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Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

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Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby emma peel » Tue Jul 30, 2002 10:36 am

I just wanted to thank the Kittens who are doing such a good job (IMO) in rebutting RealitySpeaks arguments.

I'm sorry RS, I'm not very good at expressing myself, but I'm havig a great deal of difficulty following your arguments. They don't make any sense to me.

Why do you keep coming here? I should think by now you would realize you are not going to change anyone's mind on this board, nor is anyone going to change yours.

What's the point?

Janice
emma peel
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby Sheridan » Tue Jul 30, 2002 10:39 am

Does he imagine that we could somehow cause the show to get taken off the air? Well firstly that's beyond our power, and secondly I wouldn't want to do it, I wouldn't want Joss to have outs or excuses. If the show were to get pulled I would want it to be because of tired plots and bad writing, of which there was strong evidence in S6. I have a brother and sister who were strictly lukewarm about W/T, slightly ironic as my brother is gay, and yet neither of them was enthralled by the end of S6. Was there some powerful acting? Absolutely. Was there a well thought out plot that made sense? Well pretty much no. I think we have been more than generous with RS, but it's clear his argument isn't going to move beyond [b:a12f722635] "You're wrong, shut up."[/b:a12f722635]. I'm loathe to offer him the satisfaction but perhaps it's time he was removed?

Edited to add:
I think it's justified on the basis that RS has made it clear that because they, and maybe the majority of Buffy fans, disagree with our viewpoint then we have no right to either express or indeed hold that viewpoint. If he rejects our right to free speech why should he be permitted to use the Kitten board as a platform for his facism?
Sheridan
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby DigificWriter » Tue Jul 30, 2002 10:54 am

Those of you who have been over at the WD board know who I am, and are probably worried about my reasons for posting here. I'm not going to get into a shouting match with you guys. I am sympathetic to your feelings (even though it might not have seemed like it to Ben and the other Kittens who were posting in the WD forum over at buffyguide.com) and even consider myself to be a W/T shipper and fan. However, I would like to give you a balancing viewpoint on all of this. While I do sympathise with your feelings, I, and several others, feel that your current efforts to spread the word about your cause could end up having a disastrous impact and/or effect on "Buffy" and other shows made and/or marketed by Fox, ME, and Joss and Co, regardless of whether or not that was your original intent. I've calmed down enough to give you guys the benefit of the doubt right now concerning your claims that you are not actively trying to get "Buffy" and other ME/Joss Whedon shows cancelled, but I do want you to know that I sincerely hope that your efforts, noble as they might be at the moment, DO NOT end up having a negative effect on this show and those who watch it.

Thank you.
DigificWriter
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby AutumnT » Tue Jul 30, 2002 10:57 am

[quote:580a97919c][b:580a97919c][i:580a97919c]Quote:[/i:580a97919c][/b:580a97919c]
am not a native speaker
[/quote:580a97919c] And yet you claim to understand ME's intentions better than we do and claim to grasp exactly SDK's intent. But you didn't understand why a word choice like crazy would be insulting. Do us all a favor and git. It's pretty obvious to me why you would choose to defend liars at this point.

Edited to add. [b:580a97919c] DigificWriter[/b:580a97919c], I find it really funny that people seem to be worried about [b:580a97919c] our[/b:580a97919c] effect on shows by Joss Whedon. Joss and company are perfectly capable of getting their shows canceled without making this into some big kitten conspiracy. In fact Joss did a great job of turning many viewers off with his season 6 vision all by himself. Also, amazingly enough none of us here helped him waste 10 million dollars on a [i:580a97919c] FireFly[/i:580a97919c] pilot so bad he had to make a new one to avoid cancellation before an episode was shown. Again, all by himself. Thanks for the vote of confidence about our power though!
AutumnT
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby Sheridan » Tue Jul 30, 2002 11:02 am

So you're argument can be summarised as [b:653101054c] Ok Joss may have mishandled the Tara situation, but please shut up because it may have a negative impact on the show?[/b:653101054c] Sorry but the only thing having a negative impact is poor writing and the fact that Joss is too busy with his new baby to give it proper attention. The only reason it would have a disastrous impact would if we persauded the majority of people we were right in our view, and I can't see that as a bad thing. We do not want Buffy off the air, we just want ME to stop making crass comments and concede they made a mistake, I would love Tara back but that's [b:653101054c] not[/b:653101054c] what we're asking, we just want somone to acknowledge the importance of the portayal of W/T and concede there was a mistake made.
Sheridan
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby emma peel » Tue Jul 30, 2002 11:03 am

DigificWriter:
???????????????????????????????????????????????????
Aren't people enitiled to their own opinions?
I for one, seldom go to other Buffy boards because I find them full of misinformation about this board.I never post elsewhere.
I have no clue who you are or what "WD" is.
Janice
emma peel
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby AutumnT » Tue Jul 30, 2002 11:06 am

[i:a5621d3931] Autumn sits and waits patiently for the next driveby to stop in and this time accuse the kitten board of causing the greenhouse effect, mad cow disease, and spreading the West Nile virus through our conversations[/i:a5621d3931]
AutumnT
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby hilarita » Tue Jul 30, 2002 11:08 am

hello again, haha.
[quote:3a874bac52][b:3a874bac52][i:3a874bac52]Quote:[/i:3a874bac52][/b:3a874bac52]
While I do sympathise with your feelings, I, and several others, feel that your current efforts to spread the word about your cause could end up having a disastrous impact and/or effect on "Buffy" and other shows made and/or marketed by Fox, ME, and Joss and Co, regardless of whether or not that was your original intent.
[/quote:3a874bac52]
i dont see this happening, honestly. i dont think weve convinced anyone to stop watching that wasnt already leaning heavily in that direction. there were problems with season six that reach far beyond just pissing off the w/t shippers...all of the shippers got a crappy ending...the b/s community was split right down the middle and i imagine a lot of them arent watching...hell, i would have stopped watching based on the rape treatment alone...and the writing and plot just werent as coherent and intelligent as they used to be. for all the noise that we are making, the truth is it wont affect the outcome of the show or joss whedons career. i dont think we constitute enough of the fanbase to make a serious difference. if the numbers dive next year, it will be because a whole lot more of the fanbase went walking than the kittens and the people who listened to them.

edited to add: autumn...i hate to admit it...but i am responsible for spreading mad cow disease. i figured out a way to convert the disease into a computer virus so that everyone who reads a single sentence of mine gets it.

what can i say, i like crazy people.
hilarita
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby Sheridan » Tue Jul 30, 2002 11:13 am

Suddenly I feel like we have been selected as the patsy should S7 fall flat on it's face. If the show folds or crashes in the ratings, if Firelfy dies a death, if Angel gets pulled, it won't be bad writing or storylines that the general viewers don't like, oh no. IT will be all those crazy Kittens fault, and the other boards can go on worshipping the great JW.
Sheridan
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby DigificWriter » Tue Jul 30, 2002 11:24 am

[b:e7b6b2901a] emma peel[/b:e7b6b2901a], the WD board refers to the Watcher's Diary forum over at the buffyguide.com forums, which you mentioned in one of your above posts. As for who I am, my opening statements were directed towards Ben, hilarita, and others who have been over to the buffyguide.com forums and do know who I am.

[b:e7b6b2901a] hilarita[/b:e7b6b2901a], while you can't see it happening, I, and others, can, and that's what we're worried about. I think we have a right to be worried, just as you have a right to spread awareness about your cause and your feelings regarding this whole situation.

[b:e7b6b2901a] Sheridan[/b:e7b6b2901a], I had no intentions of insinuating that the Kitten board would be/is going to be blamed for the death of Buffy and other ME shows should they be cancelled on their own. I was simply pointing out that a lot of people feel that your actions, noble or not, could end up having ramifications that you can't foresee and/or didn't intend.

[b:e7b6b2901a] AutumnT[/b:e7b6b2901a], read what I've said to hilarita. While the fears of myself and others concerning what the Kitten board's actions could mean for the future of shows that we like may be irrational, irrational fear is a part of life. I sincerely hope that I haven't made any of you mad; I'm just trying to do what you've been doing, and that is get the viewpoints of myself and others heard while being sympathetic to your viewpoints.
DigificWriter
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby Dave V » Tue Jul 30, 2002 11:28 am

Buffy's ratings slide started long before season's end, and cannot be attributed to just W/T fans leaving the show. I suggest that problems with the story arc are evident beyond just the Willow and Tara plotline. However, it is the treatment of those two characters that are, to me, the most egregious examples of ME's attitude towards the GLTB community in particular, and fans of Buffy in general.

By our raising awareness of the issues involved, I would hope not only that people are able to make a more fully informed decision about their viewing habits, but that ME get an understanding of why viewers might be upset.

Whether to watch or not is up to the individual. Indeed, the Kittens themselves are divided on this point - many won't be watching, many still want to see what will happen to the characters they love.

If Buffy, Angel, or Firefly is cancelled, I submit that ME can only look to themselves for the blame.
Dave V
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby BBOvenGuy » Tue Jul 30, 2002 11:28 am

I doubt that Joss himself would place the blame on us if his shows tanked this coming season. He would never admit that rabble like us could bring him down.

Other fans are a different story. It's easier to point their fingers at us than it is to admit that what we're saying has some truth to it. If fact, I think they already know we're at least partially right, and that's why they keep coming over here and telling us to shut up.

[i:b9f6bfdd6b] * The Emperor has no clothes! The Emperor has no clothes! *[/i:b9f6bfdd6b]
BBOvenGuy
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby Epicurus » Tue Jul 30, 2002 11:29 am

As long as this board stays the community that it has become I say let them blame them us if season 7 tanks. Let our opinions have a negative effect on BTVS and/or Joss.
I couldn't care less what those people think.

Anyone that can't admit that Joss has made mistakes can stay as ignorant and happy as they want.
Epicurus
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby hilarita » Tue Jul 30, 2002 11:31 am

its always possible, via chaos theory, that something we do could cause joss whedons career to go down in a giant flaming ball of smoke, but even if it were, i dont know what we would be able to do about it. im pretty sure youre not actually suggesting that we shut up, because you say we have the right to state our opinions, and so other than that i dont know what you want us to do.

i guess i could stop spreading mad cow disease through the computers...but its too late for all of you. :evil
hilarita
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby BostonWillowFan » Tue Jul 30, 2002 11:32 am

DigificWriter,

I think you've touched on a point that bears further discussion. You and others are concerned that the work of the kittens may have an effect, perhaps a bad effect, on ME, Fox, etc. To an extent, [b:4f91473e18] that is exactly the intention[/b:4f91473e18]!

By this I do not mean that the kittens as a group are determined to destroy "Buffy" and ME for no reason. The "effect" I think most of us are trying to achieve is this:

1. Joss made one, perhaps several bad judgment calls about Season Six. The kittens feel strongly about this, and want to make sure the message is heard loud and clear. This is called "criticism", and it is well within a fan's right to do so.

2. Some of these bad judgements, Tara's death and Spike's attempted rape in particular, have caused some amount of outrage. Joss and ME should acknowledge this, not as a way of denying their right to creative freedom, but to the extent that they acknowledge that the choices they've made have had some very hurtful consequences, they have been disrespectful in some of their comments made about the issue so far, and they want to make amends. It's perfectly fine to apologize for unintended consequences; conscientious people do it all the time.

3. Willow and Tara had something very special on many levels. A legitimate argument can be made, based on what other characters in the past have done and how they have dealt with "bad" things that come up, that Tara's death was unnecessary. Joss can disagree all he wants, but his claim that is was the only way to end the season can be legitimately challenged. Joss had choices to make, the paths were varied, and he chose this one. He therefore deserves any praise or criticism he receives.

4. If recent comments are to be believed, Joss and the rest of ME were not really sure if Willow should stay a lesbian next season or even how much she should actually be grieving for the loss of her soul mate. The idea that Willow's lesbianism might be played as a "well that was fun, now back to the boys" adds even more outrage to the initial amount felt at the death of Tara. ME screwed up again, and they need to know they did.

5. Joss/ME need to [b:4f91473e18] fix what they've broken[/b:4f91473e18]! Preferably by bringing Tara back. I think it's safe to say all the episodes for next season have not yet been written, let alone filmed. We want ME to know that there [b:4f91473e18] is[/b:4f91473e18] a problem and that they [b:4f91473e18] must[/b:4f91473e18] address the issues the fans have about the disaster that was Season Six.

Does this result in problems for ME, Buffy, etc.? Only if they all continue to fail Public Relations 101. Answer the fans in a sincere manner, prove you understand why they're upset, indicate in some concrete-yet-none-spoiler ways how you intend to make things right, and see what happens. Who knows, some people may actually decide to watch Season Seven.

Our anger did not come out of nowhere, and for the most part it's not impossible to address. Any competent producer or studio head should be able to get their head around this one, and it won't take years to address. Problem. Several solutions, including bringing back Tara from the dead (it's easy- just ask Angel and Buffy). What are they afraid of?

BostonWillowFan
BostonWillowFan
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby BBOvenGuy » Tue Jul 30, 2002 11:36 am

Wow, BostonWillowFan! I wish I'd written that... :D
BBOvenGuy
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby Oriyon » Tue Jul 30, 2002 11:39 am

My gf found this and showed it to me ... I haven't seen it posted yet so here's the link and article

www.gaytoday.com/entertain/072902en.asp

A Heinous Clich Raises Its Ugly Head


By Rodger Streitmatter
Media Matters

Buffy brings us back to reality Sometimes it seems like whenever we begin to relax and feel confident that the mainstream media are finally portraying gay people fairly and accurately, an incident slaps us back into reality.

A case in point is Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

The youth-oriented series broke new creative ground six years ago by introducing a world populated by demons, vampires, witches and one super-powered young woman in the title role.

Those of us who applaud a larger gay presence in the various forms of media were even more impressed when, some three years ago, Buffy's best friend gradually emerged as a lesbian.

Our appreciation for the UPN program grew stronger still when Willow and her girlfriend Tara's relationship evolved as one that was neither sensationalized nor sanitized. Indeed, their romance was treated with a level of sensitivity and reality that was virtually unparalleled in network TV. Unlike the boys of Will & Grace and Dawson's Creek, these girls held hands and stroked each other's hair and occasionally exchanged a gentle kiss-a gay couple showing affection . . . imagine!


And then came the slap.

First, an unconscionably evil nerd who meant to murder Buffy shot and killed Tara instead. Willow, propelled by blood-red rage and vengeance, then tortured and killed the nerd before moving on to a demonic plot to destroy the entire world. So much for sensitivity.

Bloody from Buffy the Vampire Slayer I know that those of us in academia can be criticized, and often rightly so, for indulging in too much analysis. But it doesn't take a PhD in critical studies to recognize these recent plot turns as fitting into what I will label the "dead/evil lesbian clich."

According to this heinous formula, no lesbian-and certainly no lesbian couple-can ever find true happiness but ultimately will suffer a tragic end.

Perhaps the most high-profile example of this demeaning clich is the 1992 film Basic Instinct, in which Sharon Stone's character is a murderer and her crazy and insanely jealous girlfriend ends up dead.

I could cite a dozen other examples. One of the earliest came in the 1962 film The Children's Hour, in which the Shirley MacLaine character confesses her love for the Audrey Hepburn character-and then hangs herself.

One of the most recent versions of this tired Hollywood plotline came just last year in Mulholland Drive, which ends with a lesbian having her ex-girlfriend murdered and then turning a gun on herself.


The recent Buffy segments followed a disturbingly similar course. Not only did they come complete with the two-for-one lesbian clich package of one dead lesbian and one evil lesbian, but the setting and events leading up to Tara's death also fell into line with the storied lesbian clich.

One of the most overused features of the concept has been that the death is generally directly connected with the act of lesbian sex, usually occurring soon after a couple has made love. Tara died at the end of an episode that included her and Willow having sex-indeed, she took her last breath beside the very bed in which the two young women had slept together only minutes before.

Likewise, consistent with many past examples, Tara's death was a horribly violent one. A bullet ripped through her chest, showering Willow with her lover's blood.

For me, though, what is the most distressing about the recent Buffy example of the "dead/evil lesbian clich" is that I really thought the program was committed to providing an accurate depiction of lesbian characters that young people could identify with.

So did others. Back in 2000, the Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation commended the program. GLAAD even went so far as to urge viewers to contact Joss Whedon, the producer behind the storyline, and thank him.

The aspect of the Willow and Tara characters during the last couple years that I particularly liked was that they were neither idealized nor irreconcilably flawed. When Tara was introduced, she was painfully shy, inarticulate, self-conscious and no Jennifer Aniston in the looks department-just like real-life teenagers. Willow had her faults, too; her dependence on magic became such a problem, in fact, that it drove Tara to break up with her.

And so, likewise, the young women's relationship was less than perfect. After Tara moved out of the home that she and Willow had shared, both characters struggled to regain their emotional balance. Only after several months had passed and Willow had confronted her addiction-in this instance, magic, but it could just as easily have been drugs or alcohol-did the two characters arrange a coffee date and then a reconciliation.

The message: Gay life-like life in general-is not always easy. But, with perseverance and commitment to growth, gay life-again, like life in general-most certainly can be rich and fulfilling.

As a college professor who sees dozens of young people struggling with their sexual identity every year, I was very pleased that I could finally recommend Buffy as a television program that provided a picture of young gay life that was both realistic and positive.

I no longer can.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rodger Streitmatter, Ph.D. is a member of the School of Communication faculty at American University in Washington, D.C. His latest book, Voices of Revolution: The Dissident Press in America has just been published by Columbia University Press. He is also the author of Unspeakable: The Rise of the Gay & Lesbian Press in America (Faber & Faber, 1995) and Raising Her Voice: African American Women Journalists Who Changed History (The University Press of Kentucky, 1994)
Oriyon
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby Sheridan » Tue Jul 30, 2002 11:42 am

[quote:a5073dc955][b:a5073dc955][i:a5073dc955]Quote:[/i:a5073dc955][/b:a5073dc955]
I was simply pointing out that a lot of people feel that your actions, noble or not, could end up having ramifications that you can't foresee and/or didn't intend.
[/quote:a5073dc955]

Don't be coy, tell us what these ramifications are. Fewer lesbian couples on TV? Making Joss feel bad? I mean just what are these ramifications?
Sheridan
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby BostonWillowFan » Tue Jul 30, 2002 11:44 am

BBOvenGuy,

Hey, what can I say? You've inspired me! :-)

Any more replies from the letters you've sent?

BostonWillowFan
BostonWillowFan
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby Epicurus » Tue Jul 30, 2002 11:49 am

That was a great article. Thanks for the link.

Um why in the heck was there a picture of Buffy and a picture of Spike on the website's page?

...yeah I'm picky -but- I am grateful when more and more people recognize the mistakes BTVS took this season.
Epicurus
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby AutumnT » Tue Jul 30, 2002 11:49 am

[b:9355cb8745] Boston[/b:9355cb8745] - Thanks for your well reasoned comments.

[b:9355cb8745] Oriyon[/b:9355cb8745] - Thank you for posting that. Make sure it gets in the media response thread. Slayage needs a heads up on it too.

[b:9355cb8745] DigificWriter[/b:9355cb8745] - I am, and will continue to be much more concerned about gay teens and the harmful effects of Whedon's lies on them than I will ever be about Joss Whedon and his own self destructive tendencies with his career. Pointing fingers at the kittens for just talking about what Whedon himself did is just plain silly. If you want to do something I suggest writing to Joss and telling him to pull his oversized head out of his ass before [b:9355cb8745] he[/b:9355cb8745] gets all his shows canceled via his enormous ego and continued misjudgments about what fans need. Or even about what people might consider entertainment. Because I am just so sure that gay teens who are struggling with their sexuality really needed to see the only representation of themselves splattered all over a white shirt. Not.
AutumnT
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby Dave V » Tue Jul 30, 2002 12:03 pm

BostonWillowFan, great post!

Oriyon, thank you for the article.

Autumn T, I cannot fathom why ME's negative effect on GLTB youth cannot be acknowledged by ME's supporters. People fear that mere talking about what ME did will cause ME some harm? I submit that any such harm PALES in comparison to the harm ME themselves caused.
Dave V
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby RealitySpeaks » Tue Jul 30, 2002 12:12 pm

[quote:994932ec1c][b:994932ec1c][i:994932ec1c]Quote:[/i:994932ec1c][/b:994932ec1c]
[b:994932ec1c] Edited by xita for clear violations of the FAQ, insults towards the community, personal insults and now Willow's bi.

You didn't read the faq, or you did and can't follow it, you've lost the privilege to post here.

xita [/b:994932ec1c]
[/quote:994932ec1c]
RealitySpeaks
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby AutumnT » Tue Jul 30, 2002 12:13 pm

[quote:fb590e8af7][b:fb590e8af7][i:fb590e8af7]Quote:[/i:fb590e8af7][/b:fb590e8af7]
I submit that any such harm PALES in comparison to the harm ME themselves caused.
[/quote:fb590e8af7] Yeah, pretty amazing given the astronomical rate of suicide attempts amongst gay kids (The [i:fb590e8af7] Boston Globe[/i:fb590e8af7] recently reported that [b:fb590e8af7] 40%[/b:fb590e8af7] of Massachusetts gay teens attempt suicide. [b:fb590e8af7] 40%[/b:fb590e8af7]). And yet these people are worried about a rich TV producer and how it might hurt him when his lies are exposed. That's some pretty fucked up values if you ask me.
AutumnT
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby Sheridan » Tue Jul 30, 2002 12:16 pm

Enough is enough, the mods can take this down, but you sir are a troll. This last post can only be inteneded to insult the membership of the kitten board. Your latest argument is contemptible and deliberately provocative Let's agree to disagree and you just go find a board where they share your views
Sheridan
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby AutumnT » Tue Jul 30, 2002 12:27 pm

Not only is that last argument obvious trolling but it is in fact against the rules of the FAQ. Hopefully that will finally be enough to rid ourselves of this.
AutumnT
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby BoredNow99 » Tue Jul 30, 2002 12:27 pm

Thank-you Sheridan

After catching up with the lovely little exchange over the last ten minutes, I appear to have lost the ability to speak.

Well, the ability to speak sane and reasoned sentences befitting a Kitten that is.
BoredNow99
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby Willowlicious » Tue Jul 30, 2002 12:36 pm

[quote:078cf495c9][b:078cf495c9][i:078cf495c9]Quote:[/i:078cf495c9][/b:078cf495c9]
I know that those of us in academia can be criticized, and often rightly so, for indulging in too much analysis. But it doesn't take a PhD in critical studies to recognize these recent plot turns as fitting into what I will label the "dead/evil lesbian clich."
[/quote:078cf495c9]

Ummm. I'm not quite sure what to say. I'm very pleased that another article has been written about the cliche, but I'm a bit perplexed that a college professor and published author (including, ironically, Unspeakable: The Rise of the Gay & Lesbian Press in America) would cop the term "dead/evil lesbian cliche" from the FAQ and indeed plagiarize direct quotes from it without siting the source of the information or bothering to rewrite the material lifted from it. That's kind of...odd.

The FAQ is to share and be used as a source for articles, to be sure, but don't steal from it blatantly and act like you came to its conclusions all on your own. Especially if you're a professor who studies and writes about gay press.

Wow.

Great post, [b:078cf495c9] Boston[/b:078cf495c9]. ME has the power to rectify at least some of the uncomfortable situation it's placed itself in. However, Joss and Co. seem more interested in making offensive, petulant comments than owning up to any mistakes and fixing them. If that's all they are going to do to help themselves then, well, ooops.

Besides, Joss told Wanda he "doesn't care" about the outrage surrounding Tara's death. He's made it clear that he's the one in control, not his audience and not their "issues." So why should I fear that my protesting Tara's death will cause him any harm? Or, more to the point, why the hell should I care?

Amy
Willowlicious
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby Sheridan » Tue Jul 30, 2002 12:46 pm

As [b:fc5c2a2b7a] Autumn[/b:fc5c2a2b7a] pointed out what RS said actually violates the FAQ of the board. There is no point discussing this and it will be less effort for the mods to tidy up later if people just ignore it.
Sheridan
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby Garner » Tue Jul 30, 2002 12:52 pm

I am a petty person. I watched Buffy for many reasons, and grew to love the W/T relationship for many reasons. In season sucks most of those reasons were trampled by poor writing, lack of imagination, and thorughly repulsive rape and death scene that served little value except to cause more pain. When combined with the lies, the statements that this is what I needed, and the pain that I suffered and those that I cared about suffered and then it appeared that no notice was taken by Joss Whedon of that pain and he continued to add onto it, as did other ME writers, than I am afraid I reacted in a small petty way. I voiced my criticism, was ignored, and so decided that the only way these indiviuals would learn that they did something wrong was to exercise my the only option that might actually catch their attention: stop watching the show, encourage others to do similar, and to avoid anything touched by them ever again.

I do not need shows with the philosophy that Joss Whedon seems to want to put forth. I do not need the lies and backhandeed slaps he has given. If I can wreck Firefly or even Buffy, than I will rejoice, exalt and feel some degree of satisfaction. For at this point I would rather they all failed and did not continue than watch this or allow Joss Whedon to think that he has done nothing wrong. As I said, this is petty revenge. Am I justified in my views? Maybe, I don't care. It is the way I feel for what has occurred.

I do not for a second believe that anything I do will really have those desired effects. And Joss Whedon could easily short circuit my actions by bringing Tara back and making things right. That's what I want. He has the power to do this. I am exercising the only power I have to try and get this accomplished. Ultimately, it will be the show itself, Joss Whedon's creation and artistic vision, that will end up having the greatest influence. If he writes good stories, than his shows will continue no matter what I say. The quality will be there. If he writes crap, then my pettiness will be justified to an extent, and his shows will fail.

I am a petty person and I want his shows to fail. I accept responsibility for this view, others don't have to like it. They can watch or not as they see fit. But I will also not apologize for my opinions, and I will stand by them. Joss has given us pain and crap. The world needs less of both, not more.

Garner

(and if this belongs in the angry rant thread, by all means please move it there. I never seem to post in the right place!)
Garner
 

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