Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

[Gatito Grande]

If you think Salon is bad, look at this gem from the Cinescape review:

[quote:8fd203dd88][b:8fd203dd88][i:8fd203dd88]Quote:[/i:8fd203dd88][/b:8fd203dd88]

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Warren escaped for the time being only to show up a few weeks ago with a gun, aiming it at Buffy, shooting her and accidentally killing Tara instead.
That didnt sit too well with Willow (Alyson Hannigan) her girlfriend

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[/quote:8fd203dd88]

[b:8fd203dd88] Didn't freakin' sit too well?![/b:8fd203dd88] (Man, I could not have gotten through the past week w/o the puke-icon!)

Of course, according to this moron (the editor-in-chief no less)[quote:8fd203dd88][b:8fd203dd88][i:8fd203dd88]Quote:[/i:8fd203dd88][/b:8fd203dd88]

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It packs a wallop and is an utterly satisfying finale. If BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER were to end its run on this night, this would have been the way to do it.

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[/quote:8fd203dd88]

There's more here, if you can stomach it:

www.cinescape.com/0/edito...j_id=34655

Natch, I wrote to protest this one, too: we'll see if it gets anywhere.

GG [i:8fd203dd88] Induce vomiting[/i:8fd203dd88] Out

[Epicurus]

I am going to be using the following as an example not because of the gay factor, but because it best illustrates the point I'm trying to make. We hear on the news, in newspapers, instances when a gay person who has been assaulted reports the crime against them to the authorities. What happens as a result when this person speaks up? They are questioned and ridiculed. Everything is twisted and blame is put on them. No, this doesn't happen every single time but it seems to be quite a common occurrence. [b:7b0c8a3e92]Something that was never in their control is now their fault just because they spoke out about it. [/b:7b0c8a3e92]
To a lesser degree, this is what is happening here.

It has become unreasonable to expect any sort of understanding from people in general/columnists/writers if they do not understand our stance to begin with. People may come to understand us in time but don't be surprised when that doesn't happen. Ignorance is bliss. It's easier for them to white wash a controversy by pretending that our claims are unfounded. It is even easier if they present this as a "homophobic" claim because other wise they would have to have an opinion/stance on a real issue.
Joss as a homophobe is NOT a real issue.

I truly believe that this FAQ is here for those who want to understand but don't (me for example). People can misunderstand it all they want cause the thing is, all the mocking, twisting of words and pure ignorance will never, ever change the fact that a majority of film memories are filled with dead, evil and crazy lesbians and gay men. Whether they choose to acknowledge and see the points made in the FAQ in no way affect the purpose for its existence.
They will always find a way to defend Joss' choice of story only this time they get to use us as their ammo.

Regarding the Heterosexual Clich, first, I believe that a clich has to exist in order for it to actually be. Sorry, but I am not aware of any such thing. Ok so I may be wrong but then where is the proof? Show me examples of the other television and/or movies where an entire cast is gay except 2 or 3 straight people where in they are the ones to be killed or evilized or made insane.
It is no surprise that the hetero-sex = death post received positive and agreeing replies.
Sheep need a leader; some times you can find leaders in the form of a homophobic Internet posters.

[Taz]

thanks to the authors of this, my wife has been having a bit of trouble trying to figure out exactly why I'm so pissed at Joss and ME. I have been patiently(sorta) trying to explain the whole evil gay/lesbian thing and she just hasn't gotten it. After reading this to her she understands more clearly and that's a good thing. So thanks again and to everyone else who has added something.

[TheHighWillowhuggerofOz]

I thought about the problem yesterday while trying to go to bed and for about 3 hours I couldn't sleep, writing this fanfic in my head.

I'd like to share it with you as it illustrates better my opinion on the whole problem HAD JOSS NOT CHOSEN TO LIE. It's both heart breaking and helped me come to terms a bit.

Basically the premise was Joss comming on a Gay and Lesbian Talk show that apparently exists somewhere in the recesses of my mind. It's host is Sandi.

Sandi: and our next guest is Joss Wheldon!

*Crowd of men and women clap and cheer*

Joss: Hey folks.

Sandi: Joss you've both taken fire and been cheered for the introduction of an openly lesbian couple in the series which is part of the main cast.

Joss: Thank you very much Sandi. It took a while to get the network executives to agree to it but Buffy is a show that doesn't shy away from things in real college life or adulthood.....with vampires.

Sandi: Now Joss 'Tara' is a character who comes onto the show with no prior sexual experience but Willow has been on the show three years before with a completely hetreosexual background.

Joss: That's not entirely true, she was 'some gay' at least two episodes of Season 3 but admitadly as a vampire.

Sandi: Yes the vampire as a sexual metaphor has long been a negative stereotype of homosexuals.

Joss: *wince*

Sandi: So the question comes down is Willow bisexual?

Joss: Well...she's pretty much all gay now. Her previous relationships were pining for Xander who more or less is the exception to the rule sexually and Oz who was the eptimone of cool. I think the attraction to women was pretty much always underlying her there but Xander was her childhood crush and friend while Oz was there to help her blossom sexually.

Sandi: that's not how it works in real life Joss.

Joss: Yeah but I decided to make them gay in Season four so cut me some slack here.

Sandi: Fair enough. Fans have expressed some concern though about whether or not Tara or Willow might suffer what might be construed as the "lesbian cliche"

Joss: That whatszat?

Sandi: Basically speaking that Tara and or Willow might at some point be killed off on the show. With so few positive lesbian relationship role-models and the rumors of a Scooby death this season the fans would like to know...is one of them going to die?

Joss: Well it IS a horror show. I can't really treat them any differently than the other characters.

Sandi: Yes but the effects of such a action might in fact be devastating to a large number of fans. To not put too fine a point on it you would be luring a number of people in and sucker punching them for a much more grevious blow than had you just openly killed them in a single episode

Joss: Well I wouldn't be killing them or anyone else for that matter on my show because of sexuality. I already did my killing for sex in the second season. Buffy is a necessarily 'edgy' show which requires me to keep everyone on their toes. The willingness to off the cast at any time with no warning is something I'm quite proud of.

*boos from audience*

*Joss gives a a stuck out tongue with antlers*

Sandi: But don't you adopt some social responsibility by accepting the couple on the show?

Joss: Social responsibility is a main theme of Buffy the Vampire Slayer with alot of the episodes geared around the hells of high school, then college, then growing up in general. However I can't retool my basic concept 'Everyone will be miserable in the end'

Still I'm glad to have had Amber Benson on the show and Alyson Hannigan...muhahah. Kidding Kidding. They're a seriously great couple and I'm glad to be exploring this story-arc.

Sandi: Hmmm, here's a clip

[IvanovaDV]

OMG, this is so freakin' funny!

[urnofosiris]

Hmm not sure what you are trying to illustrate there, but

[quote:402b212c05][b:402b212c05][i:402b212c05]Quote:[/i:402b212c05][/b:402b212c05]

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Sandi: that's not how it works in real life Joss.

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[/quote:402b212c05]

Isn't it? Why not?

[TheHighWillowhuggerofOz]

Well quite a number of openly homosexual men and women I know would object quite strongly to the idea that at heart all men and women can control their sexuality to some extent and "love is love" as ME says. My own beliefs on the matter I intend to keep to myself on the point but it seemed to me that it was probably a good to have our Gay and Lesbian Talk Show Host shoot down Joss slightly in some regard to give a 'balanced portrayal'

What I was trying to illustrate was

A My mind is very very strange at 3:00 am
B Joss could have told about the show's possible fate and if not better it would have been better prepared without lying
C Someone was destined for heartache it seems with Buffy continuing on as a show.

As a 'horror show' it's uniquely unsuited I think for portraying the type of positive role-models for gay and lesbians for sustained periods without drawing to an end. Like Soap Operas there can be no 'happily ever after' unless the show is canceled or brought to an end.

When your main premise is furthermore violent and scare your going to draw on ugliness first. It's sad such a premises had to be the one to first introduce something like this as opposed to romantic-comedy,....then again such rarely achieves the depth Buffy USUALLY got.

At least my opinion.

[urnofosiris]

I am still not getting it I am afraid. *Without* starting the Willow sexuality debate again, the most common argument used to question her possibly not being gay is the fact she used to be attracted to Xander and love Oz, well see, that happens, somewhere out there there is a woman who once had a loving relationship with a man but is now a lesbian, without ever going back to boystown. Willow is a lesbian, she used to love a guy, and now she is gay, forever. It happens. So I would not say that isn't how it works. That does *not* mean or imply that Willow or any woman was 'controlling' her sexualtity in the past.

As for the show, it was (past tense) more than just a horror show, the relationships between the characters and their emotions made it more real than many a "reality" show. It was more than suited to bring forth and maintain a loving same sex relationship. There was never a reason why it could not end happy and still have angst.

I agree that Joss Whedon should just have been upfront and said there are no guarantees instead of hammering the point that he loved Amber Benson and WT and Tara was not going anywhere. If he had not lied or claimed equal treatment or that this is what we *need*, I would still have been hurt of course, but not to the degree I am now. I would have been shipping at my own risk. But he took the praise, he lied and then he lied some more.

[TheHighWillowhuggerofOz]

Well if that's how you say it works, more power to you. I didn't feel comfortable saying that necessarily.

I agree with your other points there

[urnofosiris]

When a lesbian tells me that is how it was/is for her then that is how it is. It would be very offensive, sort of like telling a person you know what it is they need, to say that is not how it is because I may have my own set of definitions (I don't) of what makes a woman a lesbian.

[relativegirl]

Gotta agree with Garfield here. I think it's very common for lesbians to have had prior relationships with men, and often those relationships were very positive experiences. I don't know why it is, but my gay male friends tend not to have had very many, or any, sexual experiences with women whereas most of my lesbian friends (I'm not including those who are bixsexual) tend to have not only had sexual experiences, but full relationships, with men. I'm not claiming that my peer group is representative of gays and lesbians as whole, but based on my life experiences, I thought Joss did a nice job telling Willow's story with Xander/Oz/Tara b/c it rang so true with the experiences of so many. And I don't think that story necessarily is about "controling" one's sexuality or "turning" or anything like that.

[Hemiola]

First-class work on the part of all the authors of the FAQ .

Since mention was made therein of "The Children's Hour", I thought I would add this interesting bit of informational trivia.

The MacClaine/Hepburn film was [i:7295c30726] not[/i:7295c30726] the first cinematic version of this play! In 1936, Lillian Hellman was dismayed to discover that although Hollywood was very interested in filming her hit play, the infamous Breen Office would not permit [b:7295c30726] any mention or hint of homosexuality or lesbianism whatsoever[/b:7295c30726]! The result was a film called "These Three", released in 1936, in which the plot is made to center around a [b:7295c30726] heterosexual[/b:7295c30726] affair. Although afflicted with the "dead/evil lesbian" clich, at least the later film was able to broach the subject!!!! Progress, it seems, is only made in baby steps.

Interesting bit of trivia: actress Miriam Hopkins appeared in the original stage production, the 1936 film, and the MacClaine/Hepburn film.
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"Protected by WITCHCRAFT"
text of a bumper-sticker on a car I recently followed

[Repost Moderator]

[b:aedfc7691a] originally posted by: helpful information perhaps[/b:aedfc7691a]

I'm not really sure which thread this belongs in so I'm posting this here and hoping the mods will find this a appropriate home

Preface:

There has been much talk here of the "cliche" and of mounting a response to ME's use of it this season with W&T.
As it turns out, a lesbian friend of mine (who while 40ish and "out" for most of her life, had never heard of the "celluloid closet" or the "cliche") was at a beach resort town (with a large gay community) this weekend and saw an article in the local gay rag which they found enlightening and sent on to me because they know I watch buffy (well used to).

I think this kind of "grass roots" commentary in the local gay papers is a great way of "getting the word out" about where buffy has gone this season AND educating people about the "cliche."
Cultural bigotry is often difficult to unmask, because its so engrained into the public conscience that even those most affected by it fail to recognize it for what it is - but until its brought to light and dealt with it will continue

anyway here are excerpts from this illuminating article from Letters Vol 12, #5 that opened my friends eyes
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Heterosexuality Wins
by Kristen Minor

I recently rented a copy of the movie The Children's Hour,.....Long story short MacLaine's character declares her love for Hepburn's and ends up killing herself in shame while Hepburn hooks up with a tall and swarthy man.

The message is clear: Lesbianism causes pain, suffering and death.

Heterosexuality wins....lesbian couples on film and on televison are generally divided into two categories. You have the Irredeemable Lesbian- generally the "butch" one...she is the seducer and predator. Her target is the Innocent. That would be feminine one...sucked into
the sinful glamour of lesbianism. There are two endings to this story: Irredeemable is killed off OR suffers some other tragic fate, while Innocent goes into a murderous rage OR falls into the arms of a tall and swarthy man....Such endings ignore the existence of bisexuality which is of course just a plot device to crank up ratings.

This week on the WB: A female lead kisses a girl and then goes back to boys after a full ten minutes of confusion. Tune in!

The evil, dead and suffering lesbian cliche is a tradional subset of the generic minority cliche, best summed up as "the black guy always dies."

For variation, he is permitted to be a drug dealer..........Why are minorities evil beings who are made to suffer?

Hatred. We're being put in our place.

We can scream until we are blue in the face about how virtually every minority character is a ridiculous cliche ....the traditional response from TPTB is

"But they are there! What more do you uppity people want?

We'd like to live for starters.

The disturbing impression that I was left with after watching The Childrens Hour is that decades later little has changed.

Exhibit A: The television series Buffy the Vampire Slayer which just last week killed off lesbian witch Tara (Irredeemable), sending her lover Willow (who has dated men making her the Innocent) to go on a murderous rampage.

So much for innocence.

This was, incidently, the episode where the two characters were shown in bed naked together and kissed through out the episode.

For those of you in the back that missed the point, here it is: lesbian sex is a cardinal sin that leads to death.......Researching this column has been a revelation. I realize now that I can never be happy, nor will any of my relationships work out. I am a weak, sick and pathetic predator who deserves the pity of the hetersexual world, which should make every effort to save and redeem me.
The same goes for all gay people.
Lesbianism causes pain, suffering and death.
We get it.
__________

[helpful information perha]

thanks to the mods for finding a home for my post

and FYI I've now found a website with the full article www.camprehoboth.com/issu...ntcamp.htm

[AutumnT]

You know at this point I am surprised Joss is NOT going to have Willow go to prison. Because then he could do the lesbian prison cliche' too. Well, maybe it will come to him and he'll change his mind so he can make sure and hit all the bases.

[TheHighWillowhuggerofOz]

Hmmmm

Well this is certainly quite enlightening. The lesbian I know one of which is quite adament on her being this way and always was. Also a number of articles I read...

Of course I knew her girlfriend who was recently married and quite...err well it seemed positive until the breakup as far as I could tell.

I suppose the former just made a stronger impression on me

(BTW on the male homosexual thing- it's actually a Church policy that I've read "secret documents on" that homosexuality among men is caused by young men not getting out enough. It was disturbing and hilarious at the same time)

[slayer747]

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[b:a598030403] lesbian sex is a cardinal sin that leads to death.......Researching this column has been a revelation. I realize now that I can never be happy, nor will any of my relationships work out. I am a weak, sick and pathetic predator who deserves the pity of the hetersexual world, which should make every effort to save and redeem me.
The same goes for all gay people.
Lesbianism causes pain, suffering and death.
We get it.[/b:a598030403]
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i hope this one goes under the label of "sarcasm"...

(see my signature... it kind of explains why i'm hoping that...)

[urnofosiris]

No worries, that one goes under the label "dripping with sarcasm" actually.

[Rainbow wren]

Sassette wrote on the 12th of may "I just wanted to mention that section 8 is a perfect place to spell out specifically that gays are the only minority that don't share their minority status with their parents. "

While i support your sentiment, i also know many people within the gay and lesbian community who's parents are also gay... just eanting to add that to da mix

i think at the moment i can only think of two

The incredibly true adventures of 2 girls in love

and

Better than chocolate

both movies show homophobia, but the main characters overcome it to live happily eva after.. anyone who would like to add to the list so we can send them to joss to prove to him that he didn't ned to break up our wiccans ......... please do

Wren

[kyraroc]

In the FAQ itself, what we actually eventually wrote was:

"gays and lesbians are one of the few minority groups whose parents are not necessarily members of the same minority"

---KR

[kyraroc]

Well, the letter to Salon was posted there, somewhat cut, but along with a number of others expressing similar viewpoints, and also some opposing ones. So that's a good thing.

Of course, all of these thoughtful, well-reasoned letters, from both men and women, were posted under the heading, "Lesbian outrage! Readers respond to Stephanie Zacharek's "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" wrap." Sigh.

--- KR

[relativegirl]

Yeah, the "lesbian outrage" headline kinda took the wind out of my sails for a moment too. One step forward, two steps back.

[kyraroc]

(Incidentally, my gf just read the letter and said she thought it was "too restrained". Oh, well. I was hoping restraint would be a nice counter to SZ's, "everyone objecting is a militant lesbian who thinks Joss Whedon is a homophobic misogynist racist"-type arguments.)

--- KR

[AutumnT]

Found this here: www.scifi.com/sfw/current/letters.html

[quote:0875f00f9f][b:0875f00f9f][i:0875f00f9f]Quote:[/i:0875f00f9f][/b:0875f00f9f]

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Gotta say I agree with Barbara Goldstein ("May Sweeps Raises Death Count" .

[Warning: Spoilers ahead.]

I'm pissed off. Who began this rather alarming trend of killing off characters on our favorite TV shows anyway? I understand that sometimes people die in real life, and that needs to be reflected in our popular culture, but it's getting to the point where we haven't got a single sci-fi or fantasy show where the main characters haven't been killed off and resurrected in some form or another. And I'm sick to death (pun intended) of using one character's death as a plot point or catalyst for sending another character off on a mad rampage. It's not even remotely original, and it is downright annoying.

Yeah, I'm talking about Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

I'm usually a huge fan of Joss Whedon's vision (obviously) but I knew there was something up when Amber Benson appeared in the opening credits for the first time as a regular. A bit of hat-tipping in her direction perhaps? Acknowledging a fantastic effort in taking on the unenviable job of replacing the popular Oz in gaining Willow's affection, and playing a simpering, stuttering, shy type to boot? To some she was instantly appealing, to others she took a while to get used to, but I haven't met a single fan of the show who didn't at least have a modicum of respect for the character by the time of "Once More With Feeling."

And now, pointlessly martyred to the plot-point Gods. Or I could get paranoid and put this down to yet another horrible death suffered by the lesbian character. Punishment for sexual transgression? Perhaps. I thought Buffy the Vampire Slayer was different. I thought just once the lesbian might survive.

I'll still be a fan, and I'll cheer for the character development of Willow wherever the writers choose to take her. However, "Seeing Red" is going to take some work to overcome, and I just don't have the same feeling for the show as I used to. I mean, what's the point in becoming emotionally invested in something where characters are killed off for no reason anyway?

Veronica Holmes
vholmes@pacific.net.au

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[/quote:0875f00f9f]

[Rally]

She at least opened herself up to becoming labeled as one of those hysterical lesbians. Heavan forbid anyone should have an opinion that is anti Joss.

[stephenboothuk]

I've updated the page on my site containing this FAQ.

URL is: http://www.abooth.demon.co.uk/lesbiancliche.htm

I've added a Table of Contents to the page and expanded the Links section at the bottom. Most of the links added to the links section are those that, according to my hit counter, have links to the page which are bringing in traffic. It seems that the URL for this thread changed since the last time I checked so I corrected the links for that.

I have also submitted the page to Yahoo!, AltaVista and AskJeeves for adding to their search engine databases.

Stephen

[WebWarlock]

I *finally* got around to getting this on to my website.

I'll check my stats later on to see how many hits it is getting.

www.xtreme-gaming.com/the...cliche.php

Spreading the word!

Warlock

[supermus]

I'm not sure if this has been posted before, but I figured this would be the best place to put it. You might want to add Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back to your list of perpetrators of lesbian cliches. Sissy, Missy, Chrissy, and Justice are members of an internation gang of jewel theives who all happen to be lesbians. They're typical stereotypical bad girls, with the violence and the making out. Justice eventually betrays the gang, turns herself and them in, and presumably gives the diamonds back to the exchange they stole them too. Why? For the love of a man. She dumps her girlfriend Sissy(played by Eliza Dushku, btw) and goes running into Jay's arms, to keep him from getting punished for what he did to create a diversion for the jewel hiest. It's kind of a long story, but that's a pretty good summary. Anyone else got something to add to that?

[toskp10]

I'm going to risk my arm by throwing in my own opinon. I've read the FAQ, but not all the posts, so sorry if i'm retreading ground already covered.
Firstly, the comparison was made between X/A and W/T, but I don't think any comparison is meaningful. Relationships differ as much as people do. If you must, then you could argue that Buffy and Angel had just as much hassle.
Second, lying to the fans is a necessary evil. Saying "no comment" to a direct question about a charachters fate would be a kiss of death. They have to do whats best for the story.
I can see how the point is made that Tara was killed for having lesbian sex, but the fates in Sunnydale aren't that slow. 2 and a half year relationship? Having sex for, what, a year? My first impression was that Tara was killed because she was happy. Bad things happen to people who are happy in Sunnydale. I would also dissagree with the point that Tara should have been shot somewhere without the sexual connotations. The time and place highten the happiness/grief counterpoint. I don't want to watch a show that pulls any emotional punches (even if they aren't happy emotions).
Finally, Willow doesn't go all that evil for very long. If I was in her position I would have done the same (might have even killed Warren a bit slower). In spite of all the darkness and power her friends never give up on her, they all have hope that Willow can be reached. And that faith is justified in the end. The point that it is a man that saves her is just plain mean. Xander was her best friend, the only one for the job. I don't think they could be expect to write his part as female just so the last scene in the 6th series would be more p.c.
Thats all I can think of.
Be seeing you.
tosk_p10

[urnofosiris]

I'd say *offscreen* sex for what 2 and a half years actually. Ironic that we got as close to seeing it in the very episode they kill Tara in. That's equal treatment for ya. Tara was not the only happy person on the show when Tara got killed. Willow was happy. Dawn was happy. All characters have been happy at one point or another. Angel even has is own show. None of them got shot in the back. All the others are *alive* and have a chance for a happy life.

Whatever you are arguing here however does not take away from the [i:80e69ff551] point[/i:80e69ff551] of the FAQ, and that is that once again as is the case on every other show the gay relationship ends in disaster with [b:80e69ff551] no[/b:80e69ff551] hope for recovery.
The motivation behind it does not ever matter, the results are the same. As for lying, well we did not ask them whether they would kill Tara, most of their statements have been uncollicited, literally from day one they lied to our faces. We should just forgive and accept everything they do right? We needed the lies as well I guess.