Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

[Unregistered(d)]

Very good point concerning ER and their lesbian characters, IvanovaDv. This book was written last year before the nastiness started with Kerry, although I should point out that she has never been the best liked character to her staff. This does bring up another point though, since the book my partner and I have written is a lesbian coming out guide, can anyone think of one lesbian character on TV now that is not in the "evil lesbian" category? If not I guess I will just have to site "Will and Grace"

[imperfectly]

Brilliant. This is better than most of the womens studies texts I read in college. Insightful, concise, thorough. See, ME, lesbians [i:5a6f974b7c] are[/i:5a6f974b7c] capable of dealing with rage and hurt in a rational way.

Many thanks to Willowlicious and Kyraroc.

[Verdant]

Thanks for posting this FAQ. It's reassuring to have all my emotional turmoil put into consise paragraphs. I find it very hard to sustain anger and the Kitten board was just very, very angry. Rightly so. But still hard to take. I lurk a lot and post a little.

As a writer/creator myself, I can understand ME's claims of serving the overall story. As a purely objective viewer I'm riveted to the screen to see what happens next. Kind of like watching a train wreck. But as a lesbian I'm sad and hurt and yes, angry, that they did not realize what they had in Willow and Tara and treat it with more respect.

I'm working on an article about Buffy season 6 and the treatment of Willow/Tara and the dead lesbian cliche vs. creator vision. The essay/article is a way for me to explore my own feelings as well as educate others. I would like to quote this FAQ if possible. Would that be okay?

[WebWarlock]

Verdant,

I am sure we would also love to see whatever you have writen.


Amy and Karoc,

An update needs to added. Fury admitted to the cliche.


Warlock

[kyraroc]

What was the exact quote said by David Fury?

(Verdant, feel free to quote the FAQ - it's meant to be spread around.)

--- KR

[tyche]

Kyraroc, the exact Fury quote:
[quote:81200de5b8][b:81200de5b8][i:81200de5b8]Quote:[/i:81200de5b8][/b:81200de5b8]

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In retrospect, I can see the cliche'. That was not our intent, we wanted to show them together and happy. We dramatized them being back together, it created the imperssion in a lot of ppls mind that the event of her death was linked to them having sex. I do understand it, I say oh yeah. It was not intended, we make mistakes.

---

[/quote:81200de5b8]
So they could see that it was cliched AFTER deciding to do the storyline, but not before? Yeah, whatever.

Also, another niggly grammar thing: I think it might sound better to say that Willow has been tormented 'more than' any other character in the history of the show. (Actually, on that issue, I would say that Buffy has been tortured just as much, but she doesn't really have a choice in the matter, since it goes with the Slayer gig. Willow CHOSE to be a part of the mission of her own free will. So everything she's had to suffer is a direct result of signing up for the fight against evil.)
And I was wondering if this is the BtVS attempt to reinforce societal 'norms'. I remember quite a bit of stuff about this from college (I did a melodrama option, which oddly enough is quite helpful at the moment), and one thing which struck me is that straight white men control the conditions of production in the film and TV industry. They then, consciously or unconsciously, attempt to reinforce that 'norm' through the messages they send in their products. For example, a film or TV show might demonstrate the consequences of deviating from the norm: i.e. characters who attempt to lead an alternative lifestyle end up dead or miserable as punishment for their actions. 'Women's pictures' of the 40s and 50s (e.g. 'Stella Dallas') attempted to reinforce the (then) societal norms for women - women couldn't work and raise a family, couldn't be overtly sexual etc. The producers of BtVS, whether they realise it or not, are buying into this and reinforcing the myth that, if you try to be outside the social 'norm' (the 'norm' in this case being straight), you will be punished.
*sigh*

[Dave V]

[quote:5c1faa3ed4][b:5c1faa3ed4][i:5c1faa3ed4]Quote:[/i:5c1faa3ed4][/b:5c1faa3ed4]

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So they could see that it was cliched AFTER deciding to do the storyline, but not before? Yeah, whatever.

---

[/quote:5c1faa3ed4]
Tyche, you point out their inconsistency. How can Petrie say 2 years ago that they're "hyper-aware" of the clich, yet now Fury says "it was not intended" and they "make mistakes."

It's spin. They knew EXACTLY what they were doing, and they CHOSE to go this route to serve an unworthy story.

[scifiacid]

Just wanted to add my glowing praise. This FAQ is fantastic. Well written with clear points to back up everything. I've especially loved the feedback and talk generated from the initial posting.

Kudos!

Also, regarding 'putting it up'. I would love, with permission, to post it on Extra Flamey as well. I've always wanted to bolster the essay portion of the site, Bob's Guide to Writing Willow seems so lonely, and the FAQ would be a welcome addition.

Anyway, I hope this does get back to Joss and ME. All the points about how they have subverted clich after clich is probably what disturbs me the most about what they've done... because they CAN do it differently, and HAVE!

Adrienne

[kyraroc]

Scifiacid - Feel free to post it there; please just attribute where it comes from.

Tyche - One of the points you raise was also mentioned to me by a friend of mine, and rings true; the "dead/evil lesbian" cliche may owe as much to the "bad girls must be punished" cliche seen so often in old movies (i.e., girls who, say, smoke and like sex are doomed to die) as it does to the "minorities must be evil or dead" cliche . . . making it kind of a combination double whammy, which may be one reason it's so depressingly widespread . . .

Wonder if there's still room in the FAQ for a mention of that.

--- KR

[AutumnT]

"The core of this series, emotionally, is a very safe place."
--Joss Whedon, [i:411acf1e3e] Juice[/i:411acf1e3e] March 2000

Whatever.

[Willowlicious]

[quote:ee459365ec][b:ee459365ec][i:ee459365ec]Quote:[/i:ee459365ec][/b:ee459365ec]

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Also, another niggly grammar thing: I think it might sound better to say that Willow has been tormented 'more than' any other character in the history of the show. (Actually, on that issue, I would say that Buffy has been tortured just as much, but she doesn't really have a choice in the matter, since it goes with the Slayer gig. Willow CHOSE to be a part of the mission of her own free will. So everything she's had to suffer is a direct result of signing up for the fight against evil.)

---

[/quote:ee459365ec]

Well, if it makes you feel better, Tyche, I'll change the phrasing. I'm all about making Kittens feel better this week. This started out as just a couple of posts and unexpectedly grew to academic proportions practically overnight. We will continue to weed out "niggly" wording and add things as we go along.

As for Buffy having suffered as much as Willow, I'm of the belief that Willow has suffered more. As you pointed out, Buffy is The Chosen One. She has a birthright. Buffy's life may be shitty, but at least she's the Slayer. Buffy's role as the Slayer provides solace in that it is a noble calling that demands respect and accolades from friends and foes. It is a destiny.

Willow, on the other hand, has always toiled in the shadows.
She freely gave up her future to fight at Buffy's side and has, sadly, paid for that decision with her life. The magickal abilities she developed have saved Buffy and the others, but, of course, have led to Willow losing everything. Instead of accolades, she gets glib moralizing from her friends. Instead of solace, devastation and loss. Her destiny is apparently pain, misery and unfulfillment.

And Willow has such a big heart. All of this just makes me ache for her.

Willow has always been available to Buffy as a friend. Many times, Buffy has suffered alone because she was too arrogantly focused on being "The Slayer," and fixated on the mistaken idea that nobody could understand her. The times Buffy has been alone, have most often been because she turned away from Willow's outstretched hand. Willow was a good friend throughout Buffy's problems with Angel and with Faith, even if Buffy was too self-centered to realize it at first.

But Willow has always been left alone even though she actively sought the companionship and comfort of her friends. Xander ignored her throughout high school. Buffy ignored her throughout college. In "Something Blue," even though Willow clearly stated she needed help from her friends, Buffy and Xander were bored with her pain and left her to suffer. Typically, at the end of the episode, instead of B/X apologizing to Willow for hurting her, it was Willow who was left apologizing.

In "Seeing Red," when Tara told Willow that Buffy was sleeping with Spike, after her momentary shock, her first words were, "I bet (Buffy) really needs someone to talk to." Again, Buffy was wrapped up in her own world, refusing to acknowledge the fiercely loyal friend she has in Willow, and Willow's first thoughts were to help Buffy.

So, in my book, Buffy suffers because she wants to not because she has to. Willow is always left twisting in the wind. Willow has been loyal and lonely the entire series. She has also been used and abused by her friends. Now, she has lost the only person that ever truly loved her, Tara, and is being consumed by magick...while Buffy and Xander get to moralize.

Whatever.

I love Willow. Period.

I'm sorry that Joss Whedon seems to hate her.

Amy

[scifiacid]

Damn Amy, well said!

[tommo]

[quote:45809efa1c][b:45809efa1c][i:45809efa1c]Quote:[/i:45809efa1c][/b:45809efa1c]

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[b:45809efa1c] And Willow has such a big heart. All of this just makes me ache for her.[/b:45809efa1c]

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[/quote:45809efa1c]

Excellent analysis, Amy. Your above quote pretty much sums Willow up for me, I think. She's [b:45809efa1c] always[/b:45809efa1c] been there for Buffy; I mean, her gut reaction in [b:45809efa1c] Seeing Red[/b:45809efa1c] when she found out about Buffy and Spike was that Buffy might need someone to talk to. And I bet she was feeling guilty that she hadn't been there to do just that.

God, this kills me. Willow. Synonymous with big love. You know the one. Red hair. Talks a lot.

Someone ought to remind ME of just who that person is, because it looks like they don't know anymore. I simply cannot reconcile this Willow with that dark avenging [i:45809efa1c] thing[/i:45809efa1c] that we're supposed to be watching right now.

[WebWarlock]

Wont do any good Ruth.

See they took that loving heart of Willow's, ripped it out, stomped on it and then showed it to her while convincing her it was all her own fault.

Warlock

[Unregistered(d)]

I noticed someone put a link to the FAQ at the Corona COming Attractions site. The person is defending the FAQ against some pretty piss-weak arguments but I'm sure they could use some back-up if anyone is interested in helping....(and really that what the FAQ is about)

www.corona.bc.ca/films/mainFramed.html

[scifiacid]

Where exactly in the site is it listed?

[BytrSuite]

I think they mean here. It's in the message boards they have listed there.

I'm so weird. I'll go and look for this, find it, post the link, but not read it myself. I drive myself crazy sometimes.

[Willowlicious]

The FAQ has been updated to include David Fury's quote about the lesbian cliche. It is under Question #6.

Amy

[WebWarlock]

Glad to see the update Amy.

This is a great piece of work.

Warlock

[murph the smurf]

I voiced my praise for the FAQ just after the first draft was posted and at the risk of being repetitive I just wanted to say a huge thank you for a wonderfully concise and sound essay.

This FAQ needs to be distributed widely as it actually has the power to provoke change in opinion. Even if ME don't want to rise to the challenge of defending their actions (David Fury seems to think a simple "Duh, we didn't know, we made a mistake" will suffice), the more fans of the show who are made aware of this huge fuck up the better. Chances are the vast majority of BtVS viewers have never even heard of or considered the lesbian cliche. (In fact I introduced both my gf and another lesbian friend to the phenomenon after it became a topic of conversation at the Kitten). It is important that those fans who are vanishing up Joss' ass, are shown that far from being creative, dramatic writing, this is merely a re-run of this tired and worn cliche.

Sorry for the graphic image of Joss' ass but I felt the need for lurid illustration

On a final note of praise for the FAQ, I'd like to say that I have already printed out two copies. One for distribution amongst my friends and the other for my own resource library. (Don't worry, I always cite my sources )

[stephenboothuk]

Cool. I'll update the copy on my site.

In case anyone's interested according to my hit counter about a third of the hits I'm getting are via links from the Corona forum and slightly more from Television Without Pity.

I've also added a links section to the foot of the page

Stephen

[FuBard]

I myself had never heard of the lesbian cliche... until Rob Tapert and X:WP came along. Having been an avid fan of that series and its initial view of strong women and especially the lesbian subtext, I was quite angry when Tapert killed the relationship and went over to misogyny, misery, and death for the strong women. My first encounter with the lesbian cliche came in discussions about what happened to Xena and Gabrielle.

I started watching Buffy (which my wife had been watching already) when "Hush" aired... solely to see if Joss truly would introduce a lesbian relationship and how he would treat it. For over 2 years now I (stupidly) allowed myself to fall in love with what was the most beautiful and fulfilling lesbian love I (or anyone) had ever seen on television. To have Whedon and company destroy it the way they have, to have them take the quick and easy path, to have them use the lesbian cliche and bring it about in the most glaringly heinous example yet seen on television after they swore they were 'hyper-aware' of and sensitive to it and would never use it... well, it hurts me horribly to say the least, as I know it hurt all of you.

I want to thank you people again who got this FAQ together. If the legacy of Willow and Tara does nothing else, perhaps through this FAQ and discussion on Buffy boards and other places, just perhaps some people will be educated about what the lesbian cliche is, how Joss used it, and why it is so harmful and damaging. And not only to lesbians and lesbian friendly people, but to society as a whole. You only have to glance at the boards and see the hate being spewed by the victorious homophobes to see this damage being done. Whedon has given them another load of ammunition to allow them to hurl their message of hate and vindication for their beliefs toward anyone who will listen.

Joss and company say it was not done to play the cliche, that it was done merely to advance a story. Well hate never needs to know the real reason, even if Joss were telling the truth (which we know he isn't anyway). Hateful homophobes will use this for a long time to come to justify the old 'lesbians are evil and will be punished for their freakish sex lives' mentality. And others who don't consciously see the cliche, will no doubt come away with a subliminal image of Tara's death and Willow's descent into evil coming IMMEDIATELY after their 24 hour sex fest. The tie-in is unavoidable.The damage is done, intentional or not. Those who hate have been givin everything they wanted. Well, almost everything. When Willow is talked down and declawed Tuesday night by Xander, the heterosexual man, then the haters will have been given everything they wanted. The evil lesbian who corrupted Willow is horribly killed, Willow goes insane as a punishment for her acceptance of the evil lesbian lifestyle, and, ultimately, it is, of course, a straight MAN who becomes the hero and destroys the cursed lesbian love story in the end.

Joss gave the 'phobes and those who hate EXACTLY what they wanted - total vindication of their hateful viewpoint. Then he and his cronies have the nerve to say that "we only saw it in retrospect" and "that's not what we intended."

Right.

IF anyone believes their excuse, would you please email me? I have some land in southern Louisiana that you are just going to love, that I am selling cheap. Or maybe I can interest you in the Brooklyn bridge? I can let you have it wholesale.

FuBard

[Beautiful Taras Girl]

Southern Louisiana? Really? Can I use PayPal?

Okay, I know I haven't been around for a while, and my user name on ezboard just sucks, but all I want to say (and I promise deep thoughts one of these days, is SCREW YOU STEVE DEKNIGHT.

[Unregistered(d)]

Nice post Fubard.

Yes. And let's not forget Willow's dreadful, ham-handed, expository revenge speech to Warren. Revealing him as a he-man woman hater extraordinaire. The Big Bad of the Y.

If that scene -- with Willow tracking down her "victimizer" in the dark woods and torturing him (ala the oh-so empowering [as Joss says] "I Spit On Grave" trashthriller) --if that doesn't cement the image of the evil/dead lesbian cliche in the minds of the audience, then nothing will.

Thanks for another well done turn on an old cliche.

Didn't think it could be done, but you guys (ME) managed to do it.

Drive'n that filthy old stake a little deeper into the mass consciousness. Bravo.

Next time I walk in the park alone...I'm gonna feel so empowered.

[AutumnT]

You know, I'm not fond of Deknight. At all. But I don't think using a sig in a threatening manner is a good idea. At all.

This thread is getting a lot of traffic. And it is, for the most part, a good representation of this community and expresses our feelings calmly. Can we please keep it that way?

[Jerry Priori]

I have been ranting and raving about the hideous representation of gay and lesbian images to anyone who will listen for some time now. BtVS was always my illustration of a homosexual relationship treated right, and the fairest representation of gay/lesbian images on television in the history of the medium.

How infuriating that people who have confessed to knowing better would stoop so low as to let their work descend into this most egregious clich. And I'm angry at their callous and flippant responses to upset fans.

Beyond merely pointing out the dead/evil lesbian clich, this FAQ brilliantly brings other issues pertaining to the show into relief--things that I had been blind to previously when I was praising the show to friends and family at how progressive it was. Every lesbian/gay character ends up dead or evil on this show. I'm also quite disturbed that Tara was the only Scooby significant other who didn't rate a credit in the main titles until the final episode. I found that "honor" to be mean-spirited and taunting.

I'm really sick and tired, as a gay man, at having to view everything in the popular culture through degrees of separation. I'm old enough to know better than to look for honest reflections of myself in the culture at large--I just turned thirty-five last week and in all those years I haven't seen any network characters I could directly relate to.

Straight friends of mine point out--as an apologetic--that hetero relationships on television aren't realistic either. That may be true, but usually I find that when straight relationships are portrayed in an unrealistic manner, it is to make them overly flattering--they get countless sitcoms and romantic comedies where the two-dimensional hetero protagonists may rib each other for their faults, but they're always idealized in some fashion. Gay relationships are never shown this way--unless they are completely sexless.

After the episode "Seeing Red" and last week's episode, I know that I'd love to do to Whedon and Company what Willow did to Warren. More aggravating than the KKKristian right who hate us so vocally and never let us forget that they prefer that we don't exist (or if we'd please at least have the common decency to shut-the-hell-up about ourselves), are these so-called liberal progressives who pretend to be on our side--and maybe they genuinely feel that they are--and yet go on to demonstrate how completely clueless and homophobic they really are by the choices they make. And then they turn around and act like we're the problem when they don't understand why we get all bent out of shape.

Until this season, BtVS was the best-written show on television in my opinion--the greatest show ever. Oh, how the mighty have fallen. When the best turns to crap, there's very little hope for the rest of it. I find that the shows that are more blatantly marketed at the homo crowd are just awful--"Will-N-Grace" is about as insulting to me as "Amos-N-Andy" was to African American audiences. And don't get me started on that Showtime drek, "Queer as Folk." It's not the drugs and the sex that bother me about that show, but it's just poorly written melodrama that pats itself on the back and thinks it's daring.

Anyway, is there any series television worth watching now that Buffy has jumped the shark? I'm not planning on watching next year--I've lost interest in anything that Joss Whedon or ME are involved with. This whole incident has soured me to the reruns as anything having to do with this whole mess leaves a bad taste in my mouth, so the DVD collections are out of the question.

Thanks so much for the FAQ. I'm sorry to read on other forums where it's posted that most people just don't get it at all. It's all really very alienating. I'm heartened to know that there are at least a few who reacted to the show the same way that I did.

-Jerry

[tommo]

Ah Jerry, you said so many things that I've talked to friends about. So true.

You're right; heterosexual relationships aren't portrayed realistically on television. But some of them might be; and let's face it, there's always plenty of opportunities to make it right with "the next one". Where do we get that with gay couples?

Answer: we don't.

[tyche]

I was talking to my fiance last night about how Spike managed to get to Africa in less than 24 hours on a motorbike by night... and we came to the conclusion that Sunnydale is not in California as we previously thought, but is in fact located in apartheid-era South Africa. Makes a lot of sense if you think about it...

[xita]

Yes tyche maybe it moves around in Africa and next year we'll get to see female genital mutilation!

[urnofosiris]

[quote:f2dc3bfc0d][b:f2dc3bfc0d][i:f2dc3bfc0d]Quote:[/i:f2dc3bfc0d][/b:f2dc3bfc0d]

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You're right; heterosexual relationships aren't portrayed realistically on television. But some of them might be; and let's face it, there's always plenty of opportunities to make it right with "the next one". Where do we get that with gay couples?

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[/quote:f2dc3bfc0d]

Indeed some heterosexual relationships are not portrayed realistically, but many are. Sometimes they end up badly, but many times they live happily ever after. Given the overwhelmingly huge amount of heterosexual relationships we see on tv and in the movies we are bound to see all aspects of said relationship. Not so for gay relationships. First of all they are vastly underrepresented and second, when we do see them they end badly. Always.

Willow and Tara *were* different. Their relationships, despite it's ups and downs was more positive than the heterosexual relationships of the show. That was so bloody fantastic. And what do they do? They literally kill the relationship, thereby negating the good they did. It would have been so nice if just *once* the gay couple got to live happily ever after. That would *not* have been a cliche, it had never been done before, killing them *is* a cliche, been there, done that.


Oh and Xita, ew. [img:f2dc3bfc0d]http://www.theunholytrinity.org/cracks_smileys/otn/sad/iiworry.gif[/img:f2dc3bfc0d]