You want me to read what MKF?? Wednesdy 1/15/03

[tommo]

Dickens. Gah. I can't remember the amount of times I had to teach A Christmas Carol in school to 11 year old children who really don't want to appreciate the "rich narrative and wickedly amusing characterisation". I mean, honestly, it's no wonder I friggin' hate Christmas.

Bah. Humbug. My arse.

[Still Waters Run Deep]

Ruth:

[quote:36385e44bf]Quote:

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My arse

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What about your arse? are we now opening a debate on the merit of Ruth's arse in the literary sense.

Eek: I just had the disquieting vision of Ruth, a'la Tara, lying naked face down with sappic inscripions in the Greek being applied to her bum.

Do I need counselling?

[The Shadowcat]

Yes.

[Kalita]

The best thing about LotR is how it improves with every reading. There is so much incredible depth in there that you can't possibly soak it all in during one reading; new bits surface each time you go over it.

You also gain new appreciation of some of it when you've read The Hobbit, or The Silmarillion, or anything else from the extended Tolkien ouevre; and yet, it still stands fine on its own, too.

And, don't anybody knock the appendices; there is much dry history there, but if you tackle it a bit at a time there's lots to discover.

[urnofosiris]

I just started rereading The Fellowship of the Ring, it has almost been 10 years since my last reading I think. I now notice the changes that were made in the movie, this is exactly why I don't like reading a book and watching a movie about it too closely together, it distracts me and I usually don't like the changes made in movies (though there are exceptions and I think the LoTR movie probably improved on certain aspects and parts of the written story).

Anyway, what surprised me, and what I did not remember is that the prologue of the Fellowship basically spoils the ending. I mean I know how it ends of course, I am not that forgetful yet, but if you truly have no idea what the book is about and want to be unspoiled then reading the prologue isn't a good idea, because it very clearly gives away which characters survive and the fact that they did also gives away how the story ends.

Edit: The prologue is written as if that the entire book is a written account of real historic events. I like that, but I'd rather it had been part of the epilogue or written in a way that does not spoil too much. And yes, this is coming from a former spoiler whore who is not a professor of Anglo-Saxon or anything else for that matter, which does not stop me from knowing everything better than anyone else.

[tommo]

Well, I don't know what I'm talking about here (clearly, ahem) but my brother is very much an avid reader of the Tolkein novels. He said that what Tolkein was attempting to do was to create a specifically English mythology, given that most of our English heritage is "bastardised" by other cultures. It's really a tribute to his patriotism, I suppose, in that it reads like a historical factual novel rather than fiction. I know that when I get the time and the motivation, I'm looking forward to giving it the attention that is necessary to enjoy it. Hopefully I will start reading it sometime before the third movie is released.

Some hope, eh?

ETA: G, the historical aspect is what I suppose I'm interested in. Did it detract from the "fictional" aspect or did it enhance the overall understanding? My brother, I think, likes the novels precisely because of that history Tolkein creates, whereas I have a friend who found all the extraneous details too confusing and distracting.

[urnofosiris]

Well that is subjective of course. For me it did not detract from the story and characters. Quite the contrary. There is much detail in the LoTR that is lost on the reader (or at least on me) the first time around or if you have not read the Hobbit or the Silmarillion. To take it all in you really have to read these works more than once or even twice. That is easy to do though if this is the kind of story or style that you like, and I do like it. Eventhough there are many details I don't feel that it is overdone like it is in a series like The Wheel of Power in which I have gotten totally lost after part 7 in the million characters that have been introduced especially in the subsequent parts. Too much detail can work counterproductive, but that isn't the case in Tolkien's work, at least not for me.

The detail and the complete history he has provided for the LoTR helps me forget that it is a fantasy story and that the things that happen could never happen or have never happened in our world. Another thing that helps me forget the fantasy and make me believe in the reality instead is that the story is consistent. If there are continuity errors I have not noticed them. I also like it that he does not explain the fantasy or magical elements. He does not have to, when I read it I am not tempted to question how a ring can make someone invisible.

I just accept it. I can accept quite a lot of fantasy before I feel like . I can't get into a story if I notice glaring errors or if they try to explain the fantastical as if it is science and not science fiction. That is a part of Star Trek that I don't like, all the silly tech talk that is meant to lend a sense of reality to the fiction when all it succeeds in doing is giving me a headache or making me hurt my eyes by rolling them around in my head too much.

And now I shall stop talking before I give someone else a headache or painful eyes.

[themagicpixie]

Let me just raise the level of conversation here:

I kinda like LoTR, but I've read that damn long book twice through now, and you know something - this is true, I've checked carefully:

There aren't any lesbians in it.

There aren't even any female characters that might feasibly be gay. I was hoping for Arwen, but damn that Strider footnote and subtext. Nor are there any two female characters I can pretend are getting it on with each other. I mean, the guys, sure. Tonnes of homoerotica. Sam will never leave Mr. Frodo, and all that. I bet Frodo gets off on Sam calling him "Mr."

But where are the lesbians?

It's what I ask myself when reading any work of fiction. Nice story, but where's the Sapphic subplot? Where's the minor character who could just possibly bat for the other side? (or rather, I guess, the same side... as me... or something...) Where are the references to two female characters disappearing off with each other to ostensibly, I don't know, research demons, or practice spells - allowing the reader who is left behind in the boring scene with the main guys to speculate on what's happening with those girls?

Damn... is it just me?

[darkmagicwillow]

DrG, you've said it very well so I'll just add a short confirmation. The historical details are what make LotR feel so real, but they don't get in the way of enjoying it, and they make subsequent readings much more pleasurable as you fall deeper into the story each time.

pixie, there just aren't that many women characters. There's Arwen and Galadriel in the first book, and Eowyn in the second and third books. I'm not sure if any of them even meet outside the appendices, and Galadriel is Arwen's grandmother anyway. I know, it's hard to tell with immortals.

Is it time to write a Willow and Tara in Middle Earth fanfic? I actually had an idea for starting one, with Tara's "demon" blood being elven so that she is drawn back to the world of her foremothers. It's not something I'm likely to ever write so have at it if you're interested.

[urnofosiris]

(Edit: heh you beat me to it darkmagicwillow ) LoTR only has 3 main female characters that get too little page time. Too few and no room for subtext let alone maintext. A bummer and unchangeable seeing as the good professor has departed from this world quite a while ago. Can't win em all. I don't like Frodo btw. I never did, and I like him less everytime I read the book. Sam is the real hero of the story in my eyes, it would have been so very nice if Frodo would have asked Sam to stop calling him Mr Frodo at least *once*. Bleh.

Has anyone here read The Wheel of Time? Now *that* is a story that is screaming for lesbian main characters. Hundreds of strong female characters always together and only one mention of two very minor characters being "pillow pals". That puzzled me even before I began paying attention to the lack of lesbian characters on tv or in books. As for TV, Star Trek is the biggest should have would have could have show in my opinion, which as usual isn't humble. Too few female characters, all the shows only had 2 or 3 female regular cast members as opposed to 5 or 6 men, and again no gay people in the Star Trek universe, unless it is the evil alternate universe or an alien gender changing symbiont carrying character and then only for one episode and no happy ending. Bleh, and I still really like ST DS9.

[darkmagicwillow]

Robert Jordan is an author who for me would fit under the rubric of this thread. I haven't read him, and anyway he probably won't ever finish that 10 book monstrosity for me to read in the first place. I have issues with trilogies, and decalogies are just too much.

DrG, I have to agree, Sam is the hero for me too. And Frodo should have asked him not to call him "Mr." Damn early 20th century English classism.

I also wanted to chime in and agree with you about the Star Trek technobabble. It's so painfully inaccurate. On the last episode I watched of Enterprise, Trip said they were 90 million kilometers from a solar system. The Earth is closer than that to the Sun. The outer planets and comets are billions of kilometers out. If you're that close, you're already in the system.

[urnofosiris]

Someone recommended the Wheel of Time by Robert Jordan to me but I have forgotten who it was. I really did enjoy the first 7 parts, there are many strong female characters and they had a snarky sense of humour at times that I like, and eventhough there are many details and characters, there wasn't the overkill that started in part 8. The story slowed down and grinded to a shrieking halt and the absence of lesbian characters really is glaring and I am not just saying that because I have been turned to the dark side by the evil lesbians on this board.[img:078ab7eb6b]http://64.207.13.28/mysmilies/otn/funny/kaboom.gif[/img:078ab7eb6b]
I noticed that even before I had ever heard of WT and/or lesbian cliches. I simply cannot can get into it now and I fear I will have to start all over again if I am ever going to, but I won't do that until I know the last part has been published. So I won't be recommending it to anyone again any time soon.
Some series should quit while they are ahead.

Star Trek is filled with inaccuracies as is that show, and I am sure I notice even less than half the booboos that they make because I am not an engineer or a wiccan. It can also be annoying when they make such simple mistakes as continuity errors. I mean if I can see them how in the world can the people who make a show and who shower us in details that suggest they know of which they speak not see them? All these things interfere with the believability of a story for me. Tolkien knew what he was doing, he was a scholar of the English language, he had the know how (and the talent and imagination that does not come from books) to create the languages and history of Middle Earth. That's why it worked for him I think. He wasn't trying to explain warpdrive or wicca, or more on topic, he wasn't explaining things he knew as much about as his average reader, like how rings might make you invisible or how Elves heal the sick. Mwah, I'm not sure I am making sense now, hum, that's a first.

I don't mind series, whether in books or on tv, when something is good I want it to go on as long as possible, but the art of knowing when to end it or quit obviously isn't something all writers have mastered. Which reminds me, I think I better stop now. [img:078ab7eb6b]http://www.jamezbrown.com/mysmilies/ups/mtk/badteeth.gif[/img:078ab7eb6b]

[Kalita]

True, there is an utterly sad lack of them. We do get...






****ROTK SPOILER****




...a woman in drag....




****END SPOILER****

...but not much else.

There are even very few minor female characters; various hobbit wives in the beginning and end, but few lines; essentially nobody but Galadriel and Eowyn all throught the middle; and some folks in Minas Tirith towards the end.

The Silmarillion, however, has some promising characters; look for a gal named Haleth in Chapter 17, "Of the Coming of Men into the West". She's got the right stuff, methinks...