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Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

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Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby Killin Joke » Wed Jun 05, 2002 5:07 am

/chuckle/, Warlock ;) Beware of bad karma... /insert spooky noice/ I have faith: it'll come back to him three times :evil
Killin Joke
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby Hemiola » Wed Jun 05, 2002 7:26 am

I hardly saw the "battle on" as confrontational, but rather as a cute quote/reference to "XWP":) .

Besides, it's no more "confrontational" than what Paul Robeson used to do whenever he sang Jerome Kern's "Ol' Man River": he regularly changed the penultimate line from "I'm tired of livin', and scared of dyin'" to "I'll keep on fightin', until I'm dyin'". It was his way of using his art to spark awareness of injustice.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Interviewer to Paul Robeson in the early 1960s: "Are you involved with the civil rights struggle?"
PR: "I've been involved with it all my life."
Hemiola
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby Killin Joke » Wed Jun 05, 2002 8:11 am

Aw, thank you so much, sweetie ;) Glad someone got the analogy, Hemiola :)
Killin Joke
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby mebe8lisa(d) » Wed Jun 05, 2002 6:53 pm

I havent seen the episode where Tara dies, and i dont wanna know how she dies, but i did hear that she is in the opening credits in i think it was 'Seeing Red'.
So is there any chance that Joss will bring her back?
I mean, why would they put her in the opening credits, only to kill her off and never bring her back. It doesnt make any sense at all. How many opening credits did she en up appearing in, only 'seeing red' or the ones after it too?
And last but not least. Has Joss said that he will never bring her back, or anything about it at all. I could never hate Joss or Buffy the vampire slayer as a tv show either, but i have finally understood why everyone is so upset. The whole cliche, well i wasnt really aware of it, but iam now, so thanks, im glad that im finally in the loop:)
mebe8lisa(d)
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby AutumnT » Wed Jun 05, 2002 7:01 pm

She is only in the credits for [i:f91630195b] Seeing Red[/i:f91630195b] and Joss has said Tara's story is over. But then again he's a liar. So now you are up to speed.
AutumnT
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby neroden1 » Wed Jun 05, 2002 7:13 pm

another reason Xena does a little better at escaping the cliche is that in the *pen*ultimate episode (which they should have just stopped with, IMHO), it ends with Xena and Gabrielle walking off together hand in hand... admittedly in future reincarnations, and in a very goofy storyline, but hey, it's there. So although we see Xena die, we *already* know that they get back together!

Nothing like that happened on Buffy.
neroden1
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby semiramis » Wed Jun 05, 2002 8:42 pm

I'm on a localised XENA list in Australia, and we are having a discussion on the spoilers for the end of S6 Buffy.

And yet again, I am having to talk to people who just don't get the whole lesbian cliche.......one poster who I have always had a great deal of respect for, has just announced that Tara was expendable, and that her death wasn't a cliche *grr* I have posted the link to this thread in my response, and also posted that excellent article on the popmatters website. (all credit given to the writer).

But I just REALLY needed to vent...........
semiramis
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby tyche » Wed Jun 05, 2002 11:19 pm

Tangentially related, I know, but I came across this article giving some interesting statistics:
news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/entertainment/tv_and_radio/newsid_2027000/2027161.stm
tyche
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby Killin Joke » Thu Jun 06, 2002 12:27 am

Exactly, neroden1 ! I don't know what you mean by "*pen* ultimate episode" exactly: Soul Possession could be it (When Fates Collide was also a favourite, or even Many happy returns: gotta love that title)
Anyway, in Xena we did get to see Xena desperately wandering off in search for her soulmate, which lead her to the amazon land of the dead. Elysian Fields, Tartarus, Heaven, Hell, karmic circles, descendants, alternative dimensions,... You name it, they've been there. You know these two will always find each other, no matter what, which is comforting.

And that's what really ticks me off (we are talking big timebomb here). Willow and Tara have everything Xe and Gab had, only more realistic (well, as far as Sunnydale goes), closer to our modern day and age. They were out in the open. They had the quotes: I got so lost. I found you, I will always find you. She's my everything. And so on. And then they pull a stupid stunt like that: in favour of the plot ? I don't think so. The plotline sucked beyond belief. Tara's death was meaningless, didn't serve a higher purpose or something. I don't know if they can fix this still and I'm not getting my hopes up, with all the lies, betrayel. If this is a cliffhanger, they should outlaw these nasty things. This isn't over yet, I don't have closure. To leave us with so much gloom and doom, is just plain cruel. I think I'm off to write some happy fanfic after my oral exam :)
Killin Joke
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby Thanatopsis » Thu Jun 06, 2002 7:57 am

Very interesting and not completely surprising, at least to the cynic in me. It's also interesting how there's one excutive saying they're proud of the amount of diversity they've put forth. Just because you have a show with more than 50% black people does not make you diverse.
Thanatopsis
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby stephenboothuk » Thu Jun 06, 2002 9:02 am

[quote:70523f1eb7]"It's "Battle on!" alright... Keep fighting for the greater good, y'all"
These are fighting words, and I don't think you can change peoples perceptions if you take a confrontational attitude.[/quote:70523f1eb7]

Just out of interest what do you think people like Ghandi, Steven Biko, Martin Luther King and Jesus Christ (I'm not a Christian, I just happen to think that most of what Christ said and did, as was reported in the gospels, was good advice and an example worth following) were doing? Change, pretty much by definition, requires confrontation and challenge. Without confrontation the status quo will remain unchanged. Very often massive social changes just require someone to stand up and confront the hide bound and offer a counter view.

Incidentally I had a mail today from Yahoo to say that my page with the FAQ on (http://www.abooth.demon.co.uk/lesbiancliche.htm)will be added to their database in the next round of updates. The person who vetted the page (all additions are now examined by a human being) added a personal comment to the mail:
[quote:70523f1eb7]Message from lgriff:
Thanks for some intelligent commentary on this one![/quote:70523f1eb7]

Edited to say that the site has appeared in the Yahoo! 'Society and Culture' and 'News and Media' directories. I've been getting quite a few hits through them, the page broke 1000 unique hits this morning a few minutes after 8:00am UK time (just after midnight LA) after 3 weeks and 2 days from when I put it up. Interestingly I seem to be getting hits which indicate that the page has been linked from Microsoft's own internal intranet. Haven't seen anything from fox.com yet.

Stephen
stephenboothuk
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby crgn(d) » Thu Jun 06, 2002 9:34 am

I posted this over at BCS earlier today and had exactly one person willing to engage in extended discussion. Feel free to adapt to faq if relevant.



What if Warren had been cast with an African-American actor? Everything else remains exactly the same, including the very realistic death by lynching. (Many lynchings did include burning the person while still alive.)

Would the fact that he's being treated like every other character trump the imagery of a black man being lynched? Would there be so many "true fans" saying 'You hyper-sensitive black folks just need to get a grip. You must have started watching only because his character was added, you don't know the whole story, you have no reason to complain. Obviously he wasn't lynched BECAUSE he's black, but BECAUSE he's evil, so you need to get a grip and stop being so emotional. I didn't take it as a BLACK MAN being lynched, just a big bad being killed, so therefore you shouldn't see it as a lynching, either. It's JUST a FICTIONAL TV SHOW, afterall! I wouldnt blame ME if they never have another black character to to avoid this kind of negative backlash!'

Or would the impact of the specific image of a black man being lynched be so egregious that most everyone would agree (today, as opposed to 60 years ago) that the reason for that death in that manner couldn't possibly be justified or overlooked? Wouldn't it be acceptable, even required that tptb find another way to kill Warren? Couldn't some other way for Willow to kill Warren still advance the story without bringing about significant emotional distress to a small portion of the audience?

Before you start in with "but it's not the same," I know it's not the same. No analogy is ever exactly the same. The larger point is, the specific imagery is very distressing for a small number of people. Most Americans who are not black have come to accept that a picture of a lynched black man is not something to be proud of or sent as a post card souvenir (yes, this did happen in the not so distant past). But it took a lot of hard work and much time to get more and more people to understand how truly offensive that image is.

So even though you may not now understand how or why some people are offended by the dissolution of a lesbian couple on a tv show through the specific imagery of make-up sex followed by death to one and descent into madness by the other, please have the courtesy to accept that their point-of-view is necessarily different from yours, but also valid.
crgn(d)
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby Repost Moderator » Thu Jun 06, 2002 10:43 am

[b:1489e934d9] originally posted by zahir[/b:1489e934d9]

Please forgive as I use an analogy to make a point.

Suppose there?s this cop show. Lets call it ?Protect And Serve? or PAS for short. It concerns a group of friends who all serve together in the police force of a major city. One of the regular characters--Bob Smith--is a hard-working rookie full of youthful idealism. During the course of the series, Bob Smith wins an award for valor in the line of duty. Good for him! That night, he goes celebrating. On the way home, he gets in a car accident. He panics and leaves the scene, where a passenger in the other car later dies of seemingly minor injuries. Upon hearing news of this, he does the very human thing and says nothing. Eventually, the truth comes out and he is forced to give up his badge. He has to do community service in lieu of any jail time, which means working at a homeless shelter. Bob rediscovers a love of cooking. Having to rebuild his life, Bob decides to become a professional chef. Later, we learn he?s gainfully employed at a high-class caterer.

That sounds like a perfectly reasonable storyline. Doesn?t it? And the fact that Bob Smith is black doesn?t seem to make a lot of difference. Not today.

Now assume ?Protect and Serve? debuted on network television in 1960. Imagine this storyline played out at a time when virtually every African American on television was either a criminal or domestic servant. Think how civil rights groups and the African American community in general would have responded to the introduction of Bob Smith! Years of wrongdoers and menials suddenly replaced by a uniformed guardian of the law! Instead of a loser--a Hero! Food for the soul of uncounted thousands, maybe millions, who?d been taught that there own identity, was synonymous with ?pimp? or ?butler.? There would have been Bob Smith Fan Clubs. Young African Americans would have vied with each other to get the actor?s autographed picture. The NAACP might well have given the producers of the show an award. Martin Luther King Jr. would have shaken the hand of the actor playing Bob Smith, thanking him for his good work.

An exaggeration? Actually, that is precisely what happened with Nichelle Nichols when she played Lieutenant Uhura on the original ?Star Trek.?

In this context, what would the reaction be as the Bob Smith storyline unfolded? Should you have trouble imagining it, think how fans would have responded if in ?Star Trek?s? third season Uhura started munching on watermelon every chance she got.

Once you grasp the hypothetical rage that would have greeted such, you might understand how lesbian fans of ?Buffy The Vampire Slayer? feel betrayed. Look around at popular media. Find the regular lesbian characters that are not alone, evil, unhappy or dead. Are there any? Who? How about recurring characters? Well, there was Paul?s sister and her partner on the now-cancelled ?Mad About You.? And on ?Friends? Ross?s ex-wife and her partner (though we can go years without seeing either of them). Anybody else?

Up until a few weeks ago--Tara Mclay and Willow Rosenberg on ?Buffy.? A direct contradiction of every lesbian clich and stereotype ever. Neither was evil, like Intendent Kira on ?Star Trek: DS9? or Catherine in ?Basic Instinct.? They were together in a loving relationship, unlike Dr. Kerry and her would-be paramour on ?ER? or Ivanova and Talia Winters on ?Babylon 5.? They were acknowledged and accepted as in a relationship, unlike the eternally teasing ?Xena, Warrior Princess? or Dax and her former mate on ?Deep Space Nine.? For that matter, unlike Ling and Ally on ?Aly McBeal? or Rachel and her college chum on ?Friends? or the Sheriff?s daughter and her best friend on ?Picket Fences,? both of these characters were gay!

Then Tara was killed, like many lesbians in popular media, leaving Willow alone like most lesbians in popular media. And Willow went practically insane with grief, like most other lesbians in popular media. Followed by Willow going around doing evil, like practically all the other lesbians in popular media.

Had Lieutenant Uhura raised her hands in panic and started screeching ?Massah Kirk, I don? know nothin? ?bout openin? no hailin? frequencies? the sense of betrayal could hardly have been less. To many fans, it was exactly as if Joss Whedon and Mutant Enemy had hurled a big load of phlegm directly into their faces.

While most folks (including this author) doubt such blatant insult was the intention of Mutant Enemy Productions, the effect is what counts here. The whole story of Tara?s death and Willow?s reaction to it was indeed dramatic as well as logical. Had it taken place on a program broadcast a few decades hence when (hopefully) the image of lesbians as people just like everyone else is no longer a controversial or rare one, lots of folks would be less upset. They would have less reason to be. Maybe by then gay bashing will have gone the way of Jim Crow laws, and lesbians will be allowed to legally pledge themselves to each other exactly as heterosexuals may.

But that is the future--a future that feels pushed further away by the actions of Mutant Enemy.
Repost Moderator
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby Repost Moderator » Thu Jun 06, 2002 10:46 am

[b:e83941ad7d] originally posted by webwarlock[/b:e83941ad7d]
Zahir,

Funny thing you should mention this.

I have been giving my wife the crash course on all things Kitten, and she (being the hard core trekkie that she is) pointed out Uhura.

Dr. Martin Luther King himself told Nichelle Nichols that by being in that chair on the Enterprise she was doing good for all the young girls out there. Black and White.

Tara and Willow were something like that. Like Star Trek, Buffy is genre television, a place where you can take risks. But while Rodenberry was a visionary. Whedon is man controlled by his own ego.
Rodenberry had a vision for the future where we all worked together. We still had problems sure, but we were coming out of our childhood.
Whedon does things to primarily feed his ego. If it is good for the fans, then great. If not, well we are only fans.

Whedon want's the accolades, but he does not want any of the responsibilty.

That is why 30+ years later we still talk about Star Trek. Who will be talking about Buffy in 2030?

Warlock.
Repost Moderator
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby Repost Moderator » Thu Jun 06, 2002 10:47 am

[b:606ec5ae52] Originally posted by WilTaraFan[/b:606ec5ae52]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I really mean no offense to WebWarlock when I say this...but I'd hope everyone who was a one hundred percent Will/Tara fan will always remember Buffy if for no other reason, than for their relationship. No matter how many years pass.

Again, don't mean to offend if I did. Sorry, in case I offended you.

Kudos!!!
Repost Moderator
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby Repost Moderator » Thu Jun 06, 2002 10:48 am

[b:a7e64bf009] Originally posted by Hair Annoyed[/b:a7e64bf009]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Zahir, you might want to edit out all of those question marks as they make an otherwise excellent essay a little bit difficult to read. I do take exception to one point you made, and that is that the Tara dead/Willow evil story line was dramatic and logical. I don't think it was logical and its dramatic impact was greatly reduced by its illogic. While I repect your opinion, I think it's important that people reading this essay know that not all Kittens agree with you on that point.
Repost Moderator
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby Repost Moderator » Thu Jun 06, 2002 10:50 am

[b:9f83e6e5c0] Originally posted by Sheridan[/b:9f83e6e5c0]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
WiltaraFan I don't think anyone is plannign to foget. It's just that instead of being the warm recollection of a wonderful romance and a major step forward for the portrayal of gays on TV it will be the sad memory of something special that was destroyed for one mans ego.
Repost Moderator
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby Repost Moderator » Thu Jun 06, 2002 10:51 am

[b:545a91ae1d] Originally posted by WilTaraFan[/b:545a91ae1d]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have a question Sheridan. Does every Kitten feel that way? I mean, does everyone at the board think it was just for Joss's ego. Is it at all possible that the whole Tara shooting thing just be a setup for bringing her back later. I was just wondering.

Kudos!!!
Repost Moderator
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby xita » Thu Jun 06, 2002 10:58 am

Well obviously not everyone as your post seems to indicate.
As far as I am concerned though, that point is irrelevant. When Angel was sent to hell, they were quick to tell us that he would come back , he was a regular after all. When Buffy died they made sure to tell us she would come back, she's the star after all.

When Tara died, they were quick to tell us, her story is over, she was just a tool to get Willow to go evil. So if Amber comes back, don't expect it to be Tara.

However, I get distracted that is not the point. Whether she comes back or not, my beef is not with that. The damage has been done. The horrible way she died, her blood has been spilled. There is nothing that Joss Whedon can ever do to change that.

Was it for ego? From here it sure looks like. He wanted to do it to create a storyline he believed would bring him praise (evil Willow) and because well, he wasn't going to be told he couldn't kill a lesbian. E - G - O
xita
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby Sheridan » Thu Jun 06, 2002 11:08 am

[quote:02f55e821b][b:02f55e821b][i:02f55e821b]Quote:[/i:02f55e821b][/b:02f55e821b]
Is it at all possible that the whole Tara shooting thing just be a setup for bringing her back later. I was just wondering
[/quote:02f55e821b]
It's possible he intends to bring her back, but in my mind that just makes the killing worse, and it makes him more egotistical not less. Thinking he can simply put us through the hoops and we will simply sit up and applaud like performing seals because he has been so clever.
Sheridan
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby WebWarlock » Thu Jun 06, 2002 11:27 am

WilTaraFan

[quote:f7827a06d8][b:f7827a06d8][i:f7827a06d8]Quote:[/i:f7827a06d8][/b:f7827a06d8]

I really mean no offense to WebWarlock when I say this...but I'd hope everyone who was a one hundred percent Will/Tara fan will always remember Buffy if for no other reason, than for their relationship. No matter how many years pass.
Again, don't mean to offend if I did. Sorry, in case I offended you.

[/quote:f7827a06d8]

No offense taken at all.
I would love it if everyone remembered Willow and Tara, but forgot what show they came from.

Warlock
WebWarlock
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby Zahir al Daoud » Thu Jun 06, 2002 11:42 am

Damned if I can figure out how all those question marks *got* there! And of course the way things are now, I cannot edit them out.

grrrrrr

And for the record, I'm one of those who gives Joss Whedon & company the benefit of the doubt. Up till now I've been very impressed with his work. I continue to respect and admire most of what he and ME have done. One of my points was that the Death of Tara/Rising of Dark Willow storyline *does* make sense (if I was in Willow's position I might well react as she did) and it certainly keeps most viewers at the edge of their seats (as evidenced by reactions to the season finale by others). My objection was that to do *that* storyline at *this* time was a shockingly bad idea. We don't live in a time when bigotry against lesbians is something uttered by crackpots and extremists. That prejudice, sadly, is still too often the law of the land and enthusiastically supported by mainstream institutions.

[i:d2616de54d]That fact[/i:d2616de54d] is one of which ME lost sight. I don't believe this was the result of malice, but short-sightedness. My greatest hope is that this issue will open some eyes, including some who shouldn't have closed them in the first place.

And that concludes this tossing in of my couple of pennies.
Zahir al Daoud
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby EffieBlue » Thu Jun 06, 2002 6:30 pm

The whole story arc..IMHO was decided by Joss a long time ago,, he has always had his "vision" of killing a main character in the episode they were put in the credits.. and his vision of Taras blood splattered over Willows shirt fit nicely into that. He had a vision..he wrote a story to encompass that. no matter it was rubbish. no matter it pissed off most true Buffy fans....it was what he wanted. All that stuff about what the fans NEED...was just his justification for the story.
He couldn't and now he won't see past that. NOW he has to justify it by his warped version of equal opportunities..."no one tells me i can't kill the lesbian"....but some where in all this he forgot what Buffy was about. He forgot why i encouraged my daughter to watch...for the heroine...for the monsters running from the girl....for the sidekicks sticking together..for their flaws...and the idea that you can be flawed...you can make mistakes....but...Take care of each other..look after your "family" and you can still make it right you CAN save the world. That's what Buffy was about.
In all of this..one thing above all failed.....Buffy should have saved Willow. She should have been there for her..like Willow has for her on countless occasions. Above all else she should have been there for her "sister" saved her...talked to her about Tara...saved the world by saving Willow. Willow should have collapsed into the arms of Buffy at the end. Buffy is why Willow stayed in Sunnydale, not Xander. Buffy should have finally paid Willow back for all the times she was saved by her.
It should have been heroic at the end..it should have been loving....It wasn't it was pathetic..and it was overall just sad.
It wasn't Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
it was a cheap soap opera.
EffieBlue
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby with catlike tread » Fri Jun 07, 2002 12:39 am

I havent commented on this issue because, well, who really cares about my opinion and, although I dont agree with everything, its not my position to tell people that I think they are wrong (I do that at work!). And as a straight white male I know I will never completely understand.

But one point I very much definitely agree with is that W/T represented something more than just a couple of characters on a TV show. A normal lesbian relationship on a show that attracts a high audience of young people has an impact far beyond the storyline of Buffy.

How can people not see the political ramifications of the relationship? Should they be taken into account? Well, an ivory tower purist would say no, the story is the thing. I can see where that view comes from. But it shows no respect to the reality and context of not only the show but society. Should Buffy be a force for change? Yes, its a show premised on changing perceptions. Is JW boxed into a corner and unable to do anything about the lesbians? Well, no (in my view) - had he brought Tara back before the end of the season or had he said look, I recognise the importance of W/T and Tara will be back next season, I personally would have been satisfied (I know others would not. I also know the story could have been done another way, but I actually think thats a different issue).

Anyway, I broke my silence after reading this story:

[url=http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewCulture.asp?Page=\Culture\archive\200206\CUL20020605c.html]www.cnsnews.com/ViewCultu...0605c.html[/url]

The doubters should have a read, and tell me that W/T had no importance beyond plot devices (in referencing this article I know it isnt telling most of you anything new. In fact, Amy said it all a few pages ago. But it just brings home what the fight is about).

[spree on article: Plans by the Nickelodeon cable television network to air a special on homosexuality and same-sex parenting have outraged thousands of parents, many of whom are threatening to tune out the show - or cancel it altogether.]
with catlike tread
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby relativegirl » Fri Jun 07, 2002 3:44 am

Thanks for posting the link to that article, WCT. I was unaware of that particular furor.

My favorite part of the article is when the producer tries to reassure irate parents by saying: [quote:a76ea18d9e][b:a76ea18d9e][i:a76ea18d9e]Quote:[/i:a76ea18d9e][/b:a76ea18d9e]
She {Rosie O'Donnell} is not the only adult on the set.
[/quote:a76ea18d9e] I realize his main point is that the "gays and lesbians shouldn't be parents" point of view will be represented as well, but what a way of expressing that point. Freudian slip much? *sigh*

During the last part of season 5 and the first part of season 6, I was so happy when I saw that Tara, and to a somewhat lesser extent, Willow, were being portrayed as surrogate moms to Dawn. Seeing Tara mothering Dawn about eating a well-rounded breakfast or green leafy vegetables, or Willow helping her with her homework or Tara checking up on how much homework Dawn had, or staying on the couch with Dawn all night rather than leaving her alone -- these were powerful images that had political significance even if they had no explicit political content. They showed us positive well-liked lesbians nurturing a female child.

I personally never heard or read any criticisms directed at the show about the "inappropriateness" of lesbians spending "unsupervised time" with a teenage girl. Because I didn't hear those tired old complaints, I looked at the W/T-as-surrogate-mommies-storyline as a subtle, but very real, victory. It meant that viewers looked at Willow and Tara as plausible and acceptable moms and their sexuality was irrelevant to their parenting skills.

Which made me particularly disappointed when, in Wrecked, ME chose to have Willow's totally irresponsible behaviour while being alone with Dawn serve as Willow's "wake-up call" about her magic addicition. ME had already muddied the waters with the whole "magic=sex/magic=drugs/magic=seductive power" thing. So showing the lesbian taking the teenage girl to the magic/crack house so that the lesbian can shoot up and have orgasms on the ceiling and then showing the still-high-as-a-kite lesbian driving wildly with the girl in the car until they finally crash was a very disturbing and damaging series of images IMO.

I don't understand how the story would have been compromised if it had been Tara or Buffy, rather than Dawn, who ended up being hurt by Willow's addiction. If ME believed it absolutely had to be Dawn (presumably b/c of her vulnerability and dependence on Willow as the adult), I don't understand why Willow shooting up at Racks had to be as overtly sexualized as it was. Not every powerful intoxicating experience in life is sexually arousing. Just b/c you don't have an orgasm, it doesn't mean that it wasn't a powerful trip. Again, ME specifically chose a storyline in which something bad and violent happens right after the lesbian gets off.

So I think about those parents threatening to boycott Nickolodeon and I have to wonder what the lasting image in their minds would have been if they watched Season 6 -- Tara making pancakes for Dawn or stoned Willow driving Dawn into a cement wall? And as Amy brilliantly pointed out, it's us, not Joss who have to deal with the ramifications of Joss' negative images of lesbians when we meet the Nickolodeon parents in RL. If Joss ever decides he wants to adopt a child do you think he's going to face the same hurdles as I would? Not by a long shot. And yet Joss can actually say out loud that Willow and Tara are just a story and not a political statement. :spin
relativegirl
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby Pegalopolis » Fri Jun 07, 2002 12:20 pm

Well put and amen!

Joss must get dizzy with all the looking-down he does on us, the loyal (or formerly so) fans. :miff
What a blowhard.

P
Pegalopolis
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby tyche » Fri Jun 07, 2002 1:34 pm

Okay, I've got to say that I might be drunk right now (and I'm posting on my sister's laptop computer, which is why I'm not properly logged in), but the article below made absolutely no sense to me whatsoever:
www.dailyherald.com/timeout/movies.asp?intID=3741318
If it made sense to you, please say so....
tyche
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby Lindy » Fri Jun 07, 2002 1:56 pm

September 11th allegory? You see me dumbstruck.
Lindy
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby BBOvenGuy » Fri Jun 07, 2002 2:33 pm

You mean Warren didn't look like Osama bin Laden to you? :rolleyes
BBOvenGuy
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby relativegirl » Fri Jun 07, 2002 3:30 pm

Oh fabulous, Willow as Al Qaeda. Just what we need.

:sh I think ME sent some of their very special crack to a certain Daily Hearld columnist.
relativegirl
 

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