posted 02-21-2001 22:41 EST (US) Calliope, I am sorry but I don't think BTVS will ever do what you suggest. It would destroy everything that they have done. They have made her transition angst free and while not pleasing to some it has been refreshing. Willow is comfortable with her sexuality. Really that look meant nothing. Oz/Tara/Willow thing will not be repeated. BTVS is not one to do things 2 times. Willow chose Tara, end of story. I do believe we will see angst but not in terms of sexuality. Of course they would show Willow when Oz' name was mentioned. That's her ex. Her look did not show anything to me. About what she says, Willow was talking about Warren and you fail to mention that Tara also talked about this. Really the point of this conversation was for Buffy to realize her desperation. Notice the look on Buffy's face at the end. She's lonely and she's the one who in the ep was willing to compromise in order not to be alone.
To believe that Willow feels this way is against everything I believe about this relationship and everything Joss has shown me. It's love , it has always been about true love and not about company because Willow was lonely. Really, I want conflict Joss as well but I don't believe he would chose this. It would go against what he has said and the integrity of the relationship.
Edited to add, where was Tara insecure about comparing to prettier girls? I think I missed that scene. Also, I think Tara spicing up her speech comes more from a desire to fit in with the scoobies, not with Willow.
[This message has been edited by xita (edited February 21, 2001).]
posted 02-21-2001 22:42 EST (US) Um, when it comes to conflict, I think that we are more likely to see the source of tension between Willow and Tara having something to do with magicks more than anything else. I think someone already mentioned, buffyverse rarely does a storyline twice and we've already had Willow questioning between Oz/Tara in NMR. Although I thought the smile was a sad rememberance on Willow's part, I didn't see it as anything to do with her current relationship, or any questioning of it! Em, I say watch out for magicks conflict more than anything else.
posted 02-21-2001 22:48 EST (US) Calliope, you asked to be talked down, apparently we did not succeed. Let me try again then. What you just wrote reminds me an awful lot of Loey's review. I already replied to that. I am very much in disagreement with *everything* you just said. We are all entitled to our point of view, but what is obvious to *you* is not obvious to *me*. I am sure there will be angst for them, and that is fine by me. But that angst will have nothing to do with the way they feel about each other.
They love each other, neither of them is insecure or in doubt, there is NOTHING that suggests otherwise. Oz can come back for all I care, it will not matter. Willow cares for him I am sure, she may even love him. But her love for Tara outshines *everything*, it will overcome everything. I can go all psychological now and explain every look and loving touch they have given each other and present it as evidence. But if you can't see it, nothing I say will convince you.
------------------
"Hello! Tarasexual now..."
[This message has been edited by Dr.G (edited February 21, 2001).]
posted 02-21-2001 22:51 EST (US) Oh, i want to post more about this ep.
Darin, I think our boy Xander maybe into boys. First missing Riley and now missing Oz. He's got it bad how funny was puffy xander.
Did anyone see any x/b stuff going on?
Now, the sad part. I watched this twice. The second time I became extremely sad about Joyce. Seeing her so happy in the beginning, knowing what was coming. It was really too much. My gf found her mother much like that one time. Her mother spent 2 weeks in ICU on a ventilator but got better. But the end made her cry anyway. She knew how Buffy felt. It was very sad.
posted 02-22-2001 07:20 EST (US) Xita, I loved so many Xander moments in this ep. I'm gonna have to go back over the Espenson scripts and see if she's always so good to his character.
First, there was puffy-Xander, which was just so cute with the "stand me back up" so he could talk seriously to her, and then she hugs him and he can't hug back. I would have gotten notions there, but I kept Restless' "big brother" comment in mind, and this helped to make the scene more poignant instead of having it just be a stepping stone on the way to relationship melodrama.
Then, there was the hilarious bit where Giles tells the gang he has enormous amounts of research into robots they can do just so he can watch Xander squirm, then Xander laughs and says: "funny - charming and funny." I laughed hard on that one. Xander is probably jealous of Giles' wit and charm, but I hope he also realizes how much of it he has himself.
And of course my favorite was when the Xanman was there with Buff at the end, encouraging her as she made the decision that she needed to be alone for a while in order to get comfortable with herself. Another perfect, non-sexual moment between two friends. I saw this as a return to classic form for Xander because I could really see how much Joss put elements of himself in the character.
I know I just went off on a Xander love-rant on a w/t board, so let me just add that there was also some great Tara and Willow stuff and I am SOOO HAPPY that they decided not to dance at the party, because as we've seen recently, that can be a scary thing to watch.
posted 02-22-2001 07:58 EST (US) LOL darin, you are so right, about Xander *and* Willow and Tara, scary stuff indeed... Anyalvr, I think your reply ended up in the wrong thread, post it here, and for the record I agree with you as well.
posted 02-22-2001 08:21 EST (US) Willow's love for Tara doesn't cheapen her love for Oz. NMR made a perfect case study of that. Willow will always love and care for Oz and hold a special place for him in her heart, but that doesn't mean she loves Tara any less. Oz is the past and Tara is the future.
------------------ "I tried to be unlovable/why couldn't you do the same?"
-(jewel)
"Spank us 'til Tuesday! We promise to be bad if you do!" -(drusilla, angel)
posted 02-22-2001 10:22 EST (US) I'm sorry if my little rant seemed like I thought they were going to break up, that's the last thing i think will happen. I just noticed some tension between them in this ep, and it made me a little antsy. I dont think, however, that its that unreasonable to suggest that Willow may still think of Oz fondly from time to time. I dont think The Oz mention was entirely purposeless. I think they mentioned him for a reason. Ive heard rumors that Seth Green may come back for the season finale. Now, while I dont think it will be NMR all over again, that, among other things, is bound to cause some problems that will lead to a W/T reaffirmation of their love. That's what I think anyway. Maybe I'm just thinking this, because i'm in a similar situation. I'm in a very happy relationship, but sometimes my ex calls me and to quote Willow in NMR "I can feel it all coming back." That doesnt mean we're going to get back together, and it doesn't mean I love the person I'm with any less. I think Willow is in a similar situation. But you know, it doesnt have to revolve around Oz, I just think their relationship has been a little too perfect. Its a tv show, they go for drama. Perfect happy relationships dont stay that way very long on Buffy. They usually have at least some turmoil. Unless your Buffy, then your bound for inevitable heartbreak. So, maybe it wont be Oz that causes problems, maybe it'll be magic, or jealousy, or maybe one of them is put into mortal danger. Who knows? But I think in this ep they were laying some subtle framework showing that their relationship isn't all roses, so people wont be surprised when they do experience some real tension (and stay together of course). I think that's great anyway, I'd like to see them face some conflict and tension like real couples.
Btw, buffy doesn't reinvent old eps, but they have been known to bring back old storylines and characters just to cause conflict in the present storylines. So yeah, I can totally see Oz coming back for one episode, the season finale, maybe Tara gets put into danger or something, and Willow and Oz are forced to work together. They inevitably bond, but Willow is reaffirmed of her love for Tara. Possibly at the beginning of next season or something. I dont know, those are just some ideas. And yes, we have seen old-exes of characters coming back and causing conflict in their present relationships. Angel came back and caused problems between Riley and Buffy. Anya, as we know, was jealous of Willow and her closeness with Xander. Drusila came back recently and messed with Spike's head, or the chip in his head I should say. So, I dont think its that weird to suggest Oz returns and causes conflict. They wont break up, but it'll cause tension. At first I kinda thought I was making a mountain out of a molehill, but now that I think about it I'm even more convinced that the mention of Oz's name and Willow's reaction to it for the first time in eons meant something. Why would they mention it otherwise? Why would they bother to show Willow's reaction? Why would they not show Tara's reaction to indicate Willow was just bothered that Xander mentioned him around her? They, for whatever reason, wanted us to remember that line, because it will most probably become relevant in the future. I'm eager to see the shooting script to see what Alyson's intructions we're at that moment (if any). So, anyway, that's what I think..that's my final rant on the subject..
posted 02-22-2001 10:36 EST (US) Editing my entire post now:
Let us agree to disagree then. I will make my *final* rant here.
quote:
At first I kinda thought I was making a mountain out of a molehill, but now that I think about it I'm even more convinced that the mention of Oz's name and Willow's reaction to it for the first time in eons meant something. Why would they mention it otherwise? Why would they bother to show Willow's reaction?
Please reread Xita's replies to you. She has summed this up perfectly already, as did Corona.
Let me nitpick some more now: They *are* a REAL couple, angst or the lack there of has nothing to do with it. I am sure there will be angst for them. Like I said. Fine! I would not be surprised if there will be. But I do *not* believe that angst will have *anything* to do with them questioning their feelings for one another in *any* way.
Oz will return I am sure. He could return and stay for the rest of the series, but it won't matter. He will *not* come between Willow and Tara. Willow has made her choice and Oz has *accepted* it. Bless him.
Their love is AFFIRMED it does not need to be reaffirmed. They face conflict and tension every day. That is the kind of world they live in. The threat of a demon around every corner in itself should provide angst enough for anyone. Aside from that, it is not written in stone that all buffy couples must be miserable at one point or another.
W/T are in a league of their own, they are completely real and believeable to me, and always will be, even if all they do from now on is moon after each other, and would never know angst if it walked up and kicked them in the ass.
Time will tell which one of us is right.
[This message has been edited by Dr.G (edited February 22, 2001).]
xita
posted 02-22-2001 12:43 EST (US) Actually Calliope, none of those were recycled triangles. Angel had never met Riley. That was the first time. Anya and Willow had not gotten into a argument about Xander before. That was the resolution, I don't expect Anya to be jealous of Willow again. We never saw the xander/oz/willow triangle again or the cordy/xander/willow triangle. And Drusilla. She came back but the tension was different this was a Buffy/Spike/Drusilla triangle. Previously they had a Drusilla/Angelus/Spike triangle. So the writers have said they would love to bring Seth back for an episode if they could find a good story for it. I don't think rehashing the triangle is the way they would do it. So I disagree, ithink Oz would likely come back but not to get in the middle again. I expect most of those season finale appearances to be cameos. I think there will be angst between them but I am sure that the writers will find a real clever way of bringing this forth.
Gudanov
posted 02-22-2001 12:55 EST (US) It's really hard for me to see an Oz and Willow subplot coming up. It's the season finale, I don't see how they're goning have enough episode time for it. I also agree it would just be a rehash to do it and that's the last thing I think they'd want in a season finale.
I also can't imagine Joss doing something that will make it look like Willow is just bi-curious and will get over it. There will be angst because this is BtVS, but I think they'll be careful about. Like so many others, I suspect Willow going too fast, too far with magick will be the most likely source.
xita
posted 02-22-2001 22:43 EST (US) You know it's weird the way people see different things. I was just reading some posts where people who miss oz felt Willow had no reaction. They wanted a real reaction to the mention of his name.
tommo
posted 02-23-2001 04:21 EST (US) Okay, I haven't seen this ep so shoot me if I don't know what I'm talking about, but people wanting a reaction to Oz's name are pissing in the wind, in my opinion.
You can't compare Willow/Oz and Willow/Tara.
You *shouldn't* compare Willow/Oz and Willow/Tara.
Oz is Willow's ex. Gay now?
Willow is secure in her relationship with Tara.
Nuff said?
------------------ I just know she likes Willow, and she already has one of those.
lost.
posted 02-23-2001 10:23 EST (US) Just a little...randomness: In the last scene where Tara is seen in the episode, she's wearing jeans. Did anyone else snicker and say "pants day" ? Please tell me I'm not alone in this...
wiccie
posted 02-23-2001 10:44 EST (US) Hi lost,
You're not alone - I think that everytime I see W/T in jeans...But then that's why I wrote the story;~)
Glad you liked it!
xita
posted 02-23-2001 11:11 EST (US) Oh, god yes that's so funny. Pants day! Woo hoo! I tell you, it was nice to see Tara in jeans. I can't even recall the last time that happened. I want to say TIIT, but I may be way off.
calliope
posted 02-24-2001 11:25 EST (US) you know, this discussion on w/t/o has given me an idea. Now, I may regret this later, but how about we start a betting pool on our W/T speculation. We could all lay down our theories and place our bets. I have no idea how those bets would be settled, or what we would be betting for (fics, bragging rights?) , but it could be fun. Maybe you guys have some ideas on how this could work.
wiccie
posted 02-24-2001 12:04 EST (US) Xita, the last time I specifically remeber W&T wearing jeans was NMR. I'd have to obsessively watch all the eps from then on to give a definitive answer.
Then again, it's a rainy Saturday in SF, and for once I have the day to myself;~)
For the pool, my scenario is that Oz comes back for one or two eps to help w/Glory, and he and Tara have a warm, amiable heart-to-heart about loving Willow and keeping her happy. They don't become close friends, but at least he no longer wolfs out at the sight of W/T.
As for the stakes...How about stakes or steaks?*G*
tvsurfer
posted 02-24-2001 15:11 EST (US) Oz and Tara were kind of "close" whispering in each others ears in restless. so I think its a good bet that if Oz is back in the 100th eppie that he apologizes to Tara for wolfing out on her and that they bond a bit over willow
xita
posted 04-02-2001 02:52 EST (US) Ok, so I was watching my w/t tape and came upon the scene at the party. The scene where Buffy is dancing with Xander. You can see Willow and Tara and Anya in the background. You can barely see them but as the camera pans you can see them for a second at a time in between Xander and Buffy. I really liked this scene because I always love how they are still in character even when they aren't the focus of the scene. I could tell that they were looking at each other and smiling and then right as they bring the camera closer to them, Willow does the cutest thing. She smiles real sweetly at Tara and kinda bends her knee and does a little dip and moves her head to the side. It's very cute. Upon closer inspection. I can see that right before this Tara has her hands forward then they go back behind her back. So, I am thinking what was she doing. And then I rewind and see that when she had her hands forward that she also bent her head forward. It looked like she was drinking. So, I started to think and then I saw that Willow kinda brought her drink back. So I have decided this is the cutest moment ever because Willow was sharing her drink with Tara and Tara took a sip and Willow smiled thinking it was adorable. I loooooooooooooove this. Sharing a straw and a drink is just terribly romantic!
[This message has been edited by xita (edited April 02, 2001).]
Dr.G
posted 04-02-2001 03:12 EST (US) Wow. Not that I don't believe you, but I am going to rewatch this scene, very very carefully, so I can give an informed opinion on this matter.
Warduke
posted 04-02-2001 10:11 EST (US) After reading this, I watched that scene again and you’re right xita, W/T were sharing the same drink…OMG…that is so sweet and romantic
And the smile Willow gave Tara and that little dip, that was soooo cute
I also have to say xita, this is VERY observant of you; no one ever noticed that before…what else have the rest of us missed?
xita
posted 04-02-2001 10:29 EST (US) Warduke, oh... lots of tiny little details. I shall do my best to point them out... as time allows
Dr.G
posted 04-02-2001 10:33 EST (US) Shrimp are tiny aren't they?
april
posted 04-02-2001 10:36 EST (US) yes, i noticed this too, maybe the second time that i watched that scene. i guess i didn't think anything of it, because i share drinks with like everyone i know! just call me a 'soda whore' if you must...my friends and i just always reach across the table and help ourselves to whatever we're drinking. unless one of us has a cold or something. then we keep our drinks to ourselves.
this is probably waaaaay more information about my drinking habits than you ever wanted to know...
Catwoman
posted 04-02-2001 21:40 EST (US) You soda whore! Heh heh, don't worry, i do exactly the same thing with my friends so you're not the only soda whore in the world. W/T sharing a drink is very romantic and cute though
------------------ "And I happen to think mine is the level head and yours is the one things would roll off of."
BBOvenGuy
posted 04-03-2001 02:17 EST (US) Just for the record, Willow has shared sodas with Xander before. Food, too. There were a couple of instances back in early Season 2, most notably during the scene in Reptile Boy where Xander is talking about sneaking into a frat party to protect Buffy and/or catch an orgy.
[This message has been edited by BBOvenGuy (edited April 03, 2001).]
Jon@han
posted 04-03-2001 13:51 EST (US)
If there is ever any need to have a betting pool, I volunteer to be the bookie.
Yes.... send me your money.... I will see that it all goes to the proper recipient- er, recipientS.
No, really.
Ask anyone. I am the very model of fiscal responsibility.
------------------ Rev.Jon@han
Catwoman
posted 04-03-2001 21:02 EST (US) I know that Willow and Xander have shared their food before, but Willow and Tara are just so much cuter! In my opinion anyway. I used to be a W/X shipper in the olden days.
------------------ "And I happen to think mine is the level head and yours is the one things would roll off of."
BBOvenGuy
posted 04-03-2001 22:00 EST (US) Oh yes, definitely Willow and Tara are much cuter. I'm merely pointing out that Willow is consistently Willow. Also that Tara has reached Xander-level in terms of Willow's personal intimacy (which isn't always the same thing as sexual intimacy), and that says a lot.
posted 02-22-2001 12:43 EST (US) Actually Calliope, none of those were recycled triangles. Angel had never met Riley. That was the first time. Anya and Willow had not gotten into a argument about Xander before. That was the resolution, I don't expect Anya to be jealous of Willow again. We never saw the xander/oz/willow triangle again or the cordy/xander/willow triangle. And Drusilla. She came back but the tension was different this was a Buffy/Spike/Drusilla triangle. Previously they had a Drusilla/Angelus/Spike triangle. So the writers have said they would love to bring Seth back for an episode if they could find a good story for it. I don't think rehashing the triangle is the way they would do it. So I disagree, ithink Oz would likely come back but not to get in the middle again. I expect most of those season finale appearances to be cameos. I think there will be angst between them but I am sure that the writers will find a real clever way of bringing this forth.
posted 02-22-2001 12:55 EST (US) It's really hard for me to see an Oz and Willow subplot coming up. It's the season finale, I don't see how they're goning have enough episode time for it. I also agree it would just be a rehash to do it and that's the last thing I think they'd want in a season finale.
I also can't imagine Joss doing something that will make it look like Willow is just bi-curious and will get over it. There will be angst because this is BtVS, but I think they'll be careful about. Like so many others, I suspect Willow going too fast, too far with magick will be the most likely source.
posted 02-22-2001 12:59 EST (US) I know you were not addressing me, but I would like to respond to this:
quote: Originally posted by Nouvelle: This is for EvilAnya.
I'm not saying everything was easy. God knows it wasn't. But the one thing I think my family and I took from this experience was to simply be grateful for each and every day we have. I no longer get upset if I miss my favorite TV show or I get a bad haircut. Those things aren't important. Simply enjoying day to day life with loved ones is what matters most.
-Amy B.
Please bear with me now.
My father died unexpectedly (eventhough he had been ill for a long time, it was unexpected for me) 8 years ago now. I will never forget that day or get over that loss. At first I did not care to get upset about anything, it all seemed so unimportant. That has changed.
I am very grateful that I *do* get upset when I miss watching Buffy or when someone bashes Tara. I get angry at little and large things all the time. Because they *are* important to *me* again.
Each of us copes with loss and pain in different ways. No one can really help with that, other than offering support (just as you did now). You still have to go through it yourself, learn your own lessons and draw your own conclusions. I am not making sense here, am I?
It is just that the way I read your post, it sounds like you are making a general statement about what is important in life. And I think that is something we must all decide for ourselves.
Editing to add: Xita, I am sorry to hear that about your gf's mom. This ep and the next certainly bring up some powerful emotions for many people. However, I hope you will forgive me that I will be happy, regardless of the sadness I feel about Joyce, if they show some good W/T moments (like there are any other kind) next week.
[This message has been edited by Dr.G (edited February 22, 2001).]
posted 02-22-2001 22:43 EST (US) You know it's weird the way people see different things. I was just reading some posts where people who miss oz felt Willow had no reaction. They wanted a real reaction to the mention of his name.
posted 02-23-2001 04:21 EST (US) Okay, I haven't seen this ep so shoot me if I don't know what I'm talking about, but people wanting a reaction to Oz's name are pissing in the wind, in my opinion.
You can't compare Willow/Oz and Willow/Tara.
You *shouldn't* compare Willow/Oz and Willow/Tara.
Oz is Willow's ex. Gay now?
Willow is secure in her relationship with Tara.
Nuff said?
------------------ I just know she likes Willow, and she already has one of those.
posted 02-23-2001 10:23 EST (US) Just a little...randomness: In the last scene where Tara is seen in the episode, she's wearing jeans. Did anyone else snicker and say "pants day" ? Please tell me I'm not alone in this...
posted 02-23-2001 11:11 EST (US) Oh, god yes that's so funny. Pants day! Woo hoo! I tell you, it was nice to see Tara in jeans. I can't even recall the last time that happened. I want to say TIIT, but I may be way off.
posted 02-24-2001 11:25 EST (US) you know, this discussion on w/t/o has given me an idea. Now, I may regret this later, but how about we start a betting pool on our W/T speculation. We could all lay down our theories and place our bets. I have no idea how those bets would be settled, or what we would be betting for (fics, bragging rights?) , but it could be fun. Maybe you guys have some ideas on how this could work.
posted 02-24-2001 12:04 EST (US) Xita, the last time I specifically remeber W&T wearing jeans was NMR. I'd have to obsessively watch all the eps from then on to give a definitive answer.
Then again, it's a rainy Saturday in SF, and for once I have the day to myself;~)
For the pool, my scenario is that Oz comes back for one or two eps to help w/Glory, and he and Tara have a warm, amiable heart-to-heart about loving Willow and keeping her happy. They don't become close friends, but at least he no longer wolfs out at the sight of W/T.
As for the stakes...How about stakes or steaks?*G*
posted 02-24-2001 15:11 EST (US) Oz and Tara were kind of "close" whispering in each others ears in restless. so I think its a good bet that if Oz is back in the 100th eppie that he apologizes to Tara for wolfing out on her and that they bond a bit over willow
posted 04-02-2001 02:52 EST (US) Ok, so I was watching my w/t tape and came upon the scene at the party. The scene where Buffy is dancing with Xander. You can see Willow and Tara and Anya in the background. You can barely see them but as the camera pans you can see them for a second at a time in between Xander and Buffy. I really liked this scene because I always love how they are still in character even when they aren't the focus of the scene. I could tell that they were looking at each other and smiling and then right as they bring the camera closer to them, Willow does the cutest thing. She smiles real sweetly at Tara and kinda bends her knee and does a little dip and moves her head to the side. It's very cute. Upon closer inspection. I can see that right before this Tara has her hands forward then they go back behind her back. So, I am thinking what was she doing. And then I rewind and see that when she had her hands forward that she also bent her head forward. It looked like she was drinking. So, I started to think and then I saw that Willow kinda brought her drink back. So I have decided this is the cutest moment ever because Willow was sharing her drink with Tara and Tara took a sip and Willow smiled thinking it was adorable. I loooooooooooooove this. Sharing a straw and a drink is just terribly romantic!
[This message has been edited by xita (edited April 02, 2001).]
posted 04-02-2001 03:12 EST (US) Wow. Not that I don't believe you, but I am going to rewatch this scene, very very carefully, so I can give an informed opinion on this matter.
posted 04-02-2001 10:11 EST (US) After reading this, I watched that scene again and you’re right xita, W/T were sharing the same drink…OMG…that is so sweet and romantic
And the smile Willow gave Tara and that little dip, that was soooo cute
I also have to say xita, this is VERY observant of you; no one ever noticed that before…what else have the rest of us missed?
posted 04-02-2001 10:36 EST (US) yes, i noticed this too, maybe the second time that i watched that scene. i guess i didn't think anything of it, because i share drinks with like everyone i know! just call me a 'soda whore' if you must...my friends and i just always reach across the table and help ourselves to whatever we're drinking. unless one of us has a cold or something. then we keep our drinks to ourselves.
this is probably waaaaay more information about my drinking habits than you ever wanted to know...
posted 04-02-2001 21:40 EST (US) You soda whore! Heh heh, don't worry, i do exactly the same thing with my friends so you're not the only soda whore in the world. W/T sharing a drink is very romantic and cute though
------------------ "And I happen to think mine is the level head and yours is the one things would roll off of."
posted 04-03-2001 02:17 EST (US) Just for the record, Willow has shared sodas with Xander before. Food, too. There were a couple of instances back in early Season 2, most notably during the scene in Reptile Boy where Xander is talking about sneaking into a frat party to protect Buffy and/or catch an orgy.
[This message has been edited by BBOvenGuy (edited April 03, 2001).]
posted 04-03-2001 21:02 EST (US) I know that Willow and Xander have shared their food before, but Willow and Tara are just so much cuter! In my opinion anyway. I used to be a W/X shipper in the olden days.
------------------ "And I happen to think mine is the level head and yours is the one things would roll off of."
