Discussion – S6E13 – “Dead Things”

[ArtemisEcstasy]

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Artemis I think the writers are aware that Willow's problem is her insecurity and that Willow herself addressed that in Wrecked and I am certain that Willow's crisis towards the end of the season will deal with that. The addiction is a symptom of that not the cause. The writers know this

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Yeah xita, I was glad to see that it was brought up in the end of "Wrecked". And I'm trying not to make sweeping judgments about the story arc yet since I know that the Jossverse is all about sending things in a completely new direction when you least expect it.

I doubt I will ever really be crazy with the "addict" storyline, especially since it got very anvilicious. But, if they get past the shakes and "32 days spell-free" prattle and into the deeper issues that caused Willow to want to avoid conflict so much that she attempted to wipe Tara's mind twice, I'll be ok.

Since I'm no longer a spoiler ho, I guess I'll just have to wait and see, and hope for the best.

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i feel her eyes watching me
from behind the curtain of her hair
and she says i'm sorry
i didn't mean to stare
-Ani DiFrancoquote:

[Zahir]

I thought this an excellent episode, easily deserving four out of five stars. What impressed me most about it was how blended the different elements were, how they all commented on each other and in anything but a fell-good-here's-a-simple-answer kind of way.

For example, the way the Legion of Dorkness wanted to create a sex slave for themselves. Okay, haven't all the Scoobies done something like this themselves, treating significant others as objects? Xander having a love spell aimed at Cordy, for example? Willow mind-raping Tara? Right now, that's what (imo) Buffy is doing (some) with Spike, and a little bit what she did with Riley. But--and here's the BIG diff--they learn better! Making stupid, immature mistakes is part of growing up. Not learning from them and repeating them over and over is called NOT growing up (which btw gives me some hope for Johnathan, but makes me fear Andrew).

A few other observations:

--The Scoobies need a parental, nurturing person in their midst. The two eldest of them, Spike and Anya, aren't up to that for personality reasons and because they're too "young" in their new selves. As last night's ep made crystal clear, the one person they need most is Tara. In most ways, she's the wisest of them all (and methinks Xander/Anya will need her much before season's end). Things aren't going to start getting really right until she's back. And given how much Willow and Tara obviously still love each other, its only a matter of time.
--Whatever else you say about Spike, which with perfect justice includes plenty of bad things, his feelings for Buffy are real. Unlike Warren, for example, he doesn't want a robot (hey, he had one and got tired of her real quick). He wants Buffy as she is, and is literally willing to get beat up for his troubles without fighting back. I'm not sure how much he realizes he's still changing, any more than she does (about either of them) but it makes for a fascinating and real dynamic.
--Poor Dawn! One of the truths of our (and any) age: Puberty sucks! But its interesting how she's picking up on all sorts of stuff others aren't. Methinks that will be the thing that keeps everything from blowing up too badly, the fact that she (like Buffy) come through in the end, no matter what errors or issue trip them up along the way. That's why we call'em heroes, folks...

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"O let my name be in the Book of Love.
If it be there, I care not of
That other book Above...
Strike it out! Or write it in anew.
But let it be in the Book of Love!"
--Omar Kyam

[ashling]

Just wanted to delurk to say that I loved the episode. It was great to see Tara back!
I have a question about last scene when Tara & Buffy are talking about Spike. Just before Buffy puts her head in Tara's lap, she asks Tara not to forgive her & I swear that she calls Tara "Dad". I have re-played the tape a couple times & I hear it the same way everytime. Did anyone else hear that?

[mariacomet]

Just wanted to point out some twisted psychology.

The perception of doing something 'wrong' is usually up to the individual. For instance, I know speeding is wrong because the law says it is, however deep down, I don't BELIEVE it's wrong since I don't believe it hurts anyone else, as long as I am careful.

The point is that most people when they do something 'wrong' either don't REALLY believe it's wrong by their own standards or justify it to themselves so that it seems 'right.' AKA - I know speeding is wrong, but I really need to get to work on time or I'll get in trouble. These are special circumstances, so I'll just do it this once.

Getting this convoluted tangent back to Warren - Warren's reaction to being with Katrina was "I missed you and you never should have left me." It's possible that in Warren's mindset, it was 'right' that he and Katrina be together, no matter what he had to do to accomplish this. In his eyes, they belonged together. I'm not going to debate that Warren's idea of love isn't sick, twisted and selfish - but I don't believe his ONLY motivation was sex. In HIS eyes, he loved and needed Katrina. Again, his definition of the word 'love' is digusting, but I do believe he means it when he says it.

I don't think Warren ever intended to share his new slave with anyone. I believe he uses Jonathan and Andrew to help him achieve his own ends. Warren is using them. The irony is that Warren HAD a slave - the buffybot and he grew tired of her because she was too compliant. Then he turned Katrina into a human version of the Bot.

And then there's Willow...

I'm going to compare what Warren did to attempted rape and what Willow did to theft. Willow stole something from someone that loved and trusted her. It was a violation. But Willow did not compromise the whole of Tara's will as much as she manipulated a portion of it. In both cases someone was trying to fix someone else to their liking. But Willow did not force her will on Tara. Instead she stole something that caused Tara to make different decisions.

The scary part is the serious line that Willow crossed in her own morality at that point. She had SEEN Tara go through the Glory situation and yet she cast the 'forget' spell casually. At the time, she didn't see anything 'wrong' with it because in her mind it was not the natural state of order for Tara to be angry with her. And then...SHE DID IT AGAIN. Even after UNDERSTANDING that what she had done was such a severe violation. She tried to do it not only to Tara but to Buffy as well.

It goes back to the "That may have been how it started but you are fixing things to your liking now, including me," ideal. Willow of old did always try and use magic to help people, but this season I believe Willow had grown both thoughtless, arrogant and selfish with her magic use.

The scene with the club comes back to me. Willow and Amy were manipulating people's will all over the place, and never once did Willow seem to consider that any of that might be wrong.

How far a jump from selfish and arrogant is it to evil? We consider Adolph Hilter an evil man, but in his eyes he was trying to aid the german people. And at the time, he DID aid Germany into becoming a powerful world power and into a more stable economy. He did it because he believed that Germans being superior was 'right.'

It's a bit off the wall comparing our Willow and Hilter, so I am going to stop that. I was only using Hilter to get back to the idea of how people can convince themselves that what they are doing is 'right.'

Assume that Willow had never stopped using magic and it's now one year later. Let's say that she is in danger of totally losing Tara. Tara is leaving Sunnydale or Tara is dating someone - how far would Willow go to make things 'right' again? Especially if Willow believed - as we all do - that Tara belongs with her?

I think Warren is something Willow might have become. They both are techno nerdy, both are powerful, but are intelligent and have a strong will. They both seem to need acceptance.

But Willow was not so far gone that when Dawn got hurt she didn't accept responsibilty. Warren IS too far gone.

Certainly before Dawn got hurt, Willow was far from stopping her pursuit of the dark arts. Katrina's death could have been the Trio's wakeup call much like Dawn's accident was for Willow. It wasn't. (Except maybe for Jonathan) As things stand right now, there are clearly fundemental difference between Warren and Willow. But power is seductive and there is no doubt that Willow was/is very powerful and becoming more so. I wonder if the accident with Dawn hadn't happened, how many lines would Willow have eventually crossed in the name of 'fixing' things. I believe that repeated use of black magic in that way, would have eventually changed the core of who Willow is. I have to admit that I am glad I didn't have to see that journey.

[Popje]

Warren's a sick pup. Notice how immediately after Katrina died he said "we have to get rid of it?" It? That was "ouch" to the already objectifying "yes master" Katrina kept on saying. But I'm not going to let the other two off the hook. Warren was right in saying the others were cullpable in her death. They didn't see anything wrong with making a woman a "sex slave". As for the most disturbing aspect - for me it had to be Buffy's beating up of Spike. She keeps on saying "he's without a soul", "he can't love" but it's Buffy's actions that show a lack of those things, not Spike's. It's as if she's objectifying Spike, making him her "sex slave". That might be a bit harsh, but Buffy backs this up by saying to Tara it's wrong to be using Spike as her emotional punching-bag.

As for W/T. Sigh. I did like Willow's all so subtle "we miss her", which I think she was directing to Tara as "I miss you". And her "if you are checking up on me" (translation - please be checking up on me). All nice and awkward.
And Tara's talk with Buffy at the start of the show has still got me thinking Tara's had past experience in re-animating the dead. The way she so venemently denied Buffy had come back "wrong". And her stutter returned at that moment.
Oh well. Dark ep, but more for what it's revealing about Buffy's choice of direction for her personal growth. Also I didn't like poor Dawnie, feeling yet again abandoned by her big sis.

[Lonewolf]

I just wanted to add my comments on last night's episode.

I missed Tara sooooooo much, hey did anybody notice when Willow and Tara were talking about Buffy not being around so much and Willow said that they miss her and Tara said that shes sure she feels the same way, just lovely.

The Troika are starting to freak me out, I never thought that they would go this far, to actually kill someone. This will not end well for them.

The last scene with Buffy and Tara was really sad to watch, I'm really glad that Tara was there to comfort her.

Lonewolf

[AutumnT]

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Originally posted by xita:
I never saw Willow as the potential big bad She just doesn't have it in her.

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Agreed. What I think confuses people is the fact that Joss lets every hero in his tale have flaws. Big ones. It makes them more human. There is not a character on BtVS that has not made some big mistakes. Because people make big mistakes. But the core in these characters is good. I often think that Willow and Xander are bigger heroes than Buffy because they are not the "chosen one" and yet they have chosen to give up their lives to fight the good fight. Because despite their flaws they are really good people. They chose their destiny instead of having it handed to them. I love that they make mistakes. I love that they overcome them. I even love that the villians on Buffy are given shades of humanity because it makes it so interesting.

Willow could never be the big bad. But she could be and has been bad. And she will always recover because of her heart.

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Autumn

I'm just taking stuff and not paying for it. In what twisted dictionary is that stealing?

[This message has been edited by AutumnT (edited February 06, 2002).]quote:

[EricAlan69]

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Originally posted by ArtemisEcstasy:
I doubt I will ever really be crazy with the "addict" storyline, especially since it got very anvilicious. But, if they get past the shakes and "32 days spell-free" prattle and into the deeper issues that caused Willow to want to avoid conflict so much that she attempted to wipe Tara's mind twice, I'll be ok.

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I realize what you're saying with this, but I guess because a.)for better or for worse, the metaphor being used for Willow's "issues" is addiction, and b.)I'm a recovering alcoholic, so it sort of strikes close to home, but I've seen this attitude on some of the other boards lately, too, mostly from the anti-Willow contingent, and it's bothersome because, frankly, if I could have just gotten past the shakes, and the counting of days, and jumped right into untangling the core issues of self-worth that are the nest of the disease of addiction....I probably wouldn't be an alcoholic at all.

I guess what really bothers me is that for some metaphors (like the use of magic to represent sexual joy and freedom between W. and T.), we're the only ones who really pick up on it and appreciate it, but for other, less palatable metaphors, it becomes excess baggage.

(Please don't think that was an attack, 'cause I'd never do that- I just wanted to mention that fact because when I express a difference of opinion (especially here), I always want to be clear that that is *all* it is! :-)

love and witchie-chix,

e.

[This message has been edited by EricAlan69 (edited February 06, 2002).]quote:

[BBOvenGuy]

Wow... so much to respond to...

Here we go:

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Originally posted by Shaniezak:
Drawing another marked contrast between the Scoobies in general and the Lame Gunmen, we have Buffy's reaction to her mistaken belief that she killed Katrina, and we have the LG's reaction to actually having done so.

Buffy was ready right away to go to the police and own up to her (supposed) actions, whereas the LG opted for the coverup method.

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Yes, and lookie lookie there was Spike taking the same attitude as the Lame Gunmen - get rid of the body. What does that say about him? Hmmmmm...?

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Originally posted by Italiangirl:
Taraknees.

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There was also TaraEar poking out through her hair in that way I've always loved.

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Originallyy posted by SeanGaffney:
My eye starts to twitch when I see all the people who are annoyed that Willow is recovering. How boring, they cry! She would make an excellent big bad, they whine. I find it amazing that these aren't Willow-haters, but fans of her character. What's the basis for wanting her to get evil? They're the same people who said that the scene between Willow and Tara in Dead Things was a sign that they'd broken up for good. Were we even watching the same scene?

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With "fans" like Willow has on the USEnet, she doesn't need enemies.

The regular posters on the USEnet seem to have developed this consensus opinion about Willow that has very little basis in reality. They see her as power mad and completely miss her insecurity. They saw the dark magic Willow was getting into as a sign that she wanted more power, not that she was trying to feel worthy of love. When "Wrecked" came along, they felt betrayed, because the logical outcome for their version of Willow would have been for her to become the Big Bad. This kind of thinking has been there since at least the end of last season, and I still say it's where Herc got his "Willow becomes the Big Bad" spoiler last summer.

I also saw the conclusion drawn on the USEnet that Tara was "brushing off" Willow when they saw each other outside the Magic Box. That's just part of the group-mind Willow hatred that's going on. Willow's not going to be the Big Bad? Okay, then we'll punish her for this "lame" addiction story by refusing to believe Tara's still interested in her. That's all it is. I imagine will see a lot more whining about the "lameness" of Willow and Tara getting back together once that finally happens.

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Remember the Kitten Board Mantra: "Joss is nuts about Tara, Willow/Tara and Amber!"
(...and Marti's rather fond of them, too...)

"You haven’t seen the last of Tara and Willow, that’s for sure." - Marti Noxon, March 2002 edition of Dreamwatchquote:quote:quote:

[Scout]

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Originally posted by AutumnT:

Willow could never be the big bad. But she could be and has been bad. And she will always recover because of her heart.

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Very true. It's so important to separate the person from their behavior. While Willow's behavior was undeniably bad, her heart - who she really is - has never changed, and her heart is what Tara fell in love with. As Tara said, you can love someone very much, but sometimes things get in the way. Willow's behavior got in the way of their love, but now that Willow is addressing that behavior (and hopefully the underlying causes), they can begin to rediscover their relationship.

However, as someone else said, I just wish the process wasn't so damn slow!

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[SiWangMu]

Sigh, I never run out of things to say and think about this episode... there's a wealth just in the Troika (that kinda surprised me). Every line, every look in the process of these three very, very stupid humans was completely engaging. One of the things that struck me most out of the entire episode (and I hope I'm remembering this correctly) was right after Warren hit Katrina, when he tried to say "Her neck snapped" and I believe it was Jonothan who shook his head and basically was like "no, Warren, you killed her." I mean, not out open like that, but, personally, in a episode filled with very little hope for any of them I consider that denial one of the bravest things Jonothan has ever done. Actually challenging Warren might have been better, but dear lord, he was scaring MY socks off, and I certainly wasn't in the room with him, recent cold-blooded murderer and all. The death wasn't accidental, I think, and that's wherein Andrew and Jonathan differed from Warren, at least that much. They share blame, but honestly it was Warren who, in trying not just to stop Katrina's exit but punish her, keep her by force, and all kinds of twisted things I don't want to think about-- I was about to say exactly the action he took and my stomach turned so I'm going with the bizarrely more innocent "killed Katrina."

Edited to say: Huh, I started a new page...again. I hope nobody minds me with the noisy.

[This message has been edited by SiWangMu (edited February 06, 2002).]

[kitten scout]

It feels like we're over the hump. Hopefully W/T will be fully back together soon. It was great to see Tara bonding with Buffy. Buffy really needs a friend like Tara.

[GODisTigger]

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Originally posted by kitten scout:
It feels like we're over the hump.

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And hopefully soon, we'll be over the humping.

D
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[Kalita]

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Originally posted by GODisTigger:

And hopefully soon, we'll be over the humping.

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Okay, I got a good chuckle out of that.

I needed it, too. Thanks. quote:

[GODisTigger]

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Originally posted by Kalita:
Okay, I got a good chuckle out of that.

I needed it, too. Thanks.

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Anytime.

D

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[Junkyard Dog]

Jinkies, there's a lot to talk about in this eppie. I thought the Tara/Willow scene was very, very sweet. They *SO* obviously miss one another. Apart from that, man, that was one dark, grim episode. But very well done. I had my doubts, but they pulled it off.

Watching the balcony scene, I found myself thinking, "Well, well. That Spike is one silver-tongued honey dripper!" There was a really surreal quality to it that made me wonder if it was actually happening, or if Buffy was just imagining it, thinking about how her friends would recoil from her if they only knew her little secret. Spike isn't stupid, and I think he'd be a little wary of pushing his luck that far. I also wasn't sure if Spike was really in her bedroom later on or if that was part of Buffy's nightmare.

And the demons warping time just due to their very prescense was an interesting gimmick. I wouldn't mind seeing these guys show up again as future villains. (Well, not *THESE* guys, as Buffy & Spike killed them all. Others like them, if a good plot can be found for them.)

All of the above (except the Willow & Tara stuff) made for a much more surreal eppie than I was expecting. Warren supplied the creepiness. I'd say he's definitely graduated from amoral sociopath to full-fledged psycho. I think he honestly did have feelings for Katrina; However self-centered & selfishly motivated, I think they were genuine. Which makes what he did to her all the more appalling. (This has been pointed out already by others here, but I was one of those who winced when he didn't wait so much as a heartbeat before referring to Katrina's body as "it".) Since his kind has the ability to self-justify themselves out of any responsibility for anything, it wouldn't surprise me if he were to add this to his list of grudges against Buffy. I'll bet he blames her for the split between Katrina & himself, and it would be consistent if he held it against Buffy because that lead to him being "forced" to kill his ex-girlfriend. Buffy had better watch out.

And so should Jonathan. One of the great cliches of super-villain team-ups is the expected double cross. If Warren finds another magic practitioner, espcially one who shares his untroubled-by-scruples worldview (Amy, for instance), he won't need his wimpy "let's not hurt anyone" sidekicks anymore. If Jonathan attempts to right things by going either to the Scooby Gang or the police, or if he just tries to bail by skipping town, I don't doubt Warren would kill him in an instant.

I can buy that Jonatahn & Andrew were so lost in their adolescent fantasy that they didn't realize what they doing until Katrina pointed it out to them in no uncertain terms. That's what the BTVS creative team is asking us to believe (along with certain other S6 plot points that don't seem to please many people), so what the hell. I thought Danny Strong gave a kick-ass performance in Dead Things, perfectly conveying dawning horror and fear along with his disgust/anger at himself and the other 2. The Troika obviously can't be used for comic relief anymore (to put it mildly), and I'm sorry about that, but it'll be interesting to see how things play out for them before the end of the season.

[BBOvenGuy]

A couple more points that have occurred to me...

The parallel between Spike and Warren in this episode goes even farther than their identical solutions for what to do about Katrina (i.e. get rid of the body). The way Spike treats Buffy in the Bronze is pretty much in tune with the way Warren treats Katrina. Each one of them uses his powers of influence (so to speak) in order to tell their respective women, "You're not who you say you are. You belong to me." It doesn't say very nice things about who and what Spike is.

Also, now that Tara has thoroughly researched the spell that brought Buffy back, do you think it's safe to say that she knows Willow had to go out and kill the deer? I don't think it's ever going to come up, because Tara didn't seem affected by it at all.

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Remember the Kitten Board Mantra: "Joss is nuts about Tara, Willow/Tara and Amber!"
(...and Marti's rather fond of them, too...)

"I have this sudden urge to dedicate my productive cooperation."

[EricAlan69]

Bob-

I think that- as part of the continuing thread this season to make everyone's character less black and white, and more grey- the opening/pre-credit scene with Spike and Buffy was used to illustrate just the opposite point, too: that he truly loves Buffy, in his way, and that she's not exactly treating him too well, regardless (as hammered home by Buffy's breakdown with Tara).

e.

[BBOvenGuy]

Well, to a vampire, "love" is all about domination, control and ownership. You could certainly see that in the Spike/Dru/Angelus triangle during Season 2, and Darla pretty much told Lindsay the same thing.

I don't doubt that Spike loves Buffy, but his definition of "love" is not one Buffy would be interested in, and I don't think it's one the writers are trying to highlight as an example to others.

[Kalita]

On a related note, Buffy wailing on Spike in the alley ain't going to do much to turn him off.

I'm not sure what she will eventually do to break this up, but it won't be violent and it won't be on Spike's terms. I think I'll enjoy seeing it, whatever it is...

[ArtemisEcstasy]

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Originally posted by EricAlan69:
I realize what you're saying with this, but I guess because a.)for better or for worse, the metaphor being used for Willow's "issues" is addiction, and b.)I'm a recovering alcoholic, so it sort of strikes close to home, but I've seen this attitude on some of the other boards lately, too, mostly from the anti-Willow contingent, and it's bothersome because, frankly, if I could have just gotten past the shakes, and the counting of days, and jumped right into untangling the core issues of self-worth that are the nest of the disease of addiction....I probably wouldn't be an alcoholic at all.

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I'm not an addict myself, but I've had many people close to me deal with alcoholism/addiction and have some idea of what recovery is like, so I see where you're coming from.

However, I sort of made this point on another board. IMO, There is a difference between what would make sense in real life, and what would make sense in a story being told to entertain. IRL, obviously in the beginning the most important thing an addict needs to do is get through the day without using. And then, once they're stable enough in their recovery, they can start dealing with the big issues. However, IMO, watching the withdrawal isn't making for interesting TV. I realize that many people disagree with me.

I guess that's sort of an overall complaint that I've had with the show lately, they've somewhat drifted away from the heavily metaphoric high school years into a more realistic portrayal of life, which isn't what drew me to the show originally.

And don't worry, I didn't take that post as an attack. I realize that people are gonna disagree with me, especially about this. And I also want to say that I'm not attacking anyone who likes this storyline, I'm just pointing out why I personally don't.

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Originally posted by BBOvenGuy:
There was also TaraEar poking out through her hair in that way I've always loved.

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Oh yess! I have such a thing for TaraEar, and Tarajawline too, although it doesn't sound particularly sexy when said that way, heh.

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Originally posted by BBOvenGuy:
A couple more points that have occurred to me...

The parallel between Spike and Warren in this episode goes even farther than their identical solutions for what to do about Katrina (i.e. get rid of the body). The way Spike treats Buffy in the Bronze is pretty much in tune with the way Warren treats Katrina. Each one of them uses his powers of influence (so to speak) in order to tell their respective women, "You're not who you say you are. You belong to me." It doesn't say very nice things about who and what Spike is.

Also, now that Tara has thoroughly researched the spell that brought Buffy back, do you think it's safe to say that she knows Willow had to go out and kill the deer? I don't think it's ever going to come up, because Tara didn't seem affected by it at all.

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Thank you so much for drawing that parallel between Warren and Spike. At the core Spike is still very much a sociopathic demon.

And about the resurrection spell, someone on another board made the interesting speculation that maybe Tara has actually had close up experience with resurrection before they brought Buffy back. Which I find a very interesting possibility. I also just checked the script for "Bargaining" and she never says that she doesn't know what "vino de madre" is, just that she didn't know that Will needed to get it on the black market. It may be totally offbase, but it's something to chew on.

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i feel her eyes watching me
from behind the curtain of her hair
and she says i'm sorry
i didn't mean to stare
-Ani DiFranco

[This message has been edited by ArtemisEcstasy (edited February 06, 2002).]quote:quote:quote:

[GODisTigger]

quote:

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Originally posted by BBOvenGuy:
Also, now that Tara has thoroughly researched the spell that brought Buffy back, do you think it's safe to say that she knows Willow had to go out and kill the deer? I don't think it's ever going to come up, because Tara didn't seem affected by it at all.

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Willow told Tara that she got the Vino de Madre off the black market, didn't she? Unless the spell gave the specific instructions that the caster had to kill the deer themself, Tara most likely just accepted what Willow said.

edited to add: Oops, guess I should have read to the end of the thread before posting.

D

[This message has been edited by GODisTigger (edited February 06, 2002).]quote:

[SiWangMu]

The parallels between Spike and Warren were very well drawn!

But I can't help but wonder.... doesn't the limited parallel between them lead to somewhat the same conclusion as the Warren/Willow parallels? Namely that that difference is that Spike doesn't have it in him to really try to own Buffy the way Warren did (w/ Katrina). (It's been shown he doesn't want a robot). His first instinct is to use his pain to protect Buffy (I believe that's how he saw the alley encounter), something Warren can't conceive of. It isn't pure, it probably isn't "good," but if the conclusion we're supposed to draw is that Warren is the monster even SPIKE can't be? That says fascinating things about them both.

To me, the "get rid of the body" as an exact parallel solution doesn't make sense. It's the exact same solution, but the problem it's a solution for is different.

Warren's problem: Cold-blooded and violent if not premeditated murder.... hmm, what do I do with the body so I can avoid responsibility? Warren's Solution: Get rid of the body.

Spike's problem (Spike's take on Buffy's problem?): Bad thing happened. Now, Buffy's going to forfeit her life unjustly (she can't convince the police that it was an accident, most likely, unjust as it is). She does the world more good by staying in it and would accomplish nothing (even justice) by turning herself in.
Spike's solution: get rid of the body.

You can refer to them as "identical solutions," but to me that is simply a semantic argument. I don't see how fundamentally they are the same (note: not "similar." I see how they are similar.).

[Junkyard Dog]

Actually, I felt pretty sorry for poor old Spike in DT. He obviously meant well, and I think he understands perfectly well why Buffy would consider his attempts at a coverup to be inappropriate (he's not stupid), but it still displayed how his basic governing principles just aren't the same as a human being's. (Well, most humans. He certainly looks like a Prince compared to Warren.) He was going to come off looking "bad" to Buffy no matter what he did in this situation.

[Shaniezak]

Here's an interesting bit of metaphorical probability . . .

For the LG, getting rid of Katrina's body was a means of dissociating themselves with blame . . . trying to deny responsibility for her death. (Them's key words in this season of "Oh, Grow Up.")

For Buffy, turning herself in to the police with Katrina's body as evidence was her shouldering the responsibility and consequences of what she believed she'd done.

For Spike, who tried to get rid of Katrina's body so Buffy couldn't turn herself in, only to have the body turn up in the river near the cemetery . . . Perhaps this represents the innate goodness Buffy possesses stubbornly surfacing, despite his attempts?

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"And if there is a way to find you, I will find you . . . but threads that are golden don't break easily . . ." -- Tori Amos

"Love is lightning, love is ice; it only strikes the lucky twice--once so you will know the price, and once for crazy faith . . ." -- Alison Krauss and Union Station

[Puff]

Initial thought...Dear God Willow looked good

I still can't like the lame gunmen and I think they had too much screen time, but then at least the group dynamics have progressed.

It was bittersweet to see the Willow/Tara interaction and it kills me to be spoiler free. I hate not knowing what is going to happen with them. Even though it is clearly visible that they still care deeply for each other. Oh well time will tell.

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'The cold and ruthless sea tossed the lovers' into the starry black night. together they fall, together they sleep. forever.. forever.. *whisper*forever..the cold and ruthless sea...' By Sweets

[AutumnT]

Now on to fashion.

Sure the red number put the bad wardrobe back in the board name. But. There was worse.

What in the frilly heck was that hideous green thingee they have Buffy wearing that was all about brownies and camp? It. hurt. my. eyes.

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Autumn

I'm just taking stuff and not paying for it. In what twisted dictionary is that stealing?

[ArtemisEcstasy]

Hey, I liked Tara's red outfit. It filled my two big fashion requirements, it was red, and it was comfortable. (at least it looked comfortable.) Maybe that's why my sister thinks I should be banned from clothes shopping huh?

Now about that green thing, I totally agree. What the heck was that? It was some weird sort of combination between off-the-shoulder shirt and camp tee.

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i feel her eyes watching me
from behind the curtain of her hair
and she says i'm sorry
i didn't mean to stare
-Ani DiFranco

[SiWangMu]

Actually, I thought the green thing oddly cute, even if it did make my brain hurt... but that black... thingie at the end on Buffy? Another story. I think the phrase "frilly heck" is particularly appropriate for this one. Luckily I was distracted by Tara's great boots/skirt and my stupid teary eyes.

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"I think this line's mostly filler"

[This message has been edited by SiWangMu (edited February 06, 2002).]

[MyStrangersFace]

Hello. I'm new here and delurking to post my thoughts about "Dead Things". I'm rather new to the whole Buffy experience. Over the past few weeks I've begun watching the first run episodes, while trying to catch up on past history with FX.

I'm going through a kind of culture shock. The current gang is like a shadow of the gang of the 2nd/3rd seasons (that I'm used to seeing on FX). In earlier seasons, it seemed like then showed revolved around Xander, Buffy, Willow (& their SOs) taking on some kind of evil, with Giles faithfully guiding them along. In the present 6th season, Giles is gone and the gang seems to be coming undone. Sad is the feeling that I'm left with after last night's episode. It doesn't feel like Buffy. They're not fighting external evils, they're all fighting with their own internal demons.

Don't get me wrong, I thought it was a good episode. Some of the acting was excellent. But there was a melancholy that floated through the entire story. I don't what's going on with Buffy & Spike but I hate what it's doing to Buffy. I realize Dawn has experienced a lot of loss but I hate that she's taking it all out on Buffy. I hate that Willow and Tara are apart when they so obviously want to be together. And speaking of Willow, a Willow without magic somehow seems incomplete. It's like everything is downside up. I'm just wondering what we'll be left with at the end of the season. I'll probably stick it out until then but I'm really hoping it gets better, and gets back to the Buffy of old.

MyStrangersFace