Location Shoot Report 3/22 - CONTAINS SPOILERS!!!

[Dr.G]

quote:

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Originally posted by Casandra:

The only problem that I have with a reset, while it would bring Tara back and keep Willow from being next season's big bad, it still gives us a glimpse of what Willow is capable of. How are we supposed to love the character the same way when we're shown that given the right provocation she'll go evil and turn against the people who love her. Sure Tara dying is a really strong provocation, and in a odd sorta way it's utterly romantic, but it still doesn't change the fact that Willow is willing to hurt everyone else she cares about because of a dark need for revenge. It's kinda scary if you ask me. It goes to show that there is definitely some darkness in Willow's heart, and that really saddens me.

Casandra

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Isn't there some darkness in everybody?
We have not even seen the episodes or circumstances which drive her over the edge. If Willow is under the influence of total grief, dark magic and a certain wish, then there is plenty of room for me to 'forgive' her, not that it is my place to forgive her anything, I just lack a better word.

Given the fact that every character on the show has displayed some darkness in them so to speak I am not giving up on the characters (Willow and Tara of course) I love the most beforehand. Actually, I think I can safely say that reset or no I won't stop loving Willow or standing up for her no matter what. I am somewhat unobjective.

[This message has been edited by Dr.G (edited March 24, 2002).]quote:

[d_moonshadow]

Thank you SO much Bob & Xita for giving us some much-needed information in these spoiler-deprived times. I am driving myself crazy to see how this turns out!

Keep up the great work

Meow

[MAJIK]

Ooooo rampagy, dark, evil Willow, OMG I just can't wait, so excited! Thanx for the info guys.

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WILLOW-
'So hard to believe such a hot mama yama came from humble geek-infested roots.'

[Xanderella]

Cassandra - Actually, I think if Willow has this darkness in her, but overcomes it because of her love and goodness, she is more impressive than if she weren't capable of evil.

[The Godfather]

But she can only work through it if she knows iy exists and is a real problem...which resetting things would render..not known..

-Shawn

[Prospero]

Longtime reader, 1st time poster... like the site a lot guys.

I think things have gone too far with the story arc to realistically allow a reset. BtVS is too cool a show to do a whole "it-was-all-a-dream"-esque story. Besides, with this we get to see Alyson run the gamut of acting emotion. I was gutted when I heard of Tara's demise and Willow's reaction, but it is in keeping. It's been touted several times but seeing Willow go after Glory when she took Tara's mind (season 5 "Tough Love")proves what Willow would do for the woman she loves. With something as serious as this, it's to be expected.

Plus... good way of using de-ratted Amy... Cannot wait to see what'll happen next.

Thanks to Bob and Xita for the location report!

[Epicurus]

Thanks, Prospero.
You're right. I can totally accept Tara's death now.
Silly me, I always forget to expect the tender, loving, responsible "girlfriend character" to die.

[Alex]

If we look further back at revenge. When Angel killed Jenny Calender it gave Buffy the motivation to kill him "I think i am finally ready", Warren is also evil so Willow is just doing what Buffy did. When Faith poisoned angel she went to kill faith to save him but i think it was also as revenge. In both instances Buffy went to seek revenge for killing people close to her. When Cordelia dumped Xander he asked amy to do a spell so she would love him and so he could reject her. OK so maybe that one isnt as bad but it just shows the things people do when they are hurting. I would like to also hope that there is no reset/reversal, i don't know how the series would go on but isn't Buffy built on the foundations that everything we do has consequences and isn't some sort of Dallas rip off as in Buffy gets out of the shower and realises she is still in high school, i think Joss et al would realise that this is a bit of a short cut to an easy resolution, just throwing that stuff out there and thanks for the location shoot tidbits!!!

[The Godfather]

I tend to think Spike is the key to no reset..he is in Africa in either 19 or 20..which means he doesn't likely get back until either late 21 or early 22..I have a hard time believing they're gonna waste our time with him getting the chip out just to reverse it and make it irrelevant..

-Shawn

[Epicurus]

I had this big ol' reply all typed out and everything and *poof* my computer became a spaz. I guess my rant wasn't meant to be. Which is probably a good thing anyway.

Now on to my point.
Angel went from Human to EvilVamp to GoodVamp to EvilVamp then back to GoodVamp. I don't see how this applys to Willow, but thanks anyway for the cheery post.

EDIT re TheGodfather's post below.
But my point is still there.

[This message has been edited by Epicurus (edited March 24, 2002).]

[The Godfather]

Angel wasn't an evil human. Liam was a ne'er do well but he wasn't by any stretch of the imagination evil..

-Shawn

[Blue77]

I don't like posts from unregistered users cause it makes you think what they have to hide ...

Strange, that most of them try to debunk all the reset theories and the hope that Tara will actually be alive at the end of the series ... a wild stab in the dark ... could they be employed by ME to post on boards such as this one and stop the end of the show being anticipated?

Well, it's just a thought, as they always seem hell-bent on the doom and gloom. I for one ignore them, and now I've said my piece will continue to ignore them!!

Please register if you have something valid to say, and only if you are a genuine W/T fan as this isn't just a BTVS board, as pointed out earlier.

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"We must have kissed a hundred times ...It was very nice." ~ Amber Benson

"After one take, [Buffy creator] Joss [Whedon] did say, 'Can we have one [kiss] that's less like you're going to sleep together in about five minutes?' " ~ Alyson Hannigan
The Body

[BigMac]

Thanks Bob & Xita keep up the good work. If this is ep21 then this will be the last one for the actor's who play the nerds. So if there is a time reversal this should happen towards the end.

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Tara:Assume Crash Positions

[xita]

You know what really rubs me the wrong way about people who come here unregistered to say, oh, BtVS is too good a show to go the cheap route of the reset button. What BtVS is showing by killing Tara and making Willow evil is proof that BtVS is not the show it used to be. It already took the cheap way of driving plot, a reset button is not above them, anymore than killing the dyke for drama.

[The Godfather]

Xita: But isn't there a better way than making everything we just saw just go away? Isn't there a more satisfying way that still accomplishes Tara alive and she and Will healing as opposed to making everyone just go back to how it was?

I'm desperately not in favor of Tara dying..in fact she may be my favorite character on the show right now aside from Xan...and I don't for even a half second believe she will stay dead..

But a reset button would just upset me to no end..it'd just all be in my head and leave me very very unsettled..

-Shawn

[Katie]

Still not looking forward to Dark Willow but the black hair/clothes are a direct contrast to the all white outfit she wore in Bargaining when she killed the deer.

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What can't we face if we're together?

[xita]

Shawn, I would hope for a better way yes. But I place no hope in ME getting it done that way. The one thing that this has taught me is that the creative juices around that joint have long dried up. If they resort to this nasty manipulation for drama, then what hope do I have that they'll make it right in a way that satisfies all. The only hope I have now is that they don't keep Tara dead.

[Epicurus]

The type of people who have nothing better to do but troll W/T shipper boards only to post "Get over it" posts will never see the point.

I understand posters here are also BTVS fans and would be disappointed in a reset. While I love the show and consider myself a BTVS fan, I will settle for any storyline bringing Tara back. Anything.
I am a W/T fan above all else. That fact will make me defend lame plot devices that might bring Tara back and argue why I am in favor of a reset/wish/AR etc.

[Web Warlock]

Preaching to the choir Xita.

I had a question or two re the shoot.

1. These pictures that everyone is talking about. Weren't those the stuntwomen? Are there pics of BlackMagic Willow?

2. Is she wearing the Black Leather Pants of Evil(tm)?

Warlock

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Web Warlock
web.warlock@attbi.com webwarlock@planetadnd.com
Author, the Netbooks of Witches and Warlocks
The Other Side: http://www.xtreme-gaming.com/theotherside/
Shadow Earth Games: http://www.rpghost.com/WebWarlock/
The FanCC: http://www.enworld.org/fancc/
--
Jesus saves. Allah forgives. Buddha shows the light.
Cthulhu thinks you'd make a nice sandwich.

[The Godfather]

Epicurus: Welcome to the world of the B/Aer. We've been told for three years to get over it while the writers make comments like.."they're soulmates". The same thing is true of W/T in every sense of the word but people don't care and are often intolerant lil'..trolls.

Xita: Oh I agree completely..I'm fully expecting the writers to take the cheap way out of everything..to in a fatal swoop alter every bit of canon the show has ever had(the chip) while meanwhile degrading(by killing Tara in such a grotesque manner) probably only the second true love romance the show has ever had.

But I want to have faith..

-Shawn

[maudmac]

Y'know, I do think the show is too good to use a cheap reset. (Please note the emphasis on "cheap".) Bobby dreaming a whole season of Dallas is a cheap reset. Soap operas bringing people back to play their own twins is a cheap reset. There are tons of other examples (and this isn't the place to cite all of them).

However, unless ME is floundering with no one at the helm - or with someone who's not helm-worthy in charge - this show is above a cheap reset. (And let's please not get into the Marti vs. Joss stuff.)

BTVS doesn't just pull things out of it's ass. Just look at all the events that have occurred over the years and how many of them, in hindsight, were clearly foreshadowed. A lot of the most recent spoilery speculation has involved trying to find items, comments, events, etc., that we've seen so far that will turn out to have been foreshadowing. And there's plenty to chew on, what with all the time/perception-distorting elements running around.

It may be that ME is miscalculating the loyalty of its fanbase by going down this trainwrecky road in the first place. It may cost them unspoiled viewers who are likely to see what's been a dark and depressing season getting even darker and more depressing. It may cost them spoiled viewers who are unwilling to watch while their favorite characters and ships are run through the mother of all ringers. And some people will be so pissed off that a reset/reversal/whatever won't matter; the damage will have been done.

But all that is in the future. Based on what we've seen of this show up until now, I think whatever reset occurs will not be cheap. It will probably be bittersweet and have all kinds of unforeseen angsty consequences that will make for compelling drama, but it won't be cheap. Just like bringing Buffy back. That was a reset of sorts, but it wasn't cheap or stupid or lame, even though, in less talented hands than ME, it could have been.

I'm trusting in ME's collective talent and intelligence to do this wisely unless/until they show me they don't deserve it.

[Scarecrow]

I agree, the reset won't be cheap.

I feel this ending is would give us a look into what WOULD happen if they didin't grow up. By Ep19 they have and, as i said before, noly through the actions of those who don't does this occur.

The seasons plotlines have ended around 18 / 19; what the next episodes show us is the horrors thta would of occured had out hero's not been strong enough. And the only reaosn it happens is duie to warren being an evil bastard. Which make shim the biggest of the big bads in my books.

I'll trust in ME until thyey rip my herat out and destroy my faith.

Scarecrow.

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Trust In Joss

"Liberate tutemet ex inferis"

"Me and Willow always know how to find each other"

"Black mircles, dark wonders, another life of unknown pleasures"

"There are some corners of the Universe that have bred the most terrible things, things that stand against everything we believe in. They must be fought"

[The Godfather]

But they won't have grown up if they didn't get to actually what could and would happen...then they just go on like nothing has changed..

And again, because we now know what they could and would do if that circumstance presented itself..would we demand that steps be taken?

-Shawn

[Scarecrow]

But they have learnt. Wrecked , Smashjed and all those eps were them learning. That was them learning to growe up. What happens next is simply US seeing the alternative path.

And its a path that only occured under the specific circumstances; Willow only just getitng over magic, only just getting Tara and her being killed by Warren. Events like this are unlikely to happen again so once the reset occurs they are effectivly 'safe' from this future.

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Trust In Joss

"Liberate tutemet ex inferis"

"Me and Willow always know how to find each other"

"Black mircles, dark wonders, another life of unknown pleasures"

"There are some corners of the Universe that have bred the most terrible things, things that stand against everything we believe in. They must be fought"

[The Godfather]

But in the world they live in..they're are extremely likely to happen. This will be the second time that Tara's life was put in jeopardy.

And if these acts could happen..then neither Wrecked nor Smashed taught them anything. We already know that it didn't teach Buff anything and Will still relapsed..

It has to be MORE proactive and that means understand how horrible things can be..and what the unimaginable consequences of it are..

-Shawn

[Scarecrow]

But Buffy has excepted her life and Willow has control of herself and has Tara back...

It is only the timing and these circumstances that lead to these specific events. If tara, in a years times, was to die natually Wil wouldn't go dark IMO or even if she was killed some other way.. its the timing and the set up of situations.

The last episodes should be showing a "what if the good guys didn't win" scenario before resetting back to the real events.

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Trust In Joss

"Liberate tutemet ex inferis"

"Me and Willow always know how to find each other"

"Black mircles, dark wonders, another life of unknown pleasures"

"There are some corners of the Universe that have bred the most terrible things, things that stand against everything we believe in. They must be fought"

[The Godfather]

That seems weak to me..they don't live in a normal world and the chance of any of them dying naturally seems to me to always be slim to none.

Some vampire could kill Tara tommorow if she tripped walking home. That would likely also send Will off until the issues themselves are dealt with..

-Shawn

[Scarecrow]

I think we should just agree to disagree.

I so can't wait till the seasons over.. so we'll finaly know one way of the other!

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Trust In Joss

"Liberate tutemet ex inferis"

"Me and Willow always know how to find each other"

"Black mircles, dark wonders, another life of unknown pleasures"

"There are some corners of the Universe that have bred the most terrible things, things that stand against everything we believe in. They must be fought"

[The Godfather]

I will admit that if it's something so cheap as being a five episode long WishVerse..I will be severely disgruntled..

Unless of course everyone remembers what happened and what occured...that way the proper measures can be undertaken..

-Shawn

[Wiccagrrl]

Shawn, I'm with ya on this. I want them to bring Tara back, but dammit...if they're gonna do this I hope they do it right. I think the gang is gonna need to remember what happened. And I suppose that they could do that and still tie it into Anya's powers.

Edited to add: That doesn't mean I won't be jumping up and down with joy if they bring her back and it *is* lame...but I'll be far, far happier if they can make this work well.

[This message has been edited by Wiccagrrl (edited March 24, 2002).]