Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

[xita]

I am sure your [b:1299527f64]genius[/b:1299527f64] Joss Whedon could do better than "no comment."

And he didn't have to agree to be interviewed by OUT and take credit for all the people that were helped by this storyline. He didn't have to say it was perhaps the most important thing they'd done on the show. It is easy to take credit for the social implications of a show when they are positive. I laugh at his [b:1299527f64]cowardice[/b:1299527f64] for not taking credit for the negative social consequences of his show.

[Warduke]

[i:e888b54023] Being in a relationship for two and a half years, and having sex for a year[/i:e888b54023]...Have you actually seen the show?

Saying "No comment" is much better than outright lying don't you think? This was not a joke about some new character or actor showing up or something, they lied about the death of a beloved character, you think that's ok? That's just part of the business, thats whats best for the storyyeah right.

You say you dont want to watch a show that pulls any emotional punches? That works both ways, a show like this shouldn't be all smiles and sunshine but it also shouldn't be the giant chasm of despair that was S6.

And making Xander the hero was of course the right thing to do, since he had been such a hero for the rest of the season

[toskp10]

"I'd say *offscreen* sex for what 2 and a half years actually."

I'd agree. I was being overly conservative since, to the best of my knowledge, the first time Tara and Willow have sex can't be pinned down to an episode.

"Tara was not the only happy person on the show when Tara got killed. Willow was happy. Dawn was happy."

My point wasn't that happy people died, it was that bad things happened to happy people. Yes, Willow and Dawn were happy, and Tara's death effected them two the most. Dawn, who was obviously estactic about Tara's return to the house, now has another name to add to the list of people she's lost.

"Does not take away from the point of the FAQ, and that is that once again as is the case on every other show the gay relationship ends in disaster with no hope for recovery. "

I don't see that. Willow survives, and presumably will be able to deal with her grief. In the words of Galen of Crusade:
There is always hope. Only because it's the one thing that no one has figured out how to kill yet.

"I am sure your genius Joss Whedon could do better than "no comment." "

Ouch! I gotta say, even though I'm not a lesbian, this sarcasm really makes me feel at home. I do not suffer from any illusion that Joss can do no wrong. There have been some dire episodes (Bad Beer), I hated the whole Magic/addiction arc at the start of this season, and to tell the truth I think the show peaked at series 4. But the reason I posted here is that I thought he was being unnecessarily villified. I personally do not feel betrayed by the fact they kept the most important plot point secret. Perhaps that's just because my sister spilled the beans before I had a chance to see the episode and I really wish she hadn't. If anyone has seen Babylon 5, then their favourite episode is almost certainly Z'ha'dum. Not because of the cool space battles or the rising and falling of empires (which got me hooked), but because of the gut-wrenching death at the end. It was widely agreed that jms (writer, producer, great maker) was a right bastard for doing that to us, but I'm glad he did, and wouldn't want to have been warned.
One last point (for now) which will almost certainly get me flamed to death, Willow and Tara were never "lesbians". Obviously they were lesbians, but to my (naive) view they were just a couple. There was never a need to label them a lesbian couple. It didn't matter. It shouldn't matter. I believe this was what Joss was aiming for, I can't recall the word "lesbian" being used (Willow does say "Gay now" in Triangle, see I have seen the show). Thats why when I did see Seeing Red thinking "They killed the lesbian charachter" couldn't have been further from my mind.
Be seeing you.
tosk_p10.

[kpmuse]

Flamed? No, I just dont think you know what you are talking about. Willow & Tara are not lesbians? Oh, yeah, we should now avoid calling girls who are in love lesbians because Joss Whedon is trying to manipulate his "Your Shirt" story line to be more accepted by his fans.

I am proud to call girls in love lesbians and lesbian couples and just plain old couples for that matter. All are wonderfully acceptable.

[Rally]

[quote:18bcb094ee][b:18bcb094ee][i:18bcb094ee]Quote:[/i:18bcb094ee][/b:18bcb094ee]

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Willow and Tara were never "lesbians"

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[/quote:18bcb094ee]
Ah than pray tell why did UPN feel the need to cut scenes of Willow and Tara in two consecutive episodes, if they are just another couple.

Why did two harmless scenes suffer 6 seconds worth of cuts, while a brutal attempted rape scene went unblemished. Please explain in WHAT WAY SHAPE OR FORM, Willow and Tara were treated [b:18bcb094ee] "just like every other couple"[/b:18bcb094ee].

But let me help you with that, you can't. Because they were not treated like every other couple. That was sarcasm by the way.

You can buy in to the ME, they were treated as any couple, not the lesbian couple. You can purchase that line all ya like.

But, [b:18bcb094ee] DO NOT[/b:18bcb094ee] come here and expect us to buy into that crap.

[toskp10]

I didn't stress enough that it was my own opinion! I am not a spokesperson for ME or Joss. I'm not trying to change anyones views. I never said Willow and Tara were not treated like other couples. Even I could see the hypocracy of B/R sexcapades versus waiting a year for W/T's first kiss. If my own views are misguided and ill-informed then I honestly would like to know why. One of the reasons for the FAQ were the "negative social consequences" of the episode. Well society is made up of one mind at a time, I don't think it's made me any negative impact on me.

[relativegirl]

[quote:806777356d][b:806777356d][i:806777356d]Quote:[/i:806777356d][/b:806777356d]

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My point wasn't that happy people died, it was that bad things happened to happy people.

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[/quote:806777356d]
I agree that bad things happen to happy people on BtVS and that's fine with me. It was fine with me when bad things happened to Willow and Tara, until the last 5 minutes of Seeing Red. Although I dearly love W/T, I rather enjoyed having my heart wrenched as I watched all the bad things that happened to W/T in Season 5 and the first part of Season 6.

I want to see stories focused on women characters; I want to see stories focused on lesbian characters. And I want those characters to endure as full of a range of pain and happiness as male characters and strait characters. I want to see them struggle, suffer and sometimes overcome, sometimes fail. I don't want to have special rules that say we can never harm the lesbians or we can never kill the lesbians. Why would I want to see boring lesbians on TV? I KNOW boring lesbians. I can get boring any time.

Regardless of my sexuality, I also feel tremendous affection for Buffy and I am invested in her as a character and her relationships with the various and sundries she's been paired with. I started watching the show b/c of Buffy, not W/T, and, more often than not, I relate more to Buffy and her trials and tribulations than I do to either Willow and Tara and what they're going through.

But I'm sick and tired of seeing ALL the lesbians end up dead or crazy or evil or killers. I've seen it over and over and I'm sick of it. Killing Tara and having Willow go off the deep end after what was obviously an extended sex fest is a textbook example of the lesbian cliche in cinema and tv. They had sex, a lot, and moments after getting dressed after a romp, Tara is dead and Willow's going nutso.

If the goal was to kill Tara, they could have chosen any number of different scenarios. As for motivation for Willow's walk on the evil side, how could anyone who has watched the show for the last 2.5 years actually doubt that Willow loved Tara with all her heart? If Tara had been murdered 2 days after they last had sex, instead of 2 minutes, Willow would have been just as devasted. I've lost people I loved with all my heart and soul. My sense of loss and emptiness has nothing to do with how recently I last expressed my love for them. Losing Tara would devast Willow regardless of whether they just finished making love, so there was no justifiable reason to kill Tara right after sex with Willow. Juxtaposing lesbian sex with death and vengence suggests a causality that I find deeply, deeply offensive.

We can both name any number of strait characters on Buffy who are neither dead, nor crazy, nor evil, nor murderers. If you could name even one lesbian or gay character who is none of the above, I would find you're argument more persuasive. Larry's dead, Tara's dead, Willow is certainly a killer and pretty far around the bend. And if Andrew is meant to be gay, jeepers, he's part of the evil troika. Thanks for nothing. It doesn't really matter to me if they're dead or evil b/c they're "happy" as opposed to b/c they're "gay." Dead and crazy is dead and crazy, no matter how you slice it.

If you could suggest another show I could watch with a positive long-term lesbian couple, again, I would find your argument more persuasive. I, on the other hand, can point to a countless number of shows with any number of happy straight couples who are alive and well. Oh well.

[quote:806777356d][b:806777356d][i:806777356d]Quote:[/i:806777356d][/b:806777356d]

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One last point (for now) which will almost certainly get me flamed to death, Willow and Tara were never "lesbians". Obviously they were lesbians, but to my (nieve) view they were just a couple. There was never a need to label them a lesbian couple. It didn't matter. It shouldn't matter. I believe this was what Joss was aiming for, I can't recall the word "lesbian" being used (Willow does say "Gay now" in Triangle, see I have seen the show). Thats why when I did see Seeing Red thinking "They killed the lesbian charachter" couldn't have been further from my mind.

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[/quote:806777356d]
I'm glad that you didn't see Tara's death as a message that "they killed the lesbian character" as that tends to be a pretty negative message in TV shows and in the movies, b/c lesbian deaths tend to be linked with their sexuality. But if you were a lesbian or a bisexual or someone questioning her sexuality, I think it would be pretty hard to not notice that Willow and Tara were pretty much the only game in town when it comes to long-term lesbian couples on network tv. And when one of them gets a bullet through the heart, it's not like you can just flip the channel and find another show with another long-term lesbian couple to obsess about. Willow and Tara were pretty unique, an endangered species you might say. And with Seeing Red, Joss and ME chose to destroy one half of our rare, endangered couple.

So forgive me for not being thankful that at least Willow survived and that hope springs eternal.

[Dave V]

[quote:91c6f025d6][b:91c6f025d6][i:91c6f025d6]Quote:[/i:91c6f025d6][/b:91c6f025d6]

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Willow and Tara were never "lesbians'.

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[/quote:91c6f025d6]
No flaming, just pointing out the obvious:
[quote:91c6f025d6][b:91c6f025d6][i:91c6f025d6]Quote:[/i:91c6f025d6][/b:91c6f025d6]

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"We're in love. We're...lovers. We're lesbian, gay-type lovers."

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[/quote:91c6f025d6]
is how Willow described her relationship wih Tara when they were questioned by the Watcher's Council in season 5's Checkpoint.

[xita]

toskp10 that's right it hasn't made any negative impact on you. It's impacted negatively on people who have no voice, closeted teenagers on the verge of suicide, but I am glad you are ok.

BTW, if you aren't here to share the w/t love, don't come back to post here.

[supermus]

While I do agree that saying "no comment" would give something away, YOU STILL DON"T LIE! And besides, he did it in the most hurtful way possible. He said that Tara was the heart of the show, and this plot clearly showed that he never thought of her as anything more than a plot device. Besides, he could say "And spoil the surprise? Never!" or something like that, where it could be either way. He didn't have to lie.

[Hemiola]

Um, toskp10, if you watched "Checkpoint", you surely heard Willow refer to her and Tara's relationship as
"Lesbian Gay-Type Lovers".

Is there something there that wasn't clear to you???????

[BoredNow99]

Well I read toskp10 's post then had to go away from the thread for a bit 'cos I was too angry for coherent thought.

Then, when I came back, I found y'all had said everything I'd wanted to.

So thanks. You can always count on the kittens to give reasoned and intelligent responses.

And I'm gonna leave it at that, because I wouldn't want to let the side down

[Willowlicious]

[quote:4333ffbb24][b:4333ffbb24][i:4333ffbb24]Quote:[/i:4333ffbb24][/b:4333ffbb24]

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One last point (for now) which will almost certainly get me flamed to death, Willow and Tara were never "lesbians". Obviously they were lesbians, but to my (nieve) view they were just a couple. There was never a need to label them a lesbian couple. It didn't matter. It shouldn't matter. I believe this was what Joss was aiming for, I can't recall the word "lesbian" being used (Willow does say "Gay now" in Triangle, see I have seen the show). Thats why when I did see Seeing Red thinking "They killed the lesbian charachter" couldn't have been further from my mind.

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[/quote:4333ffbb24]



We already know they were more than just a "lesbian couple." Duh. They were people. We've known that all along. It's straight people who have, over the centuries, had to learn that gay people are "just people," like everyone else. So, we definitely don't need straight people dropping by to say "Tara was more than just a lesbian!" Well, no kidding. We've been on that page since the beginnng of time. Thanks for catching up.

What people who are not the minority in question, in this case lesbians, have a problem understanding is the fact that a character's minority status IS relevant when their representation in the media is so low. Tara wasn't just a lesbian, but the fact that she [i:4333ffbb24] was[/i:4333ffbb24] a lesbian matters very much. It does not matter what Joss Whedon intended when he brought Tara, who happened to be a lesbian, onto the show. What matters is that BECAUSE there are so few good lesbian characters on television, lesbians (and gays) focused on W/T both because they were portrayed in a rare good light and because they were practically the only show in town. A situation such as this becomes political. It cannot be avoided. Because gays still suffer from mass inequality in almost every area of life, being gay is political in itself. It just is. Gay people do not have the rights that most Americans enjoy. Until we do, our very lives are political.

In turn, anyone, such as Joss Whedon, who takes on a gay issue on television is walking into a political situation. It cannot be avoided. Once again, because gays do not have equal rights, the way they are portrayed in the media HAS CONSEQUENCES. People are watching. For some reason, Mr. Whedon has been surprised by this rather obvious revelation twice. The first time when homophobes and the Christian Right objected to Willow and Tara getting together, and now that some in the gay community are protesting the cliched manner of Tara's death. But people are watching on all sides. Why? Because it is a tense, [b:4333ffbb24] monumentally important[/b:4333ffbb24] political situation in which [i:4333ffbb24] every move matters[/i:4333ffbb24].

For gay people Willow and Tara weren't just characters. They were our only fair representation. Our hope. Our pride. No they weren't just gay characters. They were good, and heroic, and loving, and funny, and bad, and sad...and they were gay. They were everything else AND they were gay. The fact that being gay was only part of a long list made it all the more important [i:4333ffbb24] because we are fighting specific stereotypes[/i:4333ffbb24] that have political ramifications.

I keep thinking of Whoopi Goldberg's comments about Lt. Uhura on the original [i:4333ffbb24] Star Trek[/i:4333ffbb24] series. Whoopi has often told the tale that it was seeing Lt. Uhura on television that first impressed on her that she could be somebody--in fact, she could be anybody she wanted to be. It had never occured to her before, because she'd never seen a black woman portrayed on TV in a meaningful role. The very few black women she saw had lowly positions. Then one day she spotted Uhura as a [i:4333ffbb24] bridge officer[/i:4333ffbb24] on a starship. She ran from the living room into the kitchen screaming to her mother, "Mama! Mama! There's a black lady on TV and she ain't no maid!"

Well, right now, the few lesbians on TV almost always die. Some of us here got excited when we saw Willow and Tara. Some of us thought, like Whoopi, that we were finally going to see something different and it was an important moment. "Hey, there are some lesbians on TV and they're real people and the creator even says he's not going to kill them!"

But then he did. And it matters. It matters very much.

My life is political because I am gay. I have to deal with the fact that I can't get married even though I've been committed to one person for over six years. I have to deal with a neighbor who refuses to let his kids talk to me because he just figured out that I'm gay. I've had to deal with friends so distraught over their homosexuality that they wanted to kill themselves. While I fight these everyday battles, I also have to live with the knowledge that the ONLY positive lesbian couple on TV has been destroyed in a cliched manner. I needed W/T because they represented me. My country needed W/T because they represented the beauty and relevence of gay relationships. My neighbor needed W/T because they represented that gay people are good and decent and can be just as good with children as anyone else. My friends needed W/T because they represented hope of happiness when there is little hope to be found elsewhere in the media.

Willow and Tara were needed. They were needed alive and as a couple. They weren't just characters. They were hope and freedom and representation.

Now they're just a cliche.

I don't get to walk away from the politics of that atrocity. Neither should Joss Whedon.

Amy

[WilTaraFan]

I'm just curious, does what happened on Xena: Warrior Princess, you know, how it ended, does that fall into the cliche at all. Just wondering.

Kudos!!!

[relativegirl]

Can we elect Amy president? Or, in honor of the jubilee, can we elect her queen? 'Cause I for one would be happy to follow her into any battle, any where any time.

Amy, your post was simply brilliant.

[AutumnT]

God Amy. I wish I had your gift for words. That was brilliant. And it pains me that we have to work so hard - even here in our house - to be understood.

[BoredNow99]

Amy, that was fantastic. Superb. I'm so thankful the kitten board has people like you around. You're essential

And yeah, Autumn, there are too many places where we have to keep hammering these points home.

But here should never be one of them.

[Dumbsaint]

Amy, I can't thank you enough for being able to so articulately sum up and express what I am often unable to. You made my day, babe. Once again.

[BytrSuite]

Damn, Amy. Your posts are so brilliant. I'm often struck with the urge to save them so I can read them whenever I need help focusing my thoughts on this subject. You just have such a clear way of saying things, and I don't know how people still miss the point of it all when you're here stating it so simply and matter-of-factly. Plus, you make the good kind of sense, which is way more than I can usually manage. Thanks for posting.

[Killin Joke]

It's "Battle on!" alright... Keep fighting for the greater good, y'all Now, as a Xenite, I have to answer WillTaraFan's question: does the Xena-ending fall under the Evil/Dead lesbian clich...

Well, it's tricky, really: first of all, no matter how you turn and twist it, they were never totally outed. Personally, I've evolved from clueless to subtexter to maintexter (especially the 6th season was sooo obvious, with all the name-calling 'Xena!', 'Gabrielle!': almost became a parody -> in that way, it was cool to see W/T out, for real, for sure, no doubt about it). Anyway, let's say they were lesbians. Duh. No wishful thinking, make-belief. I, myself, needed them to be. /period/

There's a difference between Xe and Tara's death. First of all, Xena turned from ordinary (well, as much as possible, this is Xena) village girl to bad warrior princess, evil Destroyer of Nations, to good, thanks to Gab. Kind of reversed: in the end she's a dead lesbian, but definitely not evil. And Gabrielle doesn't change into an evil lesbian burning down Japan to the ground. On the contrary, both find themselves in a state of enlightment. Xe finds some sort of redemption (which she never expected to achieve) and Gabrielle understands in the end, wants her to have it, knows it's something she has to do, unlike us, fans (including myself: I'm not on that spiritual level (yet)).

Also, big remark: they got a chance to say goodbye: granted, it was very brief, and heartwrenching, but still... I've been torn, devastated, wrung through the whole emotional wheel of feelings: unbelief-anger-sadness-denial... I've thought it over again, and again, and... I've come to terms with it. I'm not saying I gladly accept it, but there were some elements that softened the bitter pill: mutual agreement: sure, Gab struggles in the beginning (reflection of the fan's reactions) but after that she's with Xena all the way, as always. Their love endures, anything, stands out. The last close-up we saw was of them with smiles on their faces: I'll always remember that image. I'll treasure their good times forever.

But as far as an answer's concerned: yes, Xena falls under the dead lesbian clich. I hadn't heard of the evil dead lesbian clich before I came here, but I did notice a lot of lesbians get killed, every single time... And quite frankly, it sucks, coz everybody else around here (well, most of us <G>) has said it: it's not like you can switch channels and see another lesbian couple make out, like there are so many heterosexual couples. It's not fair

Willow and Tara then: they fit the clich perfectly. Next to Tara's death, Xena's doesn't seem "that" tragic (and you have no idea how odd this is for me to type). Because: stupid accident, shot in the back, Willow didn't get the chance to say goodbye, instead she turns mental... Sorry but Xena's storyline contained holes the size of Mount Olympus, though at least we saw it coming (somewhat): the Way of the Warrior, live and die with a sword in her hand, her quest, the greater good,... Tara's death came out of the blue, and for what ? There were enough triggers to turn Will without Tara having to die... As people pointed out: if Tara would have jumped in front of Will to protect her in a fight... I mean, anything would have made more sense than this...

The longer I think about it, the longer it stinks. It's so easy: gun-accidents happen all the time... but in the meantime, another one bites the dust: I'm getting sick and tired of seeing good lesbians going down (and not on each other <G>) We desperately need those rolemodels out there, and television is one of the most powerful media in our society. Sometimes you just wish you could watch into a crystal ball to view whether or not it gets better in x years from here. Until then, I'm sincerely happy I have found this board with broad-minded kitties

[crmp]

hi all,

i've been following the postings for a while now, but until now have not been moved to "speak." two thoughts:

first, re: the FAQ, it's great. thanks. one small (small. minor) point; "heavenly creatures," with Kate Winslet, although *based* on a true story, is not actually a true story. there are plenty of websites that can give in-depth info on the actual events, newsclippings, etc, but what it boils down to is this: the two girls in the movie are now grown women who have legally changed theirs names and tried to live their lives anonymously. they have not succeeded (one is Anne Perry, the mystery novelist), and they deny any lesbianism that the movie might imply. whether this is good or bad, i leave you to judge for yourself.

second, re: the bile and bitterness floating around following toskp10's posts. whether i agree with toskp10 or not (sorry, tosk, i don't) i think that the majority of responses to her arguments were reactionary and served to potentially alienate a potential friend. is it okay to shun someone simply because s/he disagrees with you? until now, this message board had been a "safe" space for me. now, i don't know if i'll return. instead of catty name-calling, why not take the opportunity to educate? okay, so someone (perhaps lots more someones, who haven't actually posted) does not understand/get the point of the FAQ. so what? try explaining it in a different way. don't just start the mud-slinging. (on the other hand, thanks to those who did take the time to re-explain.)

perhaps this post will inspire people to new go to new lengths of name-calling. i hope not. perhaps i'll be disqualified because i'm either straight or the wrong kind of lesbian. i normally don't respond to this kind of thing, because i don't want to fuel the fire. but after the calm, well-thought-out FAQ, it hurts and embarasses me to have its educational impact potentially wiped out because of reactionary posting.

for my (short) part, in response to toskp10 -- you said that you hadn't read the whole FAQ. i would say, (although it's long) read it, and then see what your response is. also, the link
www.camprehoboth.com/issu...ntcamp.htm
pointed out by someone (sorry, forget who) might help shed some light on the cliche in history. and if you're genuinely interested, read or watch "the celluloid closet," or check out Lillian Faderman's "surpassing the love of men" or "odd girls and twilight lovers." i forget which is which, but i think that "odd girls" has a whole chapter on "vampire lesbians" (etc -- and that's Faderman's term, not mine. no pun intended) as seen in old pulp novels, while the other has a general theme of it throughout a few chapters. if it's simply the reality of the whole cliche that you doubt, there are plenty of other sources that illustrate it -- and once you see the pattern independent of Buffy, it's easy to see how the show fits into it.

thank you all for reading!
crmp

[Warduke]

The thing is the people here are tired of explaining this over and over to those who don't even take the time to actually read what they're replying too.

And as for potentially alienating a potential friend...someone who says W/T are not lesbians is [b:32fe930a88] no[/b:32fe930a88] friend of mine or this board.

[relativegirl]

[quote:885a0d9063][b:885a0d9063][i:885a0d9063]Quote:[/i:885a0d9063][/b:885a0d9063]

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"heavenly creatures," with Kate Winslet, although *based* on a true story, is not actually a true story. . . the two girls in the movie are now grown women who have legally changed theirs names and tried to live their lives anonymously. they have not succeeded (one is Anne Perry, the mystery novelist), and they deny any lesbianism that the movie might imply.

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[/quote:885a0d9063]
Doesn't this fact give further credence to the point of the Lesbian Cliche FAQ? If the lesbian angle in the movie was not based on reality, and was only introduced by the film makers, isn't that even more offensive than if the entire film were true?

The story of two girls who murder one of their mothers is sufficiently dramatic on its own. Matricide is one of the truly classic themes in western literature after all. To then add a fictional lesbian angle to the story is gratuitous, unnecessary and insulting. What purpose would it serve except to add another negative cinematic example of lesbian sexuality linked with violence and murder?

[urnofosiris]

[quote:35acec1035][b:35acec1035][i:35acec1035]Quote:[/i:35acec1035][/b:35acec1035]

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why not take the opportunity to educate?

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[/quote:35acec1035]

Eh, you posted this after [b:35acec1035] Willowlicious'[/b:35acec1035] post. What was her post if not education in the clearest of terms?
Thank you Amy, a fantastic post. I really wish Joss Whedon would read it, I'd like to hear him reply to it and see if he can still claim his equal treatment and justify the lies and see if he is still so sure that this story hurt him more than you or us.

[toskp10]

In my defense I had read the whole FAQ. It was the 11 pages of comments that I hadn't read.
To crmp: I think you are exaggerating when you talk about the mud-slinging and name calling. I do not feel like a victim of anything like that. Yes, the posts were reactionary, but it was a reaction that I expected. And please don't apologies for having a different opinion than mine.
Having said that, my presence is obviously disruptive (which was not my intention) and counter to the "spirit" of the forum. This will be my last post (although I don't discount the possibility of lurking).
I'd like to thank Willowlicious (Amy?) and everyone else for their rational and restrained responses (thank you for pulling the punches). I came here (from the excellent site "All Things Philosophical on BtVS") thinking the creators were being critized unduly. I had never heard of the Evil/Dead Lesbian Cliche (but it immediately rang true) and didn't think it applied to Seeing Red, but I can see now they caused more damage than I thought. Perhaps Joss and ME aren't so innocent here.
Some points I'd like to raise points (I'm fairly sure they aren't as controversial as my previous ones).
I'd thought seen all episodes, but I can't remember any dead or evil lesbians in Millenum or Quantum Leap. Anyone care to enlighten the un-informed.
"Your Shirt" story-line?
Finally the big one. Ok, this cliche is a problem. What can be done? How do you raise awareness without generating bad press and risk damaging the show (which I believe no-one here wants)?
"It's "Battle on!" alright... Keep fighting for the greater good, y'all"
These are fighting words, and I don't think you can change peoples perceptions if you take a confrontational attitude.
Seeing as my gender is in question, and I'm fairly sure my status on the forum can't get much lower, I will confirm that I am a him.
Be seeing you.
Thomas.
P.S. I loved Willow and Tara and I though they were the best thing about the show.

[Killin Joke]

I typed:
"It's "Battle on!" alright... Keep fighting for the greater good, y'all"
toskp 10 typed:
These are fighting words, and I don't think you can change peoples perceptions if you take a confrontational attitude.

My reply:
Sorry if these words came across as a tinge too aggressive. I meant them in a figurative way of speaking, not literally of course. I don't want to stir up any angry lesbian revolts to wreak havoc upon the world. <G> It's just: I'm a Xenite, and this Xenaverse vocabulary is pretty hard to lose (not that I ever want too ).

Xena said at one time: "Sometimes you gotta stand and fight (for what you believe in)." With "Battle on!" I meant lesbians are fighting a continuous struggle for acceptance.
"Keep fighting for the greater good" was an encouragement to do just that, never give up (on who you are). There are many ways to fight though, and I do believe sometimes you can change people's perceptions if you confront them (not violantly). Willow and Tara on BtVS did just that. I'm sure a lot of people looked differently towards lesbians, more positive, after seeing our cute couple on tv. Exposing people to good portrayels is a worthy cause, but no matter how you weigh it, it will always be a confrontation. And history proved no changes were made while sitting on our lazy bum, doing nothing. It's "act, don't react".
What can we do ? Well, it doesn't have to be anything big, major (it could be of course, depends). For me personally, if I can post on this forum, and engage in conversations, sharing my thoughts, feelings, maybe comfort a few people along the way... It's not much, but at least it's a start

[xita]

This is our home. Here, we do not pull punches, no one has ever pulled them with us, not since the beginning of this storyline. Tara's fat, Tara's ugly, they have no chemistry, they act like sister. One gets tired of turning the other cheek. We always did and our reward... well you know.

There are other things some people are doing to raise awareness in appropriate context with appropriate tone.

I personally don't care if it damages BtVS and/or Mutant Enemy. In fact, I hope it does. In fact, I think it already has.

[crgn(d)]

toskp10, thanks for your input and sense of humor. I'm a long-time lurker who has stayed silent out of respect (and some fear of reprisal!) since the mission of this board is to provide a place for like-minded persons to express their similar feelings to one-another. Since I don't always agree with everything here, it seems best simply to lurk.

[b:92c618fdae] if you have questions for the moderators, you can email us[/b:92c618fdae]

[urnofosiris]

toskp10, your gender is not an issue, many hims on this board actually. Tackling this issue without being confrontational is all but impossible I think, especially when some people on that show have been so totally in our face offensive and dismissive of what they have done. I do not care either if the show gets hurt now, I do care about some people on it, but the show in general no more. Whedon et al. hurt so many good people and some ME-ers do not seem to care, they could repair some of the damage they have done, but instead they seem completely unwilling to even consider it or acknowledge it and I fear whenever they open their mouths they will only add more insult to more injury.

[WebWarlock]

Quite frankly if I can generate press and inform people of the cliche AND damage ME in the process, then I am more than happy.

They took something from me in a vile and horrible manner, and then they spit in my face and tell I am not important.

Well pay backs are a bitch.

My karma is good, I can afford a little sensless outburst.
Joss' isn't.

Warlock