posted 03-08-2001 21:37 EST (US) Last year at this time, when I was comparing Willow and Tara to the first serious black TV characters in the 60s, one thing that occurred to me was that the gay characters of today have one definite disadvantage - Bill Cosby and Nichelle Nichols never had to announce that they were black. It was obvious to everyone.
In TV, it's usually a safe assumption that in order to get a message across to an audience, you have to tell them that you're going to tell them, then you have to tell them, then you have to tell them that you told them. I therefore think it likely that Joss will continue to put in W/T couple-y moments to remind the viewers of just exactly how these two women feel about each other. I think they're most likely to be of the more subtle variety, though.
------------------ Come visit Now Leaving Sunnydale - A Showcase for Buffy Fans and their Non-Buffy creations
posted 03-10-2001 12:54 EST (US) For the record, there have always been direct verbal declarations establiching the relationships of the various couples. Buffy spoke about Riley being her boyfriend a lot to various folks, and conversely, Riley often spoke about Buffy. And of course, we got a ton of variations on "Xander is my boyfriend and we like to have sex a lot." statements from Anya. I'm not sure declarations from Willow along the lines of "Tara is my girlfriend, or "we're gay-type lovers" is much different.
And I agree that Joss is in a no win situation. When he had them make few or any overt declarations, quite a few W/T fans and folks interested in queer representation in the media criticised him for being timid, for making W/T invisible. And many folks simply did not get it, as recently as three weeks ago, I read posts where folks expressed some sort of surpise that W/T were together.
Yet, if Joss, laboring (as was just re-confirmed by Joss himself) under censorship from the WB, decides to just drive the point home by reminding even the slowest, thickest viewers that W/T are together, then he's being obvious and anvilly. We're blaming the wrong parties here.
If the WB let Joss treat W/T like all the other couples in the first place, then the Buffy writing staff wouldn't have had to go through such contortions to convey that they're together. And if our society wasn't so hateful and hidebound and foolish, then it wouldn't have required repeating it over and over and over, by means of increasingly large verbal hammers, for viwers to Get It.
posted 03-10-2001 13:08 EST (US) Len, there were still people being surprised three weeks ago? What part of "We're in love... we're lovers... we're lesbian gay-type lovers" did they not understand???
Another thing that should be pointed out (and I think I have before, maybe even in this same thread... ) is that Willow is always being very loud about who she is. This season we've had "Hello, gay now!" but we've also had "tiny Jewish Santa" and "big honkin' Menorah." Willow's declarations have been entirely in character.
Maybe if people weren't so busy trying to replace Willow's personality with their own, they'd get more of a clue...
posted 03-10-2001 14:41 EST (US) BBOG: Your last sentence says it all. So many viewers obviously see themselves as Willow, project their personality traits upon the character, or/and see her as The Every(wo)man character, that they take this so *personally*.
Due to my need to re-watch the minute that starts with "I had too much nog", I've heard that line about 50 times by now. Heh.
posted 03-10-2001 15:35 EST (US) Actually, with reference to what BBOG wrote above, although Willow has never hesitated to identify herself as Jewish, we have yet to see her actually DO anything Jewish. I think it might be nice to see her light a menorah, or invite the gang over for a seder. --------------------------------------------- Willow: My egg is Jewish. Xander: Then you can teach it that dreidel song. (from "Bad Eggs")
I actually got the impression that willows dad, Ira Rosenberg, was very much a practicing Jew. There was a eppie where angel had turned bad and buffy was nailing crosses to willows bedroom wall. the discussion centered on how wills parents would react to the Christian icons in a Jewish home. Willows comments seemed to me to imply her dad wouldn't be pleased his only daughter was taking up the cross .
tommo
posted 03-11-2001 09:33 EST (US) I remember that tvsurfer. Makes you wonder if Willow is Jewish through and through. She does tend to make references to it. Unlike the others - we never know if they have any religious identity at all.
I wonder what religion Tara is? If any.
------------------ "I'm going to be a mummy."
"Yes, yes you are."
xita
posted 03-11-2001 13:19 EST (US) This reminds me of that old USEnet thread, Willow and Torah.
wiccie
posted 03-11-2001 15:08 EST (US) LOL, Xita! What I'd give to read that thread;~)
Hmmm...I get he impression Tara's family are Fundies; maybe an extreme faction of Baptitst or Methodist. Jehovah's Witnesses would be fun, too;~)
No offense to Christians on the board, JMHO.
I think Willow's folks are like my dad's family; sometimes go to temple, always do the holidays, batmitzvah's etc., proud of their Jewish identity but not overly dogmatic.
I'm wondering if there will ever be a "Willow coming out to her family" reference (or episode). I think Joss has made it clear the Scoobies are the only family that matters.
Willow's folks never paid much attention to her before, do you all think her being a Wesbian would get their attention?
tommo
posted 03-11-2001 16:38 EST (US)
quote: Originally posted by xita: This reminds me of that old USEnet thread, Willow and Torah.
Oh now, *that* is hilarious. I'm sorry and don't mean to cause offence....but it really is.
Hey Wiccie (yes, I know I'm kind of stalking you) did you realise you wrote Wesbian? Heh heh...I like it.
Willow the Wesbian.
------------------ "I'm going to be a mummy."
"Yes, yes you are."
Catwoman
posted 03-11-2001 16:49 EST (US) lesbian witch = Wesbian or should that be Wisbian or maybe Litch...
Dr.G
posted 03-11-2001 17:18 EST (US) Okay I saw the Body three days ago, and like Ruth I want the whole world to know. I also want everyone to know who I have to thank for this. I *want* to do this before I reply to this thread:
Thank you April for sending me the Body and those books. And thank you Xita for sending me the other season five episodes. It is so much better to watch these episodes than to read about them and see the pics. They are so much better even than I had imagined. You have both given me so much, and I don't just mean the stuff you've sent me. Thank you again.
I could say a million things here, but most of it has been said already. Just a quicky comment on this:
quote: originally posted by Xita
Hmm, I think we get a clue to Tara's mom in this episode. Notice in Xander's rant, there's a close up on Tara and she has a weird expression on her face.
I noticed that as well. I have a feeling we *will* learn more about Tara's mother in the future. And that there may have been some evil doctor involved. When Buffy first learned about Joyce's illness, she wanted Willow and Tara to do a healing spell. Tara was very adamant, that doing that would be too dangerous.
TARA: "Yeah. I've heard stories about people trying healing spells... If we did something - it could make things a lot worse, Buffy."
It sounded like she was speaking from experience, but her looks did not confirm that. Had she been thinking of her mother there, she might have looked a little more uncomfortable. But the look she gives Xander now does suggest something.
Wait and see I guess, time will tell.
[This message has been edited by Dr.G (edited March 11, 2001).]
april
posted 03-11-2001 17:32 EST (US) mister garfield sir, you are certainly welcome. it was a crime that you couldn't watch "the body" at the same time that the US folks could... just knowing that there was a w/t kiss out there that you couldn't see must have been *torture*.
my best friend has been watching btvs since the first episode, and willow has always been her favorite character, largely because she's so vocally jewish. (this friend is straight, mind you, and willow's getting together with tara did *nothing* to diminish her willow adoration. i love her so.)
anyway, she feels *so* validated every time willow refers to her judaism in some way. any willow jewish talk is instantly the highlight of an episode for her. it makes me happy that willow can be such an affirming character for so many people. truth be told, i love tara, but willow is hands down my favorite.
wiccie
posted 03-11-2001 21:39 EST (US) Yes, I know sometimes my typing sucks, but I did indeed mean "Wesbian".
My non-Wiccan friends tease me (with great affection) by calling me wesbian.
I like Litch and Wisbian too, tho...*G*
BBOvenGuy
posted 03-11-2001 22:03 EST (US) There are times when I feel like showing a TV character practicing any honest-to-goodness religious faith is even more taboo than showing an honest-to-goodness same-sex relationship, especially in SF/Fantasy shows. That could be interfering with Willow's Jewishness a bit.
At least Susan Ivanova actually did light a Menorah once. And she did that vigil-keeping thing when her father died, with her rabbi right there with her.
Come to think of it, Babylon 5 had a remarkable amount of religion in it, especially when you consider that JMS is an avowed atheist.
------------------ Come visit Now Leaving Sunnydale - A Showcase for Buffy Fans and their Non-Buffy creations
xita
posted 03-11-2001 22:12 EST (US) Salon Article about The Body
newmoon07*
posted 03-12-2001 09:04 EST (US) *transplanted by WillTara aka "april the sneaky moderator"
That's great! I have to say that this episode was definitely one of the best of buffy. The acting was INCREDIBLE. Aly can just make me cry watching her, and I am hard one to get all teary eyed. Besides all this, I must say that the way Joss had the footage shot was amazing. The camera shots, the silence, the rapid movements of the screen at times--it was great. It had a lot of qualities that I thought Restless did.
tommo
posted 03-12-2001 10:29 EST (US) I think we all benefited from watching 'The Body'. To be honest, it put a few things in perspective for me.
I liked the way it underlined Buffy's own mortality. She could protect Joyce from all things demonic but not from something so inherently human. The echo this caused in Anya was positively heartbreaking.
And yes, I agree with garfield. I too have much to thank the kitties for. People who listen and respond, I salute you all.
------------------ "I'm going to be a mummy."
"Yes, yes you are."
tvsurfer
posted 03-12-2001 11:11 EST (US) LA Times piece on the body I'm wondering if this isn't more a commentary on tv in general and the vehicles they use for story hooks http://www.latimes.com/print/calendar/2 ... 19684.html
BlackLab
posted 03-12-2001 15:57 EST (US) Funny how Salon writers usually love Buffy & denigrate Buffy-based posting boards.
Also, The Body is in the new TV Guide's Cheers & Jeers section - Cheer, of course.
CaptMurdock
posted 03-12-2001 17:06 EST (US) (Thought I would post this question here as opposed to starting a new thread):
Do you guys think that the Christmas sequence in "The Body" was Buffy's memory of an actual event, or just a quick "fantasy" sequence like Joyce's miraculous recovery or the "My head..." bit?
The reason I ask is that it's a bit hard to fit in within the fifth season chronicle. Given that there is no Riley at the Christmas dinner, it would seem to have taken place after "In The Woods." However, "Triangle," the next episode, seems to establish that Joyce is only just starting to wear clothes (as opposed to the blue bathrobe), kinda indicating to me that she would not have recovered sufficiently to be doing Christmas dinner for eight (counting herself). Unfortunately, "Triangle" takes place after the new semester starts at UC Sunnydale, which would seem to be some time after the holidays.
Maybe I'm being too anal here (hell, I've already edited this message twice! ), and please don't think that I did not enjoy the Christmas sequence (or the episode in general) 'cause I did. I'm just a continuity geek. Hey, maybe Joyce was putting on a brave face for the holidays, and she had a lot of help from her dutiful daughters. I'm easy.
[This message has been edited by CaptMurdock (edited March 12, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by CaptMurdock (edited March 12, 2001).]
Beautiful Tara's Girl
posted 03-12-2001 17:45 EST (US)
quote: Originally posted by CaptMurdock: (Thought I would post this question here as opposed to starting a new thread):
Do you guys think that the Christmas sequence in "The Body" was Buffy's memory of an actual event, or just a quick "fantasy" sequence like Joyce's miraculous recovery or the "My head..." bit?
I think it was an actual memory...though I'm at a loss to explain the continuity. Cruel, cruel...you're giving me a headache. I bet it was Dawn's energy that did it...
Dr.G
posted 03-12-2001 23:50 EST (US) Well now, I won't go into the continuity question, but the reason I *know* it was a real memory is because I doubt Buffy would fantasize about Tara giving Willow tummy rubs.
I know we may do, but well, that's a given.
Seriously, Buffy would *not* have made *that* up when her mother has just died.
------------------
Garfield, Tarasexual from Amberdam
[This message has been edited by Dr.G (edited March 13, 2001).]
xita
posted 03-13-2001 12:00 EST (US) I agree with Dr.G. Besides, Joss answered this question in that TV Guide Article. He wanted a scene that showed how much the scoobs cared for Joyce. Continuity can be real tricky. I know last year Zelda and I tried to come up with a chronology for W/T and it just did not make sense. The time didn't coincide. At times two different calendar times(months apart) would seem to happen at the same time. So, intent wise, this scene is obviously a flashback.
xita
posted 03-14-2001 12:08 EST (US) Cheers from TV Guide : Cheers
CHEERS to going out with style. Despite the high body count on WB's Buffy the Vampire Slayer, the show has never confronted death as starkly or with such shattering impact as in the February 27 episode, "The Body." Written and directed by series creator Joss Whedon, "The Body" dealt with a truly nightmarish situation, the sudden death of Buffy's beloved mother, Joyce (series regular Kristine Sutherland). Making the episode all the more wrenching was the absence (more or less) of the show's usual supernatural trappings: Joyce didn't succumb to a vampire's bite or werewolf's claws — she simply died of natural causes. After five seasons of life-and-death (and life-after-death) matters, Buffy (Sarah Michelle Gellar) and her young friends faced real mortality in no uncertain terms. As for us, we'll miss actress Sutherland, always a sunny spot in an often dark series. And while we're on the subject of series castaways, February 27 was a tough night all over: ABC's NYPD Blue killed off slimeball ex-cop Harry Denby, the recurring character so rivetingly played by actor Scott Cohen. Nothing sunny about Denby (or his demise in a hail of bullets), but Cohen's a real loss to Blue.
xita
posted 03-15-2001 19:30 EST (US) I was watching my w/t tape and I noticed that the last outfit Tara wears in "I was Made to Love You" is the same one she wears in the body. Her hair is different but her outfit is the same, which of course makes sense as it is the same day. I guess she decided to put her hair down and I am very glad cause the hair there was not doing it for me (IWMTLY)
------------------ Tara: Tripled? Like first money, then money money money?
tvsurfer
posted 03-15-2001 21:12 EST (US) gotta love the continuity !
I thought buffy had a necklace on when she was talking to xander in IWMTLY but she doesn't seem to be wearing one when she arrives home ?
Dr.G
posted 03-15-2001 21:12 EST (US) Well that was a very nice little review there. Well put.
Leave it to you to notice these things, I agree about the hair, down is the way to go, heh heh. Anyway, nice continuity in this case. However, when Buffy is talking to Xander (when he is fixing that window) it is dark outside. Yet when she gets home it is bright and sunny. She did *not* stay out all night.
Ah well, it is Sunnydale after all, last stop to the hellmouth, a little solar eclipse here and there probably won't even make people blink.
[This message has been edited by Dr.G (edited March 15, 2001).]
april
posted 03-16-2001 19:57 EST (US) alas, a fine thread has finally died.
i'll close it and start "the body" thread number three...
posted 03-11-2001 09:33 EST (US) I remember that tvsurfer. Makes you wonder if Willow is Jewish through and through. She does tend to make references to it. Unlike the others - we never know if they have any religious identity at all.
posted 03-11-2001 12:08 EST (US) BBOvenGuy and BlackLab: you guys are very much on the money. Willow has arguably been the show's most popular character since its outset precisely because so many people identify with her. And one of the reasons there was such a backlash against her discovering her lesbianism was that it forced these people to confront homosexuality head on within themselves...suddenly they were unable to differentiate the gay person as Other, and it scared the hell out of them. If Willow, someone that they already loved, someone who was like them, was gay, then how could they continue to hate gay people? Some of them found a way, of course. Never underestimate the human capacity for denial.
Hermiola: I agree with you, but I get the feeling that the Rosenbergs are very much non-practicing Jews. I would like to see something other than lip service paid to Will's Jewishness, though. The only fanfic that I ever started (and never finished) had Willow remembering her bat mitzvah and going to Hebrew school with Jonathan.
------------------ "Sometimes I go online, but...everyone's spelling is really bad. It's depressing."
posted 03-11-2001 15:08 EST (US) LOL, Xita! What I'd give to read that thread;~)
Hmmm...I get he impression Tara's family are Fundies; maybe an extreme faction of Baptitst or Methodist. Jehovah's Witnesses would be fun, too;~)
No offense to Christians on the board, JMHO.
I think Willow's folks are like my dad's family; sometimes go to temple, always do the holidays, batmitzvah's etc., proud of their Jewish identity but not overly dogmatic.
I'm wondering if there will ever be a "Willow coming out to her family" reference (or episode). I think Joss has made it clear the Scoobies are the only family that matters.
Willow's folks never paid much attention to her before, do you all think her being a Wesbian would get their attention?
posted 03-11-2001 17:18 EST (US) Okay I saw the Body three days ago, and like Ruth I want the whole world to know. I also want everyone to know who I have to thank for this. I *want* to do this before I reply to this thread:
Thank you April for sending me the Body and those books. And thank you Xita for sending me the other season five episodes. It is so much better to watch these episodes than to read about them and see the pics. They are so much better even than I had imagined. You have both given me so much, and I don't just mean the stuff you've sent me. Thank you again.
I could say a million things here, but most of it has been said already. Just a quicky comment on this:
quote: originally posted by Xita
Hmm, I think we get a clue to Tara's mom in this episode. Notice in Xander's rant, there's a close up on Tara and she has a weird expression on her face.
I noticed that as well. I have a feeling we *will* learn more about Tara's mother in the future. And that there may have been some evil doctor involved. When Buffy first learned about Joyce's illness, she wanted Willow and Tara to do a healing spell. Tara was very adamant, that doing that would be too dangerous.
TARA: "Yeah. I've heard stories about people trying healing spells... If we did something - it could make things a lot worse, Buffy."
It sounded like she was speaking from experience, but her looks did not confirm that. Had she been thinking of her mother there, she might have looked a little more uncomfortable. But the look she gives Xander now does suggest something.
Wait and see I guess, time will tell.
[This message has been edited by Dr.G (edited March 11, 2001).]
posted 03-11-2001 17:32 EST (US) mister garfield sir, you are certainly welcome. it was a crime that you couldn't watch "the body" at the same time that the US folks could... just knowing that there was a w/t kiss out there that you couldn't see must have been *torture*.
my best friend has been watching btvs since the first episode, and willow has always been her favorite character, largely because she's so vocally jewish. (this friend is straight, mind you, and willow's getting together with tara did *nothing* to diminish her willow adoration. i love her so.)
anyway, she feels *so* validated every time willow refers to her judaism in some way. any willow jewish talk is instantly the highlight of an episode for her. it makes me happy that willow can be such an affirming character for so many people. truth be told, i love tara, but willow is hands down my favorite.
posted 03-11-2001 22:03 EST (US) There are times when I feel like showing a TV character practicing any honest-to-goodness religious faith is even more taboo than showing an honest-to-goodness same-sex relationship, especially in SF/Fantasy shows. That could be interfering with Willow's Jewishness a bit.
At least Susan Ivanova actually did light a Menorah once. And she did that vigil-keeping thing when her father died, with her rabbi right there with her.
Come to think of it, Babylon 5 had a remarkable amount of religion in it, especially when you consider that JMS is an avowed atheist.
------------------ Come visit Now Leaving Sunnydale - A Showcase for Buffy Fans and their Non-Buffy creations
posted 03-12-2001 09:04 EST (US) *transplanted by WillTara aka "april the sneaky moderator"
That's great! I have to say that this episode was definitely one of the best of buffy. The acting was INCREDIBLE. Aly can just make me cry watching her, and I am hard one to get all teary eyed. Besides all this, I must say that the way Joss had the footage shot was amazing. The camera shots, the silence, the rapid movements of the screen at times--it was great. It had a lot of qualities that I thought Restless did.
posted 03-12-2001 10:29 EST (US) I think we all benefited from watching 'The Body'. To be honest, it put a few things in perspective for me.
I liked the way it underlined Buffy's own mortality. She could protect Joyce from all things demonic but not from something so inherently human. The echo this caused in Anya was positively heartbreaking.
And yes, I agree with garfield. I too have much to thank the kitties for. People who listen and respond, I salute you all.
posted 03-12-2001 11:11 EST (US) LA Times piece on the body I'm wondering if this isn't more a commentary on tv in general and the vehicles they use for story hooks http://www.latimes.com/print/calendar/2 ... 19684.html
posted 03-12-2001 17:06 EST (US) (Thought I would post this question here as opposed to starting a new thread):
Do you guys think that the Christmas sequence in "The Body" was Buffy's memory of an actual event, or just a quick "fantasy" sequence like Joyce's miraculous recovery or the "My head..." bit?
The reason I ask is that it's a bit hard to fit in within the fifth season chronicle. Given that there is no Riley at the Christmas dinner, it would seem to have taken place after "In The Woods." However, "Triangle," the next episode, seems to establish that Joyce is only just starting to wear clothes (as opposed to the blue bathrobe), kinda indicating to me that she would not have recovered sufficiently to be doing Christmas dinner for eight (counting herself). Unfortunately, "Triangle" takes place after the new semester starts at UC Sunnydale, which would seem to be some time after the holidays.
Maybe I'm being too anal here (hell, I've already edited this message twice! ), and please don't think that I did not enjoy the Christmas sequence (or the episode in general) 'cause I did. I'm just a continuity geek. Hey, maybe Joyce was putting on a brave face for the holidays, and she had a lot of help from her dutiful daughters. I'm easy.
[This message has been edited by CaptMurdock (edited March 12, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by CaptMurdock (edited March 12, 2001).]
by Beautiful Tara's Girl » Mon Mar 12, 2001 3:45 pm
posted 03-12-2001 17:45 EST (US)
quote: Originally posted by CaptMurdock: (Thought I would post this question here as opposed to starting a new thread):
Do you guys think that the Christmas sequence in "The Body" was Buffy's memory of an actual event, or just a quick "fantasy" sequence like Joyce's miraculous recovery or the "My head..." bit?
I think it was an actual memory...though I'm at a loss to explain the continuity. Cruel, cruel...you're giving me a headache. I bet it was Dawn's energy that did it...
posted 03-12-2001 23:50 EST (US) Well now, I won't go into the continuity question, but the reason I *know* it was a real memory is because I doubt Buffy would fantasize about Tara giving Willow tummy rubs.
I know we may do, but well, that's a given.
Seriously, Buffy would *not* have made *that* up when her mother has just died.
------------------
Garfield, Tarasexual from Amberdam
[This message has been edited by Dr.G (edited March 13, 2001).]
posted 03-13-2001 12:00 EST (US) I agree with Dr.G. Besides, Joss answered this question in that TV Guide Article. He wanted a scene that showed how much the scoobs cared for Joyce. Continuity can be real tricky. I know last year Zelda and I tried to come up with a chronology for W/T and it just did not make sense. The time didn't coincide. At times two different calendar times(months apart) would seem to happen at the same time. So, intent wise, this scene is obviously a flashback.
posted 03-14-2001 12:08 EST (US) Cheers from TV Guide : Cheers
CHEERS to going out with style. Despite the high body count on WB's Buffy the Vampire Slayer, the show has never confronted death as starkly or with such shattering impact as in the February 27 episode, "The Body." Written and directed by series creator Joss Whedon, "The Body" dealt with a truly nightmarish situation, the sudden death of Buffy's beloved mother, Joyce (series regular Kristine Sutherland). Making the episode all the more wrenching was the absence (more or less) of the show's usual supernatural trappings: Joyce didn't succumb to a vampire's bite or werewolf's claws — she simply died of natural causes. After five seasons of life-and-death (and life-after-death) matters, Buffy (Sarah Michelle Gellar) and her young friends faced real mortality in no uncertain terms. As for us, we'll miss actress Sutherland, always a sunny spot in an often dark series. And while we're on the subject of series castaways, February 27 was a tough night all over: ABC's NYPD Blue killed off slimeball ex-cop Harry Denby, the recurring character so rivetingly played by actor Scott Cohen. Nothing sunny about Denby (or his demise in a hail of bullets), but Cohen's a real loss to Blue.
posted 03-15-2001 19:30 EST (US) I was watching my w/t tape and I noticed that the last outfit Tara wears in "I was Made to Love You" is the same one she wears in the body. Her hair is different but her outfit is the same, which of course makes sense as it is the same day. I guess she decided to put her hair down and I am very glad cause the hair there was not doing it for me (IWMTLY)
------------------ Tara: Tripled? Like first money, then money money money?
