Triangle Discussion

[Banshee]

posted 01-10-2001 14:54 EST (US)
Ok, my two cents(all of this based on 1/2 watching it and 1/2 explaining the back story to a friend who was over):

--Lovin' the Buffy Melodramatic stuff. I like cheese campy crap and she was all over it. Had the thought of, "Well, I can see why she won the Emmy for AMC.." I loved it..the little quiver of the bottom lip--break my heart!

--I too noticed the lack of Buffy's focus on saying how great w/t's love was--but, why that is seems to be up for debate.

--Line that had me laughing early on:
Dawn: Watcha doin'
Buffy: Playing soccer

Maybe it's just my sick, simple sense of humor but I loved it.

--Amber is the queen of unspoken emotions--her looks were all over this episode and she was great. Aside from her ability, I do have to wonder: What the hell was up with her hair? Did it look like it was malformed on her head?

--Anya is becoming one of my faves..I've begun to look forward to her screen time as much as I do willow or taras.

--Spike is adorable...and gropey.

Ok, plan on going home tonight and obsessively watching it.

-S

[Hugin]

posted 01-10-2001 15:15 EST (US)
Yeah. The Bianca moment is a really good example of why this is all, in a way, a shame Robert. Bianca should be able to dance with a guy if she feels like it, without it shaking the foundations of her identity, and giving fuel to folks who don't have her best interests at heart. (even if they think they do)

That's why I support the Hello, gay now line. Not because I have so very much invested in Willow being gay per se, if anything I've tended to be in the Willow-as-bi camp. But it's clear that very few folks (outside of this wonderful board) can deal with any complexity in this matter. I can now use the line like a big...frozen...halibut to beat the foolish over the head with. Which is to say, it's not exactly the tool I would have picked, but it helps get a job done that clearly needs doing.

Anything poor Willow says or does that doesn't support a total alignment with W/T, and/or gayness (The mention of the old crush on Giles. The mild infatuation with Drac. The failure to, I dunno, shoot Oz dead or something during the van scene) just unleashes a new round of second guessing, which annoys me to no end. Imagine if she was insane enough to compliment a shirt:

"Oh, nice shirt Xander."

Clearly, that means:

"Ah, see, she just flirted with Xander, she really loves him, and all men, see!"

Bah.

I really need to stay away from the Bronze. Oy.

-len

[Spring]

posted 01-10-2001 15:23 EST (US)
I took the "gay now" line to be a funny way to say "What's Tara, chopped liver? I got my own sitch, baby!" Or "You wanna talk lips? Have you seen the lips on my woman?"

Well you get the point. I am also in the Willow as bisexual camp, but she's currently in a gay relationship so it would make sense for her to say she's currently gay. It's no big.

[Hugin]

posted 01-10-2001 15:26 EST (US)
Ah, hi Spring. It's no big. So calm, so concise. Next time I go to the Bronze, I'm taking you with me.

-len

[christa monsta]

posted 01-10-2001 15:26 EST (US)

mmmm...lipssssssss....

[glenda the good witch]

posted 01-10-2001 15:26 EST (US)
I thought this was a pretty great episode. I agree with gogrrr ... I was left thinking ..hmmm Buffy is so freaked about X/A and not a mention of how great W/T was. It could be a director thing, a script cut thing or whatever..it didn't feel good and felt like a set up for X/A troubles. Which I guess in the end is good coz that mean's no W/T troubles?

My fav line apart from "Hello, gay now" was the lil "baby" dialogue between troll man and Spike with Xander's great reaction. I absolutely adore Spike and thought the scene with the dummy was HYSTERICAL. If Spike does get that chip out, I have a feeling Buffy will be in HUGE trouble after all this angst.

I also loved Tara bonding with Buffy and a bit with Xander (though not directly with him). There was a thread awhile back about who could Tara be buds with apart from Willow, and in a weird way I could totally see her be buddies with Xander or Buffy. Buffy could use some stong but quiet women types around her. Buff has a lot of male role models which may also contribute to the way she handles relationships and she could use some of Willow's feminity and Tara's strength.

Anyhoo...now I'm rambling

Glenda

[april]

posted 01-10-2001 15:34 EST (US)

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hugin:
Now all Amy needs is Pinky, and she can take over the world!

---

what are we going to do today amy? lol!

len, i am loving this and all your other posts to this thread. hee hee!

and crista, i'm totally with you: i tend to be against labels, but it was sooooo nice to hear willow say those three magic words in front of an audience of millions last night.

now personally, i'm fine with willow defining her sexuality any way she chooses. if she defines it according to the person that she's with (a perfectly valid option), then yes, she is gay now, she was not gay before, and whether or not she's gay in the future depends on who she dates in the future. (though i hope that she and tara are together forever and ever...*cue violins*)

there is just nothing that can be done about the people who use the "now" in that phrase to try and prove that willow isn't "really" gay. she and tara could kiss 10 times an episode, embark on epic onscreen sexathons a la buffy and riley, have a commitment ceremony and start a family by adopting little wicclets to keep mkf company, and the people who don't like their relationship will still say that it won't last, that they don't see any chemistry between w/t and that they know willow is really straight. there is just no convincing them, so we might as well revel in lines like "hello, gay now!" and ignore the lame people who say lame things.

so there.

[Spring]

posted 01-10-2001 15:35 EST (US)
I was too aghast at having Buffy and Tara conversing in order to appreciate their special brand of chemistry. They do have a special brand of chemistry, right? It was distracting to see them conversing for the first time 15 episodes after her introduction.
I think Xander and Tara are both affable people and would suit each other on a friend to friend level. Whereas you are right Glenda, Buffy needs more girlfriends and Tara is just an extremely relaxed human being. I'm sure if Tara had been around at the beginning of the season (instead of going off and playing with her wiccie friends), Tara could've really explained to Buffy where here relationship with Riley was going wrong.
Isn't it strange that the ep Tara was introduced in was also the ep where Riley was outed as an initiative person? And isn't it strange that Tara's still here but Riley isn't? Wow.

[Hugin]

posted 01-10-2001 15:55 EST (US)
Wicclets april? That's insanely cute.

-len

[Dr.G]

posted 01-10-2001 16:30 EST (US)
Boy, I wish I could watch this episode. It sounds great. Of course I'm disappointed about the hug not being shown, but I feel better knowing now the ladies show some initiative off screen.

You're right April, there is no convincing the lame and stupid. I don't even want to waste my breath. The truth is on our side anyway. It makes me happy and them miserable, which is just the way I like it. Willow and Tara forever indeed! I like violins btw.

[Devlin]

posted 01-10-2001 16:33 EST (US)
So, what's up with the Greek theme that popped up both in Restless and Triangle? Aside from the greek Sappho poem on Tara's back, when Willow was reading her book report to the class, Anya said, "It's like a Greek Tragedy... There should only be Greeks." That's one of the lines in Restless that competes for most confusing in my mind, and I'm not sure if its made better or worse by Tara and Buffy taking Greek Art.

[yenESQ]

posted 01-10-2001 16:48 EST (US)
It would be interesting if Tara helped Buffy pay attention in the Greek Arts class long enough for her to figure out info on Glory, who would be some unknown Greek goddess. That would also serve the purpose of acknowledging that they are, in fact, going to college AND taking classes!

But as much as I like this speculation, I don't see it happening.

Although, the "Greek tragedy" reference from Restless could be foreshadowing the choice Buffy will need to make regarding the fate of Dawn. Not that I know what Greek tragedy is...

[This message has been edited by yenESQ (edited January 10, 2001).]

[wiccie]

posted 01-10-2001 17:01 EST (US)
Many great points, all around.

Devlin, my guess on the "Greek Theme" is that it's Joss' (or another of the writers) in-joke about their own college years. Did any of them major or minor in classics? We know Joss went to school in England and has mini Shaxspur Fests at his house with the BTVS cast.

I liked the ep, esp. Abraham Benrubi as Olaf, but the overal pacing seemed uneven.

I'll chalk that up to a newbie director and poor editing.

Fave moments other than "Hello, gay now!"

Xander hiding behind Tara

The Smarter Amy lines

Foreshadowing Alert:

I think the idea of Willow getting too cavlier with magic will become more important. Remember in "Out of My Mind" Tara seemed concerned that Willow tampered with the "Tinkerbell Light Spell", and in "Family" Tara is "spell gal" to keep up w/ Willow.

Anyway, longer post than I intended. Whew!

[christa monsta]

posted 01-10-2001 17:10 EST (US)
One more thing i got from reading Rayne's Shooting Script for Triangle...was wondering why Anya all of a sudden was talking about a health inspector!

"ANYA
You're going away for a week?
That's great!

GILES
Yes, yes. Everyone seems quite
delighted about it.

ANYA
Well, I get to run the store, right?

GILES
You... There's quite a lot for
one person to do...
(consults a list)
The trashmen, for example. They've
been making such a mess in the alley
that the recycling people can't get
in there to collect. Someone has to
talk to them. Also, there's some
health inspector who has decided that
potions are technically "food," and
that we need a full inspection.

ANYA
I can take care of that.

XANDER
Food? Who's sitting around saying,
hey, I could go for some tasty potion.

TARA
I'm envious, Giles. A trip to
England sounds so exciting and exotic.
(realizing)
Unless you're English."

[Corana]

posted 01-10-2001 17:23 EST (US)
This is in response to the gay/bi question:

Since when aren't bi people gay? All of my bi friends consider themselves gay. They wouldn't refer to themselves as lesbians, but gay isn't off limits.

Does anyone else see it this way?

[Zelda]

posted 01-10-2001 17:33 EST (US)
I always use gay and queer as all inclusive terms. However, I don't think that was Willow's point. Telling Anya that she was bi now doesn't allay Anya's fears about Willow putting moves on Xander.

[darvangi]

posted 01-10-2001 17:56 EST (US)
There was an interesting show on NPR recently that spent a half hour talking about the history of the words 'queer' and 'gay' and whether or not they are all-inclusive. The opinion of the guest speaker was that 'gay' is taken by modern society to mean strictly homosexual, whereas 'queer' is more commonly accepted as a term that includes the whole LGBT population.

I, however, agree with you folks who say that 'gay' can be inclusive as well. And I think that the script was just making it clear that Willow was no longer in the running for hot, greasy man-love, and that Anya could cool her jets.

[judy]

posted 01-10-2001 18:36 EST (US)
And then there's the Chinese... who did not originally have a "homo-hetero dichotomy"... ("Tongzhi: The Politics of Same-Sex Eroticism in Chinese Societies")

Hmmm...

"Hello, grinding tofu now!"

[hypergirl]

posted 01-10-2001 19:44 EST (US)
Hi...new here...I'm Ashley.... LoL
Anywayz I was watching the episode again just now ...and I had read things about Tara not doing many spells and such lately ...and I something as I watched it again just struck me...at the beginning when Willow is first getting stuff from the shop...Anya says What are you TWO doing....and Willow says WE're working on a few spells ...next up Tara talks about how they're trying to do the light spell...and turns out later that Willow is the only one to try it. Evidently it was they for a bit....Tara had worked or had looked into it with Willow and such....and eh I'm beginning to ramble so I'm going to stop right now. Hopefully you guys will get used to my weird use of periods and rambling....boy do I ramble. LoL

Ciao -
ºAshleyº

[Zelda]

posted 01-10-2001 19:51 EST (US)
Hey Ashley. Welcome. If you want, go down to the Introduction thread and properly introduce yourself. Glad to have you here.

[april]

posted 01-10-2001 20:53 EST (US)

quote:

---

Originally posted by judy:
"Hello, grinding tofu now!"

---

ROFLMAO, judy!!!! hee hee hee... hello!

oh and ashley, i noticed that as well...willow initially implied that both she and tara were working on the spell, but later tara just seems to have dropped out of the picture. hey willow! let tara play too!

maybe if you'd waited for tara, you never would have had that pesky troll problem!

[xita]

posted 01-10-2001 22:25 EST (US)
Hello, gay now.

Anyone can think what they want. And interpretations can all be valid. So I'll give mine. I have no doubt that the writers have decided that Willow is a lesbian. Let's remember that they didn't want to use labels at all ever. They just wanted things to just be. Something changed and they decided to do that. Joss felt that it wasn't possible not to. So they chose gay and they chose to use it twice. Not only that they chose to use it in a way that was going to make Anya feel better. Willow and the writers used the word gay to prove to Anya that Willow would never try to steal Xander away because as of now she's gay. I am also satisfied with the responsible attitude that Joss and company have dealt with this whole thing that their use of the word gay guarantees that Willow won't be with a guy again. I don't think they would want to confuse the issue.

I am left with something though. And I will admit that I don't like the idea, only cause I am so attached to her. Tara hasn't declared her sexuality. It may be Tara in the end that ends up being bisexual.

[MCaswell]

posted 01-10-2001 22:27 EST (US)
I don't have much to add, just wanted to say that I had a blast watching and rewatching Triangle. There were too many great throw-away lines and hilarious moments to mention. It was FUN. I missed fun Buffy. Even the Riley-angst was funny.

Gotta mention Alyson Hannigan, she's remarkable. Her timing and delivery were perfect.

"In what twisted dictionary is that stealing?"

"He's not a ball of sunshine."

"I wish I had a million dollars."

I was LMAO at her expression when she found out Anya had never driven before. And her Anya imitation was dead on. Too good. I adore Willow.

Marie

[xita]

posted 01-11-2001 01:29 EST (US)
Oh, believe me, Tara was like all about the lesbian vibes. I never doubted that. I am just being weird with worry. And I am with you.. I want Tara and Willow to stay together forever and ever and I don't want a boy or a girl to get in there in between them. That's why the gay now line makes me happy. And yes.. unrealistic for me to expect them to last, but hey it makes me happy.

Just wanted to give a plug to the newly available Triangle screen caps from Adrienne at Extra Flamey
and at Stain and Varnish
GO DRI!

[This message has been edited by xita (edited January 11, 2001).]

[mucifer]

posted 01-11-2001 09:24 EST (US)
i've always felt that tara was lesbian especially when willow and tara had that discussion in "hush" where tara says she always knew she was a witch. sure it's subtext but im hoping there wont be inconsistancies with the writing.

on the "hello gay now " line i still think the writers are lashing out at the homophobes in full blast. didnt even occur to me the "you can turn on and off the being gay thing" because it is consistant with how willow speaks and the way she would reassure anya and being full of pride about her current love

[christa monsta]

posted 01-11-2001 10:11 EST (US)

hey, is it me, or did willow's t-shirt (underneath her black jacket) have a pair of lips on it that looked suspiciously like the lips from Rocky Horror Picture Show??? or is this just a figment of imagination? if not - how cool is that?

------------------

W: "I am a whiz!"
T: "She is a whiz!"
W: "If ever a whiz there was..."
- The Yoko Factor

[xita]

posted 01-11-2001 10:15 EST (US)
Triangle reviews at Scifi.ign
and at WB Scoop

YOu know one of the complaints I hear about the episode was Buffy's tears. I didn't take it at all seriously. Some people are bothered because it was too cruel to mock b/r. Others thought that Buffy didn't love him enough to cry like that. I just took it as a parody and in a way a very clever way to deal with the loss of a somewhat unpopular character.

[Dr.G]

posted 01-11-2001 10:23 EST (US)
Xita, you took the words right out of my mouth (except for the bi bit), I could have said that myself, wait...I did say that, hehe. They *will* last btw, another law of nature I just made up. Thanks for the link to the pics, they weren't up last night.
Thank you Adrienne for the quick service. Must have pictures...lots of it. Tara pictures are my soul food. She looks great as always, such wonderful expressions on her face. On closer inspection I still like Willow's hair, and it looks like Buffy is wearing *hers* like Britney Spears, hmmm...

Editing to add: I was of course referring to the post before this one Xita, don't post when I'm posting will ya...

[This message has been edited by Dr.G (edited January 11, 2001).]

[april]

posted 01-11-2001 10:48 EST (US)

quote:

---

Originally posted by xita:
I am left with something though. And I will admit that I don't like the idea, only cause I am so attached to her. Tara hasn't declared her sexuality. It may be Tara in the end that ends up being bisexual.

---

here i go again with my morning xita stalking, um, i mean, quoting.

especially after seeing triangle, i doubt that we will ever see any evidence that tara is bisexual. in fact, i doubt we'll ever see any evidence of tara being attracted to anyone else - it is just so clear that she is singlemindedly, wholeheartedly devoted to willow. willow is her entire world, you can see that so clearly by the look on her face when she's in the magic shop telling buffy that willow's gone, by the way she tells willow at the end of family that she always makes her feel special. i don't think tara can even conceive of being attracted to someone else.

for all intents and purposes, tara's sexual orientation is really neither gay nor bisexual - it's just willow.

and i like it that way.

[Dr.G]

posted 01-11-2001 10:54 EST (US)
Awww April (mind if I stalk *you*? Just practising in case I get to stalk Amber one day.) I like that..."her sexual orientation is just Willow"...perfect!