Discussion – S6E15 – "As You Were"

[Wiccagrrl]

Ari, great points, and it's very, very likely that if Spike weren't the Doctor they would have already told us. Not that it would make him any less involved if he had co-conspirators.

I, too, was glad to see Buffy make the decision on her own, and am very glad to see (what I REALLY hope is) the end of B/S.

And yes, Tara nailed it way back in Crush.

[AutumnT]

Hey wasn't Willow cute tonight?

------------------
Autumn

I have the sudden urge to dedicate my productive cooperation.

[Eyes Without A Face]

Rally,

I feel sorry for Spike because Buffy was in great part his way to redemption, his road to salvation. I do not like Buffy to live in a cartoon world of cardboard characters where an evil person can never change for good or a good person can never be drawn to the dark side. Spike will now have to go at it alone, for the moment, like he did for the 4 months when he was mourning Buffy and still slaying with the Scoobies. This may yet show us the true measure of the man or the beast within.

Willow is always cute.

------------------
Wallpapers
Illegitimi non carborundum!

[This message has been edited by Eyes Without A Face (edited February 27, 2002).]

[Wiccagrrl]

quote:

---

Originally posted by AutumnT:
Hey wasn't Willow cute tonight?

---

abso-friggin'-lutely. "What a bitch" Had me LMAO.

So nice to see Sam giving her some moral support as well- letting Willow know she was impressed with how strong she was. Something I think Willow needed to hear.

quote:

[xita]

Autumn Willow was soooooooooooooooo cute!

I think the thing to remember is that it is called Buffy the Vampire Slayer, and that the show revolved around Buffy, Xander and Willow and what happens to them is essentially what is important on the show. The rest of the cast support their storylines.

The look I loved the most, was after Dawn tells Willow that there's dating possibilities. It reminded me of that look she gave Tara after Tara said, "She can be ours, if you want to."

[This message has been edited by xita (edited February 27, 2002).]

[willow420]

quote:

---

Originally posted by AutumnT:
Hey wasn't Willow cute tonight?

---

Totally. I loved her happy little jump at the bronze and just the fact that she was happy again. I also noticed that when Sam mentioned magic that Willow didnt get all jittery like she usually does she just got a little angry.

------------------
A.K.A. Liz

"Did you try looking in the sofa in hell?" Willow in Dopplegangland.
*************************
"We prefer Justice Demon, okay? FYI?"
Halfrek in Older and Far Awayquote:

[Rally]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eyes Without A Face:
Rally,

I feel sorry for Spike because Buffy was in great part his way to redemption, his road to salvation.

---

And again I say HUHHHNNN? This has exactly what to do with Willow and Tara?

Going away from this, as I am really trying hard to do. Wills was absolutely darling tonight, very old school Will. Very happy, very cute.

------------------
"Everyone's getting spanked but me."quote:

[Wiccagrrl]

quote:

---

Originally posted by xita:
Autumn Willow was soooooooooooooooo cute!

I think the thing to remember is that it is called Buffy the Vampire Slayer, and that the show revolved around Buffy, Xander and Willow and what happens to them is essentially what is important on the show. The rest of the cast support their storylines.

---

Except, of course, for Tara, who is essential

quote:

[PF26]

Actually, I thought Willow looked better tonight than she has in quite some time, although I'm more of a Tara gal myself.

I really wish they would stop equating magic with drugs though, I'm sure it's been discussed to death, so I won't bother ranting about it.

It was good that Sam told her just how strong she was. I hope she can keep it together.

PF26

[BBOvenGuy]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eyes Without A Face:
I feel sorry for Spike because Buffy was in great part his way to redemption, his road to salvation.

---

That may be... and in fact, it may still be at some point in the future. But in order for Buffy to be Spike's path to redemption, Spike must want to be on the path to redemption. Right now, he obviously doesn't.

If Spike wanted Buffy to be his path to redemption, then he would be trying to join her in the light, not pulling her into the dark. He doesn't think there's anything wrong with who he is. That was made abundantly clear.

------------------
Remember the Kitten Board Mantra: "Joss is nuts about Tara, Willow/Tara and Amber!"
(...and Marti's rather fond of them, too...)quote:

[cachaco]

Gee willikers, Willow sure was cute tonight. "Hence the happy." Tee-hee!

Riley's return made me realize that I like the world of the Initiative in small doses - as a drawn-out arc it was kinda boring, but as just a hint of a whole 'nother type of demon-fighting, with its own rules and customs (and gadgets!) is really suggestive. Buffy's kinda like a sheriff in the Old West, battling basically by herself (i.e., without an organization) out on the frontier where all the action is. The Initiative, or whatever you call the thing Riley's involved in now (Department of Forestry, LMAO!) is a larger organization, like the cavalry or something, that passes by Buffy's frontier town occasionally, but who aren't really connected, just fighting the same general fight. (Of course, this fight is much better than Manifest Destiny!) I'd watch a Riley and Sam Military-X-Files miniseries, could be entertaining - again, just in small doses.

The wedding ep looks to be a sidesplitter, those dresses are even worse than I had imagined..."squidly" .

------------------
PASTURE: See... that is, where you are a mockup. With I think on..., you grew up to what, and... then regard I, which you form... it me are proud. It educates me to love you more.

[SiWangMu]

I'm kinda glad I wandered away before that particular debate got kinda ugly... for the record, everybody's right.

And Autumn, what a great distraction! That thing you said about Willow be....
.
.
.
.
:: ahem:: being cute, yes. Ah, my mind wandered.
Also surprisingly cute in a different way: Xander And Anya.
Not cute: Buffypain sad. Buffy annoying arrogant coworker who if he's so good how come he's working at a DoubleMeat, huh?
:: ahem again::
Ooh, interesting thought: Sam said she was going after Riley... how awful would it have been if she burst in with him upon the scene of B and S in bed? (On second thought let's not psychoanalyze that choice too deeply 'cuz more debates about B/S are about the last thing we need just now) But it would've been pretty bad.

EDITED TO ADD: DANCE OF JOY! I made next rank! Uh, this means I can get in trouble now, doesn't it? :: scurries off to reread the FAQ::

------------------
"I think this line's mostly filler"

"Tara: I do not know in other things concerning everyone, but, the chicken is loved."

[This message has been edited by SiWangMu (edited February 27, 2002).]

[xita]

Yes the higher the posting level teh more trouble you can get in

Seriously, total joke

[invisigoth]

Did anyone else want to curl up into a fetal postion when Riley walked in on Buffy and Spike? How completely mortifying for Buff. I'm really happy Buffy seems to be breaking it off with Spike.

But - ouch! I could totally see William shining through in those last scenes.

It was great seeing Willow happy. Here's hoping for a reunion to the only couple that seems to have any chance on this show.

[Wiccagrrl]

Congrats, SiWangMu, on becoming a floating rose. And yes, it was very good that it was just Riley who found B/S together. I think having Sam walk in on them might have been just a bit too much for Buffy.

Overall, I liked Riley here. Part of that may have been knowing he was gonna be leaving again by the end of the ep, but he was very sweet and supportive of Buffy, and telling her that the ups and downs didn't change who she was- *so* what she needed to hear.

Oh, and the aftermath of this ep seems to have broken the BC&S board. Makes things here seem tame by comparison.

Oh, and new sig line. I won't use it too often, cause it's kinda long, but rewatching Wrecked and loved these quotes.

------------------
Tracy

******************

VILLOV
I troost yuu. Hurty flurty schnipp schnipp!

***************

Buffy: Will, there's nothing wrong with you. You don't need magic to be special.

Willow: Don't I? I mean, Buffy, who was I? Just some girl. Tara didn't even know that girl.

Buffy: You are more than some girl. And Tara wants you to stop. She loves you.

Willow: We don't know that.

Buffy: I know that. I promise you.

[This message has been edited by Wiccagrrl (edited February 27, 2002).]

[JJ]

Scattershots:

Riley nailed it on the head when describing Spike, "amoral". He will do things that are good only if they suit his needs; hence he'll help Buffy, and by extension Dawn, because he loves her, but he'll only tolerate the rest of the gang. He can't really go back to being pure evil (unless something in him along w/ his chip snaps) and killing people, so he has to settle for doing things regardless of consequences like demon-egg watching w/o knowing or caring about what happens afterward. He's Nixon w/ fangs.

It was nice that Sam and Buffy didn't end up being rivals for Riley's affections; I was worried that's how it might turn out. It's good that Sam's a cool chick.

Missed the first two parts while having dinner w/ the wife, so the basking in Willow's happiness must wait til tomorrow.

Xander, you should've eloped. Worked like a charm for me. I can't stand much of my immediate family either.

Let's hope this is truly the end for Buffy's sex romps w/ Spike. She needs a good man, someone like Riley w/o his hangups.

As I said in the mini-spoiler thread, the next ep should be a dandy.

------------------
Amberholic #1969
Keeper of the kitten spirit that lies in us all
Keeper of the fluffy pink rhinos (don't ask)
The 100th Light for Tara
Bardlet #15 (thanx Angie)
President of Guys Who Love Willow & Tara Fan Club

"Ignorance and prejudice and fear walk hand in hand."
from 'Witch Hunt' by Rush

[SiWangMu]

Just wanted to respond to xita and Wiccagrrl for responding to me... Thanks, y'all, makes me feel all special like I'm talkin' to people.

Okay, geeky internet-love aside....
This eppy only makes me anticipate the rest of the season even more. I want to see what they're going to do with Buffy's future, I want to see where Xander and Anya end up (I thought the distinction between the wedding and the marriage that they made tonight was utterly romantic and sweet, but then I also loved Anya's line about how the wedding WOULD go off as planned, if she had to kill every guest and half the town to make it so. If I recall correctly, Xander seemed to understand this sentiment rather well). I want to see Will declare a major. I want to see TARA. I want to see more of this new supportive-Dawn. I'm actually morbidly curious to see what would happen if Dawn somehow found out that her big brother Spike was shagging her big sis. Except I don't really wanna see that, cuz some things maybe she is too young for just yet. Although Buffy kinda slipped today with that "he's not getting any gentler." Willow and Dawn caught it, too--makes me curious. Did I mention upcoming TARA? Yay! And.... drumroll...
Imminent Tara/Willow goodness! Imminent sometime, anyway, which I'll definitely take right now. What is it the Bronzers say? Thank Joss.

(edited to add)
I know I shouldn't even mention it, but I just can't resist. Staying away from all question's of Spike's morality, or even whether it's real love or not, I just watched the end again and was touched by one thing in particular: Spike steadily tries to convince Buffy not to leave, no matter what she says, UNTIL: she says that using him is killing her. He basically goes "Oh" and he makes no further attempt to stop her. It just... I'm all sentimental, and it was the best ending they possibly could've had. Spike's regard for her pain (it showed on his face) and Buffy's compassion for him ("William") were just ridiculously endearing and heartening.
I'm a weird little person.

------------------
"I think this line's mostly filler"

"Tara: I do not know in other things concerning everyone, but, the chicken is loved."

[This message has been edited by SiWangMu (edited February 27, 2002).]

[shellybean]

I liked the ep, and I never thought I'd say this but I liked seeing Riley again. I kinda missed him and didn't even realize it. It'd be kinda cool if Sam could stick around though, I liked her.
And how cute was Willow!! She was so excited about Tara!! even though it sucked not seeing Tara, it was nice that she was mentioned. And when Willow was talking about how she imagined her and Xanders wedding, I was just thinking if Willow ever thought of marrying Tara. I was hoping she'd say something like how it changed from Xander to Tara, but I guess its just wishful thinking.

[xita]

That's an interesting thought, has Willow thought of marrying Tara? It certainly seems she's been thinking a lot about what it would be like to be in Tara's arms again.

[Ari]

Can you imagine the Rosenburgs trying to mingle with Mr. Maclay and Donnie? And of course Cousin Beth.

shudder

Ari

[juri-sempai]

Jumping into the fray to give my take on the episode.

I missed Riley. It was good to see him again. Yes, I know I'm in the minority but I liked the guy. His returning brought definite closure to his relationship with Buffy. Not that we were all sitting here hoping he'd come around again to win back the heart of his woman.

I was kinda surprised with Dawn's reaction to Riley's return. I mean, I know she's been having abandonment issues but she didn't really seem to be bothered when Riley left the first time in season 5.

Giddy Willow talking about Tara. That's always nice to see. Pretty soon, I'm sure, we'll see Giddy Willow talking *to* Tara.

I didn't like those egg things. Reminded me too much of the Alien movies. Those things always creeped me out. I'm not sure why Spike would keep those things laying around his crypt (unfrozen) so that they could hatch and hurt people. Yes, Spike is not a good guy. BUT if he was down there doing naughty things with Buffy when those things happened to go free... BOTH he and Buffy would have been attacked. Not good. And very stupid. He might not care about other people, but he cares about Buffy and himself, so I'm not sure why he would put them in danger.

Just my opinion, no need to debate the buhjeezus out of it.

Soooo many bags of chips!! Oh, and the drink Dawn hands Willow... an Arnold Palmer? Never heard of it. I didn't get the insideyness of that.

------------------
Reincarnation: the futile attempt to get the milk back into the can

"I'm a blood-sucking fiend! Look at my outfit!"

[tyche]

Quoting my lovely fiance again, b/c he and I have the same brain, and although I haven't seen this ep, I suspect he's summed what I'll think when I do:

quote:

---

Well, it was good to see Riley again. Just thought I'd get that in, since several hundred people are going to fall back on knee-jerk Riley-bashing. Or already have. The big problem with this ep was that it seemed rushed. It went by in a flash, but they had too much story to cover in 43 minutes. It would have been better if it were a half hour longer; they needed more scenes between Riley & Buffy, just to talk & hash things out, and a couple more scenes with Spike, to find out what the deal was w/ the egg things, and for Buffy & Spike to talk as well.

Ok, the actress who played Riley's wife was flat out terrible; gah, that was the worst acting since the awful Clare Kramer in s5. Yikes. Though it was kind of cool that he married a fellow soldier. And he was so over Buffy--that must have given her a chill.

Well, this ep was probably the closest I'll ever come to using the words 'poor Spike.' When Buffy nonchalantly called him 'incompetent' (accurately, btw) when he was standing right there--ouch. But then again, Spike has always been famous for speaking hard truths to others' faces, so I guess he can suck it up & take it. And Buffy did the right thing at the end. "I'm using you. I can never love you." Think we can get that on a banner? I have a feeling Doug Petrie has just replaced David Fury as the most hated man in Spike-lovers' hearts. He'll get over it.

There's always been a cult of Spike among the fans. I get that, he's a charismatic character, both as a black hat & a grey hat. I enjoy the character, but he does have limitations. Every character does. The writers have been trying to make him all things to all people--good guy, bad guy, enigmatic guy--and it's starting to blow up in their faces. I mean, what is this shit w/ the eggs? I feel like a parent saying, don't even try to explain (and I mean, saying that to the writers, not Spike). I've said it before, but the writers need to decide who Spike is. This shit is getting old. He's a villain for the ages in FFL. Then he's a pathetic stalker for half of s5. He's a master manipulator/opportunist in TYF. And at various times in s2, s4, s5, and now tonight, he's a bumbling, incompetent idiot. Enough already. Pick a direction, or he becomes a joke.

Now, are people still going to immerse themselves in denial, and continue to rationalize that Buffy really loves Spike, but she's in denial or whatever? Probably, but I'm done arguing the point. Anything could change in future eps, but for now, that ship has sailed. And I have to think Petrie was twisting the knife a bit near the end--when Riley says "It's not that I enjoyed seeing you in bed with that idiot" I loved how there was no venom in his voice. None. He said it dismissively, like he was swatting away a fly. Spike is beneath him. And I know the Spuffy-ites are gonna hate Buffy with an even more fiery passion, but I thought the end was kind of touching. Unlike Petrie, Buffy wasn't twisting the knife. She did what she had to do, b/c she knows in her heart that using Spike is wrong. And when she called him William, she said it with affection. That was nice. It indicates that she does realize this isn't the Spike of old, the 'dead thing', but someone who has helped her & her friends numerous times (while still playing both sides of the fence). But she doesn't love him.

---

quote:

[fell]

This was a very effective and powerful episode and turning point for Buffy, I'm sure.

I thought this ep made excellent use of Riley. Since he knew Buffy before she got all pathetic but hadn't seen her since before her Mom died, this was the perfect way to hold up a mirror for her for a major reality check. Finding herself confronting all the unresolved emotions of losing Riley, she had to confront herself as well. Suddenly she was back in the place she was at before her mom died, before she herself died, and she couldn't help but compare "Buffy then" to "Buffy now".

I kept waiting for Riley to say, "What the hell happened to you?" Of course, he didn't need to; she was saying it to herself when she walked away from her mcjob and broke up with Spike. It was a lot more like the S5 Buffy to be all noble and stiff-upper-lippy at the end and apologise to Riley for how the relationship ended (even though it was mostly his fault, imo) instead of telling him she came after him.

This episode's events clearly illuminated for Buffy just how low she's sunk. Her job is every bit as worthless and demeaning as her relationship with Spike and on some level she knew it. As we've seen before, Buffy is pretty good at deluding herself, but only up to a point. Her effectiveness as the Slayer always seems to suffer when she's being all pathetic and feeling sorry for herself. (The Freshman) While it's never been stated, it seems clear that her emotional state has a direct bearing on her strength and ability to fight. We've seen her get her butt kicked by one vampire when she was distracted or filled with selfdoubt, and at the other extreme she can be almost effortlessly deadly when she's feeling pissed off or determined. (Into the Woods, The Wish)

So great to have the old Willow back- animated Willow, loyal, clever, warm, funny Willow. Now if she can only get her Tara back all will be right in the Buffyverse.

[J]

From the W/T standpoint of the storyline, I was glad to see that Willow had tried to call Tara to explain things but that she hung up on her. We still need "the talk" but I'm glad we saw that Willow tried. Kinda shocking to know that Tara wasn't even on speaking terms with her at one point, something we really didn't get from the show. And Tara won't hang up on her now, a sign of thawing in the realationship.
Just a matter of time.
Really liked this ep. Using "William" showed respect, too.
Buffy still never told Riley that she had loved him. Not once.

[MadeinNZ]

Really good episode. It felt like everybody had turned the corner and we're on the home straight. Low on the angst meter.

Loved upbeat Willow. She gave Xander a great look after the disposable camera discussion. She also had the best line of the night right at the end (I won't repeat it incase there are youngsters about).

And Buffy called Spike "William". Speak about rip your heart out. For a moment I thought she was going to say "you're beneath me" (reference to S5). Watch out - Buffy's back!

Can't wait for the wedding.

[This message has been edited by MadeinNZ (edited February 27, 2002).]

[fell]

Spike was supposedly born in the 19th century and his use of terms like "bint" and "trull" isn't necessarily what one might find in a contemporary dictionary. My complete OED notes that "bint" is both archaic and obsolete. It is not an informal term for woman, like 'gal' for instance. It was an insult- the 19th century equivalent of "skank" or "slut". I remember a line from a Victorian Era novel describing London street walkers as "gin-soaked bints." I think Spike's use of the term is part tough-guy act and partly a reflection of his own self-loathing. It's the equivalent of his calling Buffy "my bitch."

Whether the nerd troika had anything to do with Spike's scheme, there are some dark and unresolved issues there, especially after "Dead Things." I'm sure we'll see more of them, seeing as how Joss loves those long tangled plot threads. It's interesting to note that Jonathan's character arc begins in the first season and has, at times, been used to contrast with or illustrate Buffy's.

RE, Sam's accent: she sounds like Milla Jovovich to me. An excellent choice for a partner with Riley, I thought, better than Buffy in some ways. It gave Buffy another great illustration of what a real relationship looks like, in contrast with her twisted trysts with Spike.

[supermus]

I seriously doubt Spike is actually the doctor. I mean, is he smart enough to negotiate an arms deal? Here's my theory:
Spike was getting paid to keep the eggs safe by someone who doesn't want to maintain them, or run the risk of them attacking(The NOD maybe?). That's still wrong but less wrong than selling them to hostile foriegn governments himself. Riley and Sam weren't planning on destroying the eggs. They were going to use the eggs for their own army. Notice how riley didn't think to use the grenade to kill them all?

I liked that Tara wasn't in this episode because AB has a limited number of episodes to be in, and her part in this B/S and B/R centric episode wouldn't have been big enough to waste one of her episodes on.
On B/S: I, as a BSer, am glad they broke up because that stage of their relationship was bad for both of them. Also, Buffy seemed to be trying to let Spike down gently. Notice how she said that she couldn't keep using him like this? And how she called him William? I think that might have had to do with her adressing his human side instead of his demon side. I still have big hopes for B/S in the future. This ain't over by a long shot.

------------------
Willow: Say, you all didn't happen to do a bunch of drugs, did ya?

Tara: Horsies!
Willow: Don't hit the horsies!
Buffy: We won't! (to giles) Aim for the horsies.

[j_uk]

A 'bint' is a midly offensive term for a Woman, but it's not any worse then 'bird'. I actually can't remember ever hearing it used before.

I don't think 'The Doctor' was a Dr Who reference, because the nerds would have used 'The Master' (much cooler and evil). Unless of course ME had to avoid it because they've already used that name. Was I the only one who immediately thought it refered to Joel Grey's character?

[concrete]

quote:

---

Originally posted by j_uk:
'The Doctor' Was I the only one who immediately thought it refered to Joel Grey's character?

---

No, that was my first thought as well.

------------------
It's not so much that I'm always right, it's just that I'm never wrong.....
{pecunia non olet}quote:

[Eyes Without A Face]

"This ain't over by a long shot."

Me does the happy dance. I so needed to hear that, even if that might be delusional.

The problem I see with The Doctor being Doc, is that Spike and Doc did not part on good terms last season, with Doc trying to kill Spike when William tried to protect Dawn. I doubt that they could be business associates now.

------------------
Wallpapers
Illegitimi non carborundum!

[This message has been edited by Eyes Without A Face (edited February 27, 2002).]