Skip to content


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

DO NOT POST - BACKUP IN PROGRESS

Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby Selar » Sun May 19, 2002 8:57 am

There's only one example of a 'happy ever after' lesbian romance on a prime time TV series - and the States don't get to see it.

It's the Helen & Nikki storyline from the primetime UK drama Bad Girls. After three years the two actresses decided that they wanted to leave the show and the storyline ended on a happy note with the two of them making up and walking off into the sunset together (well, really, last seen kissing on a London street).

I'm [i:483813fd77] still[/i:483813fd77] hoping for a happy ending for W&T.
Selar
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby StarWitch » Sun May 19, 2002 12:16 pm

Thanks selar.....you made me smile. I played that last episode over and over! :) :)

With regard to BtVS....I'm not really angry anymore. Just extremely disappointed that many of us as gay people have been let down. REALLY let down. We've been treated as those who don't matter yet again.

ME, you might have got your figures but you're going to lose a big chunk of your audience. And I hope it hits you damn hard.

Sending love to all kitties...... :love
StarWitch
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby Killin Joke » Sun May 19, 2002 5:05 pm

Oh... my... goddesses... I was just going to post about "Bad Girls" but it seems Selar got to it first, and how... Titannical spoiler ! We've only seen the first two seasons of this BBC-series in Belgium yet, but with the depressive W/T-posts, and me being a spoilerslut anyway, I could use some good news. Selar, you just made my day, uh, night :) If you ever get the chance to see this show, go for it. Okay, maybe it falls a bit into the evil lesbians-clich... Hello ! Women behind bars -> bad girls <G> But with what Selar just typed, let's say I have renewed hope: that people can change, turn their lives around, one mistake doesn't have to mean the end,... (Alrightie, Nikki Wade doesn't really fall into that category, coz it seemed like self-defence, or rather, the defense of her girlfriend against being raped by a police officer -> yeah, there you have that vengeance aspect again). I was worried for a sec, with the cliffhanger at the end of the 2nd season, and I've read some spoilers about a rape attempt by Fenner, directed at Helen Steward -> would definitely have consequences: revenge by Nik again. So it really is a happy ending, huh. Almost too good to be true. I was surprised in the first place that they decided to make the warden fall in love with one of her inmates, her fiancee left her for it (memorable scene)... I taped a couple of the hottest eps for a friend in the Netherlands, and she loved it so much, she bought the DVDs. Just goes to show: great tip.
On-topic then: FAQ-report: Wow ! Wonderfully written... which is weird, being enthusiastic, considering the sad subject. Very true, though, if you come to think of it. Another example I noticed (I hate it, another one to add to the list) was in the series "Mortal Kombat Conquest" Before you start laughing at me, I realize it's a lame show... I wonder why I ever watched a few eps... Oh, that's right, because of the foxy redhead that played in it, Taja, the thief. <G> Anyway, they showed a couple of evil lesbians in it too, and surprise, surprise, one of 'm died: the other one hooked up with a man afterwards (she was bi all along, not that it matters that much). Talking about Bad Girls, there's also a movie called like that (tv-movie I think), about a bunch of girls in a reform school. One of them was straight, the other a lesbian: the lines are blurry, not really the point. The lesbian had suffered fysical abuse, and they have this tender sexscene, which is of course pointed out by the authority as bad. /sigh/ It's good to read a lot of examples in the dissertation: I recognized a lot of films I already saw (Yay me ! I'm moving up in the world !) but also a couple of new titles: good to know. Good references are hard to find: I saw "But I'm a cheerleader" but I'm still not sure what to make of it. I mean, as much as I love Clea Duvall (hated how they made her cool character Stokeley sooo pathetic in the end: flowery dress, pullover, instead of black: ok, I could oversee that, but: with that former jock-guy: uck) Where was I going with this ? Oh yeah, I think it was supposed to be a bit of a parody, and in that case they succeeded, but I wondered if it didn't mock the gay community too much, made fun of it, even unintended. Either way, I was glad to see the girls together in the end, alive and well. Ecstatic song by Tattle Tale BTW: would work perfectly for a W/T-scene. "Better than chocolate" (great song by Sarah McLachlan, my favourite singer-songwriter too) also had a happy ending, but somehow the emotional involvement doesn't run as deep as with W/T. The characters there aren't really that indepth developed, if you know what I mean. Still, good attempt, but Will and Tara: that felt sooo real, sooo right... It transcended everything. /comfie hugs, before crawling off to bed: damn, the birds start singing already/
Killin Joke
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby Rally » Sun May 19, 2002 8:13 pm

Killin Joke, as a friendly hrmmm suggestion for the future, ya might want to introduce yourself to this guy named the paragraph.
Rally
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby murph the smurf » Mon May 20, 2002 12:10 am

Bad Girls!! God, I loved that show. Me and my mum used to tape it every week and stay up and watch it together after everyone else had gone to bed. Ah memories.

As for "But I'm A Cheerleader" I don't think it mocked the gay community too much at all. It's important not to take yourself too seriously and be able to laugh at yourself. I've introduced the film to a bunch of my gay friends and they've all loved it. As long as you don't take it too seriously it works well. Also the main couple are very cute together. (Anyone else think Clea Duvall is hot? My gf says I'm crazy.)

BTW [b:2db8bfa878] StarWitch[/b:2db8bfa878] awesome sig. My favourite band ever and that quote comes from their best album and one of their greatest tracks. (IMHO) :shy
murph the smurf
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby Killin Joke » Mon May 20, 2002 1:15 am

Doh ! So sorry about that, Rally ! Me and Mister Paragraph are well acquainted. We just don't get along that nicely this time of year -> exam period: really tough/rough, so I'm hanging out with Miss Chaotic Rant, right now <G> I apologize wholeheartedly for babbling along and by doing so coming across as obnoxious. /pushes "enter"/

Glad you also like Bad Girls, Murph. Quite a lot of people I know seem to do: friends, aunt, my sister saw an ep and found it to be extremely funny :)

Thanks for giving your opinion on "But I'm a cheerleader". Personally, I rather enjoyed it (yeah, might have something to do with the hotness of Clea <sheepish G>) after you're familiar with the tone of the movie. It's so over the top, but the point comes across, and being a Xena-fan, I never shined away from things blown out of proportion. I was just wondering what others thought about it, whether they were a lil offended or not, that's all. I agree: self-irony's a must sometimes (I mean, look at my nickname). Humour can be used as a weapon at all times ;)
Killin Joke
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby StephenDeKnightIsAPrick » Mon May 20, 2002 1:57 am

[quote:d01536f1ac][b:d01536f1ac][i:d01536f1ac]Quote:[/i:d01536f1ac][/b:d01536f1ac]
More aggravating than the KKKristian right who hate us so vocally and never let us forget that they prefer that we don't exist (or if we'd please at least have the common decency to shut-the-hell-up about ourselves), are these so-called liberal progressives who pretend to be on our side--and maybe they genuinely feel that they are--and yet go on to demonstrate how completely clueless and homophobic they really are by the choices they make. And then they turn around and act like we're the problem when they don't understand why we get all bent out of shape.
[/quote:d01536f1ac]

I agree. It's the people who make themselves out to be so caring and understanding about gay issues who are the worst. ME keeps patting themselves on the back for having a lesbian relationship, and I think they don't realise that having the relationship end with one dead and one bad. (not evil, Willow is NOT EVIL) is worse, because it gives us hope and then it takes it away.

I love But I'm a Cheerleader. Natasha Lyonne...yum. American Pie alumni sure do make good lesbians.
StephenDeKnightIsAPrick
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby Killin Joke » Mon May 20, 2002 2:05 am

Was Natasha in American Pie too ? Damn, didn't know her then yet... It's funny really: I don't think I would go out to watch movies, like AP, Bring it on!,... on the big screen, if it wasn't for Aly, Eliza,... :)
Killin Joke
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby Selar » Mon May 20, 2002 11:44 am

I'm so sorry Killin Joke. We are now nearing the end of the Season 4 here in the UK and the Canadians have already seen 10 eps from the season 4 too, so I just didn't think that the season 3 would be a spoiler stuff for anyone.

And, yes, it most definitelly had a very happy ending for Helen and Nikki. Wanna see a pic of the last kiss? .....spoiler warning................................ www.badgirlsonline.co.uk/cast/screenies/3_16/s3_ep16_138.jpg + www.badgirlsonline.co.uk/cast/screenies/3_16/s3_ep16_150.jpg.

Btw, Helen and Nikki may have left, but a lesbian storyline didn't disappear from the Bad Girls. We just have a new couple. :)

Finally, the Season 3 has been released on video and DVD.
Selar
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby Killin Joke » Mon May 20, 2002 12:09 pm

Nooo, Selar ! Sweetie, don't be sorry... It felt rrreally good to hear some great news for a change. I didn't realize you guys were that far already: enjoy ! UK ROCs ! Thanks for the links to the wonderful pics (second one was funny: I can already see Helen's reaction when Nikki pulls her in that corner /chuckle/) and the uplifting info of the show and DVD-release. FINALLY someone had the guts to go all the way and overcome the clich. And the best part of all is, the saga continues. They have back-up: love it ! :)
Killin Joke
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby murph the smurf » Mon May 20, 2002 12:26 pm

Thanks for the awesome pics [b:ca6bc96ef1] Selar[/b:ca6bc96ef1]. I've been living out here in the US for almost 2 years so I haven't been able to keep up with Bad Girls. I'm going back to Scotland in a week so some DVD purchases may be in order :)

So good to see that at least one TV show got it right. I had so much faith in ME but I guess that's where being an optimist gets you :( I think I'm going to go away and work on my cynical side.
murph the smurf
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby Rally » Mon May 20, 2002 3:18 pm

I felt compelled to repost this from another forum. Just as a reminder of why a calm, precise message is required. As opposed to hysterics and angry hate filled statements.

------

Hetero Cliche' Rant

For a while, I have been suspecting that ME were huge heterophobes. I now believe I was right and have compiled all the information I need to prove it.

Back in Season One :

Xander gets a heterosexual crush on Ms. French, as many teenagers are known to do during high school. Of course, since ME are such heterophobes, this could only end in mayhem, so Ms. French was revealed to be an insane, evil praying mantis, and Xander almost died of his heterosexual crush.

Willow meets Malcolm on the internet, and falls in love with him. She is automatically punished by Malcolm being a evil demon, who then tried to kill her. So Willow was almost killed because of her heterosexual love. At the end of the episode, Buffy, Willow and Xander all muse on their heterosexual love life. They all come to the conclusion that they will never have a steady loving relationship, which is obvious, because ME are such heterophobes.

Season Two :

Probably the greatest and most outrageous statement made by ME :
Heterosexual sex will turn you into an evil, insane murderer. Buffy finally sleeps with Angel, AND AS A DIRECT RESULT OF THE HETEROSEXUAL ACT Angel loses his soul, murders people, tortures others, and in the end has to be
killed. So not only is Buffy punished for having heterosexual sex by having her murder her former lover, but so is Angel, who is sent to a hell dimension for hundreds of years.

Giles and Jenny fall in love, break up, and finally, on the day where they are about to get back together (as ME took precautions to mention) Jenny is brutally killed. Another proof that ME never wanted to deal with a healthy heterosexual couple.

The main villains in Season Twom, Spike and Drusilla, were in a heterosexual relationship, proving yet again that being heterosexual equates villainy and evilness.

Kendra died, and although it was never stated that she was heterosexual, we can only suppose she was, considering how flustered she became upon talking with Xander. The heterosexual woman bites it again.

Season Three :

Xander and Cordelia are having the perfect heterosexual romance, or are they? It becomes obvious that ME is incomfortable with that portrayal, so they have Cordelia violently skewered through the chest, as a direct result of
seeing Xander engage in yet another heterosexual fling. The message is there. Heterosexuality will kill you eventually. She then goes insane with rage, attracting demons wanting her to cast revenge of Xander. OF COURSE, the demon only curses men who wronged women, as a proof that heterosexuality kills.

Angel comes back in our dimension, and meets up with Buffy again. ME makes a point that they never can be together, because the heterosexual act could YET AGAIN, turn him into a ravaging monster. In the end, he is almost killed, and to allow him to live, Buffy is almost killed. Heterosexuals can
never be safe.

Pete and Debbie are a loving couple. Yet once we are allowed to peer into their disturbing selves, we notice that Pete is insane and evil, since he murders people ON BEHALF of his heterosexual relation, and Debbie is later
punished for loving him by dying. Pete also dies, because he was heterosexual.

Xander, while driving through town, saves Faith from a demon. Horny from the ordeal, they engage in heterosexual sex. The outcome ? ONE EPISODE LATER, Faith becomes evil, and the episode after, Xander is almost killed AS A DIRECT RESULT of that heterosexual encounter. Faith is later put in a coma, as she was a heterosexual lunatic.

Season Four :

Buffy moves on from Angel, and sleeps with Parker. She is then grossly humiliated, and Parker gets decked, and almost dies in fire.

Giles moves on from Jenny, and meets up with Olivia. Of course, their heterosexual relationship can't last, as she decides to leave him.

Willow and Oz's heterosexual relationship finally meets an end. It was never meant to be, because they were straight.

Riley is shunned by his organization, because he met Buffy. Proof that people can't accept healthy heterosexuals in love.

Season Five :

Joyce was divorced, since ME didn't want her to be in a heterosexual relationship. She was punished for dating Ted by having him trying to kill her. But AS SOON AS SHE TRIED TO DATE AGAIN, she died. She should have stuck to celibacy, as heterosexuality killed her.

Riley and Buffy finally break up. Need I say it again ?

Spike, in a heterobashing episode, proves that any heterosexual relationship ends in violence, as he challenges his three heterosexual partners to lethat combat.

Season Six :

Xander and Anya's wedding was never meant to happen, and ME took measures against it. In the end Anya turned evil again, fulfilling the heterophobe cliche.

Buffy and Spike's heterosexual encounters are depicted as violent, unhealthy and degrading. As Buffy stated, they were 'killing' her. Not so subtle message.

Richard is set up on a blind date with Buffy. He is then punished by being stabbed in the chest. He should really have known better.


My point ? ME are heterophobes. They always depict Heterosexual relationships as being unhealthy, and doomed. They punish heterosexual characters by killing them off, having them go insane, and even have heterosexual villains, which is still another degrading cliche. They should know what they are doing, and that heterosexuals won't stand up to
this kind of 'straight-bashing' on TV.

------
Rally
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby relativegirl » Mon May 20, 2002 3:46 pm

Thank you Rally for posting this, and for putting in time at the sort of forum that would spawn a post like this. It's really hard to read it without getting incensed and wanting to rant wildly, which is exactly what we have to learn to overcome if we are going to be effective advocates for our position. I don't want to, but I know I have to take this "hetero-cliche" perspective seriously enough to figure out how to meet it head on in a calm, rational way so that I can pick it apart and expose all of its fallacies and inconsistencies. Thanks again.
relativegirl
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby kyraroc » Mon May 20, 2002 6:19 pm

Fascinating. It appears to be a making fun of people who have accused Mutant Enemy of being deliberately homophobic, which as far as I know is an argument which hasn't been made by anybody, and it's also mocking those who have denied that all relationships on Buffy end badly, which as far as I know . . . also isn't anybody.

Is there a technical name for a parody of something that doesn't exist? Poorody? Irrelvantire?

--- KR

Edited to Add:

Made me wonder, though . . . if we lived in a world where heterosexuals on TV genuinely *were* treated just as lesbians are, so that . . .
Since there'd be 30 times as many in real life as there were on TV, only three out of every hundred TV characters would be heterosexual,
Usually when you saw one, it was a minor character introduced to be a villain, and
Even in the rare instances when it was a major character, they were still only likely to be evil or end up dead . . .
When Dharma's blood ended up splattered all over Greg's shirt, would whoever wrote that still write the same thing, only meaning it a bit more seriously?
kyraroc
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby the literary exterminator » Mon May 20, 2002 8:36 pm

Not all relationships on Buffy end badly, kyraroc. Riley and Sam are doing just fine. I only mention this because the poster used Riley as an example.

Yeah, I agree that it neither contradicts any of the arguments presented in the FAQ, nor does it directly parody the arguments. It, more than anything, parodys what one might think is the argument if one skimmed the document, saw the title, saw the examples, and didn't bother to read the text explaining the thesis or how the arguments support it.

When I saw the title, I thought it might be funny. Upon reading, I see it's just silly and makes no good point.
the literary exterminator
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby Rally » Mon May 20, 2002 9:36 pm

Really the scary part is not so much the mocking in itself, but the positive responses to the hate filled message that it sends. That is what truly is disheartening, frightening and makes you pray that none of your loved ones is gay or any minority what so ever.

Ignorance is truly frightening.
Rally
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby tyche » Tue May 21, 2002 12:38 am

Anyone remember this British show about a women's football (soccer) team? Cause iirc there was a lesbian couple on this show and (get this) neither of them died. They did split up at one point, but I think that they may have got a happy ending. I didn't start watching the show till the second series, though, and I didn't see the most recent one, so I may be mistaken.
tyche
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby tommo » Tue May 21, 2002 11:18 am

Yes, tyche. I used to love that show. The lesbian couple were in the first and second seasons, but were replaced by new characters in subsequent seasons. I remember only too well the scene where the lesbian introduced the other girl to her parents, who were, if I remember, positive and supportive. Good stuff.
tommo
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby VampNo12 » Tue May 21, 2002 11:27 am

I used to watch Playing the Field, which was a good show, but on BBC America they severely censored the love scenes. But all in all the lesbian couple did end happily so I guess it was a positive portrayl.
VampNo12
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby Repost Moderator » Tue May 21, 2002 11:56 am

[b:8abdcd430f] originally posted by Willowlicious[/b:8abdcd430f]

My mother passed away early Saturday morning at the age of 59 after suffering with ALS for two years. It has been a sad, difficult weekend.

I began watching BtVS last fall in order to find solace from the unrelenting weight of anticipatory grief I experienced as I watched my mother's health decline. I found the show to be smart, funny, moving and, even in its darkness, filled with hope. I even learned a few things about life.

However, after experiencing loss personally the last few days, I found this season's finale a wee bit lacking. I've found a few inconsistencies Joss Whedon may wish to consider before he attempts to produce a serious look at death, grief, love, friendship or sex ever again. For instance:

1) Oddly, when a body bag carrying a loved one is removed from the house, people DO react. They cry, they hang their heads, they pay their respects, they DON'T ignore it. Even weirder, people REMEMBER and MENTION the deceased often. Freakiest of all...the deceased normally get funerals.

2. My best friend seems to recognize my pain and has yet to have an "epiphany" that everything is going to be okay and run off to the beach, leaving me to deal with things on my own.

3. I just dyed my hair and somehow, with all the funeral planning and overall grieving, people have failed to notice.

4. I've tried to wax poetic about the mystery and wonder of yellow crayons to my mourning family members, but they've all remained frustratingly untouched.

5. As trite as funeral condolences can and do get, I've yet to hear any dialogue bad enough to be banished to the "Best of Mystery Science Theater 3000."

6. As much pain as my father is in after losing his wife of 40 years, he has yet to turn to my sister and I and declare, "You poor bastards, your suffering has to end."

7. No matter how many times I've collapsed weeping into the arms of straight men this weekend, I still feel like crap.

8. My grandmother is well-known as the "witch" of the family, but I somehow expect that she'll travel to the funeral via car rather than being teleported straight from her coven.

9. Even though there are no vengeance demons around to grant their wish, at least four people have thought to come up to me and say, "I wish I could take your pain away," or "I wish your mother hadn't passed away." I wonder how many more would do that if there actually were some handy VD's roaming about? Hmmmm.

10. Rather than leading to my insanity and death, glorious lesbian sex has been the only thing that has kept me sane during this entire ordeal. In fact, the love of another woman--one woman, my everything--has saved me every day for the last six years.

But maybe that's just the way things are in my crazy little universe. I don't know.

Honestly, that has got to be the worst season finale ever written. No respect, no hope, no fun, no plot, no continuity, no point, no surprises...no excuse. I'm sorry that my life is painfully "real" at the moment, but, damn, does it ever provide perspective. This show is just ridiculous and embarrassing and I'm sorry I ever cared so much, because it is clear that Joss Whedon doesn't care at all.

My mother is free from her suffering.

Willow and Tara are free from the Buffyverse. (Willow died with Tara, whatever "thing" they have wandering about next season isn't her.)

I am free of this albatross of a show.

We're all free now, Joss. Fuck you.

Amy

[b:8abdcd430f] *reposted from the complete spoiler thread of the season finale with Willowlicious' permission in order to save this post. May someone from ME actually read and [i:8abdcd430f] think[/i:8abdcd430f] about this.[/b:8abdcd430f].
Repost Moderator
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby Killin Joke » Tue May 21, 2002 1:36 pm

My sincere condolences, Amy...

Marveling about mothers... I hope Tara has a comforting reunion with her wicca mum... Especially, if she still remembers everything that has happened to her on earth... She deserves some support, as we all do... I know it's not much, but it's a small glimmer of light...

"Peace in the struggle, to find peace, comfort on the way, to comfort..." (Sarah McLachlan)
Killin Joke
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby The Partyman » Tue May 21, 2002 9:23 pm

Amy, my heartfelt condolences at your loss.
The Partyman
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby neroden1 » Wed May 22, 2002 5:54 pm

Many condolences.

I hope the people who wrote this season read that, too; it makes the point about how *wrong* this all was better than anything yet.
neroden1
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby kyraroc » Wed May 22, 2002 5:59 pm

From an article about the Buffy season finale in Salon:

**********************************

The season finale of "Buffy," which aired Tuesday night, followed weeks of buzzing on "Buffy" online message boards, some of which have been vibrating resoundingly with charges that "Buffy" is anti-gay, misogynist, or both. Some fans in the lesbian community have asserted that by killing off one-half of the show's lesbian couple -- Tara, the girlfriend of the very mild-mannered, very brainy but also, we now know, very powerful Willow -- Whedon destroyed one of the few positive lesbian role models on television. Thus, they argue, it follows that he's most certainly anti-gay. Other fans have said that every character who gets killed off on the show is either black, gay or a woman (or any combination of the three), which surely marks Whedon as a misogynist and/or a racist.

**************************************

Arrg! Why do people insist on saying that this is our argument, when it's not? Are they simply unable to realize that our thoughts may be more complex than "anyone-who-does-something-we-don't-like-is-a-racist-mysogynist-homophobe?" Do they have to oversimplify it so they can understand it, or to make it easier to knock down, or are they simply so willing to attribute a knee-jerk accusatory stance to us that they honestly can't conceive we could be saying anything else? What the frilly heck is going on?

The rest of the article, although I disagree with it completely, is a fairly lucid defense of the pro-season-finale position. But that paragraph pissed me off.

--- KR
kyraroc
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby Rally » Wed May 22, 2002 6:07 pm

I will have to read the entire Salon article, it's disapointing that they took that stance. I find their articles to usually be very well written and insightful.
Rally
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby Lindy » Thu May 23, 2002 8:28 am

I have read that article also and I couldn't find a coherent message or stream of narration. What did they want to say in the end?

And yes, that paragraph is pretty annoying.
Lindy
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby Hemiola » Thu May 23, 2002 12:43 pm

My sincere condolences to Willowlicious.

My father died of ALS; my mother subsequently succumbed to cancer.

Have courage. Things will get better, even if it doesn't seem that way now.
Hemiola
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby kpmuse » Thu May 23, 2002 4:17 pm

I am so sorry Willowlicious. My prayers are for you and your family.

Does anyone feel like the folks at ME, Salon.com and possibly others are twisting the facts surrounding our concerns?

I know that people spin things to their liking to avoid responsibility or just plain old get defensive, and there is not much one can do except to reiterate the message over and over again. It's also got to be hard to hear the real message when lots of people on the net are posting all kinds of different things.

I dunno. I feel like people are saying that we at the Kitten are purely upset because they killed the lesbian, meaning Tara. How did they get this specific message from what we've put out there? That's only part of it.

I don't think they are understanding the core of what is so painful and upsetting to us, and how we really felt about Willow & Tara as people, as a couple. We lost Willow too. We lost them together in the most cliched way.

Does anyone else feel this way about the message being distorted? If so, is there anything we can do to refocus it?

Gosh, we need like a PR firm. Any Kittens with PR experience? {kidding}
I wish that we could really get the entire message to ME at minimum. I don't want us to be brushed off. It's too important that this be heard fully.

Edited to add: Really excellent letter kyraroc!
kpmuse
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby kyraroc » Thu May 23, 2002 5:33 pm

The following letter has been sent to Salon, under my and Amy's names. I have no idea whether or not they will publish it:

Dear Salon,

We are the authors, along with other members of "The Kitten, The Witches, and the Bad Wardrobe" (a popular Willow/Tara fan board), of an internet FAQ titled "The Death of Tara, the Fall of Willow and The Dead/Evil Lesbian Clich." We are therefore likely part of what Stephanie Zacharek referred to as the "weeks of buzzing on 'Buffy' online message boards" regarding Tara's death and subsequent events on the show.

Zacharek stated that "some fans in the lesbian community have asserted that by killing off one-half of the show's lesbian couple . . . Whedon destroyed one of the few positive lesbian role models on television." This is indeed something that we, at least, have said. She then went on to say, however, that the boards have, as a result, been saying that both 'Buffy' and Joss Whedon are "anti-gay" and additionally "misogynist and/or racist."

That is not something we ever argued, nor is it something we have seen said by the vast majority of those angry about Tara's death. In fact, we went to great lengths to say that we decidedly did not think Tara was killed, or Willow turned evil, for homophobic reasons on the part of Joss Whedon or anyone else.

Our primary objection was that these events, however they were intended, still fall into the clich of television lesbians dying, turning evil, and never knowing true happiness. This clich is so pervasive that happy lesbian couples on television are almost impossible to find, whereas dead ones can be found - or rather, no longer found - on scores of shows. This matters; heterosexual couples can look at the media and see hundreds of representations of themselves, some happy, some sad, some good, some evil, some alive, some dead. Lesbian couples see an almost uniformly bleak message informing them that they are doomed to misery and pain.

We are particular angry at 'Buffy' because at various times the show's writers have indicated that they were aware of the clich and said that this is exactly the kind of thing they wouldn't do. Doug Petrie said, "We've all seen shows where if you have any kind of gay tendencies, you must be killed or made to suffer for no other reason other than you're gay. We're hyper aware of that . . . we can avoid what we feel is this old clich" (Sci-Fi Universe 2/21/00). Joss Whedon himself said, "...one post from a gay or questioning teen saying the show helped them is worth six hundred hate letters...Here's the word: Tara's not gonna disappear" (Bronze Beta 5/24/00).

Obviously, after seeing a two-year long lesbian relationship on the show, we are aware that Joss Whedon and co. didn't kill Tara because she was gay. We are aware that Willow was not made into a "cut-out angry lesbian", as Ms. Zacharek put it, nor did we ever accuse them of doing so. We are aware that no couples on Buffy have ever ended particularly happily. We are also aware that they are under no obligation to anyone and can do whatever they like with their show.

However, we are saddened and angry that Tara has, for whatever reason, been added to the heaping pile of dead TV lesbians. We are saddened and angry that this happened on a show where the writers said they were aware that there were too many dead lesbians on TV already, and claimed to be above falling into that clich themselves. And then proceeded to handle things so badly that Tara was shot at the end of an episode in which she and Willow had extended and explicit lesbian sex for pretty much the first time on the show, cementing the connection between lesbian sex and death securely.

And, while certainly Buffy couples in general are unhappy as well, there are plenty of other heterosexual couples on other shows, while Willow and Tara were practically unique. Joss Whedon and his fellow writers killed the unicorn for the sake of this plotline.

Whatever the intention, however well or poorly the last episodes of this season were written, however much other characters suffer on the show, the fact remains that 'Buffy' ended this season with the dead character being the lesbian.

As usual.

The full text of "The Death of Tara, the Fall of Willow and The Dead/Evil Lesbian Clich FAQ" can be found at the kitten board, www.froggyfrog.com/kitten
kyraroc
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby xita » Thu May 23, 2002 6:27 pm

that is a very good letter. Hopefully they'll read it.
xita
 

PreviousNext

Return to Board index

Return to Other Backup

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 15 guests


Powered by phpBB The phpBB Group © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007
Style based on a Cosa Nostra Design