New Essay / Response to "Slayer News" - Fi

[roamin]

So can we expect your alternate version of the season to appear as a fan fiction anytime soon ?

[urnofosiris]

[quote:12c36be1d9][b:12c36be1d9][i:12c36be1d9]Quote:[/i:12c36be1d9][/b:12c36be1d9]

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Edit: Also, it's sort of a dirty trick to imply that I want to call Amber Benson a liar

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[/quote:12c36be1d9]

Ah but I did get a feeling you are open tot that possibility when you made your snarky remark directed at me.

[quote:12c36be1d9][b:12c36be1d9][i:12c36be1d9]Quote:[/i:12c36be1d9][/b:12c36be1d9]

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And Dr. G tells us that Amber never lies, and I'm sure he must be the final word on such matters since he once stood in the same room as her. So what's the deal?

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[/quote:12c36be1d9]

Yeah I said that didn't I? I know Amber Benson never lied because I have been in the same room with her, I better go back and edit that post if only I could find it. All I said is that I was there when I heard her say what she did, I never heard or read any quote where she said she does not want to be in the credits. That quote you posted is the one that has been twisted by those who come here and tell us Amber did not want to be in the credits, she said so so quit being upset over the fact that she wasn't.

If we do twist words around to fit our own arguments then we certainly aren't the only ones as is clear by earlier discussion in this thread. Bob, you do think Joss Whedon is a homophobe don't you? Just come out and admit it man, saves a lot of time, it is not like saying you do not has been enough to stop anyone from believing you.

Bob, Xita, sorry, I was not trying to continue the talk about the credits issue, just clarifying what I said, if anyone would like to continue I also like to recommend the (angry) rant thread as well as the FAQ thread.

[Coma123]

I wonder how Amythyst would respond to Whedon not putting Amber into the credits for Villians. Honestly please try to defend that insult.

But onto more important points, how is the effort to get the essay out to the people going? Any leads by anyone? Are Slayage responding?

[SJ]

I've posted a link to Bob's essay on the feedback and suggestion forum under the topic "The Other Side" on the buffyupn website.

[xita]

Thanks coma, I think that discussion has now moved over to the angry rant thread

*steers the crows over that way..

SJ, thanks for passing the word on the essay!

[Hair Annoyed]

I hadn't intended to read this thread. Then I read about the "dust-up" going on here in another thread and came over to see what was going on. I skimmed the essay and found it contained the same old arguements that I already agreed with so I don't really have anything to add there. But the thing that struck me is the statement that the arguements by our opponents amounts to them saying that Joss' choice was the best because Joss made it. You know, that sounds an awful lot like the philosophy that Voltaire's "Candide" was written to refute. The arguement goes something like this: "God is all good and all knowing. God cannot make a mistake. If given a choice, He would always make the best choice. Of all possible worlds that God had to chose from, God chose this one. Therefore, this must be the best of all possible worlds." Now, this philosophy is repeated again and again even as Candide and his cohorts go through terrible misfortune time and again until even its stauchest supporters is convinced that it is ridiculous. Even for people who believe that Joss is God, the idea that this was the best of all possible storylines simply because this is the one Joss choose has to be seen as idiotic. I mean, really, do many of them think this a valid arguement or is it just this Ang person?

[Hemiola]

Roamin: I'm still waiting for my "Tara returns as the Buddhist/Hindu Goddess Tara" fiction to be written up by one of our talented authors .
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"See how the Fates their gifts alot,
A is happy, B is not!"
W.S. Gilbert

[Coma123]

Wow Hair Annoyed what a quote. Thats great. See thats the problem I think we have, or as Bob put it, the Emperor has no clothes.....

[BBOvenGuy]

[quote:d563480624][b:d563480624][i:d563480624]Quote:[/i:d563480624][/b:d563480624]

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Originally posted by Hair Annoyed:
[b:d563480624] Even for people who believe that Joss is God, the idea that this was the best of all possible storylines simply because this is the one Joss choose has to be seen as idiotic. I mean, really, do many of them think this a valid argument or is it just this Ang person?[/b:d563480624]

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[/quote:d563480624]

Yes, they really do think it's a valid argument. Scary, isn't it? There's an inconsistency to it that these people don't even see. They criticize us for being nave enough to believe Mutant Enemy when they said Tara wasn't going anywhere, yet they themselves swallow Joss's argument that the direction he took the story was the best way for it to go.

The people who have written to me typically believe that (a) Joss, or any other writer, has no responsibility to the audience, (b) Joss has every right to lie about what he's planning and (c) the story Joss chose had to have been the best one, simply because he chose it. They're willing to set Joss up - as you said - as God, this mighty being who sits on high and deigns to throw us the crumbs of his creative magnificence, and we puny mortals should be grateful to lap up every one.

It's pretty sad, really.

[Kendahl897]

Yeah Bob, but if you look at the bright side, that number seems to be dwindling, at least if ratings and critics are any indication. As far as the naive part, believe me they would be screaming to hell and back if anything happened to their beloved Spike or other favorite character....I can't wait to see the season premiere numbers as compared to last year. I think th WB and ABC are going to be chipping away at Buffy's numbers even more this season. Remember, that 5% drop during last season occurred BEFORE they killed Tara and alienated about 10% of their audience, some of us who happen to be Neilsen households...........

[Sheridan]

I get the impression that a lot of these peoples aren't reading and responding to the content of the essays as much as they are reacting to the [b:84e254c203] existence[/b:84e254c203] of the essays. Maybe Joss is a genius, but that's not the same as being infallible. he got carried away with an image and couldn't see the signs that it wasn't a good idea. The last essay made a very good case for an alternate approach.

[emma peel]

I'm beginning to realize that Bob is the one who is really the true genius. Really!!!
Janice

[Ben Varkentine]

As indicated upwards in this thread, I wonder if a lot of people didn't look to Whedon to see how they should respond to the essays, etc. Since he focused on (not that he used these words) "those crazy lesbians," they did too.

Yet I also think that if anything could have saved last season (and that's a big if) it would have been more participation by Whedon as a writer. Over on the Buffy Usenet newsgroup I came up with a parallel I'm just a little bit proud of...

Buffy S6 (and probably S7 and beyond?) equals a post mid-to-late '70s Beach Boys concert.

Their auteur having abandoned them, a bunch of
undeniably talented but not genius craftspeople are left who lack the vision to move forward gracefully.

Their vehicle stalled before the eyes of an increasingly frustrated audience, they may go on to do interesting
stuff in the future, but having disappointed their public so bitterly, will rarely if ever recapture the magic.

[EffieBlue]

I understand what you are saying Ben....however i see the problem lying more with the fact that Joss hasn't quite let go of the reins.. He has...and he hasn't.....run it along the lines of Anyas reaction to Giles and the magic shop...is Giles going or isn't he....can those ready to take Joss' place get on with their interpretation of the show or can't they???....
Over-all we are told that it was Joss' idea to kill Tara....he had his vision....plus his desire to have a major character put in the opening credits for the first time and kill them in the same episode....as we know Tara was supposed to be killled much earlier in the show but it kept being put off....by the time it came round to Joss's "amazing vision" he was already pulling away from the show. Then would have been the time for the replacement execs and writers to stand up to him and say "No". but because of his continously ambiguous relationship with the show no one seemed to have had the balls to do so...after all as it still stands..it's still Joss' show...or is it?....It seems to me that it's Joss who's saying it's over for Tara...his decision.. do we want Joss to continue part time to decide on what happens in our show ..or do we need him to move on to his new projects..isn't it time he gave us us what we need and not what we want??....Time to move on Joss...the story has to end some time...for you it's happened a bit sooner than the others....or has it?...yes it has.

[BBOvenGuy]

[quote:60e8916ca7][b:60e8916ca7][i:60e8916ca7]Quote:[/i:60e8916ca7][/b:60e8916ca7]

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Originally posted by emma peel:
[b:60e8916ca7] I'm beginning to realize that Bob is the one who is really the true genius. Really!!![/b:60e8916ca7]

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[/quote:60e8916ca7]

Ummm... you wouldn't have any contacts in the publishing biz, would you?

[emma peel]

Nope, Bob. Sorry, but I don't. However, if I dd, you can bet your bottom dollar I'd do my darndest to get you to the front of the line!
Janice

[hilarita]

janice, ive got annie stuck in my head now.

[emma peel]

Umm, hilarita, I'm kinda blanking there regarding what I think is your "Annie" reference. Is that something from "Annie Get Your Gun?" or "Annie," the one with the song "Tomorrow" that keeps playing in my head now cause I'm not sure what you're referring to. Help me out here, please. Then I can just go say "duh" when you explain, ok?
Janice

[the literary exterminator]

``bet your bottom dollar'' is in the lyrics to ``Tomorrow''. As in, ``The sun'll come out / Tomorrow / Bet your bottom dollar / That tomorrow / There'll be sun!''

[emma peel]

I get it now, lit! Duh! Now I won't be able to get that out of my head, either.
Thanks!
Janice

[Coma123]

I think thats a really good point Effieblue and Ben, I really believe the show suffered because of the lack of clear leadership at the top. Its easy to blame Marti but to be honest I wouldn't say its totally her fault. She had to follow the story she was forced to. In fact a season that was totally under the control of Marti could be interesting, and knowing her history of 'projecting' I would doubt she would have been actively wanting to kill W/T.
The problem with season 6 especially after OMWF was that the writers had to get to a certain point but didn't know how to get there because Joss had obviously stopped them from following the 5 and 1/2 years of character growth and narrative it took to get there by forcing Tara's death and other such plot points on the characters. They were forced to take a different point becuase of that and it obviously failed badly as can be evidenced by the addiction storyline. If Joss had of been around or Marti had total control of the narrative then things might not have been so bad storywise throughout the season. Instead what we got was story arcs that were pieced together and obvious conflicts between the writers about were to go and what to do.
It does bring up the interesting question though as to how much input Whedon is going to have in the series this year?

[Sheridan]

it looked like the writers were workng on a coherent if dark storyline line right through to Smashed. Buffy was isolated and alienated but needing someone to share her pain with, and that turned out to be Spike. Spike was coming to terms with the effect of the chip, and his human side was asserting itself more and more. After resurrecting Buffy Willow was convinced there was no problem she couldn't fix with the right spell, which led to a inevitable escalation, why live with hurt or disappointment when you can banish it with a flick of the wrist, or a few well chosen words? Tara could see that Willow was in danger of losing herself in the magic, and I think she had seen that happen at least once before with her mother. She tried to reason with WIllow and when that didn't work she tired to shock her into stopping. This is why she says to Willow to just not use magic for a week, she isn't trying to cure an addict, she's trying to teach Willow control.

From Wrecked onwards its a completely different world. Buffy isn't isolated, she's just a mannequin. Spike throws away the very things that give him a chance of winning Buffy to become a thuggish abuser. Willow is just a whacked out junkie needing a fix and Tara just runs for cover and does nothing to help. It's like we were suddenly plunged into an AU midseason, or like Joss hadn't told the writers where he wanted the show to go and only at that point did he let them in on the big secret.

[Hair Annoyed]

[quote:d1630de296][b:d1630de296][i:d1630de296]Quote:[/i:d1630de296][/b:d1630de296]

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After resurrecting Buffy Willow was convinced there was no problem she couldn't fix with the right spell, which led to a [b:d1630de296] inevitable[/b:d1630de296] escalation, why live with hurt or disappointment when you can banish it with a flick of the wrist, or a few well chosen words?

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[/quote:d1630de296]

This is exactly the problem with the second half of the season. There wasn't a sense of inevitablity in any of the actions of the characters. The characterization should dictate the action, but instead the action dictated the characterization. Instead of misusing power Willow which would follow logically from all we know about her, we get addict Willow which came out of nowhere and was probably just written to give Willow an "out" for committing murder. The vigilante killing of Warren would put Willow's character in a place that she would never go on her own. They needed to drive her to it. Killing Tara was the emotional catalyst, but they need something more, some inherent weakness in regards to magic but something that would be forgivable, maybe even garner some sympathy, since they didn't want to actually make Willow seem evil. Thus, we get magic addition. This then neccessitates Willow having an addictive personality which she doesn't or at least never did before Season Sux. Therefore, the action of killing Warren dictated the change in Willow's characterization. The plot overroad the characterization, and that is, I believe, the very definition of the word melodrama.

[DianaBouvier99]

<quote>Remember, that 5% drop during last season occurred BEFORE they killed Tara and alienated about 10% of their audience, some of us who happen to be Neilsen households........... <quote/>

A new Neilsen Family poking her head out to say I've already locked all of UPN and WB out of my system so no mistakes will be made. No Angel, No Buffy, No Firefly, No Joss. (If I could find a way to lock out Fox and still watch Football I would!

[WebWarlock]

DianaBouvier99,

Please move to the front of the line. You will get special treatment from now from me!

Bless your heart.

If you have a satalite system or digital cable you can still get most sports on their specialty sports channels.

Warlock

[roamin]

[quote:fd959d7215][b:fd959d7215][i:fd959d7215]Quote:[/i:fd959d7215][/b:fd959d7215]

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A new Neilsen Family poking her head out to say I've already locked all of UPN and WB out of my system so no mistakes will be made

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[/quote:fd959d7215]

Brava to you!! You're great!

I will though, make a plug for Gilmore Girls - I've been watching it this summer and it's great! So if you do find Tuesday's at 8 a little empty - give the GG's a try, and then you can really stick it to Joss by helping to increase the numbers of Buffy's main competiton.

[Sheridan]

From Joss' perspective that is the probblem with the 'natural' evolution of the DMW. With Tara's death and the addiction storyline Willow can be absolve dof guilt for her actions. Imagine if you simply ahve a Willow becoming more and more carried away with the magic, and Tara safe and well. What would happen if Willow then went after the Troika to protect the others and decided to stop them at any price? Then you have no get out, you have to actually deal with her actions and her guilt at losing sight of the consequences of her actions.

[Hair Annoyed]

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you have to actually deal with her actions and her guilt at losing sight of the consequences of her actions.

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[/quote:bd31c0fd8f]

Can't they see that that would make a much better story? Do they just lack the self confidence in their own abilites to tell that story? Or do they just lack said ability?

[Sheridan]

[quote:7583b69007][b:7583b69007][i:7583b69007]Quote:[/i:7583b69007][/b:7583b69007]

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Do they just lack the self confidence in their own abilites to tell that story? Or do they just lack said ability?

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[/quote:7583b69007]

A little from column A a little from column B....

[BBOvenGuy]

I've been getting no email about this new essay so far. I know DrLloyd put the teaser up at the C&S (thanks!) and it got some good responses. Has it been sent to the usual round of folks (TVGal, Wanda, etc.)?

How are we doing?