Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

[Sheridan]

[b:53039bf5f2] WebWarlock[/b:53039bf5f2] Interesting, and further proof that ME have no idea what they are doing.

[roamin]

Warlock - believe me when I wrote UPN and FOX I let them know exactly how many "boy viewers" earning the median income, as estimated by the US census, they would have to attract in order to match the buying power of my household.

According to the Gay/Lesbian online census sponsored by the University of Syracuse 48% of gays and lesbians fall into the coveted 18-34 age group and that the median household income for gays/lesbians is $65,000 vs $41,000 for the US average (that's 60% higher than the US average).

So basically, killing Tara was a bad business choice on ME's part.

[xita]

Those statistics surely refer to out gays and lesbians, so i think it's kind of tricky. Nevertheless, what advertisers will take advantage of it? not many.

So from ME's point of view, it is good business sense. Losing Tara, won't mean any loss in advertising for them because so few companies are willing to exploit that.

[WebWarlock]

It doesn't matter if advertisers exploit it or not from Joss' end, it matters if consumers choose to use that market power.

If everyone here stopped buying the products advertised and told them WHY then you would see a shift.

Warlock

[xita]

Honestly, I don't think they would. And they don't see that end of it. They only see the advertisers side of things.

I am not saying gay consumers can't make a difference, I am saying that advertisers are in no way willing to exploit that market and would rather not advertise to us, so Joss is not likely to think of advertisers in terms of the gay dollar.

[roamin]

According the the US census (and this is universally recognized to be an undercount) the gay population is about equal to the Asian population, but has a buying power of about $340 billion dollars vs $240 billion for the Asian community.

Add to it that 48% of that population is in the 18-34 range and has shown that it is willing to respond favorably to companies that it percieves as being "gay friendly" and you've got a group that is pretty appealing to marketers. Subaru isn't the only company to market to gays: Volkswagon, John Hancock Insurance, American Express are a couple that I can think of off the top of my head.

So I would think that courting, not alienating this group would be a smart business tactic if I were one of the suits at UPN.

American Demopgraphics has done a couple of good articles on gay markets and buying power, I think the most recent one was in Dec 2001.

[Unregistered(d)]

Dr. G wrote:
[quote:0d3ac94648][b:0d3ac94648][i:0d3ac94648]Quote:[/i:0d3ac94648][/b:0d3ac94648]

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It puzzles me why someone who would be fan of Amber Benson or Tara would rather accept these things than question them.

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[/quote:0d3ac94648]
Who *would* be a fan?

Simple. It's already happened. I cannot change it. I can rail at the heavens, I can write ME and complain, I could boycott anything Joss did in the future, if I chose. It simply won't change what has happened.

The opposite of acceptance is denial. I refuse to be in denial.

If I want to relive the great moments of the W/T relationship, I can watch reruns any day of the week. Or pop in the 6 hr tape that Sheila WT recently made for us that contains *only* willow & tara moment. I can enjoy Amber's movies and other TV appearances as well. I got to meet her at the con. I have *options*.

[xita]

One can do all those things you described, as I do, and still show dissatisfaction with something one thinks affects society in a negative way. It is also denial to think that certain things don't have a negative impact on society.

You can have a social conscience and still enjoy the good in life, such as the joys of w/t, the wonder of Aly and [b:0f0df8cf73] Amber[/b:0f0df8cf73]

[BBOvenGuy]

Exactly. It all depends on what you call "accepting" the situation.

Do I think Joss is going to put Tara back on the show and reunite her with Willow? Not for a second. In a sense, I have "accepted" that.

But at the same time, I can continue to speak out against it, because through my speaking out, maybe some small portion of the public will be a little more enlightened, or maybe the next people to try a long-term same-sex relationship on TV will think a bit more about the impact of what they're doing. And at the same time, I can speak out - in a sense - by writing my own stories the way I believe stories should be written, instead of taking the irresponsible path that Mutant Enemy took.

Most of all, though, I can continue to speak out because it's the right thing to do, and I need to do the right thing for my own self. For the benefit of my soul, if you don't mind a brief foray into the mystical. There's acceptance and there's acceptance. I can accept that what Mutant Enemy has done will never be undone, but that doesn't mean I have to think it was right.

[Sheridan]

In the end all those people who are defending Joss will go away and find another show to watch, we cna still be here making the point that what he did was wrong. Maybe in the end thats the most we can hope for. To plant that idea so firmly that when people look back they will see it the way we do.

[BBOvenGuy]

I was thinking last night about what this whole mess has done to polarize the [i:74440e6af7] Buffy[/i:74440e6af7] fan community. The one-two punch of Spike's attempted rape and Tara's death might be something the show can never recover from. And if that's the way things turn out, I wonder what Steven DeKnight would say if asked how he felt about writing the episode that singlehandedly caused the show's destruction.

He'd probably think it was cool.

[Repost Moderator]

[b:4578a3bbe6] originally posted by the brilliant bronzer with the ironic name of : RealitySpeaks[/b:4578a3bbe6]
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Since reading extracts from the kitten FAQ from the bronze was responsible for me writing the post below I thought I could just go all the way and cross-post the piece below here too. I hope that the intelligent people on the kitten board will appreciate the irony and recoginze the post as a defence of the creators of the buffy show + friendly advice to you people (if you do not like it, you can delete the post and I will never disturb you again).

------- bronze posting starts here --------------

To help avoid future problems with Buffy and other TV shows apparently mistreating lesbians, here is a first draft of a new guide for making political correct lesbian TV:

1) TV producer must accept that the behavior and storyline for a lesbian character should be in accordance to written and unwritten minority activist anti-clichs, rules and guidelines that may at any time change.
2) Specifically, any lesbian character must always be normal, happy, never go crazy/vengeful and never get killed off - even if such things are clearly the established norm of the show or the storyline may appear to demand it.
3) Once a lesbian character is introduced the producer is no longer in charge of the storyline regarding that character. The producer should refer to the local political officer from the local minority office. Together with some arbitrary minority activists, the officer will make all final decisions about the storyline in order to avoid perceived social harm.
4) When a show contains a lesbian character the complete potions of the scripts involving that character must be published on the Internet at least 6+ months in advance to broadcasting.
5) The minority activists being infallible about all things and obviously supremely qualified in making TV - reserve all rights to second guess, slander and censor the producer(s), director(s) and writer(s) of the show.

Overstated facts and irony set aside, people should be aware that Joss took a great risk by introducing Tara and her relationship with Willow. But in the current hostile environment being fostered by overzealous minority activists, offensive to producers and other viewers alike, I do wonder if Joss or any other producer is willing to introduce lesbian characters in the future?

The lesbian going crazy thing might be clich for some people, but looking at it from the outside, that appears to be exactly what the gay activists have been doing over Taras death. Lesbian activist should consider just how much they are hurting themselves in their collective Tara craze.

For the record, I am a Willow/Tara fan and I have nothing against lesbians (even though I dare risk being called names by strongly disagreing with some of them on the Tara death thing)... If I were a woman I would be a
lesbian too :-)f

[xita]

[quote:fe8b1d1f7e][b:fe8b1d1f7e][i:fe8b1d1f7e]Quote:[/i:fe8b1d1f7e][/b:fe8b1d1f7e]

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If I were a woman I would be a lesbian too :-)f

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[/quote:fe8b1d1f7e]

Oh you have a sense of humor that would rival SKD. Lesbian's only purpose in life isn't to titilate, I know it's hard to believe, but there you go.

Here's some advice, read the [b:fe8b1d1f7e] entire[/b:fe8b1d1f7e] FAQ. Then read through the board. When you finish doing that, then you will find out how stupid your post sounds. Oh and next time, don't try so hard to sound like Rush Limbaugh.

[Latsric]

I love how people have nothing better to do than post something like this and sit back and wait for our reaction. Well, I for one have updates to check for over on pens and hopefully when I come back here this troll's post will have been pushed far enough back by more intelligent discussion that I won't have to see it ever again.

btw, just wanted to say thank you to all the kittens who have posted such great articles and arguments about this topic. you are all more articulate than I am, so its nice to be able to read your views.

-lat-

[Sheridan]

The one thign that stands out for me, apart from the quaint assumption that all the Kittens are lesbians, is this 'the storyline demanded it' nonsense. The storyline was not handed down from on high carved in stone. it was simply an idea that occured to Joss. Guess when you write you get dozens of them, some are good some are bad and unfortunately every so often you pick one of the bad ones. Well this was Joss' time. Even if you were to accept that argument would it hurt for someone from ME just to treat the upset fans with a little courtesy and respect? I'm sure [b:fc1298b69e] RealitySpeaks[/b:fc1298b69e] is hugely disappointed that he can't run back to the Bronze and report how those nasty Kittens took down his post and banned him.

[Kieli]

Well inciting flaming wars is the pasttime of the intelligence-impaired. Their posts usually lack imagination and true argumentative style. Quite frankly it's almost laughable. They couldn't even come up with a more original rebuttal other than Lesbian TV Guidelines. That doesn't even pack enough punch for me to raise an eyebrow. Apparently they haven't been really watching the show, just some facsimile. I hope this person knows that, really, many of the television writers out there were fans once, just like us. Thus, we know of whence we speak. RealitySpeaks can't really "look at it from the outside" and make an informed opinion. He/she has obviously never been on the inside to start with (you know, being one of those straight people who just can't see what all the fuss is about).

In short, it's all just hot air, meant to incite riots and cause spontaneous combustion. Something that Kittens won't stoop to. I think it's time for this person's nap.

T.

[Lindy]

lmao RS, Oh my dear god, your post cracked me up, really, this is the silliest thing I have read in a while. And I have read a lot of silly things over the last months.

I'd say you follow xita's advice so that you can see that for yourself.

Oh, and xita, mmm, love your sig!! I bet you love it even more.

[BBOvenGuy]

Some people are really better off if they just leave comedy writing to the experts.

[relativegirl]

Life is too short to even bother with the likes of this. *[i:32299a4851] yawn[/i:32299a4851]* [i:32299a4851] relativegirl suddenly remembers hearing Ruth posted an update and happily skips off to find out if it's true[/i:32299a4851]

edited to add: Somehow I missed Xita's new sig. I love it! Ooooh Xita, like Ooooh Cookies!

[Sheridan]

Indeed [b:18797d63f6] relativegirl[/b:18797d63f6], on that note I've figured out how to get a jacuzzi into a future 'Reality Check' story. It seems like ages since we've had any decent smut in one of these threads so I offer it up for speculation.

[Wiccagrrl313]

Oh please! . That's just... pathetic is the kindest word I can think of to use.

[Zahir al Daoud]

I just can't help myself.

Want to find straight couples who are together on tv? Easy! [i:5ed78f47f3]Friends[/i:5ed78f47f3] and [i:5ed78f47f3]Seventh Heaven[/i:5ed78f47f3] and [i:5ed78f47f3]Everybody Loves Raymond[/i:5ed78f47f3] and [i:5ed78f47f3]ER[/i:5ed78f47f3] and dozens more.

How about straight people who aren't evil, crazy or dead? That's even easier.

Now, find a lesbian on t.v. who isn't either (1) Alone, (2) Evil/Crazy, or (3) Dead.

I can think of two--Ross' ex and her lover on [i:5ed78f47f3]Friends[/i:5ed78f47f3]. That's it. Recurring (as in once every other season or so) minor characters. Two! And right now, American media is more gay positive than it has ever been before! Regardless of whether the Dark Willow storyline made any sense (a matter clearly for debate) the issue here is an artist's responsibility towards an audience who've been kicked in the teeth and routinely lied about. Yes, some lesbians are alone. Others go crazy or evil. And sooner or later they all die. But when that' is the sum total of how they are portrayed, what's happening is called bigotry. When people who know better fall into that habit, that's called irresponsible.

[Sheridan]

If Joss had just given Willow a boyfriend two years ago no one would have batted an eyelid. Instead he brought in Tara( and BTW I simply don't accept his assertion that he didn't plan to make her Willows girlfriend, just one look at Hush shows that up as lie) and built up the relationship, used the actresses talent and chemistry between them to hook us in. Now he doesn't get it when we're upset.

[Epicurus]

I've come to the conclusion that one can figure out how stupid and ignorant a post will be by just reading the foreword

[b:62997f5da7]I hope that the intelligent people on the kitten board will appreciate the irony and recoginze the post as a defence of the creators of the buffy show + friendly advice to you people[/b:62997f5da7]

My gosh, thats almost as bad as the posts that begin with the oh-so-original Im not a homophobe and I have gay friends but

[WebWarlock]

I am not going to even bother.

Ohh. It is from a Bronzer, that font of intelligence and hard hitting analysis. God you all remember the nearly Socratic discussions on "Spike is not a rpist 'cuz Buffy deserved it!". Reminded my of the discussions we used to have in grad school. It was like being in the same room with Socrates, Kant, and J.S. Mill. It was right up there with "Spike is soooo dreamy, I wish we get to see MORE of his abs this year."

Ok, that is enough shit-raking for one day.
Why am I not surprised that the Bronzer's don't get it.

Remeber guys there is a big difference between kneeling down and bending over.

Warlock

[Lindy]

Yeah, Epicurus, oh god how much this line bothers me everytime I hear it. But, you know, people who use it don't see what's wrong with it.. it's really sad actually.

[Wiccagrrl313]

Well, really, the "I'm not a bigot, honest. Some of my best friends are (fill in the blank)" line is nearly always a prelude to someone saying something offensive (or being defensive because they feel they either are bigotted or are being accused of being bigotted.)

[RealitySpeaks]

First of all thanks for all the friendly response with intelligent and constructive criticism, which did not at any point resolve to insults or name-calling. Some minority groups react very aggressively to outsiders, especially those expressing a dissenting opinion, but clearly people here are not in that category.

I will answer two posters that actually had something to say beyond complimenting me:

[Zahir al Daoud] While I understand and respect your argument that the lack of (happy) lesbian couples on TV means that killing Tara is irresponsible, I do not believe that it is right to demand that producers adhere with it. You might ask them to consider it but to demand as it is done at this board is really trying to limit or completely abolish the creative freedom of the producers. With thousands of minorities standing in line each with their special agenda the final result may be very responsible and political correct but dead in any literary/interesting sense.

[Sheridan] Joss did give willow a boyfriend a couple of years ago called and I 100% believe Joss when he stated that he would have killed Oz now instead of Tara if Oz was still around. That whomever Willow was with in season 6 was killed in order to advance the plot leading to DarkWillow should surprise no close watcher of the show. To very publicly claim that it is not courteous or respectful to kill her is just an attempt to hijack MEs creativity by claiming moral superiority. To say that is was not necessary to kill her may be correct but ultimately it is just one subjective viewpoint among thousand others. I do not agree that Joss does not understand when you are upset (in fact it is clear from several interviews that he himself was upset too), but I advice you to stop equalizing alternative thinking with disrespect.

[Kieli]

Hmmm..sounds very much like a Republican's POV to me. You know the one where everyone else should be held accountable for their actions except for those that act like they do? Not worth the effort.

And again, we reiterate, if you know your POV is not popular here, why come? Is it because you are bored and have nothing better to do or are you truly interested in real dialogue because, personally, you really don't sound like you want one. You just want to be allowed to come here and do the Internet version of "Nanner nanner nanner, get over it."

[WebWarlock]

Reality Speaks,

That is the problem.
You believe Joss. Until you stop doing that you can't see this from any type of logical or "realistic" point of view.

Joss is a liar.

Warlock