Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

[IvanovaDV]

Hi, [b:81554dfe35] Joss[/b:81554dfe35], yes. And as you already know since you've obviously read the FAQ and the postings in this thread very carefully, we also believe JW is planning to overtake the US government.

[Willowlicious]

You know, I think that poor 'ole Joss Whedon has got to be disappointed at the intellectual depth of those fighting his battles for him. Is this pathetic offering representative of all that remains in his band of followers? Team Whedon is looking a bit like the Axis at the end of WWII--scared children in ill-fitting uniforms without the skill or knowledge to put up a proper fight.

Interesting.

Amy

[JOSSISCOOL]

So everyone is suppose to respect your opinions but mine arent valid enough? Its pretty sad that people who claim to be so open minded, are so close minded to other people opinions. And i dont appreciate being made fun off or being called a troll. I never got on here throwing names at you all. So thats your defense? calling names and pokeing fun at me? And you talk about persecuting. I guess one fact is straight YOU ALL ARE hypocrites

Amy
do u enjoy makeing fun of people? does it help you feel better? You all are very mean. If there is any one when different opinions YOU ATTACK THEM

SAD SAD LITTLE hypocrites.

[xita]

You are the one doing the name calling. Your opinion is still here isn't it? But you are surprised people don't agree? Seriously, I will never understand that logic. There is no defense for what you said, because you said nothing.

yawn

oh and read the cliche FAQ and the kitten FAQ and stop double posting. If you have a point to make, make it, if you came to name call, you can leave now.

[Scoobiedoo]

Although I do dislike engaging with people who clearly have not read this faq or the board's faq, but presume to know what we, as a board stand for, may i give you some words of advice [b:143eaf36c8] Jossiscool [/b:143eaf36c8]:

1) Please use spell check.

2) Do not double post. Edit your original post.

3) It is probably ineffectual to accuse people of being name-callers if you then resort to calling them "SAD SAD LITTLE hypocrites".

4) I'm trying very hard to respect your opinion but at the moment you haven't expressed one, apart from being rather rude and claiming that we are arguing that "Buffy is part of some evil plan to detroy and persecute minorities and gays." If you would kindly read the faq you would see that this is never stated, the "evil plan" you talk of, is actually clearly argued against.

Have a good day.

[Willowlicious]

JossIsCool, I do not enjoy making fun of anyone and I did not make fun of you. I merely expressed that I found the strength of your argument lacking. If you remember, your original post essentially said--in an extremely vague, hasty manner--that you found our argument lacking. So it is okay for you to dismiss our researched, detailed, carefully laid out argument with a trite post that indicates that you haven't actually taken the time to read our argument, but I cannot dismiss your short, lazy, trite post? Who is the hypocrite? Hint: It isn't me.

Read the FAQ. Read the entire thread. Then post something that suggests you've given thought to your post. Invest in your arguments. We have.

Until then, you are truly disadvantaged to your task.

Amy

[relativegirl]

Hmmm, I read your posts several times jossiscool but for the life of me I can't seem to find any opinion expressed by you except that we are hypocrites and the basis of that opinion seems to be that we didn't respect your previously expressed, but thusfar missing-in-action, "opinion."

Sometimes it's helpful to actually formulate an opinion before trying to express it.

[friskylez]

JOSSISnotCOOL, You are so out of your league with these kittens
Id quit before you have to run back to whatever board you came from with your
tail between your legs...And trust me these lovely folks here on the kitten board are so NOT hypocrites, just read some of the posts okie dokie

[Arafel the Witch]

A troll! A troll! A troll!! Fun fun fun for the whole kitten family. Hey, Jossiscool, take it to the Bronze, where kitten-types are the minority and Joss is god types are the majority. You'll probably be praised out the wazoo.

[Magrat70]

To use a quote that has been over used recently "Bored now".

I'm still at a loss why these people come here and then get upset when we tell them how we feel. For goodness sake the FAQs are there for a reason please read them and can I point out this board is paid for by Xita. If you don't like her and the mods views I suggest you FUCK OFF.

I apologize to all sensitive kittens for my language. I have no apology for drive by trolls.

[supermus]

Saying you're a troll is not name-calling. You ARE a troll. You come here dismissing the opinions that are the core of this board and insult us. I believe that is EXACTLY what a troll is. And no one EVER said that Joss and Co. are conspiring to persecute minorities. We merely said that their actions were socially irresponsible, and adhering to a cliche they admitted to being aware of BEFORE the fact, and they said they were staying away from. So go back to whatever little board you came from(or the board from whence you came, whatever)

[hilarita]

having a dissenting opinion is not going to get you laughed off the board. most kittens, myself included, love a good opportunity to have a good discussion and make our point, and if your opinion has any thought behind it, people will consider it and respond. however if you are clearly not trying to engage in conversation, how do you expect us to talk to you? how, ideally, would you like us to respond to your statements? because i dont even know what youre saying, especially when you accuse us of believing in things that we clearly dont believe in.

if you want a discussion, the kittens will discuss. if you want to make fun of us, find something better to do.

[Sheridan]

There do seem to be a lot of people who come in her and say in effect:

[b:5128ca4047] "You're completely wrong, so stop saying bad things about Joss/Marti/Buffy."[/b:5128ca4047]

I'm prepared to answer an argument, I'm not prepared to be told to shut up.

[Junior3]

Hi,
this is not my very first post here,but I'm basically a lurker.This is one of the best Buffy related boards on the web(and very useful-I got the links to the download sites through this board !).
I did'nt visit for a couple of months 'cause I didn't want to get spoiled as I was waiting for season 6 tapes from eastlant.I watched the season finale a couple of days ago and I knew that getting back to the kitten board I would have found quite a sad and angry bunch of people.

I went trough many posts and I found this FAQ topic very well done and really on point.
I was aware of the cliche before and I thought the writers really got into one while watching the episodes,but have it explained it so well really helped me(and others like me who are not really into the gay-lesbian world)understand why you (meaning the core group of this board)are so angry.

I basically agree on every point,but can I say I'm not completly sure about one thing?
somewere(please don't ask me where!)it's stated that "intentions don't matter,results do".
That can be true in many cases,but in judging someone's work(in this case Josh Whedon's)or someone's behaviour or actions for that matter I think intentions are important.
If ME had done that on purpose to cause damage to the GL comunity(and I think that's not the case),it would have been a lot worse.Maybe this was a bad case of misjudgement by Josh and ME or they could not really come up with something better than this and it slipped out of hand...I don't know...what I'm trying to say is that you can't compare a premeditaded coldblooded murder to an incidental death:the result is the same,but the moral responsability quite different.

Anyway,I will miss Tara so much,she was such a special character and Amber is a special acterss and woman.

take care and ciao from Italy

R.


PS:please forgive me if my english is not that good,i hope I've made my point clear enough,but I know this would have come out better if written in Italian...

[The Destroyer]

Hi, first post here. I've read the FAQ, and found it very thought provoking, even if I dont agree with all of it.
Just a few points to make:
1) In response to RealitySpeaks - since when did political correctness become the bogeyman of the western world. Maybe at times its reach has perhaps gone a bit too far (like any idea or opinion can), but at its heart is something good. Why is it so bad to not want to offend homosexuals? just a small point. However, and this ties in with both points, while creative freedom is a great thing, there are lines that shouldnt be crossed - and there are such things - certainly in my country we have censorship (so often used against gays), so why cant it be used for good?

2) and in response to Junior3, I agree. Intentions are more important than results. I think its possible for anyone to take what they want from a TV show, whether its unintended or not. Once you put it out there, the creator loses control to a certain extent. I will never believe that ME sent out any such message on purpose. but they are intelligent people, and as such hold some responsibilty for what they show in screen.
For a show built on metaphor, you would at least expect them to think of all the angles.

thanks for listening

[friskylez]

Junior, I think the line you quoted and i might be wrong, was in the context of Joss intent as far as putting Tara as Willows love interest...He may not have intended to keep Tara around as long as he did, but W/T took on a life of their own because of the chemistry between the two actress'...When Joss realized this, the he kept Tara around so when he killed her, it would have more effect..The result of putting them together was to further a storyline that he had decided on a long time ago...DMW..

[Sela]

I certainly think intentions are important, but really, what good are intentions if they end up hurting people? What is it they say, "the road to hell was paved by good intentions." Yeah, so while I don't think Joss & Co. set out to send homophobic messages or to destroy people's hopes, the fact is, they did. Now, we can sit here and say, "Yeah, but they didn't MEAN to do it and they didn't MEAN to hurt their lesbian fan base," but they did. Furthermore, people with bad intentions are just bad people. They hate for no good reason and they act that hatred out for no good reason. It doesn't hurt so much because I know that they're just bad people. It's the ones that send out messages of hope and end up stomping all over it that hurts me the most. JMHO.

--Sela

[Wiccagrrl313]

First off, welcome to The Destroyer and Junior3. Good posts, glad to have you join the discussion.

Now, as to the question of intent, here's my take on it. Yeah, intents do matter to an extent. It would be worse to think that ME did this intending to send an anti-gay message. I don't believe that, but I am still upset with what happened, and how it was handled. And I do hold ME responsible for the message the story sent and the way they treated the fans and characters. There doesn't need to be intentional homophobia on ME's part for them to have sent a painful and disturbing message. And the lying to the fans? They false assurances? Trying to make this plot twist as devastating to W/T fans as possible? That *was* intentional.

Junior3, you talk about the difference between murder and an accidental death. But if someone's actions cause the death of another human being, even if it isn't intentional, we still can and do hold that person responsible. Involuntary manslaughter, voluntary manslaughter, second degree murder- actions don't have to necessarilly be well-thought out for us to say "You caused real damage here, and there are consequences for that"

I agree with The Destroyer that ME are intelligent writers, ones who built a show on metaphor and on subverting the cliche. Perhaps they didn't realize how this would come across, I dunno. But I do think, based on things they've said and done in the past, that they *should* have been able to. What hurts most is that I expected more of them.

[Junior3]

Sela:I'm afraid i can't say that bad actions by stupid ,ignorant or simply bad people don't hurt.you've got to be pretty strong to ignore them and let it pass by...but you've got a point there,as the destroyer said ME is a group of intelligent writers and they should have thought better.

Wiccagrrl:of course you're held responsable if you cause the death of a person with your wrongdoing.If you cause a car accident by going too fast(don't let me think of all the times I run my byke at 100mph where i should go 40!)you're held responsable,but you're not given a life sentence as if you shoot someone to rob him and you don't get the same moral judjment from other people.
I'm not saying that Joss Whedon didn't do something wrong,he did,but still I think he did not consider every aspect of what he did and he did not do it to hurt any of us.

about the lies that ME writers told...I don't know,if they were doing it only to prevent spoilers I think they went to far...I'm a little confused about that...

[relativegirl]

Hello to Junior and the Destroyer. Here is the quote from the FAQ that I believe you are both referring to regarding intentions vs. results: [quote:2241ace0c1][b:2241ace0c1][i:2241ace0c1]Quote:[/i:2241ace0c1][/b:2241ace0c1]

---

Did ME kill Tara because she was gay? No. But intentions don't matter, results do. The sad fact is that most lesbian couples meet horrible ends in films and television and Willow and Tara met a horrible end, too. They were the FIRST and ONLY long-term lesbian couple on network television and now they are horribly lost. There is no other couple to replace them. ME killed the unicorn for a cheap plot device they swore they were above.

---

[/quote:2241ace0c1]
While I agree that intent is important when weighing someone's moral culpability, it is equally important to consider the damage caused by that person's actions. In the American legal system, the defendant's intent AND the damages caused by that defendant are both considered when determing guilt or liability. For example, if I intend to kill another person but fail to either kill them or even harm them, I will not be punished as severely as if I kill someone unintentionally through my reckless behaviour. Both intent and consequences have to be considered to obtain a fully informed picture.

Here, regardless of Joss' intent, Joss and ME destroyed the only long-term lesbian couple on American network tv. Kyraroc and Willowlicious' comparison of Willow and Tara to a unicorn is therefore quite apt. Even if Joss had the best of intentions, the fact remains that I cannot simply change the channel and settle in to watch another lesbian couple on another show. I am confident that Joss was well aware of how unique Willow and Tara were as he was more than willing to accept all the accolades heaped upon him by gay and lesbian organizations for creating such a unique couple on network tv.

If somehow fortune were to entrust me with the last two giant pandas on earth or the only remaining test-tube of the small pox vaccine or the Mona Lisa, I hope that I would recognize that I was responsible for something both precious and uniquely rare and govern myself accordingly. Joss did not.

Granted, unlike my analogies, Joss created Willow and Tara and I agree that he has the right to do whatever he wants to with those characters. I just wish that he had been enough of a man, and enough of an artist, to recognize that what he initially created became something far greater than the words he originally wrote. AH and AB brought the characters to life and imbued the relationship with subtlety and nuance that never appeared in the shooting scripts. The audience, especially those of us who saw in Willow and Tara a part of ourselves reflected back at us, embraced the characters and let them into our hearts. We found significance and meaning in their actions and words even if none was intended. Whether we meant to or not, we made Willow and Tara icons and we demonstrated a loyalty to Joss and his show that was consistent with the iconic significance of W/T to our lives.

My point is that Joss had the opportunity to be more than the mere originator and author of the characters. He could have acknowledged the collaboration that resulted in W/T -- the value added to his words by the actors and the other writers and directors and the value added to the characters by us the audience. Joss could have risen to the occasion. He could have accepted the mantle of a steward of something unique and wonderful. Joss didn't.

And Joss lied.

As it turns out, we now know that Joss lied all along because the only reason he developed Tara into Willow's lover was to set up his "money shot" of having Tara's blood splattered all over Willow's face. So no, I don't believe Joss intended to say that lesbian sex is wrong and punishable by death (although that was the message that many took away from Seeing Red). We also know that Joss intentionally created the only long-term lesbian relationship just so that he could destroy it. And that tells me more about Joss Whedon than I ever care to know.

[The Destroyer]

Hi relativegirl. I understand and agree with what you say, although I have one question.
While I could be wrong here (and am quite prepared to be), but I thought that the decision to kill Tara off was made in early season five.
I also heard that the W/T relationship wasnt planned, even when Tara was introduced. It was only the chemistry between the pair that led ME to start a relationship between them.
While they did plan to have some alternate sexualities on the show, it could have been Xander (well, so they say. Dont see it myself).
So if that was the case, the lesbian relationship wasnt started in order for it to be destroyed. It was just an unfortunate fact that ending up in a reationship with Willow was the Tara's downfall. Hope this makes some kind of sense.Like I said I could be wrong, and it really makes little difference to the overall argument.

[Wiccagrrl313]

The Destroyer,

Yeah, in the big picture it isn't a huge deal, but it does make it more frustrating if the relationship was introduced just to end this way.

The question of when Joss knew this is muddy at best. Amber, at the recent con, originally said *she* knew for about two years, which would have put it summer of 2000. She later revised that to say it was around the middle of season 5. (I'm not sure if she meant when *they* were filming season five or when we actually saw S5. I think when they were filming it, though.) In any event fairly early on in the relationship, and this was when *she* was told. Joss obviously knew earlier. How much earlier is anyone's guess. In any event, his knowledge of how this would end clearly predates many of the quotes he gave about how important the relationship and Tara/Amber were, and how he had no plans to send her anywhere.

[xita]

The Destroyer, the lesbian relationship was started to be destroyed. Tara was always meant to die... it was supposed to be subtextual and never meant to have a happy ending as it would only last a few episode. The worst part is once it was decided that they would go with it and that Amber Benson would stay past season 4, it was only so that they could kill her and in turn destroy the relationship. Tara never had a chance, they never had one intention of letting her live. So in a very real sense the relationship was only allowed to have that three dimensional feel we praise it for because it was going to be destroyed.

The worst thing is that given Doug Petrie's quotes from early season 4, they knew that gay people always died and were made to suffer. But they thought well because we won't be yelling, "die dyke, die" that it won't be because she's gay. Gay people can't be upset then. It's much worse to me because they encouraged our attachment, they encouraged the praise, they were aware that it was a problem, and still wen't ahead and did it. They pretended it was safe for us to believe that maybe this time we could have a happy ending (and I don't necessarily mean happily forever after, just something fair , not tragic). We've all been burned, we know what the media is like, naturally we don't trust. But they forced us to trust, forced to believe Tara had a chance. Intentions were to trick us... I don't appreciate it.

Joss Whedon may have believed he was busting a cliche by actually doing it and going through with it without it being about Tara being gay that he was going to be hailed as a champion. But there was no busting of a cliche , just more reinforcement that Gay people live sad lives, doomed lives. Unlike the cliche of bringing in a little sister out of nowhere in a late season, this one hurts cause people do die because of this, it doesn't make anyone's lives any easier.

[The Destroyer]

Thanks for putting me right. As I said, I didnt know the full ins and outs, so was prepared to be wrong.
And putting it that way, I can understand why so many people are upset.
It undermines the concept of a healthy gay relationship (indeed healthy gay person) if it was never intended to succeed.

[Lindy]

In the end it wouldn't be all that bad if the way Joss decided to promote the relationship wasn't the way he did.

He needed someone to be Willow's lover and he needed somone who helped Willow with her magics. He introduced Tara in Hush as the latter but when he saw the chemistry Aly and Amber had decided to make Tara also Willow's lover. With the mere purpose of being killed in the end, to get us the oh so cool DMW, to push Willow over the edge.

Well, ok, I see that this was his vision and I can accept that. I also see that it was clear that he needed the fans to believe Tara would stick around and I understand that it might have been clever to use the clich as an anti-clich kinda thing.

It would still have been a bad thing, but I could have understood, you know.

What gets me is that Joss, Doug.. hell, everybody knew about the impact Willow and Tara had. It was obvious to them. And they knew that young gays in the USA and all around the world cherished this relationship and took comfort in it. People were able to see themselves as who they are, not as bad or wrong or perverted.

Others, like many of the Kittens thought they had finally someone who understood their need to be represented in a cult TV show, shown all around the world. True gay love, something you don't normally see on TV.

And everybody was told by ME that the viewers were emotionally save, that the writers are hyper aware of the importance of the W/T realtionship.

And for what? To realize it was all a lie.

How does that make us feel? Well, devestaded of course. And again society spits in our face and laughs at us, sweeps the rug away under our feet. So, we see again that if you are gay you can't trust, you won't find a save corner somewhere to be just who you are and be happy. Well, I really doubt Joss and ME wanted to hurt only the gay fans of the show. That wasn't their mere intent, they are clearly no homophobes. But they did it nonetheless. Maybe just by accident. But if you say you are hyper aware of what's going on and keep insisting you just had to do it.. well.. please!

It would have been a class act to let your vision become the less important thing after you realized what you created. It shouldn't be all that difficult, in the end Joss know that interaction between fans and the makers of a show is important in our multimedia society. Feedback as a mean of making your art better. Joss failed. And he knows it.

[Sheridan]

Joss cerrtainly seems to have been planning this for a long time so that would seem to make him pretty culpable, especially as he and other ME staff made comments which stated that Tara wasn't going anywhere and the way they took the plaudits for avoiding the lesbian cliche. It's been said before but:

Tara's death [b:3ebc2efea0] upset[/b:3ebc2efea0] us. The way it was handled was what made us [b:3ebc2efea0] angry[/b:3ebc2efea0].

[Junior3]

[quote:859ecedd17][b:859ecedd17][i:859ecedd17]Quote:[/i:859ecedd17][/b:859ecedd17]

---

"
Joss Whedon may have believed he was busting a cliche by actually doing it and going through with it without it being about Tara being gay that he was going to be hailed as a champion. But there was no busting of a cliche , just more reinforcement that Gay people live sad lives, doomed lives. Unlike the cliche of bringing in a little sister out of nowhere in a late season, this one hurts cause people do die because of this, it doesn't make anyone's lives any easier.

---

[/quote:859ecedd17]

I think Xita might be right about this.Probably JW tried to outsmart everyone trying to bust a cliche by perpetuating it..if this makes any sense...

I read somewhere that Joss said that Dark Willow rocked and he got loud applause.I really don't think he deserved it.Dark willow was totally out of character to me.watching the episodes me and my brother were"c'mon,that's too much"all the time.it really didn't seem right,especially when she tried to hurt her friends.And if a character that's so established like Willow takes all of a sudden such a different path,it lacks credibility.
It's a little difficult for me to say it,cause I think JW is the best TV writer I know about(I love Angel so much),but in this case he did a poor job.

J.R.

[The Destroyer]

I actually think that the DMW was a long time coming. there were hints for a few years. So I dont think it came out of nowhere.
Having said that I think we saw the wrong DMW. The addiction thing didnt make sense to me - all the signs were pointing to a Willow who slipped into using magic, using it for the wrong reasons and getting carried away by the power or whatever.
If theyd taken that route, then Tara neednt have died. But it would have been harder to get Willow back from that, and its typical of the inconsitencies of season six.

[Dave V]

Hello, Junior3. I understand your point about Dark Magic Willow. I was talking about the end of the season with a friend of mine. Christine's a Spuffy shipper, but even she thought ME had gone too far with Willow. She wondered how a character taken so far could ever get back. When the non- Willow/Tara fans think it's bad, you realize how low ME has sunk.

[Sheridan]

[b:be38e11a7a] Destroyer[/b:be38e11a7a] you're not alone in that view. The season started with a 'power corrupts' plotline and then suddenly in 'Wrecked' it became 'Just say no'. Clear signs of a lack of direction at the top.