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Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

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Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby Kendahl897 » Sun Sep 01, 2002 8:52 am

Then go back to your girlfriend and enjoy the show, but don't come here and tell us how we should feel about it.. We are Willow and Tara shippers, we enjoyed the show and we trusted Joss when he said he had no plans to send Tara anywhere..If you read the FAQ's, then you would understand that we are angry about being lied to concerning Tara for over two years more, not just upset about Tara's fate..Maybe you don't mind being lied to, but I DO...The FAQ pretty much expresses our feelings. If you don't agree, then don't. But don't come here and preach to me that I should be grateful for the rug Joss gave me when it was always his intention to pull that rug out from under my feet...
Kendahl897
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby Katharyn » Sun Sep 01, 2002 9:18 am

[b:8b2f0ac40f]Bex1983[/b:8b2f0ac40f] - it is just a story I will grant you... but there is a significance to this beyond the limits of the show. Beyond ME and how they treated the W/T fans. Beyond UPN and beyond the USA too.

The significance is in how ME perpetuated a shameful situation in the English speaking western media (of all forms) [b:8b2f0ac40f]after[/b:8b2f0ac40f] they had gleefully accepted the plaudits for being the exception to that situation - and allowed alot of people to put faith in them because of it. They did alot of good with how they portrayed W/T... then they did a lot of harm by reverting to the standard dead/evil lesbian cliche.

That is a large part of the problem.

Katharyn
--------------
Katharyn
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby justastraightdog » Sun Sep 01, 2002 1:22 pm

[b:dac53aa25a] Just a story?[/b:dac53aa25a]

A story doesn't come out of nowhere. For a tv show, there are writers, producers, directors, actors, actresses, etc. pp. And these are [i:dac53aa25a] real[/i:dac53aa25a] people, nothing fictional. And so are the viewers. And what [i:dac53aa25a] is[/i:dac53aa25a] a story? It's a way for those, who create it, to express themselves. To show their opinions, fears, wishes, feelings and so on. Coded into the most powerful media we know: tv. And we, the viewers, have to decode the real meaning behind the fictional story. It's not always easy, but we are trained to do so. Maybe story telling (and understanding) is as old as the [i:dac53aa25a] homo sapiens[/i:dac53aa25a] himself. All traditions, myths, religions are based on it. It's - next to music - the most powerful way to say something about the world. But it's still a message - from the writer to the reader, from the creators of a tv show to the viewers.

This is especially true for a show like Buffy, which has claimed to be more than just industrial made entertainment from the very beginning. It's its creator's vision of the world and life itself (or at least a part of). That's why it was a success, that's why it has a big and very loyal fandom. And is has become a part of pop culture, classified "cool".

Which brings us to 4x10 to 6x19 minus one minute. A fictional story, yes. But much more important is the fact that so many [i:dac53aa25a] real[/i:dac53aa25a] people worked hard to make a story like this possible. Their respect, care, love for the story, its characters and its relationship is what we can see on the screen. For me, as a part of the privileged majority, it was very hard to understand [i:dac53aa25a] how[/i:dac53aa25a] much this meant for many people. Seeing a long term positive depiction of themselves for the first time. Not in a minority oriented show, but in a popular, "cool" one. But after that, it was very easy to understand one of the consequences: the story was a highly needed, direct help for a lot of people, a substitute and compensation not only for everything else on tv, but also for their usualy hostile environment of parents, teachers, classmates, church, even friends, etc. A lot of people? Well, Buffy has about 3.5 millon viewers in the USA. Let's say 10% are from the minority, that are 350000. Lets say that only one percent of those viewers is living in such a hostile environment and too young to get rid of it by themselves. That gives us 3500 girls for whom the story was [i:dac53aa25a] very[/i:dac53aa25a] important. And that [i:dac53aa25a] is[/i:dac53aa25a] a lot, JMO.

Which brings us to the last minute of 6x19 and what happened afterwards. And to its message - which isn't fictional, because the message was sent by real people: [b:dac53aa25a] Your story isn't important. It's not worth to be continued. It's [i:dac53aa25a] ended[/i:dac53aa25a]. We think it's more important to write stories about vengeance demons, rapists with souls, whiny monk-induced illusions. All these stories are worth to think about. Your story isn't. [i:dac53aa25a] You[/i:dac53aa25a] aren't worth to think about. You're nothing worth. Go home. Get over it.[/b:dac53aa25a]

It's one thing if a writer decides to go for hurt and pain, it's something completely different, if he chooses the most vulnerable part of his audience as the target. If Joss had just beat one or two teenage girls to a pulp, the outrage would have been much easier to understand. But he didn't - he did something much worse, to many more than one ore two girls.

My last (and only) hope for season 7? That I highly overestimate the situation. Because if not... It's the Buffyverse. Death isn't always the end. Nothing is true before it's shown on tv. But for what we know about the first episodes, they'll do everything to put a final [i:dac53aa25a] it is done[/i:dac53aa25a] to the story. And with [i:dac53aa25a] that[/i:dac53aa25a], with the definite end of all hopes, I fear that the next dead lesbian to be discussed on this board isn't fictional.

Just my 2 cents.
justastraightdog
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby kyraroc » Sun Sep 01, 2002 5:24 pm

Random responses to several different posts:

Jennem, kbk3022, Chewster, and others -

I wanted to thank you for taking the time to let us know you'd read the FAQ and gotten something out of it, and thank you as well for your stories and lucid analyses. Reading responses like that is one of the things that makes it feel worthwhile to have worked on this.

Stillflygrlop -

Being John Malkovitch did indeed end with a happy lesbian couple, one of the very few well-known films that has done so (not that it's exactly a mainstream film . . .) There are a few others that do; in fact, I personally think that filmmakers are rather ahead of television on this issue, possibly because (to oversimplify quite a bit) anyone with enough equipment and dedication can make a film, but a television show still needs to have the backing of a network. So, while film does have many practical limits on the diversity of voices that tend to get presented, the difficulties are nothing compared to that of getting something on TV.

Bex1983 -

I'll echo xita's sentiments on this one. I think the FAQ itself is our first answer the the questions you've asked.

--- KR
kyraroc
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby urnofosiris » Sun Sep 01, 2002 10:08 pm

[b:2a0a45b115] justastraightdog[/b:2a0a45b115], hell yeah.

[b:2a0a45b115] Bex1983[/b:2a0a45b115], after you have read the FAQ please also go to this page in the (angry) rant thread and read the post made by [b:2a0a45b115] Strapping Lass[/b:2a0a45b115] and then come back and tell us or her it is just a story. I already pointed that post out to someone else who also said it is just a story.
I see that argument or the 'every relationship ends in misery, get over it, be grateful for what you had' arguments a lot, but those have been countered in the FAQ. I would really like it if people actually read the first post in this thread and posted something new to counter the things stated in the FAQ and not repeat the arguments that have been replied to already, if you don't agree with those replies, counter [i:2a0a45b115] those[/i:2a0a45b115] if you can, that way we might actually discuss something instead of having to repeat the same replies against the same arguments over and over again.
Oh and grrrr, why are people so bothered that we are bothered by this? Why is it ok for them to go grrr at something and not for us.:confused
urnofosiris
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby Ben Varkentine » Mon Sep 02, 2002 8:06 am

"Oh and grrrr, why are people so bothered that we are bothered by this? Why is it ok for them to go grrr at something and not for us?"

Best guesses, based on arguing with people on a lot of different fronts: Some of them are bothered because they think we might actually "spoil their party" by affecting BTVS in some way, or even getting it cancelled. Which is actually kind of flattering. One person wrote that he feared we would bring about the "premature" end of Buffy, and all I could think was, premature? Even if you *liked* S6, six years is a long and healthy run for any TV show.

And some of them seem bothered because they don't want to see a show they like, or a writer they admire being criticized

Some of them are homophobes, but I suspect more of them aren't as such, but simply lack the empathy to truly be concerned or interested in someone elses point of view.

Did I leave anything out?
Ben Varkentine
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby tyche » Mon Sep 02, 2002 9:14 am

[quote:81647cbd8d][b:81647cbd8d][i:81647cbd8d]Quote:[/i:81647cbd8d][/b:81647cbd8d]
And some of them seem bothered because they don't want to see a show they like, or a writer they admire being criticized.
[/quote:81647cbd8d]
Exactly. People have this attitude that Joss can do no wrong, that if he chose to do this storyline, then it must have been the only possible option. But you know, Joss and ME are [i:81647cbd8d] human[/i:81647cbd8d]. They screw up. They've made some truly crappy writing decisions in the past (the whole Initiative storyline, the Pylea arc on 'Angel', letting B/S be anything other than bad fanfic) and they made a truly crappy writing decision with this storyline. I have every confidence that they will make other truly crappy writing decisions in the future.

And you know, if they had the guts to put their hands up and say 'okay, we screwed this up, we're sorry for the offence we caused', I would think a hell of a lot more of them.

After everything, every insult that ME has hurled at us, people on other boards still expect us to be grateful. I am grateful to ME for giving us Tara, Willow and W/T in the first place. However, I cannot, and never will be, grateful for the way they slaughtered Tara and destroyed Willow. But even though it's caused me and the other fine people on this board so much heartache, I am glad that W/T existed because, as xita said earlier in this thread, they've raised the bar. Subtext is no longer enough: I want to see than full-on, permanent and HAPPY gay and lesbian relationships on TV and in films, and I believe that the LGBT community deserves nothing less. And when there are hundreds and hundreds of those relationships, [b:81647cbd8d] then[/b:81647cbd8d] we can talk about equal treatment. I hope and believe that this situation will happen some day, and when it does, this board will have helped to bring it into being.
tyche
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby Pipsqueak » Mon Sep 02, 2002 11:06 am

tyche, I agree wholeheartedly (except I actually liked the Pylea arc ..... hey, stop laughing at me ..... no, seriously!). And I just wanted to add that for me at least, it's not even about ME anymore. They're not gonna bring Tara back, they're not gonna admit that they screwed up, they're not gonna listen to us, period. But that's not the point. What I'm waiting for is the day when a TV writer is getting ready to inflict the half-dead-half-evil curse on a lesbian couple, but then s/he remembers the ruckus over Tara, and says "You know, maybe I should reconsider this, I really don't want to pull a Whedon."
Pipsqueak
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby Chewster » Mon Sep 02, 2002 11:11 am

That would be great pipsqueak but I am looking forward to a day (hopefully only shortly) after that when writers will not have to think back to this ruckus because there will be a fair representation on television of society as it exists - you know the one where LGBT actually get to be happy, successdul, alive and not evil? And the Kitten will have helped with that too.

But "pulling a Whedon" that phrase as a warning will do nicely in the meantime.
Chewster
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby Bagheera » Mon Sep 02, 2002 2:40 pm

"Pulling a Whedon" = "Pulling a [b:137ce10dab] weed[/b:137ce10dab] on" - getting stoned to the point where it causes a catastrophic error of judgment.
As in: "Last week I pulled a Whedon and drove my car into a tree."
Bagheera
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby Dumbsaint » Mon Sep 02, 2002 4:48 pm

Oh, Bagheera... if [i:340dea7440] only[/i:340dea7440] you knew how right you are.
Dumbsaint
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby Coma123 » Sat Sep 07, 2002 5:18 am

Hey, I thought this would be the best place for this article. Its mostly to do with the 'desexing' of Austin Powers so a lot isn't relevant. But there is some interesting things towards the end. I'm going to put the whole thing here because its from the New York Times and you need membership to read it, so it would probably be easier for everyone. Anyway I would be interested in opinions on the points about sex in cinema, which in a way is in contrast with the Lesbian Cliche I guess.
Perhaps someone could find an address to write to her on.
--------------------------

The Desexing of Austin Powers
By JAMIE MALANOWSKI


WHEN you watch the Austin Powers movies, you're supposed to think of James Bond. Not just Bond, of course; you're also supposed to think of the "Our Man Flint" movies and Matt Helm, as well as "A Hard Day's Night" and "Help" and the lesser British invasion movies starring Herman's Hermits and the Dave Clark Five. But it's the Bond movies that in a dozen ways give Austin his DNA.


In both series the British secret service remains the spear tip of the free world's defense. In one, the hero faces the bald, pussycat-stroking archvillian Ernst Stavro Blofeld and the hatchet-faced assassin Rosa Klebb, and in the other he faces the bald, pussycat-stroking madman Dr. Evil and the hatchet-faced assassin Frau Farbissina. A couple of dozen other sets and scenes help draw the parallel.

Now, with the third installment, "Austin Powers in Goldmember," having earned nearly $200 million in its first month of release, the Austin Powers series seems on the verge of emulating the highly profitable Bond series in a far less fortunate way. It's becoming a self-perpetuating brand name whose success seems independent of the quality of the product. The Bond of "Dr. No," "From Russia With Love" and "Goldfinger" was a truly revolutionary character: charming, sexy, ruthless, hedonistic, materialistic a character who spoke to the fantasies and nightmares of his period. He has evolved into comfort food, a reliable tour guide through the latest package of gadgets, girls, puns and stunts. Something very similar seems to be happening, and more quickly, to Austin Powers.

And that's too bad, because Austin Powers is a revolutionary character. It's hard to think of him that way, with his bad teeth and glasses and bearlike chest hair and bubbly silliness, but he is. Or at least has been. The reason is simple: he likes sex. He is an extravagant, exuberant, enthusiastic heterosexual who wants to have sex because he thinks it's fun. Not dark, not dangerous, not perverse, not exploitive, not compulsive, not something that's going to give you a disease, not something that's going to admit a killer into your home.

This makes him a very uncommon character. In Hollywood movies of the last several years, the male character who has managed to complete his baccalaureate and who is interested in sex is a rarity. There are movies like "Gladiator," "The Patriot' and "The Perfect Storm," in which the heroes' minimal romantic interests are compartmentalized in the tiniest of boxes. There are movies like "Spider-Man" and "Pearl Harbor," in which the hero has a definite interest in a girl but turns down the opportunity to have sex with her. There are movies like "Vanilla Sky," in which the hero's interest in sex gets him killed; and movies like "What Women Want," in which the hero's interest in sex is considered a major flaw that needs a radical reconstruction. There is "Shaft," in which the black private detective who's a sex machine with all the chicks has no sex on screen at all. And there is "Cast Away," in which the hero has a girlfriend but spends most of his screen time developing a relationship with a volleyball.

Yes, there are exceptions "About a Boy," for one but overall, there seems to be a prevailing political correctness that says adult male heterosexuality is dangerous, dysfunctional or ludicrous, and is best avoided. Why, even James Bond is labeled by his superiors as a misogynist and a dinosaur. (Female sexuality, on the other hand, from "Erin Brockovich" to "Tadpole," is liberating and empowering.)

Into this environment stepped Austin Powers, whose sexual ardor is on the ludicrous side. But what's different is that in his ludicrousness, Austin isn't desperate or needy or pathetic; he's cheerful, he's happy, he's a life force. One of the brilliant inspirations Mike Myers came up with for the first movie, "Austin Powers: International Man of Mystery" (1997), was Austin's having been frozen decades before, enabling him to emerge as a full-blown 60's figure in the 1990's. One of the first things he says upon defrosting, and learning that the cold war is just one of the pillars of his world that have collapsed, is, "That's O.K. as long as people are still having promiscuous sex with many anonymous partners without protection, I'll be sound as a pound."

The line is hugely funny, and just as sobering. Austin is blissfully oblivious to the downsides of sexual liberation that we havelearned in the last decades. But there is also the sense that in seeing Austin, we're seeing a lost innocence about sex, a lost playfulness. Over the course of the film, that playfulness wins out. Austin is teamed up with the beautiful agent Vanessa Kensington (Elizabeth Hurley), a no-nonsense professional who finds Austin's persistent "Do I make you horny, baby?" approaches too gauche for words. But he eventually wins her over, admittedly with the aid of Burt Bacharach's music, the party game Twister and a big bottle of champagne. Soon Vanessa's playing right along with the broad, goofy sex jokes that seem to have tickled everyone short of the Taliban.

Austin is less sexy in his second movie, "Austin Powers: The Spy Who Shagged Me" (1999), primarily because Dr. Evil has stolen Austin's mojo, the very life force that sparks his libido. But his diminished ardor aside, the movie's approach to sex is different in other ways. Austin's love interest, the American agent Felicity Shagwell (Heather Graham), is every bit as liberated as Austin, but the sex isn't always for fun. She also uses it more cynically, in furtherance of the mission, to plant a homing device on the odious Fat Bastard. It's not that Austin is above having sex with Dr. Evil's henchbabes. But when he has sex with Ivana Humpalot, it's more about the fun. The second movie is weaker in other ways. The joke quotient is lower, and the bathroom humor gets out of control.

The new movie is the weakest of the lot. It features a number of crowd-pleasing cameos by Tom Cruise and Gwyneth Paltrow and other stars, but overall there's a sense that in adding and exploring other characters, Mike Myers is losing touch with what made the Austin Powers character work to begin with. Beyonc Knowles is on hand to supply the eye candy, but Austin has no real relationship with her character, Foxxy Cleopatra. Instead, the movie is about Austin's relationship with his father and his long-lost brother.

Thus Austin joins the rest of this summer's family men: the celibate Peter Parker, who lost his uncle in "Spider-Man"; Anakin Skywalker, who lost his mother in "Star Wars: Episode II Attack of the Clones"; Tom Cruise's divorced cop, who lost his son in "Minority Report"; Chris Rock's street agent, who lost his street-wise brother in "Bad Company"; and the very protective widowed dads played by Mel Gibson and Tom Hanks in "Signs" and "Road to Perdition," respectively.

Mike Myers is going to be able to make these films forever, but he should be careful because the character and the series can still be saved. Like James Bond, Austin Powers was a revolutionary cultural figure, and like James Bond, he's now just part of the pack.
Coma123
 

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