willow fans, Buffy fans, Dawn fans (if she has any left that is), Spike fans, Anya fans... everyone loses this season. Even the show itself... It's truly sad that such an epic cult has come to this. I'll go cradle in a corner and weep now...
Dammit, I grew up with these guys! Am I doomed to fall in love madly, get my innocent lover ripped from me in great injustice twice, go bonkers and vanish in a supernova destroying half the city?
------------------
Tara: No, see, 'cause your insect reflection represents your insignificance... in terms of the karmic cycle.
by sam7777 » Mon Mar 25, 2002 7:54 pm
quote:
Nah, it's not just you. As far as darkness goes, I really do like my entertainment extra black, with no creme or sugar, please. I've said before, I'm an emotional junkie, and as long as the writers of whatever show I'm watching at the time are feeding that need for extreme highs and lows, I'm good to go.
I like dark too but I prefer my dark in movies (I love horror flicks) where you only invest 2 hours in the characters. 22 hours of darkness is a little darker that I like my arts. Still it's nice to hear some folks are happy (a gloom has descended on all the boards).
I think that ME has painted themselves into a corner with the current plot. Too much is happening and folks will feel cheated if they don't wrap up the bulk of the threads. And frankly they just don't have enough time left to do that. I can see them leaving major plot hanging like Anya, Xander and Spike.
They left the key plot hanging by keeping Dawn around. They never really resolved the watcher plot (world is ending and they won't help the slayer?!). What are Willow and Tara's majors (thought that may be resolved in Tara's case)? It's getting like the X-Files where they never resolve anything.
ME may know better than me but I don't see how they can end the season without alienating a large portion of their audience.
quote:by Web Warlock » Mon Mar 25, 2002 8:05 pm
Does ME, Marti, Joss, etal. have a clue what is going on with the fans? The people who pay their salaries?
Cause I have to say the spoilers of late sound like the worst reactionary tirades. I expect better behavior out of my 2 year old.
"Oh, lets screw with the fans. Will give them what they think they want and instead give them what they need."
Kiss my ass.
This season will either end brilliant (I still *want* to give them the benefit of the doubt) or it is going to end in the worst cluster-fuck in televised history.
I don't have to watch pain on TV because some dipshit at ME thinks that's what I need.
If this is there idea of "growing up" then they are more screwed up than I thought.
I'll quote Tom Waites on this one.
quote:
I'm gonna put a hole in my T.V. set
I don't wanna grow up
Open up the medicine chest
I don't wanna grow upI don't wanna have to shout it out
I don't want my hair to fall out
I don't wanna be filled with doubt
I don't wanna be a good boy scout
I don't wanna have to learn to count
I don't wanna have the biggest amount
I don't wanna grow up
Gravitating back to "pissed off" and moving to "screw watching the finale" at high impluse.
I'll watch till Tara and Willow get back together and then let you all tell me the news. It will be interesting to watch the ratings.
Warlock.
------------------
Web Warlock
web.warlock@attbi.com webwarlock@planetadnd.com
Author, the Netbooks of Witches and Warlocks
The Other Side: http://www.xtreme-gaming.com/theotherside/
My Willow&Tara Pages: http://www.xtreme-gaming.com/theotherside/willtara.php
Shadow Earth Games: http://www.rpghost.com/WebWarlock/
--
I'm ahead of my time. But only by a week.
- Too Much Joy, "I Don't Know"
by Kendahl897 » Mon Mar 25, 2002 8:07 pm
by Scout » Mon Mar 25, 2002 8:13 pm
quote:
Originally posted by Kendahl897:
If I'm wrong, I wil personally come on this board, apologize and call Joss every name in the book. But I'm going to wait until I know............
And we'll accept your apology, as long as you don't go back and edit all your old posts.
quote:by Kamil » Mon Mar 25, 2002 8:18 pm
quote:I think that ME has painted themselves into a corner with the current plot. Too much is happening and folks will feel cheated if they don't wrap up the bulk of the threads. And frankly they just don't have enough time left to do that.
I've been thinking that 22 may be continued in 23; aka ep 1 season 7. leading into...
quote:
I can see them leaving major plot hanging like Anya, Xander and Spike.
quote:
ME may know better than me but I don't see how they can end the season without alienating a large portion of their audience.
From what Donna and Gillian have said over the years, producers and writers consider themselves lucky if 99.99% of the actual viewers, who really don't consider themselves fans at all, just ordinary folks who watch teevee, remember the names of all of the feature characters, never mind their SO's and their various plot threads. Most teevee viewers turn on the shows they like, watch, then turn them off again and don't think about that particular show again until the next new ep airs.
The net makes everything so much more personal for *us* -- but for the folks paying the dollars for the productions (which isn't ME) everything is a business and big drama brings in big numbers. For people who aren't as invested in characters as we are, watching one die becomes Something Memorable from that weeks viewing -- which leads to those same folks making sure to remember to watch next week to see if that nasty so and so gets his/her comuppance -- which in the minds of the bean counters is A Good Thing.
Dammit.
For y'all's sake. I really am sorry that this is going down this way -- if I had to pick a character to die so that I could suffer in the most blissful possible way, I'd pick Angel -- cause that'd hurt Buffy (and me), the most, and I could cry and mourn over that ep for weeks on end.
I'm a sad, sick puppy, aren't I? *wry grin*
edited 'cause ya know, the kitty really wants me to repeat myself today...
------------------
--
Kamil
Gunn: "I mean, who has time for love when you're out there doing it with the demons...and didn't that just come out sad and wrong."
"Heartthrob" Angel
[This message has been edited by Kamil (edited March 25, 2002).]
[This message has been edited by Kamil (edited March 26, 2002).]
IP: Logged
. I still say those in the basement at the of EP17 are alive by the end of EP22. So check the clues in EP'S12-17 and you will know about what is going to happen in EP'S18-22 for I beleave Tara is not the BSD and that's from the clues Ihave found so far.
If you go by this theory, I will add another: In Older and Far Away, when Dawn is in her bedroom having a tantrum, the following cast members are present to console her:
Buffy, Xander, Willow, Tara, and Spike
No Anya
IP: Logged
IP: Logged
quote:
Originally posted by spikeme:If you go by this theory, I will add another: In Older and Far Away, when Dawn is in her bedroom having a tantrum, the following cast members are present to console her:
Buffy, Xander, Willow, Tara, and Spike
No Anya
[/b]
I don't know if I would give that too much thought. For blocking purposes the room and angles would be too small for them all to be there. But on the same token, Spike did not say a word so why have him there? Which maybe could be another example of foreshadowing. We could drive ourselves insane with this. I for one don't know how a "reset" could work. I don't think the SG have "paid" for Buffy's return yet and I don't see how they could bring back two seperate dead characters in the same season and make it beleivable. I have been sick since reading the news of Tara's senseless killing and I think I have moved on to resignation. I have thought since the beginning of S5 when she wasn't in the main credits that they were going to kill her off somehow. That said I am hoping that ME pulls something out of a hat and dazzles me and makes me glad to be a fan, cause we need something after watching this season. If I wanted to watch all this darkness, death and angst I would watch CNN.
[This message has been edited by Ghostwriter (edited March 25, 2002).]
IP: Logged
quote:
Originally posted by kpmuse: In fact, I already canceled all my comic orders, Season 2 DVD orders, Buffy Magazine. My letters are written and ready to go.
I had planned to buy a DVD player with my IRS refund check specifically to buy the Buffy boxed sets. That's now on hold depending on the outcome of Tara. If she stays dead I'll quit watching BTVS and will NOT buy anything Buffy related. If Tara is alive and well by seasons end, hello DVDs.
The economy is also rooting for Tara.
IP: Logged
IP: Logged
Okay, so what did they actually do wrong? Messed with dangerous powers beyond their comprehension and feasably beyond their control. That's mostly on Willow's head. She was the ring leader and it was clearly her own hubris that made her so sure she could do it. And that's something she's been paying for, for most of the season now.
But I don't think you can discount what was motivating her. Because I think motivation actually counts a great deal. And she really did believe she was saving Buffy. Willow was clearly tormented by the thought that Buffy was being tortured in some hell dimension because of how she had died saving them. Now, that may not be completely rational, but given the history she's familiar with, it wasn't an illogical conclusion.
And who knows, maybe she did actually wind up 'saving' Buffy from an alternative reality, where she was nothing more than a crazy girl locked up in a psycho ward. The fact that Buffy herself perceived it as Heaven had more to do with the fact that she didn't have the burdens there that she had as the slayer. That's why it was so hard to let go of. For her, it must have been almost like becoming a child again, free of the responsiblities that had been weighing on her for so long.
That's what Normal Again suggested, wasn't it?
There's also the fact that what she did was essentially nothing more than ask a favor from Osiris. She didn't force him to grant her request. She followed the ritual, faced his test, no matter how painful it was for her, and then it was Osiris who allowed Buffy to brought back. If it was totally wrong, as it clearly will be with Tara, then she wouldn't have been able to do it in the first place.
Now, I do think there's still a gaping hole in the 'prices yet to be paid' column for the season. But that's not Willow's. It's Xander's for summoning the dancing demon. And he did it, why? So that he and Anya would work out and have a happy ending.
In terms of sheer wrongness, I'd rank summoning that demon a few notches above the resurrection spell. Both because he did it for a completely selfish reason, and because it had such serious consequences in actually getting people killed.
I so think the debt for that one is going to come due by the end of the season.
And logic says it'll cost him the very thing he was hoping for in the first place. 'Cause irony's kind of ironic that way.
They even made it a point to remind us of what he did in OAFA, and even that he knew how wrong it was.
Ari
IP: Logged
I also agree that a reset is iminant. But I hate the idea of it. It's completely unoriginal. But if it helps the show get back to something resembling normality, then perhaps it should happen. There have been too many co-incidiences with the final episodes of the Season which indicate a rest is going to happen. The main one being Anya having a demonic powers given to her. Why wait this long? Surely, the writers could have incorporated them earlier? Why now? Why this late in the Season? I believe Anya's powers will have a greater purpose, namely, a reset.
IP: Logged
IP: Logged
I second that notion. All I can say is I have one word for them "cancellation" I mean let's think about this for a second, Tara dead, Willow evil, god knows where everyone else is. Who wants to watch that? Not me! I think I would rather have needles stuck in my eyes - less painful.
OK rant over
------------------
"It was inconclusive and I didn't stick around to find out. I might have magic'd my fist through a wall or something - Willow (Normal Again)
IP: Logged
Here's the but in a strange way I ahve found Bob and Xita's location report quite comforting, why you may ask, because the Willow in the scene described is not our Will and in fact looks and sounds like another person altogether. I believe that "our" Willow "dies" the minute that bullet enters Tara body and kills her. Now without some sort of reset they just have a short lived character who will eventually burn herself out. I can't imagine for one secnd that they are going to get rid of Aly so again I say reset. Well that is my hope and I am clinging to it
IP: Logged
------------------
Tara: My heart doesn't stutter.
Tara: Willow, I got so lost.
Willow: I found you. I will always find you.
Tara: Nobody messes with my girl!
Willow: Hi, um Tara. How are you? I was wondering maybe you want to go out sometime for coffee? food? kisses and gay love?
IP: Logged
. I still say those in the basement at the of EP17 are alive by the end of EP22. So check the clues in EP'S12-17 and you will know about what is going to happen in EP'S18-22 for I beleave Tara is not the BSD and that's from the clues Ihave found so far.
If you go by this theory, I will add another: In Older and Far Away, when Dawn is in her bedroom having a tantrum, the following cast members are present to console her:
Buffy, Xander, Willow, Tara, and Spike
No Anya
IP: Logged
posted March 25, 2002 22:24 Regarding BigMac's comment:. I still say those in the basement at the of EP17 are alive by the end of EP22. So check the clues in EP'S12-17 and you will know about what is going to happen in EP'S18-22 for I beleave Tara is not the BSD and that's from the clues Ihave found so far.
If you go by this theory, I will add another: In Older and Far Away, when Dawn is in her bedroom having a tantrum, the following cast members are present to console her:
Buffy, Xander, Willow, Tara, and Spike
No Anya
IP: LoggedKendahl897Cool Monster Fighter IP: Logged
posted March 25, 2002 22:42 I won't go back and edit my posts. And I will apologize. But I also realize that something pretty major is going to have to happen by the end of episode 22 and not just for Tara's sake either. The foretelling by Sam of what happens to people who delve too deeply into the dark magic was put there for a reason. From what BBQ Guy has posted, by the time Willow is after Andrew and Jonathan, she has consumed enough dark magic to turn her hair and eyes black. I don't think there's any going back for her at this point. She is beyond reason and as Xita so accurately put it, on a suicide run. Then there's Spike, who I'm guessing comes back from Africa with his mission accomplished-he's dechipped. Also, let's not forget Anya, who has returned to being a vengance demon. Now I'm just guessin when I say that D'Hoffryn would not let her back into the fold without putting conditions on that, especially when he knows that as mad as she is, she's still in love with Xander. quote:
Originally posted by spikeme:If you go by this theory, I will add another: In Older and Far Away, when Dawn is in her bedroom having a tantrum, the following cast members are present to console her:
Buffy, Xander, Willow, Tara, and Spike
No Anya
I don't know if I would give that too much thought. For blocking purposes the room and angles would be too small for them all to be there. But on the same token, Spike did not say a word so why have him there? Which maybe could be another example of foreshadowing. We could drive ourselves insane with this. I for one don't know how a "reset" could work. I don't think the SG have "paid" for Buffy's return yet and I don't see how they could bring back two seperate dead characters in the same season and make it beleivable. I have been sick since reading the news of Tara's senseless killing and I think I have moved on to resignation. I have thought since the beginning of S5 when she wasn't in the main credits that they were going to kill her off somehow. That said I am hoping that ME pulls something out of a hat and dazzles me and makes me glad to be a fan, cause we need something after watching this season. If I wanted to watch all this darkness, death and angst I would watch CNN.
[This message has been edited by Ghostwriter (edited March 25, 2002).]
IP: Logged
posted March 25, 2002 23:26quote:
Originally posted by spikeme:If you go by this theory, I will add another: In Older and Far Away, when Dawn is in her bedroom having a tantrum, the following cast members are present to console her:
Buffy, Xander, Willow, Tara, and Spike
No Anya
[/b]
I don't know if I would give that too much thought. For blocking purposes the room and angles would be too small for them all to be there. But on the same token, Spike did not say a word so why have him there? Which maybe could be another example of foreshadowing. We could drive ourselves insane with this. I for one don't know how a "reset" could work. I don't think the SG have "paid" for Buffy's return yet and I don't see how they could bring back two seperate dead characters in the same season and make it beleivable. I have been sick since reading the news of Tara's senseless killing and I think I have moved on to resignation. I have thought since the beginning of S5 when she wasn't in the main credits that they were going to kill her off somehow. That said I am hoping that ME pulls something out of a hat and dazzles me and makes me glad to be a fan, cause we need something after watching this season. If I wanted to watch all this darkness, death and angst I would watch CNN.
[This message has been edited by Ghostwriter (edited March 25, 2002).]
quote:IP: LoggedNouvelleCool Monster Fighter quote:
Originally posted by kpmuse: In fact, I already canceled all my comic orders, Season 2 DVD orders, Buffy Magazine. My letters are written and ready to go.
I had planned to buy a DVD player with my IRS refund check specifically to buy the Buffy boxed sets. That's now on hold depending on the outcome of Tara. If she stays dead I'll quit watching BTVS and will NOT buy anything Buffy related. If Tara is alive and well by seasons end, hello DVDs.
The economy is also rooting for Tara.
IP: Logged
posted March 25, 2002 23:38quote:
Originally posted by kpmuse: In fact, I already canceled all my comic orders, Season 2 DVD orders, Buffy Magazine. My letters are written and ready to go.
I had planned to buy a DVD player with my IRS refund check specifically to buy the Buffy boxed sets. That's now on hold depending on the outcome of Tara. If she stays dead I'll quit watching BTVS and will NOT buy anything Buffy related. If Tara is alive and well by seasons end, hello DVDs.
The economy is also rooting for Tara.
quote:IP: LoggedLBJMBlessed Wannabe IP: Logged
posted March 26, 2002 01:04 I agree I'm not gonna buy the dvds if tara is dead.. I had been waiting for season two to come out.. Tara is the only that can save willow... its killing me not know when tara's gonna come back I've lost faith in marti I dont htink joss is paying any attention to the show.. marti is gonna have two upset mommies.. if their not they should be. Okay, so what did they actually do wrong? Messed with dangerous powers beyond their comprehension and feasably beyond their control. That's mostly on Willow's head. She was the ring leader and it was clearly her own hubris that made her so sure she could do it. And that's something she's been paying for, for most of the season now.
But I don't think you can discount what was motivating her. Because I think motivation actually counts a great deal. And she really did believe she was saving Buffy. Willow was clearly tormented by the thought that Buffy was being tortured in some hell dimension because of how she had died saving them. Now, that may not be completely rational, but given the history she's familiar with, it wasn't an illogical conclusion.
And who knows, maybe she did actually wind up 'saving' Buffy from an alternative reality, where she was nothing more than a crazy girl locked up in a psycho ward. The fact that Buffy herself perceived it as Heaven had more to do with the fact that she didn't have the burdens there that she had as the slayer. That's why it was so hard to let go of. For her, it must have been almost like becoming a child again, free of the responsiblities that had been weighing on her for so long.
That's what Normal Again suggested, wasn't it?
There's also the fact that what she did was essentially nothing more than ask a favor from Osiris. She didn't force him to grant her request. She followed the ritual, faced his test, no matter how painful it was for her, and then it was Osiris who allowed Buffy to brought back. If it was totally wrong, as it clearly will be with Tara, then she wouldn't have been able to do it in the first place.
Now, I do think there's still a gaping hole in the 'prices yet to be paid' column for the season. But that's not Willow's. It's Xander's for summoning the dancing demon. And he did it, why? So that he and Anya would work out and have a happy ending.
In terms of sheer wrongness, I'd rank summoning that demon a few notches above the resurrection spell. Both because he did it for a completely selfish reason, and because it had such serious consequences in actually getting people killed.
I so think the debt for that one is going to come due by the end of the season.
And logic says it'll cost him the very thing he was hoping for in the first place. 'Cause irony's kind of ironic that way.
They even made it a point to remind us of what he did in OAFA, and even that he knew how wrong it was.
Ari
IP: Logged
posted March 26, 2002 01:29 Here's another thought about the notion of how much they have or haven't 'paid' for Buffy's resurrection.Okay, so what did they actually do wrong? Messed with dangerous powers beyond their comprehension and feasably beyond their control. That's mostly on Willow's head. She was the ring leader and it was clearly her own hubris that made her so sure she could do it. And that's something she's been paying for, for most of the season now.
But I don't think you can discount what was motivating her. Because I think motivation actually counts a great deal. And she really did believe she was saving Buffy. Willow was clearly tormented by the thought that Buffy was being tortured in some hell dimension because of how she had died saving them. Now, that may not be completely rational, but given the history she's familiar with, it wasn't an illogical conclusion.
And who knows, maybe she did actually wind up 'saving' Buffy from an alternative reality, where she was nothing more than a crazy girl locked up in a psycho ward. The fact that Buffy herself perceived it as Heaven had more to do with the fact that she didn't have the burdens there that she had as the slayer. That's why it was so hard to let go of. For her, it must have been almost like becoming a child again, free of the responsiblities that had been weighing on her for so long.
That's what Normal Again suggested, wasn't it?
There's also the fact that what she did was essentially nothing more than ask a favor from Osiris. She didn't force him to grant her request. She followed the ritual, faced his test, no matter how painful it was for her, and then it was Osiris who allowed Buffy to brought back. If it was totally wrong, as it clearly will be with Tara, then she wouldn't have been able to do it in the first place.
Now, I do think there's still a gaping hole in the 'prices yet to be paid' column for the season. But that's not Willow's. It's Xander's for summoning the dancing demon. And he did it, why? So that he and Anya would work out and have a happy ending.
In terms of sheer wrongness, I'd rank summoning that demon a few notches above the resurrection spell. Both because he did it for a completely selfish reason, and because it had such serious consequences in actually getting people killed.
I so think the debt for that one is going to come due by the end of the season.
And logic says it'll cost him the very thing he was hoping for in the first place. 'Cause irony's kind of ironic that way.
They even made it a point to remind us of what he did in OAFA, and even that he knew how wrong it was.
Ari
I also agree that a reset is iminant. But I hate the idea of it. It's completely unoriginal. But if it helps the show get back to something resembling normality, then perhaps it should happen. There have been too many co-incidiences with the final episodes of the Season which indicate a rest is going to happen. The main one being Anya having a demonic powers given to her. Why wait this long? Surely, the writers could have incorporated them earlier? Why now? Why this late in the Season? I believe Anya's powers will have a greater purpose, namely, a reset.
IP: Logged
posted March 26, 2002 01:30 I completely agree with some of guys are saying; the darkness we've seen this Season is just too much, and the remaining episodes of the Season could be some of the darkest Buffy has done. I'm not going to give up on the show by any means, but what I will say is that I'm finding it increasingly hard to read the spoilers for the next episode in fear that something else will go horribly wrong.I also agree that a reset is iminant. But I hate the idea of it. It's completely unoriginal. But if it helps the show get back to something resembling normality, then perhaps it should happen. There have been too many co-incidiences with the final episodes of the Season which indicate a rest is going to happen. The main one being Anya having a demonic powers given to her. Why wait this long? Surely, the writers could have incorporated them earlier? Why now? Why this late in the Season? I believe Anya's powers will have a greater purpose, namely, a reset.
IP: LoggedVampNo1Doll's Eye Crystal IP: Logged
posted March 26, 2002 02:02 In regards to the resurrection spell I am wondering if the fact that one of the demons on the motorcycle breaking the urn of Osiris before the rightful completion of the spell has any adverse effects to what is happening this season. Here is Willow doing a very complicated spell where concentration is very important, and when she was being engulfed by that light surrounding her she gets interrupted and faints. So I am wondering due to the fact we don't know if the spell was completed correctly because the gang had to make a hasty exit, that the darkness that went into Willow is pivotal to what is happening with Willow herself, and maybe why Buffy seems to have come back wrong.IP: LoggedfontaineDoll's Eye Crystal I second that notion. All I can say is I have one word for them "cancellation" I mean let's think about this for a second, Tara dead, Willow evil, god knows where everyone else is. Who wants to watch that? Not me! I think I would rather have needles stuck in my eyes - less painful.
OK rant over
------------------
"It was inconclusive and I didn't stick around to find out. I might have magic'd my fist through a wall or something - Willow (Normal Again)
IP: Logged
posted March 26, 2002 02:06 [QUOTE]Originally posted by Web Warlock:I second that notion. All I can say is I have one word for them "cancellation" I mean let's think about this for a second, Tara dead, Willow evil, god knows where everyone else is. Who wants to watch that? Not me! I think I would rather have needles stuck in my eyes - less painful.
OK rant over
------------------
"It was inconclusive and I didn't stick around to find out. I might have magic'd my fist through a wall or something - Willow (Normal Again)
Here's the but in a strange way I ahve found Bob and Xita's location report quite comforting, why you may ask, because the Willow in the scene described is not our Will and in fact looks and sounds like another person altogether. I believe that "our" Willow "dies" the minute that bullet enters Tara body and kills her. Now without some sort of reset they just have a short lived character who will eventually burn herself out. I can't imagine for one secnd that they are going to get rid of Aly so again I say reset. Well that is my hope and I am clinging to it
IP: Logged
posted March 26, 2002 02:10 As I have said in a previous post I am reserving judgement until the end of the season but if there is just a dead Tara and an evil Willow then I don't see that there is anything left for me to watch.Here's the but in a strange way I ahve found Bob and Xita's location report quite comforting, why you may ask, because the Willow in the scene described is not our Will and in fact looks and sounds like another person altogether. I believe that "our" Willow "dies" the minute that bullet enters Tara body and kills her. Now without some sort of reset they just have a short lived character who will eventually burn herself out. I can't imagine for one secnd that they are going to get rid of Aly so again I say reset. Well that is my hope and I am clinging to it
IP: LoggedThe RoseSassy Eggs ------------------
Tara: My heart doesn't stutter.
Tara: Willow, I got so lost.
Willow: I found you. I will always find you.
Tara: Nobody messes with my girl!
Willow: Hi, um Tara. How are you? I was wondering maybe you want to go out sometime for coffee? food? kisses and gay love?
IP: Logged
posted March 26, 2002 02:23 Yeah, I am hanging in there too until they pronounce Tara dead, and if nothing happens to fix this, I will be through. Watching Buffy destroy herself in an abusive, violent travesty with Spike was almost enough to make me stop watching the show when it first happened. I just could not stand to see Buffy being disgusted with herself and putting up with Spike's manipulative BS for most of the season. Any other time she would have staked him on the spot. And if Spike is really going to attempt to rape Buffy, this is not something I want buffy to forget. There has got to be a way to fix this so everyone will remember what has happened. I am wondering how Tara will fit into the reset/reversal scenario. If she is truly dead, will she remember Willow's actions after finding her body? I am anxious to know what happens even if I may hate how we get there. Then I will make my final decision on whether or not I will keep watching the show.------------------
Tara: My heart doesn't stutter.
Tara: Willow, I got so lost.
Willow: I found you. I will always find you.
Tara: Nobody messes with my girl!
Willow: Hi, um Tara. How are you? I was wondering maybe you want to go out sometime for coffee? food? kisses and gay love?
by spikeme » Mon Mar 25, 2002 8:24 pm
. I still say those in the basement at the of EP17 are alive by the end of EP22. So check the clues in EP'S12-17 and you will know about what is going to happen in EP'S18-22 for I beleave Tara is not the BSD and that's from the clues Ihave found so far.
If you go by this theory, I will add another: In Older and Far Away, when Dawn is in her bedroom having a tantrum, the following cast members are present to console her:
Buffy, Xander, Willow, Tara, and Spike
No Anya
by Kendahl897 » Mon Mar 25, 2002 8:42 pm
by Ghostwriter » Mon Mar 25, 2002 9:26 pm
quote:
Originally posted by spikeme:If you go by this theory, I will add another: In Older and Far Away, when Dawn is in her bedroom having a tantrum, the following cast members are present to console her:
Buffy, Xander, Willow, Tara, and Spike
No Anya
[/b]
I don't know if I would give that too much thought. For blocking purposes the room and angles would be too small for them all to be there. But on the same token, Spike did not say a word so why have him there? Which maybe could be another example of foreshadowing. We could drive ourselves insane with this. I for one don't know how a "reset" could work. I don't think the SG have "paid" for Buffy's return yet and I don't see how they could bring back two seperate dead characters in the same season and make it beleivable. I have been sick since reading the news of Tara's senseless killing and I think I have moved on to resignation. I have thought since the beginning of S5 when she wasn't in the main credits that they were going to kill her off somehow. That said I am hoping that ME pulls something out of a hat and dazzles me and makes me glad to be a fan, cause we need something after watching this season. If I wanted to watch all this darkness, death and angst I would watch CNN.
[This message has been edited by Ghostwriter (edited March 25, 2002).]
quote:by Nouvelle » Mon Mar 25, 2002 9:38 pm
quote:
Originally posted by kpmuse: In fact, I already canceled all my comic orders, Season 2 DVD orders, Buffy Magazine. My letters are written and ready to go.
I had planned to buy a DVD player with my IRS refund check specifically to buy the Buffy boxed sets. That's now on hold depending on the outcome of Tara. If she stays dead I'll quit watching BTVS and will NOT buy anything Buffy related. If Tara is alive and well by seasons end, hello DVDs.
The economy is also rooting for Tara.
quote:by LBJM » Mon Mar 25, 2002 11:04 pm
by Ari » Mon Mar 25, 2002 11:29 pm
Okay, so what did they actually do wrong? Messed with dangerous powers beyond their comprehension and feasably beyond their control. That's mostly on Willow's head. She was the ring leader and it was clearly her own hubris that made her so sure she could do it. And that's something she's been paying for, for most of the season now.
But I don't think you can discount what was motivating her. Because I think motivation actually counts a great deal. And she really did believe she was saving Buffy. Willow was clearly tormented by the thought that Buffy was being tortured in some hell dimension because of how she had died saving them. Now, that may not be completely rational, but given the history she's familiar with, it wasn't an illogical conclusion.
And who knows, maybe she did actually wind up 'saving' Buffy from an alternative reality, where she was nothing more than a crazy girl locked up in a psycho ward. The fact that Buffy herself perceived it as Heaven had more to do with the fact that she didn't have the burdens there that she had as the slayer. That's why it was so hard to let go of. For her, it must have been almost like becoming a child again, free of the responsiblities that had been weighing on her for so long.
That's what Normal Again suggested, wasn't it?
There's also the fact that what she did was essentially nothing more than ask a favor from Osiris. She didn't force him to grant her request. She followed the ritual, faced his test, no matter how painful it was for her, and then it was Osiris who allowed Buffy to brought back. If it was totally wrong, as it clearly will be with Tara, then she wouldn't have been able to do it in the first place.
Now, I do think there's still a gaping hole in the 'prices yet to be paid' column for the season. But that's not Willow's. It's Xander's for summoning the dancing demon. And he did it, why? So that he and Anya would work out and have a happy ending.
In terms of sheer wrongness, I'd rank summoning that demon a few notches above the resurrection spell. Both because he did it for a completely selfish reason, and because it had such serious consequences in actually getting people killed.
I so think the debt for that one is going to come due by the end of the season.
And logic says it'll cost him the very thing he was hoping for in the first place. 'Cause irony's kind of ironic that way.
They even made it a point to remind us of what he did in OAFA, and even that he knew how wrong it was.
Ari
by morgan1707 » Mon Mar 25, 2002 11:30 pm
I also agree that a reset is iminant. But I hate the idea of it. It's completely unoriginal. But if it helps the show get back to something resembling normality, then perhaps it should happen. There have been too many co-incidiences with the final episodes of the Season which indicate a rest is going to happen. The main one being Anya having a demonic powers given to her. Why wait this long? Surely, the writers could have incorporated them earlier? Why now? Why this late in the Season? I believe Anya's powers will have a greater purpose, namely, a reset.
by VampNo1 » Tue Mar 26, 2002 12:02 am
by fontaine » Tue Mar 26, 2002 12:06 am
I second that notion. All I can say is I have one word for them "cancellation" I mean let's think about this for a second, Tara dead, Willow evil, god knows where everyone else is. Who wants to watch that? Not me! I think I would rather have needles stuck in my eyes - less painful.
OK rant over
------------------
"It was inconclusive and I didn't stick around to find out. I might have magic'd my fist through a wall or something - Willow (Normal Again)
by magrat » Tue Mar 26, 2002 12:10 am
Here's the but in a strange way I ahve found Bob and Xita's location report quite comforting, why you may ask, because the Willow in the scene described is not our Will and in fact looks and sounds like another person altogether. I believe that "our" Willow "dies" the minute that bullet enters Tara body and kills her. Now without some sort of reset they just have a short lived character who will eventually burn herself out. I can't imagine for one secnd that they are going to get rid of Aly so again I say reset. Well that is my hope and I am clinging to it
by The Rose » Tue Mar 26, 2002 12:23 am
------------------
Tara: My heart doesn't stutter.
Tara: Willow, I got so lost.
Willow: I found you. I will always find you.
Tara: Nobody messes with my girl!
Willow: Hi, um Tara. How are you? I was wondering maybe you want to go out sometime for coffee? food? kisses and gay love?
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