And in this week episode, Tara! God, that's good to be a kitten!
Ange.
by Ange » Mon Feb 04, 2002 1:45 am
And in this week episode, Tara! God, that's good to be a kitten!
Ange.
by xita » Mon Feb 04, 2002 1:48 am
w/t scene!
[This message has been edited by xita (edited February 04, 2002).]
by Epicurus » Mon Feb 04, 2002 5:21 am
He must have nothing better to do, he worships "The Wand"'s ass but takes a dig at AnGel X?
hmmm
by tommo » Mon Feb 04, 2002 5:28 am
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"Bitter, party of one. Bitter, party of one." she muttered... ~ Four Months After by Capt. Murdock
by Ange » Mon Feb 04, 2002 6:34 am
http://www.leoffonline.com/wildfeed.html
A lot of Tara moment coming!
Ange
quote:Wildfeed for Buffy the Vampire Slayer
"Dead Things"
Episode Number: 6ABB13
Running time: 43:32Previously: Buffy's return from the grave, Spike confronting Buffy on her wrongness,
Buffy meets tres geeks, Dawn's recent anger with Buffy, Tara leaving Willow, Spike
telling Buffy he loves her.In Spike's crypt, we see a mess! Furniture and items tossed about as the sounds of
"mad" love can be heard in the background. Buffy and Spike are seen literally UNDER
a rug, having just finished an intense lovemaking session. They start talking back and
fourth about his decorating, and her re-doing her room (as the New Kids on the Block
posters are dating her). Just then, they realize that they're having a conversation! Talk
turns to the sexual escapades before Spike unintentionally insults her by calling her an
"animal." She is hurt and starts searching for her underwear when Spike asks what this
"thing" they have is. Buffy says it's just what it is, sex. Spike then asks the big one: "Do
you even like me?" "Sometimes." is all Buffy can answer. Spike then asks her if he
trusts him as he pulls out some handcuffs. "Never" she says seriously.Sorting through some LP's, Andrew and Jonathan are bickering about being forced to
"share" their new lair with the others. The two start to push, then punch and wrestle
each other as Warren "interrupts" them from a nearby workbench, saying the "Cerebral
Inhibitor" is ready. The two stop fighting and trot up eagerly, with Andrew pulling out a
baggie with the last key ingredient: the musk gland of a demon which SMELLS!
Jonathan takes the gland, says some magical Latin spell, and PAF! The gland
disappears from his hand and a small burst of light enters a silver ball sitting on the
workbench. Warren takes the ball, announcing "the Cerebral Dampener is on-line!"
Now they can make any woman their willing sex slave "and I know just where to
start"Opening credits: nothing new.
Behind the counter of the Doublemeat Palace, Buffy serves up someone's order as
Tara walks up, saying she got there as quick as she could. Buffy tells her co-worker
she's taking a break as the two friends go into the back room.Tara sits at a table as Buffy very seriously tells her something's wrong. Tara instantly
thinks that Willow is in trouble again, wondering if she's hurt someone? Buffy says it's
not about Willow, which concerns Tara. Buffy says that Willow is ok, but she wants to
talk about Spike. Buffy tells Tara that Spike can hurt her without his head exploding, but
it only works with her, not other humans. Buffy says that she thinks she came back
"wrong" and wants Tara to investigate the spell that was used to bring her back.A bar is seen on a computer monitor back at the supervillians new lair. Andrew and
Jonathan watch Warren's "tie cam" and communicate with him with a hidden earpiece
and mic. Warren pans the tie camera around, letting the two other geeks see lots of
"hot babes" wandering the bar. The two start to tell Warren to go for this one, or that
one, but Warren spots someone he knows sitting at the bar. Tired of their requests and
fighting, Warren takes the earpiece/mic off and drops it in a nearby unfinished drink
(sending waves of a squelchy feedback to the headphones of Andrew and Jonathan)
and approaches Katrina, his old girlfriend (before the Aprilbot incident).She instantly recognizes him and is instantly disgusted. Warren makes some genuine
apologies to Katrina, but she is clearly not ready to forgive and wishes to go. Warren
stops her, quickly dons some protective eyewear, and pulls out the silver "cerebral
inhibitor", which flashes a bright red blast of light briefly. Katrina sees the light and
suddenly says "I love you Master." Warren smiles "I love you too, baby."Buffy walks in her front door to find Dawn and Xander dancing! "Is there singing?!?
Are we singing again!?!" No demon spells this time, though Xander and Anya (who
sits nearby with Willow) are teaching Dawn how to dance for the wedding. Buffy looks
tired and dragged out (which Anya of course comments on). Xander and Willow
suggest going to the Bronze to loosen up a little, but Buffy wants to just relax at home
with Dawn. Just then a car honks outside and Dawn starts to get ready to go. "I'm
spending the night at Janice's?" Dawn asks awkwardly, but as Buffy objects
(remembering the last time she told that one at Halloween), Willow says that she
checked it out and it's legit. Buffy is hurt and asks Dawn to stay. Dawn looks
uncomfortable "you're never around anymore I didn't know you'd be here." Dawn
leaves as Buffy, hurt, turns to the others, wanting to suddenly go to the Bronze!The pop of a champagne cork is heard as Katrina "serves" Warren a glass. She is
dressed in a French maid outfit and, with a blank stare on her face, continues to pour
glasses of bubbly for Andrew and Jonathan. The three toast "To crime!" as they revel in
their newfound sex-slave! Jonathan and Andrew giggle as they ask who gets to "have
fun" with her first, but Jonathan calmly says he gets her first, they can have her when
he's done.Leading her off to a side bedroom, Katrina says "I never should have left you Master"
and "I love you Master" at Warren's coaching as she and Warren kiss passionately.
Warren orders her to kneel, and she answers "Yes, Warren." The spell is wearing off!
Katrina suddenly comes to out of her hypnotic state and is furious!Thrown through the bedroom doorway into the view of the other two geeks (who are
light-saber fighting), Warren asks who the hell they are? Warren tells the other two to
find the Dampener while he tries to talk to Katrina, but she is hurt and pissed! Jonathan
and Andrew scramble to find the Dampener, and upon finding it, Andrew uses it to no
avail! The Silver ball sparks and fizzles out, and Katrina now knows what they used to
control her! Warren says that he just wanted Katrina back, which clues Andrew and
Jonathan in on the fact that she was Warren's ex. She turns to the others, asking them
if they think it's some sort of game? Well, it's not, it's real. "It's rape!" The impact of
that statement sinks into Andrew and Jonathan and they are suddenly silenced. Katrina
tells Warren to get lost as she turns to go."Stop her" orders Warren as Andrew and Jonathan grab onto her, but the two geeks are
no match for the highly pissed off woman. She easily downs them both and continues
out up some stairs as Jonathan races after her, grabbing onto her several times, trying
to stop her from continuing up the stairs, but she kicks and fights and claws at his face.
He grabs a nearby bottle and swings it down hard on her head and she falls limp."Charge the Cerebral Dampener." Warren orders, but Andrew and Jonathan look on in
horror. Warren says they'll just give her another dose, everything will be ok, as he has
Andrew go and help Katrina up. But Andrew says everything isn't going to be ok as he
raises a bloody hand from her head. "I think she's dead."Commercial break: Kodak film, used proudly by drunken blackmailing partygoers
everywhere!Andrew sits on the stairs in shock, crying. Jonathan ask how Warren he could do it, but
Warren throws Jonathan up against a wall, saying "WE did this ME, and ANDREW,
and YOU! It's on all of us" They wonder about teleporting the body out, but it's too
big. They consider summoning something to eat the body, but Andrew says what they
summon would be out of control and would try for them, too. Jonathan starts to panic,
saying that Buffy is gonna find out, link Katrina to Warren, and then they're all finished!
Andrew and Jonathan want to turn themselves in, but Warren refuses, having a better
idea that would take care of both of their problems (Katrina and the Slayer) with one big
stoneXander and Anya are dancing to big-band music at the Bronze as Willow looks on in
uneasiness, not wanting to have to dance like that! Xander and Anya invite Willow and
Buffy onto the dance floor, but only Willow accepts as Buffy goes to get another drink.
She abandons her drink at the bar, though, to go up into the catwalk to overlook
everyone."You see you try to be with them, but you're in love with the dark with me. What
would they think of you if they found out? The things you've done? If they knew who
you really were?" Spike's voice is taunting and seductive as he approaches Buffy from
behind and starts to slowly touch her arm, her thigh... "Don't" she responds. "Stop
me" challenges Spike.Buffy is seduced by the vampire's touch and words. He orders her to continue watching
the "other world" below, saying that she belongs with him, as they well, obviously are
"doing" something not so public."I think I pulled a Jive muscle" Xander quips as he massages his leg. He and Willow
walk down the street as they see Tara coming out of the Magic Box. With a large magic
book. Xander beats a hasty exit into the shop as Willow and Tara talk awkwardly.
Willow says that she's doing better Tara tries to hide the book from Willow, but Willow
says it's ok, she doesn't have to stop using magic just because she herself went out of
control. "No spells for 32 days!" and says that she can even go in the Magic Box now
as long as someone's with her. Tara says she was just looking for Buffy, but Willow
hasn't seen her lately. The two continue to walk on, but Tara turns to say "Will I'm
I'm glad you're doing better." She smiles at Willow but the smile is surrounded by pain.
Willow watches her lover walk away, confused.A hauntingly slow song starts as Buffy walks in the graveyard on patrol in the dark.
Spike is in his crypt, lights a cigarette as he walks up to the crypt door. Buffy stands on
the other side, hesitating. Spike whips the door open to find nothing. Buffy walks
away, trying to convince herself not to think of "the evil, bloodsucking fiend." Off in the
distance, she hears a scream and runs to investigate!A hooded figure chases a woman under a tree with Buffy in hot pursuit. Buffy dives on
the figure and tackles it, only to wind up sprawled on the ground, all alone. The woman
lays nearby, sobbing. Suddenly voices are heard in the very air, making Buffy look
around confused. "What did you do? What did you do? What did you do?" they repeat
over again, sending Buffy to her knees, clutching her ears"Bloody hell" says Spike as he is thrown to the ground by Buffy, who stands there above
him, not knowing or remembering what she did. Out of nowhere, three hooded demons
attack, two on Buffy, one on Spike. Spike easily dispatches his, Buffy has some trouble
with her two before she is really hit hard across the face, sending her into a sort of
"shift.""Spike? What's happening?" Buffy stands alone as Spike calmly walks up to her,
commenting that she can't get away that easily. She stands confused as suddenly she
shifts againMid combat with the hooded demons again, Buffy and Spike fight them off. The woman
is seen running by Buffy again, collapsing into the leaves and crying. Then things
happen WAY too fast: Buffy throws Spike, Hooded demons attack, She stands alone,
scene after scene is replayed, untilBuffy spins and punches a figure which turns out to be the woman, sending the woman
to the ground and rolling down a hill. Spike finishes off one of the hooded figures as he
sees Buffy follow the woman's rolling body. He tries to follow but is attacked again by a
hooded figure, who he punches in the chest HARD and we hear the squelching of guts.Spike arrives at the bottom of the hill to find Buffy kneeling at the woman's side. "She's
dead, I killed her." Katrina's body lays at Buffy's side as a figure watches from behind a
distant tree a figure that looks like Katrina!Commercial Break: Windex makes it SHINE!
Buffy still wonders what happened, but Spike urges her to go quickly. Spike escorts her
away from the scene and orders a clearly in shock Buffy to go back home and crawl into
bed and forget about everything. He tells her not to worry, nobody saw.But on a computer monitor, all IS seen! In their van, Warren and Andrew watch and
record the scene as the door opens and "Katrina" steps in. She then morphs into
Jonathan! Andrew asks what they do next? Sarcastically, Jonathan says "The night's
young there's gotta be some more girls we can kill" as he stares right at Warren.
Warren says they stick to the plan: "Buffy thinks she killed Katrina It's her problem
now."Buffy tosses in her bed as Spike tries to calm her. They start to make love, but things
aren't quite right. Buffy has visions of a handcuffed Spike, which shift to a handcuffed
Katrina. Buffy straddles Spike, pulling out a stake, and then slams it down into Katrina's
chest.Buffy jolts awake, fully clothed, alone in her bed. Still confused and scared, she goes to
check on Dawn who is asleep in her room. Buffy gently wakes a sleeping Dawn. "I just
wanted I love you." Dawn raises up out of bed and is concerned, scared, asking
Buffy why she's talking strangely. Buffy tells Dawn that she hurt someone in an
accident in the forest, and when Dawn asks if the person is alright, Buffy admits "no
I'm sorry." Dawn embraces her sister as Buffy says that she has to tell the police.
Dawn worries what will happen, but then starts thinking that Buffy simply doesn't want to
be there. "You're never here anyways." Dawn says that Buffy never wanted to come
back and doesn't like it here, then Dawn storms out, crying and hurt.In an alley by the police station, Spike grabs Buffy and thows her to the ground. Buffy
says she has to tell them what happened, but Spike says "Nothing happened." Buffy
says that she'll show them the body, but Spike answers back that he "took care of it."
No one will ever find her"Where'd they find her?" One officer says from around the corner. "In the river, about a
half a mile away from the cemetery." Another answers.Commercial break: Here at Honda, we make so many products, we've almost forgotten
about the cars!Spike and Buffy continue to argue in the alleyway. Buffy almost pleads that she has to
do this, but Spike says there's nothing linking her to the crime. Spike says he can't
allow her to turn herself in, he loves her. "No you don't." she answers. "You think I
haven't tried not to?" Buffy then BELTS Spike a good one, sending him flying. "Try
harder!"Buffy storms off but it stopped again by a game-faced Spike. Spike tries to get her to
vent, to explain why this is bothering her so much. So Buffy does. She begins to beat
the crap out of Spike, and her speech is telling:"I am not your girl! You don't have a soul. There is nothing good or clean in you. You
are dead inside. You can't feel anything real. I could never be your girl!" She punches
the hell out of Spike's face again and again, leaving him with swollen eyes and cuts.
"You only hurt the ones you love, pet" is his only response. She looks horrified. She
gets up from him and walks slowly into the police station, trying to get the desk
sergeant's attention, but the phone rings. Buffy overhears the conversation, learning
that they now know the dead girl's name: Katrina Silvers. Buffy has a flashback of
memory to a confrontation between Warren and Katrina at Warren's place (from "I was
made to love you"). Buffy starts to get suspicious and walks quickly out.Back at the Magic Box, Anya shows Buffy a picture of the Hooded demons she fought.
The demons can create a localized time distortion field around themselves apparently
and are very rare. Buffy now knows that she was tricked into thinking she killed Katrina,
and that Warren has something to do with her death. Xander and Willow are relieved
but Dawn asks coldly "does this mean you're not going away?" Buffy tries to comfort
her sister by saying she's not going anywhere, but Dawn storms off.A confidential coroner's report is on the monitor in the supervillian's lair. They have
gotten away with it, even though they weren't able to pin it on Buffy. Andrew says "We
really got away with murder. That's kinda cool" as a slight grin appears on his face.
Jonathan agrees that it's cool, but doesn't look nearly as convinced.Sitting in the Summers living room, Buffy talks to Tara who has good news! Nothing is
"wrong" with Buffy, but she is different. The spell that pulled her back into this
dimension altered her molecular structure, allowing Spike's chip to be confused. Buffy
is shaken and worried, saying that Tara must have missed something, asking her to
check again. Tara assures her that she's ok, but Buffy wonders why she is feeling the
things she is feeling."Why did I let Spike do those things to me?" Buffy asks? Tara says "hit you?" Buffy
shakes her head, and a concerned, surprised look comes over Tara as she gets the
picture. Buffy continues to question why she's having these feelings for him, why she
keeps going back to him. Tara has no answers, but instead asks a question: "Do you
love him?" Buffy is silent. Tara says that it's ok to admit she loves him, and if she
doesn't, that's ok too, she's been under such pressure lately. But Buffy still wonders
why she keeps going back to him. Buffy then begs Tara not to tell the others, and Tara
promises her she won't. Buffy feels it's wrong to see him, she breaks down and says
she is wrong "Tell me that I'm wrong please don't forgive me." Tara rocks Buffy
back and fourth gently, comforting her.Grrr Arrg
*summary text edited in by WillTara.
Thanks to Leoff and the the Buffy Cross and Stake.
[This message has been edited by WillTara (edited February 04, 2002).]
quote:by Scout » Mon Feb 04, 2002 7:27 am
quote:
Originally posted by tommo:
Sounds like Tara's getting all involved in the gang again then. This excites me; I love it when Tara talks shop. Heh.
I know what you mean, Ruth. I get a small thrill every time I hear Tara talk about astral projection in "Who Are You." The woman knows her stuff.
After reading the wildfeed, I have a feeling it's going to be hard watching the interaction outside the Magic Box in tomorrow night's show. The first few times they're around each other will be so awkward and painful, as they each try to feel their way back into the relationship. But I have no doubts that goodness is sure to follow.
And the B/T scenes sound wonderful. It will be great not only to see Tara again, but to see her get a meaty scene where she can really shine as an individual. Good stuff!
quote:by Rally » Mon Feb 04, 2002 7:35 am
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"With Willow, it's like she's got this... whole new thing in her life but she's still Willow so I can always figure her out. But Tara, I just know she likes Willow and she already has one of those."
by Dr.G » Mon Feb 04, 2002 7:52 am
by Scout » Mon Feb 04, 2002 8:09 am
by Dr.G » Mon Feb 04, 2002 8:15 am
Thanks for the summary Leoff.
A W/T scene again. Finally. Ah and I am looking forward to the Buffy/Tara scenes as well.
Oh and does not this 'prove' (not that there need be proof) AngelX was right about it being the worst thing for Buffy not to be wrong as well:
quote:"Tell me that I'm wrong please don't forgive me." Tara rocks Buffy
back and fourth gently, comforting her.
One more thingie:
quote:"Stop her" orders Warren as Andrew and Jonathan grab onto her, but the two geeks are
no match for the highly pissed off woman. She easily downs them both and continues
out up some stairs as Jonathan races after her, grabbing onto her several times, trying
to stop her from continuing up the stairs, but she kicks and fights and claws at his face.
He grabs a nearby bottle and swings it down hard on her head and she falls limp.
Isn't it Warren, not Jonathan, who hits Katrina with the bottle?
[This message has been edited by Dr.G (edited February 04, 2002).]
quote:quote:by Warduke » Mon Feb 04, 2002 8:17 am
It's so great to finally have Tara back, can't wait to see it tonight
And as for the Herc/AnGelX thing, well maybe it’s because Michelle hasn’t jumped on the Tara’s the BSD bandwagon, which of course has only one purpose, to turn Willow into the Big Bad...please [This message has been edited by Warduke (edited February 04, 2002).]
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I really like the way Buffy opens up to her like that. If anything, this proves that Tara needs to be around more often, especially now the Slayer is sharing secrets with her... *wiggles eyebrows mysteriously*
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"Bitter, party of one. Bitter, party of one." she muttered... ~ Four Months After by Capt. Murdock
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Anyway, Tara oh Tara, my Tara. I could barely read the troika stuff, I don't know how I am going to watch it, very disturbing.
Thank you leoff!!
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Reading the wildfeed had just made it even harder to wait for W/T goodness tomorrow night. I'm so glad we don't have to wait until the end of the episode to get our W/T moment. I probably couldn't have waited that long.
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A.K.A. Liz
"Did you try looking in the sofa in hell?" Willow in Dopplegangland.
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Edited to add: Yes, it does indeed seem disturbing, but I've long accepted that that is the feel of the season. I trust that it's all going somewhere. I'm a big fan of dark stories if they have a point. I'm just gonna wait and see.
[This message has been edited by Willowlicious (edited February 04, 2002).]
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I can't believe they made Jonothan a murderer and a rapist! I would have expected as much from creepy Warren, and Andrew is a non-entity in my eyes,but Jonothan?!? It really seems out of character for him!
And the lame gunmen have officially graduated to Big Bad status. And let me tell you-they might just be the creepiest BB yet. It's one thing for a demon/vampire/Hellgod to want to suck the world into Hell or eat the school or whatever, but real people commiting rape and murder?A little too close to real life.
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OK, something tells me the Buffy writers have been hanging out at the Erotic Mind Control Story Archive a bit too much lately... O_o
Nice to see lotsa Tara this ep, especially showing her in a non-Willow capacity. She's really turning out to be the most together of our bunch. Really want to see how those scenes with Buffy play out on screen...
--SG
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-len
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But I am not happy about little Jonathan being turned into a would-be rapist and an accessory to murder. It looks like the Troika (Warren, at the very least) is going to be what passes this season for a Big Bad after all. The boys worked fine when they were used for comic relief. But rape and murder? And a previously sympathetic character helping to frame Buffy? This sort of thing is just squalid and unpleasant. And I do think Jonathan has shown enough of a moral compass in the past that he would never do this shit. Between what's happened to him & Amy, maybe we should hope they don't bring back any more previously likable characters.
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What we're seeing here is the way things pan out for a plan that wasn't very well thought out at all, ("You guys wanna team up and take over Sunnydale?") and into which almost no consideration was given to the implications and consequences. It was a flippant impulse decision--at least on Jonathan and Andrew's parts, as Warren proposed the idea in the first place and is now showing himself to have a definite dark streak. It got them into messing around with powerful spells and demons as if they were toys, giving as little thought to those consequences until their actions ended up killing an innocent girl.
The LG have been bandying about the idea of hypnotizing people into being their sex slaves for a while now, ever since "Flooded." I don't think Jonathan and Andrew really thought about the idea much beyond the initial appeal of having someone do their bidding. But now . . . now that it's happened, and now that they've gotten a glimpse of the humanity of their victim . . . at least Jonathan seems to be genuinely shaken up by it.
It's going to be dark and painful and awful to watch, that's for damn sure . . . but from all appearances it's going to be powerfully done.
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"And if there is a way to find you, I will find you . . . but threads that are golden don't break easily . . ." -- Tori Amos
"Love is lightning, love is ice; it only strikes the lucky twice--once so you will know the price, and once for crazy faith . . ." -- Alison Krauss and Union Station
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The fact neither he nor Andrew viewed what they were about to do as 'rape' doesn't make them any less guilty.
But I agree, the time has come for an inner Troika rift. Jonothan and andrew need to snap out of their adolsecent sordid fantasy and realise that Warren is a power-hungry psycho,and that they're now full-fledged criminals, not comic-book vilains.
On that same note, I rewatched Flooded yesterday, and saw their'list' again-where they's added 'making Buffy their sex slave'. At the time, I thought it was just a lame joke, but it turned out to be foreshadowing of sorts.Kudos to Joss, from managing to change the Troika from funny to disturbing. Stuff like that does happen in the real world (ok, without demons,spells or freeze rays).Things that start out as a joke go too far, and next thing you know, it's all over the news!
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So, while I do honestly think that Warren is a shade beyond the other two, and I truly hope (and suspect) that Jonathan will break with him and more or less do the right thing, I don't think his actions in Dead Things are utterly out of character.
-len
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[This message has been edited by Warduke (edited February 04, 2002).]
IP: LoggedWiccagrrlGay Now! IP: Logged
posted February 04, 2002 10:41 This sounds like a really good ep. I'm *so* excited. And yay, Tara IP: LoggedtommoLesbian Gay Type Lover I really like the way Buffy opens up to her like that. If anything, this proves that Tara needs to be around more often, especially now the Slayer is sharing secrets with her... *wiggles eyebrows mysteriously*
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"Bitter, party of one. Bitter, party of one." she muttered... ~ Four Months After by Capt. Murdock
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posted February 04, 2002 10:42 Wow, what a great way to get Tara back into the swing of things. They're really pulling out all the stops this season to show just how mature she is aren't they? I'm so proud! Heh heh.I really like the way Buffy opens up to her like that. If anything, this proves that Tara needs to be around more often, especially now the Slayer is sharing secrets with her... *wiggles eyebrows mysteriously*
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"Bitter, party of one. Bitter, party of one." she muttered... ~ Four Months After by Capt. Murdock
Anyway, Tara oh Tara, my Tara. I could barely read the troika stuff, I don't know how I am going to watch it, very disturbing.
Thank you leoff!!
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posted February 04, 2002 10:48 Ok, herc petty much? Hmm cause she had the actual spoiler... the very exact words including molecular structure?Anyway, Tara oh Tara, my Tara. I could barely read the troika stuff, I don't know how I am going to watch it, very disturbing.
Thank you leoff!!
IP: Loggedwillow420Cool Monster Fighter Reading the wildfeed had just made it even harder to wait for W/T goodness tomorrow night. I'm so glad we don't have to wait until the end of the episode to get our W/T moment. I probably couldn't have waited that long.
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A.K.A. Liz
"Did you try looking in the sofa in hell?" Willow in Dopplegangland.
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posted February 04, 2002 11:16 Yay, wildfeed!!!!!Reading the wildfeed had just made it even harder to wait for W/T goodness tomorrow night. I'm so glad we don't have to wait until the end of the episode to get our W/T moment. I probably couldn't have waited that long.
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A.K.A. Liz
"Did you try looking in the sofa in hell?" Willow in Dopplegangland.
IP: LoggedWillowliciousCool Monster Fighter Edited to add: Yes, it does indeed seem disturbing, but I've long accepted that that is the feel of the season. I trust that it's all going somewhere. I'm a big fan of dark stories if they have a point. I'm just gonna wait and see.
[This message has been edited by Willowlicious (edited February 04, 2002).]
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posted February 04, 2002 11:24 Ooooo, this episode sounds really powerful! It will be SO NICE to see Tara again AND have her play an important part in the plot. Sigh.Edited to add: Yes, it does indeed seem disturbing, but I've long accepted that that is the feel of the season. I trust that it's all going somewhere. I'm a big fan of dark stories if they have a point. I'm just gonna wait and see.
[This message has been edited by Willowlicious (edited February 04, 2002).]
IP: LoggedShewolfCool Monster Fighter I can't believe they made Jonothan a murderer and a rapist! I would have expected as much from creepy Warren, and Andrew is a non-entity in my eyes,but Jonothan?!? It really seems out of character for him!
And the lame gunmen have officially graduated to Big Bad status. And let me tell you-they might just be the creepiest BB yet. It's one thing for a demon/vampire/Hellgod to want to suck the world into Hell or eat the school or whatever, but real people commiting rape and murder?A little too close to real life.
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posted February 04, 2002 11:26 I have very mixed feelings about this episode. On the one hand, I'm happy we finally get to see Tara, and her bonding with Buffy, but on the other hand, the Troika stuff is very disturbing.I can't believe they made Jonothan a murderer and a rapist! I would have expected as much from creepy Warren, and Andrew is a non-entity in my eyes,but Jonothan?!? It really seems out of character for him!
And the lame gunmen have officially graduated to Big Bad status. And let me tell you-they might just be the creepiest BB yet. It's one thing for a demon/vampire/Hellgod to want to suck the world into Hell or eat the school or whatever, but real people commiting rape and murder?A little too close to real life.
IP: LoggedSeanGaffneyDoll's Eye Crystal OK, something tells me the Buffy writers have been hanging out at the Erotic Mind Control Story Archive a bit too much lately... O_o
Nice to see lotsa Tara this ep, especially showing her in a non-Willow capacity. She's really turning out to be the most together of our bunch. Really want to see how those scenes with Buffy play out on screen...
--SG
IP: Logged
IP: Logged
-len
IP: Logged
IP: Logged
But I am not happy about little Jonathan being turned into a would-be rapist and an accessory to murder. It looks like the Troika (Warren, at the very least) is going to be what passes this season for a Big Bad after all. The boys worked fine when they were used for comic relief. But rape and murder? And a previously sympathetic character helping to frame Buffy? This sort of thing is just squalid and unpleasant. And I do think Jonathan has shown enough of a moral compass in the past that he would never do this shit. Between what's happened to him & Amy, maybe we should hope they don't bring back any more previously likable characters.
IP: Logged
What we're seeing here is the way things pan out for a plan that wasn't very well thought out at all, ("You guys wanna team up and take over Sunnydale?") and into which almost no consideration was given to the implications and consequences. It was a flippant impulse decision--at least on Jonathan and Andrew's parts, as Warren proposed the idea in the first place and is now showing himself to have a definite dark streak. It got them into messing around with powerful spells and demons as if they were toys, giving as little thought to those consequences until their actions ended up killing an innocent girl.
The LG have been bandying about the idea of hypnotizing people into being their sex slaves for a while now, ever since "Flooded." I don't think Jonathan and Andrew really thought about the idea much beyond the initial appeal of having someone do their bidding. But now . . . now that it's happened, and now that they've gotten a glimpse of the humanity of their victim . . . at least Jonathan seems to be genuinely shaken up by it.
It's going to be dark and painful and awful to watch, that's for damn sure . . . but from all appearances it's going to be powerfully done.
------------------
"And if there is a way to find you, I will find you . . . but threads that are golden don't break easily . . ." -- Tori Amos
"Love is lightning, love is ice; it only strikes the lucky twice--once so you will know the price, and once for crazy faith . . ." -- Alison Krauss and Union Station
IP: Logged
The fact neither he nor Andrew viewed what they were about to do as 'rape' doesn't make them any less guilty.
But I agree, the time has come for an inner Troika rift. Jonothan and andrew need to snap out of their adolsecent sordid fantasy and realise that Warren is a power-hungry psycho,and that they're now full-fledged criminals, not comic-book vilains.
On that same note, I rewatched Flooded yesterday, and saw their'list' again-where they's added 'making Buffy their sex slave'. At the time, I thought it was just a lame joke, but it turned out to be foreshadowing of sorts.Kudos to Joss, from managing to change the Troika from funny to disturbing. Stuff like that does happen in the real world (ok, without demons,spells or freeze rays).Things that start out as a joke go too far, and next thing you know, it's all over the news!
IP: Logged
So, while I do honestly think that Warren is a shade beyond the other two, and I truly hope (and suspect) that Jonathan will break with him and more or less do the right thing, I don't think his actions in Dead Things are utterly out of character.
-len
IP: Logged
OK, something tells me the Buffy writers have been hanging out at the Erotic Mind Control Story Archive a bit too much lately... O_o
Nice to see lotsa Tara this ep, especially showing her in a non-Willow capacity. She's really turning out to be the most together of our bunch. Really want to see how those scenes with Buffy play out on screen...
--SG
IP: Logged
IP: Logged
-len
IP: Logged
IP: Logged
But I am not happy about little Jonathan being turned into a would-be rapist and an accessory to murder. It looks like the Troika (Warren, at the very least) is going to be what passes this season for a Big Bad after all. The boys worked fine when they were used for comic relief. But rape and murder? And a previously sympathetic character helping to frame Buffy? This sort of thing is just squalid and unpleasant. And I do think Jonathan has shown enough of a moral compass in the past that he would never do this shit. Between what's happened to him & Amy, maybe we should hope they don't bring back any more previously likable characters.
IP: Logged
What we're seeing here is the way things pan out for a plan that wasn't very well thought out at all, ("You guys wanna team up and take over Sunnydale?") and into which almost no consideration was given to the implications and consequences. It was a flippant impulse decision--at least on Jonathan and Andrew's parts, as Warren proposed the idea in the first place and is now showing himself to have a definite dark streak. It got them into messing around with powerful spells and demons as if they were toys, giving as little thought to those consequences until their actions ended up killing an innocent girl.
The LG have been bandying about the idea of hypnotizing people into being their sex slaves for a while now, ever since "Flooded." I don't think Jonathan and Andrew really thought about the idea much beyond the initial appeal of having someone do their bidding. But now . . . now that it's happened, and now that they've gotten a glimpse of the humanity of their victim . . . at least Jonathan seems to be genuinely shaken up by it.
It's going to be dark and painful and awful to watch, that's for damn sure . . . but from all appearances it's going to be powerfully done.
------------------
"And if there is a way to find you, I will find you . . . but threads that are golden don't break easily . . ." -- Tori Amos
"Love is lightning, love is ice; it only strikes the lucky twice--once so you will know the price, and once for crazy faith . . ." -- Alison Krauss and Union Station
IP: Logged
The fact neither he nor Andrew viewed what they were about to do as 'rape' doesn't make them any less guilty.
But I agree, the time has come for an inner Troika rift. Jonothan and andrew need to snap out of their adolsecent sordid fantasy and realise that Warren is a power-hungry psycho,and that they're now full-fledged criminals, not comic-book vilains.
On that same note, I rewatched Flooded yesterday, and saw their'list' again-where they's added 'making Buffy their sex slave'. At the time, I thought it was just a lame joke, but it turned out to be foreshadowing of sorts.Kudos to Joss, from managing to change the Troika from funny to disturbing. Stuff like that does happen in the real world (ok, without demons,spells or freeze rays).Things that start out as a joke go too far, and next thing you know, it's all over the news!
IP: Logged
So, while I do honestly think that Warren is a shade beyond the other two, and I truly hope (and suspect) that Jonathan will break with him and more or less do the right thing, I don't think his actions in Dead Things are utterly out of character.
-len
IP: Logged
IP: Logged
posted February 04, 2002 11:41 Shewolf, I really think it is Warren who hits and kills Katrina, I think Leoff made a typo there, or else the spoilers were wrong, but then Jonathan's subsequent comment to Warren how he (Warren) could have done it makes no sense. Still the fact they went along with it *and* tried to stop her from leaving is so very bad enough.IP: LoggedHuginMs. Moderator -len
IP: Logged
posted February 04, 2002 11:44 Shewolf, it looks pretty much like this is the beginning of a rift or stratification between the Lame Gunmen, we have to see how it plays onscreen, but it seems pretty clear that Warren's malevolence is setting him apart from Jonathan and Andrew. I'd like it very much if they have just barely enough moral perspective to see that they have to truly break with him and fight him.-len
IP: LoggedxitaMs. Moderator IP: Logged
posted February 04, 2002 12:11 I was surprised Jonathan and Andrew were going along with the slave thing at the beginning. They won't go as far as Warren but obviously their moral compass has malfunctioned.IP: LoggedJunkyard DogBlessed Wannabe But I am not happy about little Jonathan being turned into a would-be rapist and an accessory to murder. It looks like the Troika (Warren, at the very least) is going to be what passes this season for a Big Bad after all. The boys worked fine when they were used for comic relief. But rape and murder? And a previously sympathetic character helping to frame Buffy? This sort of thing is just squalid and unpleasant. And I do think Jonathan has shown enough of a moral compass in the past that he would never do this shit. Between what's happened to him & Amy, maybe we should hope they don't bring back any more previously likable characters.
IP: Logged
posted February 04, 2002 12:12 I agree with Shewolf and with some of Dr. G's comments. The latest Troika developments are creepy, and not in a good horror-movie way. Worse, they're depressing. I'm glad Tara's back, and that Buffy is (finally) making some effort to sort out some of her current problems. (Fer Chrissakes, how many weeks have passed since Spike told her she came back "wrong"? If I was her, I'd have looked into that a *LOT* sooner.)But I am not happy about little Jonathan being turned into a would-be rapist and an accessory to murder. It looks like the Troika (Warren, at the very least) is going to be what passes this season for a Big Bad after all. The boys worked fine when they were used for comic relief. But rape and murder? And a previously sympathetic character helping to frame Buffy? This sort of thing is just squalid and unpleasant. And I do think Jonathan has shown enough of a moral compass in the past that he would never do this shit. Between what's happened to him & Amy, maybe we should hope they don't bring back any more previously likable characters.
IP: LoggedShaniezakBig Pineapple What we're seeing here is the way things pan out for a plan that wasn't very well thought out at all, ("You guys wanna team up and take over Sunnydale?") and into which almost no consideration was given to the implications and consequences. It was a flippant impulse decision--at least on Jonathan and Andrew's parts, as Warren proposed the idea in the first place and is now showing himself to have a definite dark streak. It got them into messing around with powerful spells and demons as if they were toys, giving as little thought to those consequences until their actions ended up killing an innocent girl.
The LG have been bandying about the idea of hypnotizing people into being their sex slaves for a while now, ever since "Flooded." I don't think Jonathan and Andrew really thought about the idea much beyond the initial appeal of having someone do their bidding. But now . . . now that it's happened, and now that they've gotten a glimpse of the humanity of their victim . . . at least Jonathan seems to be genuinely shaken up by it.
It's going to be dark and painful and awful to watch, that's for damn sure . . . but from all appearances it's going to be powerfully done.
------------------
"And if there is a way to find you, I will find you . . . but threads that are golden don't break easily . . ." -- Tori Amos
"Love is lightning, love is ice; it only strikes the lucky twice--once so you will know the price, and once for crazy faith . . ." -- Alison Krauss and Union Station
IP: Logged
posted February 04, 2002 12:22 I don't think any of us are happy about what's happened to young Mr. Levenson. Moreover, I don't think any of us are supposed to be.What we're seeing here is the way things pan out for a plan that wasn't very well thought out at all, ("You guys wanna team up and take over Sunnydale?") and into which almost no consideration was given to the implications and consequences. It was a flippant impulse decision--at least on Jonathan and Andrew's parts, as Warren proposed the idea in the first place and is now showing himself to have a definite dark streak. It got them into messing around with powerful spells and demons as if they were toys, giving as little thought to those consequences until their actions ended up killing an innocent girl.
The LG have been bandying about the idea of hypnotizing people into being their sex slaves for a while now, ever since "Flooded." I don't think Jonathan and Andrew really thought about the idea much beyond the initial appeal of having someone do their bidding. But now . . . now that it's happened, and now that they've gotten a glimpse of the humanity of their victim . . . at least Jonathan seems to be genuinely shaken up by it.
It's going to be dark and painful and awful to watch, that's for damn sure . . . but from all appearances it's going to be powerfully done.
------------------
"And if there is a way to find you, I will find you . . . but threads that are golden don't break easily . . ." -- Tori Amos
"Love is lightning, love is ice; it only strikes the lucky twice--once so you will know the price, and once for crazy faith . . ." -- Alison Krauss and Union Station
IP: LoggedShewolfCool Monster Fighter The fact neither he nor Andrew viewed what they were about to do as 'rape' doesn't make them any less guilty.
But I agree, the time has come for an inner Troika rift. Jonothan and andrew need to snap out of their adolsecent sordid fantasy and realise that Warren is a power-hungry psycho,and that they're now full-fledged criminals, not comic-book vilains.
On that same note, I rewatched Flooded yesterday, and saw their'list' again-where they's added 'making Buffy their sex slave'. At the time, I thought it was just a lame joke, but it turned out to be foreshadowing of sorts.Kudos to Joss, from managing to change the Troika from funny to disturbing. Stuff like that does happen in the real world (ok, without demons,spells or freeze rays).Things that start out as a joke go too far, and next thing you know, it's all over the news!
IP: Logged
posted February 04, 2002 12:27 Well, even if Jonothan didn't commit the murder himself, he was still an accessory. And the fact remains he planned to rape Katrina.The fact neither he nor Andrew viewed what they were about to do as 'rape' doesn't make them any less guilty.
But I agree, the time has come for an inner Troika rift. Jonothan and andrew need to snap out of their adolsecent sordid fantasy and realise that Warren is a power-hungry psycho,and that they're now full-fledged criminals, not comic-book vilains.
On that same note, I rewatched Flooded yesterday, and saw their'list' again-where they's added 'making Buffy their sex slave'. At the time, I thought it was just a lame joke, but it turned out to be foreshadowing of sorts.Kudos to Joss, from managing to change the Troika from funny to disturbing. Stuff like that does happen in the real world (ok, without demons,spells or freeze rays).Things that start out as a joke go too far, and next thing you know, it's all over the news!
IP: LoggedHuginMs. Moderator So, while I do honestly think that Warren is a shade beyond the other two, and I truly hope (and suspect) that Jonathan will break with him and more or less do the right thing, I don't think his actions in Dead Things are utterly out of character.
-len
IP: Logged
posted February 04, 2002 12:33 Keep in mind, Jonathan did in fact mind control many, many people for a time, including women who his spell clearly manipulated into giving him sexual access.So, while I do honestly think that Warren is a shade beyond the other two, and I truly hope (and suspect) that Jonathan will break with him and more or less do the right thing, I don't think his actions in Dead Things are utterly out of character.
-len
by Wiccagrrl » Mon Feb 04, 2002 8:41 am
by tommo » Mon Feb 04, 2002 8:42 am
I really like the way Buffy opens up to her like that. If anything, this proves that Tara needs to be around more often, especially now the Slayer is sharing secrets with her... *wiggles eyebrows mysteriously*
------------------
"Bitter, party of one. Bitter, party of one." she muttered... ~ Four Months After by Capt. Murdock
by xita » Mon Feb 04, 2002 8:48 am
Anyway, Tara oh Tara, my Tara. I could barely read the troika stuff, I don't know how I am going to watch it, very disturbing.
Thank you leoff!!
by willow420 » Mon Feb 04, 2002 9:16 am
Reading the wildfeed had just made it even harder to wait for W/T goodness tomorrow night. I'm so glad we don't have to wait until the end of the episode to get our W/T moment. I probably couldn't have waited that long.
------------------
A.K.A. Liz
"Did you try looking in the sofa in hell?" Willow in Dopplegangland.
by Willowlicious » Mon Feb 04, 2002 9:24 am
Edited to add: Yes, it does indeed seem disturbing, but I've long accepted that that is the feel of the season. I trust that it's all going somewhere. I'm a big fan of dark stories if they have a point. I'm just gonna wait and see.
[This message has been edited by Willowlicious (edited February 04, 2002).]
by Shewolf » Mon Feb 04, 2002 9:26 am
I can't believe they made Jonothan a murderer and a rapist! I would have expected as much from creepy Warren, and Andrew is a non-entity in my eyes,but Jonothan?!? It really seems out of character for him!
And the lame gunmen have officially graduated to Big Bad status. And let me tell you-they might just be the creepiest BB yet. It's one thing for a demon/vampire/Hellgod to want to suck the world into Hell or eat the school or whatever, but real people commiting rape and murder?A little too close to real life.
by SeanGaffney » Mon Feb 04, 2002 9:34 am
OK, something tells me the Buffy writers have been hanging out at the Erotic Mind Control Story Archive a bit too much lately... O_o
Nice to see lotsa Tara this ep, especially showing her in a non-Willow capacity. She's really turning out to be the most together of our bunch. Really want to see how those scenes with Buffy play out on screen...
--SG
IP: Logged
IP: Logged
-len
IP: Logged
IP: Logged
But I am not happy about little Jonathan being turned into a would-be rapist and an accessory to murder. It looks like the Troika (Warren, at the very least) is going to be what passes this season for a Big Bad after all. The boys worked fine when they were used for comic relief. But rape and murder? And a previously sympathetic character helping to frame Buffy? This sort of thing is just squalid and unpleasant. And I do think Jonathan has shown enough of a moral compass in the past that he would never do this shit. Between what's happened to him & Amy, maybe we should hope they don't bring back any more previously likable characters.
IP: Logged
What we're seeing here is the way things pan out for a plan that wasn't very well thought out at all, ("You guys wanna team up and take over Sunnydale?") and into which almost no consideration was given to the implications and consequences. It was a flippant impulse decision--at least on Jonathan and Andrew's parts, as Warren proposed the idea in the first place and is now showing himself to have a definite dark streak. It got them into messing around with powerful spells and demons as if they were toys, giving as little thought to those consequences until their actions ended up killing an innocent girl.
The LG have been bandying about the idea of hypnotizing people into being their sex slaves for a while now, ever since "Flooded." I don't think Jonathan and Andrew really thought about the idea much beyond the initial appeal of having someone do their bidding. But now . . . now that it's happened, and now that they've gotten a glimpse of the humanity of their victim . . . at least Jonathan seems to be genuinely shaken up by it.
It's going to be dark and painful and awful to watch, that's for damn sure . . . but from all appearances it's going to be powerfully done.
------------------
"And if there is a way to find you, I will find you . . . but threads that are golden don't break easily . . ." -- Tori Amos
"Love is lightning, love is ice; it only strikes the lucky twice--once so you will know the price, and once for crazy faith . . ." -- Alison Krauss and Union Station
IP: Logged
The fact neither he nor Andrew viewed what they were about to do as 'rape' doesn't make them any less guilty.
But I agree, the time has come for an inner Troika rift. Jonothan and andrew need to snap out of their adolsecent sordid fantasy and realise that Warren is a power-hungry psycho,and that they're now full-fledged criminals, not comic-book vilains.
On that same note, I rewatched Flooded yesterday, and saw their'list' again-where they's added 'making Buffy their sex slave'. At the time, I thought it was just a lame joke, but it turned out to be foreshadowing of sorts.Kudos to Joss, from managing to change the Troika from funny to disturbing. Stuff like that does happen in the real world (ok, without demons,spells or freeze rays).Things that start out as a joke go too far, and next thing you know, it's all over the news!
IP: Logged
So, while I do honestly think that Warren is a shade beyond the other two, and I truly hope (and suspect) that Jonathan will break with him and more or less do the right thing, I don't think his actions in Dead Things are utterly out of character.
-len
IP: Logged
IP: Logged
posted February 04, 2002 11:41 Shewolf, I really think it is Warren who hits and kills Katrina, I think Leoff made a typo there, or else the spoilers were wrong, but then Jonathan's subsequent comment to Warren how he (Warren) could have done it makes no sense. Still the fact they went along with it *and* tried to stop her from leaving is so very bad enough.IP: LoggedHuginMs. Moderator -len
IP: Logged
posted February 04, 2002 11:44 Shewolf, it looks pretty much like this is the beginning of a rift or stratification between the Lame Gunmen, we have to see how it plays onscreen, but it seems pretty clear that Warren's malevolence is setting him apart from Jonathan and Andrew. I'd like it very much if they have just barely enough moral perspective to see that they have to truly break with him and fight him.-len
IP: LoggedxitaMs. Moderator IP: Logged
posted February 04, 2002 12:11 I was surprised Jonathan and Andrew were going along with the slave thing at the beginning. They won't go as far as Warren but obviously their moral compass has malfunctioned.IP: LoggedJunkyard DogBlessed Wannabe But I am not happy about little Jonathan being turned into a would-be rapist and an accessory to murder. It looks like the Troika (Warren, at the very least) is going to be what passes this season for a Big Bad after all. The boys worked fine when they were used for comic relief. But rape and murder? And a previously sympathetic character helping to frame Buffy? This sort of thing is just squalid and unpleasant. And I do think Jonathan has shown enough of a moral compass in the past that he would never do this shit. Between what's happened to him & Amy, maybe we should hope they don't bring back any more previously likable characters.
IP: Logged
posted February 04, 2002 12:12 I agree with Shewolf and with some of Dr. G's comments. The latest Troika developments are creepy, and not in a good horror-movie way. Worse, they're depressing. I'm glad Tara's back, and that Buffy is (finally) making some effort to sort out some of her current problems. (Fer Chrissakes, how many weeks have passed since Spike told her she came back "wrong"? If I was her, I'd have looked into that a *LOT* sooner.)But I am not happy about little Jonathan being turned into a would-be rapist and an accessory to murder. It looks like the Troika (Warren, at the very least) is going to be what passes this season for a Big Bad after all. The boys worked fine when they were used for comic relief. But rape and murder? And a previously sympathetic character helping to frame Buffy? This sort of thing is just squalid and unpleasant. And I do think Jonathan has shown enough of a moral compass in the past that he would never do this shit. Between what's happened to him & Amy, maybe we should hope they don't bring back any more previously likable characters.
IP: LoggedShaniezakBig Pineapple What we're seeing here is the way things pan out for a plan that wasn't very well thought out at all, ("You guys wanna team up and take over Sunnydale?") and into which almost no consideration was given to the implications and consequences. It was a flippant impulse decision--at least on Jonathan and Andrew's parts, as Warren proposed the idea in the first place and is now showing himself to have a definite dark streak. It got them into messing around with powerful spells and demons as if they were toys, giving as little thought to those consequences until their actions ended up killing an innocent girl.
The LG have been bandying about the idea of hypnotizing people into being their sex slaves for a while now, ever since "Flooded." I don't think Jonathan and Andrew really thought about the idea much beyond the initial appeal of having someone do their bidding. But now . . . now that it's happened, and now that they've gotten a glimpse of the humanity of their victim . . . at least Jonathan seems to be genuinely shaken up by it.
It's going to be dark and painful and awful to watch, that's for damn sure . . . but from all appearances it's going to be powerfully done.
------------------
"And if there is a way to find you, I will find you . . . but threads that are golden don't break easily . . ." -- Tori Amos
"Love is lightning, love is ice; it only strikes the lucky twice--once so you will know the price, and once for crazy faith . . ." -- Alison Krauss and Union Station
IP: Logged
posted February 04, 2002 12:22 I don't think any of us are happy about what's happened to young Mr. Levenson. Moreover, I don't think any of us are supposed to be.What we're seeing here is the way things pan out for a plan that wasn't very well thought out at all, ("You guys wanna team up and take over Sunnydale?") and into which almost no consideration was given to the implications and consequences. It was a flippant impulse decision--at least on Jonathan and Andrew's parts, as Warren proposed the idea in the first place and is now showing himself to have a definite dark streak. It got them into messing around with powerful spells and demons as if they were toys, giving as little thought to those consequences until their actions ended up killing an innocent girl.
The LG have been bandying about the idea of hypnotizing people into being their sex slaves for a while now, ever since "Flooded." I don't think Jonathan and Andrew really thought about the idea much beyond the initial appeal of having someone do their bidding. But now . . . now that it's happened, and now that they've gotten a glimpse of the humanity of their victim . . . at least Jonathan seems to be genuinely shaken up by it.
It's going to be dark and painful and awful to watch, that's for damn sure . . . but from all appearances it's going to be powerfully done.
------------------
"And if there is a way to find you, I will find you . . . but threads that are golden don't break easily . . ." -- Tori Amos
"Love is lightning, love is ice; it only strikes the lucky twice--once so you will know the price, and once for crazy faith . . ." -- Alison Krauss and Union Station
IP: LoggedShewolfCool Monster Fighter The fact neither he nor Andrew viewed what they were about to do as 'rape' doesn't make them any less guilty.
But I agree, the time has come for an inner Troika rift. Jonothan and andrew need to snap out of their adolsecent sordid fantasy and realise that Warren is a power-hungry psycho,and that they're now full-fledged criminals, not comic-book vilains.
On that same note, I rewatched Flooded yesterday, and saw their'list' again-where they's added 'making Buffy their sex slave'. At the time, I thought it was just a lame joke, but it turned out to be foreshadowing of sorts.Kudos to Joss, from managing to change the Troika from funny to disturbing. Stuff like that does happen in the real world (ok, without demons,spells or freeze rays).Things that start out as a joke go too far, and next thing you know, it's all over the news!
IP: Logged
posted February 04, 2002 12:27 Well, even if Jonothan didn't commit the murder himself, he was still an accessory. And the fact remains he planned to rape Katrina.The fact neither he nor Andrew viewed what they were about to do as 'rape' doesn't make them any less guilty.
But I agree, the time has come for an inner Troika rift. Jonothan and andrew need to snap out of their adolsecent sordid fantasy and realise that Warren is a power-hungry psycho,and that they're now full-fledged criminals, not comic-book vilains.
On that same note, I rewatched Flooded yesterday, and saw their'list' again-where they's added 'making Buffy their sex slave'. At the time, I thought it was just a lame joke, but it turned out to be foreshadowing of sorts.Kudos to Joss, from managing to change the Troika from funny to disturbing. Stuff like that does happen in the real world (ok, without demons,spells or freeze rays).Things that start out as a joke go too far, and next thing you know, it's all over the news!
IP: LoggedHuginMs. Moderator So, while I do honestly think that Warren is a shade beyond the other two, and I truly hope (and suspect) that Jonathan will break with him and more or less do the right thing, I don't think his actions in Dead Things are utterly out of character.
-len
IP: Logged
posted February 04, 2002 12:33 Keep in mind, Jonathan did in fact mind control many, many people for a time, including women who his spell clearly manipulated into giving him sexual access.So, while I do honestly think that Warren is a shade beyond the other two, and I truly hope (and suspect) that Jonathan will break with him and more or less do the right thing, I don't think his actions in Dead Things are utterly out of character.
-len
by Dr.G » Mon Feb 04, 2002 9:41 am
by Hugin » Mon Feb 04, 2002 9:44 am
-len
by xita » Mon Feb 04, 2002 10:11 am
by Junkyard Dog » Mon Feb 04, 2002 10:12 am
But I am not happy about little Jonathan being turned into a would-be rapist and an accessory to murder. It looks like the Troika (Warren, at the very least) is going to be what passes this season for a Big Bad after all. The boys worked fine when they were used for comic relief. But rape and murder? And a previously sympathetic character helping to frame Buffy? This sort of thing is just squalid and unpleasant. And I do think Jonathan has shown enough of a moral compass in the past that he would never do this shit. Between what's happened to him & Amy, maybe we should hope they don't bring back any more previously likable characters.
by Shaniezak » Mon Feb 04, 2002 10:22 am
What we're seeing here is the way things pan out for a plan that wasn't very well thought out at all, ("You guys wanna team up and take over Sunnydale?") and into which almost no consideration was given to the implications and consequences. It was a flippant impulse decision--at least on Jonathan and Andrew's parts, as Warren proposed the idea in the first place and is now showing himself to have a definite dark streak. It got them into messing around with powerful spells and demons as if they were toys, giving as little thought to those consequences until their actions ended up killing an innocent girl.
The LG have been bandying about the idea of hypnotizing people into being their sex slaves for a while now, ever since "Flooded." I don't think Jonathan and Andrew really thought about the idea much beyond the initial appeal of having someone do their bidding. But now . . . now that it's happened, and now that they've gotten a glimpse of the humanity of their victim . . . at least Jonathan seems to be genuinely shaken up by it.
It's going to be dark and painful and awful to watch, that's for damn sure . . . but from all appearances it's going to be powerfully done.
------------------
"And if there is a way to find you, I will find you . . . but threads that are golden don't break easily . . ." -- Tori Amos
"Love is lightning, love is ice; it only strikes the lucky twice--once so you will know the price, and once for crazy faith . . ." -- Alison Krauss and Union Station
by Shewolf » Mon Feb 04, 2002 10:27 am
The fact neither he nor Andrew viewed what they were about to do as 'rape' doesn't make them any less guilty.
But I agree, the time has come for an inner Troika rift. Jonothan and andrew need to snap out of their adolsecent sordid fantasy and realise that Warren is a power-hungry psycho,and that they're now full-fledged criminals, not comic-book vilains.
On that same note, I rewatched Flooded yesterday, and saw their'list' again-where they's added 'making Buffy their sex slave'. At the time, I thought it was just a lame joke, but it turned out to be foreshadowing of sorts.Kudos to Joss, from managing to change the Troika from funny to disturbing. Stuff like that does happen in the real world (ok, without demons,spells or freeze rays).Things that start out as a joke go too far, and next thing you know, it's all over the news!
by Hugin » Mon Feb 04, 2002 10:33 am
So, while I do honestly think that Warren is a shade beyond the other two, and I truly hope (and suspect) that Jonathan will break with him and more or less do the right thing, I don't think his actions in Dead Things are utterly out of character.
-len
by AutumnT » Mon Feb 04, 2002 10:40 am
by xita » Mon Feb 04, 2002 10:42 am
by Shewolf » Mon Feb 04, 2002 10:43 am
I guess because Superstar was so light-hearted, the R word never came up. Although, in retrospect...sex with two sisters-bleurgh!
by Dr.G » Mon Feb 04, 2002 10:43 am
Heh, I doubt Jonathan just played chess with those blond girls he had on his arm then. He is not so innocent and goofy, and apparently he did not learn his lesson then.
The way this story reads though makes it look like he and Andrew will break with Warren somewhere in the eps to come. I hope so.
by Shaniezak » Mon Feb 04, 2002 10:44 am
And like Len pointed out, Jonathan did pretty much impose his will on the whole world back in "Superstar." I think it was significant that in "Doublemeat Palace," Xander made a comment about being surprised that Jonathan hadn't already learned his lesson.
And you're right about how things like this happen in real life as well, Shewolf. That's what makes it so disturbing.
But as far as a darkly shocking twist to a formerly likable character . . . well, it's not quite so surprising, but on the other hand it's something I'd thoroughly expect from this show, you know?
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