Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

[xita]

Well I haven't read his book, I am not sure what he is talking about actually in terms of recent portrayals. And he seems to me to be the type like GLAAD to be into ass kissing of celebs and media. He mentions NYPD Blue, I would put Will and Grace at the top of my no no list. Who are the happy lesbians, main characters.. i mean. Side people like the ones on Friends don't count to me. Oh I guess he wouldn't count the one who got shot on HBO today.

[Ben Varkentine]

As I said above, Xita, I really do suggest getting the book from the library or something if you can--very informative and well-written, IMO. He certainly doesn't come off in the book as an ass-kisser.

He writes about the idea for the book starting back in the '80s when he volunteered at a gay crisis line and heard from teenage caller after caller that their sole images of homosexuality came from TV.

And as you can see from my current sig, I find Will and Grace funny. What makes it a no no for you?

[xita]

Because they are gay men for jokes only. Will can't really ever be a happy gay men, the show cares more about the relationship between Will and Grace then anything else. I get this feeling watching it, oh Will should be with Grace. Plus the offensive jokes about the Guatemalan maid, not so funny to me.

[hilarita]

i think will and grace can be funny, although i havent watched that much of it, but it certainly isnt a positive portrayal of gay relationships.

edited to add: ben, can you ask this guy to please give examples:
[quote:b7eb4762ad][b:b7eb4762ad][i:b7eb4762ad]Quote:[/i:b7eb4762ad][/b:b7eb4762ad]

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The difference is that there have been so many nonevil, nondead lesbian roles on TV over the past eight years or so that I'm not sure the stereotype still exists.

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[/quote:b7eb4762ad]
im not being snarky i just really cant think of many. or any. aside from carol and susan and the folks on er. and i watch a lot of tv.

[urnofosiris]

Uhm what folks on ER? I don't recall happy gays on ER, Doyle and Legaspi got canned, Kerry was not exactly comfortable with the idea of people knowing, there was a one episode gay male couple, an older guy who was trying to give his desperate to be loved younger lover HIV, so they could 'share everything'. No sirree, no stereotypes on TV in the past 8 years.

[Willowlicious]

I haven't read his book, either. However, I strongly disagree with his assessment that there have been "so many" nonevil, nondead lesbian roles on TV in the last few years so as to negate the cliche. There are almost no major gay characters on network TV at all right now. Will and Jack from Will & Grace, Willow from BtVS and Kerry Weaver from ER. That's it.

And the cliche hinges not just on death, evil and unhappiness, but also on its connection to GAY SEX. Lesbian and gay sex is simply not depicted on network television. For the most part, there are those annoying sweeps episodes that feature a meaningless big gay kiss or there is celibacy (because gay characters are kept single). Willow and Tara were special because they were a rare depiction of a gay couple, but as has been discussed here in detail, they were not allowed to have an open sex life until the episode in which Tara was killed. They had an extremely RARE lesbian sex scene and then Tara was dead and Willow was evil.

Until gay characters are truly treated the same as straight characters--in that they are allowed to be in couples and have healthy sex lives--the cliche will thrive. It is not enough that gay characters are given some air time. They are not depicted equally when their sex lives are universally denied them or used against them.

And the case of Willow and Tara is not a simple one. Not only did their storyline end in a cliche, it involved a horrificly ill-advised mix of sex, magick, and addiction metaphors. It involved an appalling campaign of lies that brought harm to the gay community.

I don't care how much education this man has. I have a decent education, too. I am a writer, too. I am gay, too. This man is no more qualified in his opinion than I am. He is no more qualified than the many people here who believe that it was a cliche. He's no more qualified than the Ph.D.s, authors, professors, reporters who have posted here and written letters to Bob and to me expressing their personal disgust with the offensive manner of Tara's death.

I'm tired of certain segments of the gay press being content to give free passes to producers who have gay characters on their shows without any concern to how these characters are portrayed. It's been more than five years since Ellen came out. That event was supposed to change things, but gay characters still can't have lasting relationships, they can rarely kiss, they almost never have sex and many of them still end up dead, evil or miserable. (Will...celibate, Willow...evil/miserable, Tara...dead, Kerry...on/off romances/bitchy/unhappy). That's just not good enough.

It's time to ask for more. It's time to [i:afc829e7ff] demand[/i:afc829e7ff] more. Otherwise, we'll never, ever get more.

The time for contentment and gratitude is over.

Amy

[AutumnT]

Amen Amy. Amen.

And because I think you speak so much the way I wish I could over and over I give you this.

Red Wings Rule. Avs suck.

I hope you appreciate that.

[Willowlicious]

Wow, Autumn. I'm truly touched.

[Arafel the Witch]

Hey Autumn: The Wing Dings got lucky. The Avs will be back. So There!

I just wanted to touch on the Will and Grace thing. I love that show. I think it's clever and funny, and from what I understand there are a lot of gay writers on it. And as far as Will never being able to be happy, well, NONE of the characters are. Will is just as neurotic as Grace. I mean, it's a sitcom for crying out loud. It's not only the gay characters who aren't quite all there. But aside from that, there have been some really good instances of sort of growth. For instance, Woody Harrelson's ongoing role as Grace's boyfriend had the character dealing with homophobia and it was made pretty clear that it was unacceptable.

I've also seen enough of some of the older epis to see that, no, Will and Grace don't belong together romantically. It's been addressed several times. I don't see how you can watch it and think that Will and Grace should be a couple. If the writers ever did that, it would negate everything the show has been about.

[Sheridan]

I have to say I also find Will & Grace annoying because it perpetrates the stereotype if a man is sensitive to others needs, compassionate, or caring then he [i:9b4dca46d1] has[/i:9b4dca46d1] to be gay. And in terms of lesbian images, well sorry but I watch ER and Kerry Weaver [i:9b4dca46d1] is[/i:9b4dca46d1] evil.

[urnofosiris]

lol Sheridan and agreed as well

[quote:340c06b478][b:340c06b478][i:340c06b478]Quote:[/i:340c06b478][/b:340c06b478]

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And as far as Will never being able to be happy, well, NONE of the characters are

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[/quote:340c06b478]

Eh, that sounds like the none of the couples on Buffy are happy argument. I don't see that that makes it ok, why can't Will not have a long lasting happy relationship and kiss, would that not be funny? There are plenty endlessly many innumerable sitcoms that feature happy hetero relationships.

[b:340c06b478] Amy[/b:340c06b478], another amen from me.
[quote:340c06b478][b:340c06b478][i:340c06b478]Quote:[/i:340c06b478][/b:340c06b478]

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It's time to ask for more. It's time to demand more. Otherwise, we'll never, ever get more.

The time for contentment and gratitude is over.

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[/quote:340c06b478]


I have not seen so many nonevil, nondead lesbian roles on TV over the past eight years that negated the stereotypes. It would probably be easier for some to pretend that is the case instead of pointing out there is a problem. Denying there is a problem would make it easier to pretend there is no problem and that would make it easier to justify not saying or doing anything about it yourself.

Well by now it should be obvious that we are not just going to shut up and leave quietly. That would not change anything for the better. Some people like to think that just sitting here, not complaining or daring to criticize will magically make any inequality go away. Well it does not seem to be working now does it?

We praised Joss Whedon and ME for years, and look what it got us. We could and did praise them when they gave us something beautiful and unique but now that they destroyed it we can't criticize them and in fact should still say thank you. I don't understand that. Never will.

Then there are those who would say it is just a tv show, get over it. Of course it is perfectly ok for them to go on the internet and read about that just a tv show and then proceed to get upset about other criticizing that just a tv show. It is just a tv show, like Star Trek. Anyone feel like denying the importance of Lt Uhura?

What if when the original series was on the air Gene Roddenberry had decided to have Lt Uhura killed, or what if he had decided to demote her so she would only be allowed on the Bridge to serve the Captain his tea or clean his chair? Mind if anyone would have been angry then for taking away such a unique cliche breaking rolemodel? Think that would have inspired anyone or given hope?

If there was no such thing as a lesbian/gay stereotype/cliche on tv, if gays and lesbians were truly depicted equally on TV, like heterosexual people are -meaning that there would be evil, unhappiness and death, but also goodness, happiness and life in their proper proportions- then I would not be here raising my voice. I'd still be upset over losing this couple that I love, but I would not have any cause to call them on it (pretending they did not lie to me either in that Utopia). I'd be switching the channels and tuning into whatever I'd prefer to see. Some like angst, others prefer happiness, others a balanced mix. We would just be able to pick and choose, but you know what. We can't. The only choice we had was taken away. And not saying anything or just whispering won't make it better the next time.

[Willowlicious]

[quote:b65494b37b][b:b65494b37b][i:b65494b37b]Quote:[/i:b65494b37b][/b:b65494b37b]

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For instance, Woody Harrelson's ongoing role as Grace's boyfriend ...

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[/quote:b65494b37b]

And where is Will's ongoing boyfriend? Oh, right, he doesn't have one.

[kpmuse]

Plus, when have we ever seen a positive gay COUPLE not just a gay character here and there. Not so much on television! I am tired of the gay media /activist people / media watchers talking about all the gay characters on TV these past years. They still do not reflect our community in any consistent way. Most, as has been written, reflected some cliched stereotype. Willow & Tara were the only positive portrayal of a long term committed couple for any length of TV time. Period.

Does this author ever think that they will show Will with a long term lover in any realistic way? I hope with all my heart that TV will someday have the guts to do so, but I have strong doubts.

When I do think about it, I do see that there have been more lesbian characters on network television over the years than gay males, but the fact is that none of the women have really been allowed to be happy or positive for any length of time or for anything other than a ratings stunt. Let me see the lesbian equivalent of Monica and Chandler (Friends) or Raymond & Deb (Everybody Loves Raymond) or The King of Queens couple, or Bobby and Lindsey (The Practice), etc. Until then, I have to respectfully disagree with the author.

[Arafel the Witch]

<And where is Will's ongoing boyfriend? Oh, right, he doesn't have one.>

Well, yes, but Jack has had a few. And Woody Harrelson's role ended early last year after maybe 12 epis overall when Grace turned down his initial marriage proposal. And Will had a couple of relationships that didn't work out. I think the show is pretty equal opportunity.

[Warduke]

Grace has been allowed to have an ongoing relationship (and will have at least one more next year) where is Will's ongoing relationship? When has Will had a bf for more that one episode?

And to say that Jack has had a few relationships is a complete joke, thats the whole point of the character, he doesnt have any relationships, just sexual encounters, which as we all know, if the only kind of relationship gay people can have right?

[Sheridan]

Jack seems to be what we would call in the UK the 'camp' gay. That is the effiminate, often flamboyant stereotype. Actually the only lesbian character in UK TV that sticks in the mind was Beth Jordache, whoi killed her father and buried him under the patio, and her first girlfriend dumped her and went back to boystown, and her second was a predatory older woman, and oh yeah Beth eventually died in prison, so I think they covered every variation of the cliche there.

[pointystick]

really shouldn't comment because I've seen Will and Grace just a few times but I can't consider those folks as any kind of role model for myself or anybody else.


Missy

I have no mouth and I must scream

[AutumnT]

This is still on their website: www.glaad.org/org/publica...record=548

at least it gives a fax # for Mutant Enemy. Not that anyone here would use that for anything.

And I ran across this quote in an old EW article:[quote:aef8218309][b:aef8218309][i:aef8218309]Quote:[/i:aef8218309][/b:aef8218309]

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The Gay & Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation -- which is aware that the WB's ''Popular'' also will feature a girl-girl kiss in its Feb. 4 episode -- is hopeful about the potential positive impact of the Willow story arc on young audiences: ''It's not just to make gay and lesbian closeted teens feel better about themselves,'' says GLAAD's entertainment media director, Scott Seomin. ''These representations can educate potential gay bashers. If Willow is lesbian and all the characters accept her, maybe the straight viewers will accept the lesbian sitting next to them in homeroom.''

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[/quote:aef8218309]

[Ben Varkentine]

In thinking about Will and his (lack of) ongoing relationships, which is a fairly common criticism even among people who like the series (I mentioned it myself in my PT Closet review), something occured to me.

True, he hasn't had multi-season affairs like Tara and Willow. But the nature of a sitcom is that everything returns to square one at the end of each episode, with only a few exceptions. will & Grace inevitably return to singlehood, Jack stays...flamboyant, Karen stays drunk.

But meanwhile, Will & Grace has devoted episodes to gay parents, gay "commitment ceremonies" (the subjects of the latter being recurring characters), and many other "gay-centric" things that have rarely if ever been dealt with on television, let alone an NBC, thursday night, "must-see TV" hit. And while it's true Will always ends up breaking up, I think it's interesting to note that the reason for at least one breakup was that his boyfriend was closeted and wouldn't come out. And Will couldn't live that way and it was never even considered or suggested that he should.

I guess what I'm saying is that though I think I understand the anxiousness to have an out-and-proud gay male title character in an ongoing relationship...having a out-and-proud *single* gay male title character doesn't sound that bad to me either. Considering that in 1977 the inclusion of a gay supporting character on a series (Soap) drew 32,000 letters of protest from the Rev. Wildmon and his repressing repressed groups...we can see that progress has been made. And it will continue to be made.

"Tales From the City" was a step, "Ellen" was a step, "Will & Grace" was a step, and even Willow & Tara was a step. There will be more.

I suddenly feel like a rousing chorus of "Eyes on the Prize..."

[Sheridan]

[quote:343f5ccbd0][b:343f5ccbd0][i:343f5ccbd0]Quote:[/i:343f5ccbd0][/b:343f5ccbd0]

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and even Willow & Tara was a step

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[/quote:343f5ccbd0]

Yes [b:343f5ccbd0] Ben[/b:343f5ccbd0] but it turned out to be a step straight over a cliff.

[hilarita]

oh right, what have we been complaining about?

over the past eight years, what, maybe a few dozen lesbians on television? im not talking late night cable. ok, how many of these were recurring characters? how many of them died? went evil? lost their jobs for being gay? now how many do we have, 6? how many of them are happy and coupled? oh thats right- 2. and carol and susan get oh so much screen time. maybe if you stretch it you can include kerry and sandy. so thats 4.

what was i thinking.

[Arafel the Witch]

< carol and susan get oh so much screen time.>

Yes, although you could make an argument that they are far more important, given Friends' ratings. Friends has been top 10 for the last 8-9 years. It reaches something like 28 million homes a week. Carol and Susan are happy, together, and raising a child. And the show has poked fun at Ross' assumptions before about gender, especially in regards to his child.

Willow and Tara were the best relationship on TV, until Joss killed them. And I think that Joss has taken the heart from the show. But even at its best, Buffy was never in the top 50. The last time I checked, its ratings hadn't even cracked the top 100. And the demographic that does watch it is the one that is young and already more gay friendly. I found a poll recently were something like 50% of people in the 18-24 demographic support gay marriage, which is astonishing when you consider that in the year I was born, 1968, that issue wouldn't have even been considered, unless as a joke, and gays had zero rights. Things are changing for the better, not as much as one would like, and not as fast as one would hope, but they are getting better.

[urnofosiris]

Maybe things are getting better, they certainly did where I live, but they did not get better on their own, not because gay people were just sitting back and waiting for it to happen. As for BtVS I would not measure the importance or level of it's impact by the ratings. The positive portrayal of WT have affected so many people in the US, and *all* over the world for the better, and now their destruction will affect all those people for the worse and deprive those who would have watched the show later on re-runs of the hope WT gave us at first.

[tommo]

[quote:28c2437f86][b:28c2437f86][i:28c2437f86]Quote:[/i:28c2437f86][/b:28c2437f86]

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[b:28c2437f86] If Willow is lesbian and all the characters accept her, maybe the straight viewers will accept the lesbian sitting next to them in homeroom.'' [/b:28c2437f86]

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[/quote:28c2437f86]

That's a great theory. But I'm afraid young people today are heavily ingrained with preconceived ideas, which the media does little to dissolve. I think one of the reasons I left teaching is because part of it was stuck in this heterosexual ideal, which restrains the very notion of the idea above.

And you know, they fucked up with Willow. They had it all there in front of them, and they fucked up. And you can't ever take that back. That's what galls me. It's setting everything back for people like me; I'm talking from a personal viewpoint here. I feel like there's an undercurrent of futility that binds the media together and a lethargy that allows companies like ME to sink into this cliched imagery that serves [b:28c2437f86] their[/b:28c2437f86] purpose, and yet does nothing for us.

It's a testament to places like this that we're no longer satisfied with these crumbs from the plate of Joss Whedon. I'm afraid I'm entering an angry phase now. Because I feel personally maligned, and pushed aside as a valuable member of society, and why? Because I love women.

[Arafel the Witch]

Dr.G, just to clarify, I would never suggest waiting for things to happen. Things are getting better, but there is still plenty of fighting to do!!!!

[urnofosiris]

Oh I know you did not Arafel, I'm sorry, I was speaking in general. Arguments have been made here in this thread and others and in places outside this board which boil down to us just needing to shut up and not complain for there is nothing wrong blah de blah. If people would have always done so in my country gay people would still not be able to marry and women would still not be able to vote for example. Some things that are unjust that do not affect the majority -or rather those who are in control- hardly ever right themselves without those who are affected by it standing up for themselves. The silent treatment will not get us anywhere.

[xita]

Ok, I have a small rant in me. And it has to do with well meaning folks telling us to just be grateful we had them at all. It is in part motivated by the letter Ben posted. Of course the central idea here is hey you had gay folks, that should be enough. Thing is 20 years ago that would have been good enough. I ate up every little bit of it I could. I know from history that even bad portrayals were something gay folk treasured. Subtext was also something gay people have long held to.

And yes I will be forever thankful for w/t and the 3 seasons they were in love, it is almost entirely wiped out by the ending of it. And I am not thankful for that and I am angry about that. I am a big fan of Auto Racing, but you'd have to be a blind idiot not to notice it's all for white men. I am glad a black man competed in the Indy 500 this year, I am glad Sarah Fischer grabbed the pole in the IRL last weekend. But should I be glad and that's it , no. I am upset there aren't more black people involved in racing, more women. There is no reason for it other than prejudice.

I think of Golf and Tiger Woods. It's amazing he is doing great, but he's nearly the only one. Is that cool? no.. But this goes even beyond that.. If the head of the PGA fired Tiger Woods and told him he could never compete ever again, then a random PGA KKK member shot a bullet in the air that accidentally hits and kills Tiger. Would we be grateful we had Tiger Woods at all? Or decry the "accident" and mourn the loss of the only black image golf has?

I am beyond thinking "The Children's Hour" is the best I can do. I don't have to settle... W/T was the only long term gay couple on tv, ever. Only one .. . 3 years of love. And they end it like this. You know this society likes to fuck with gay people. On the one hand we are promiscuous people who just like to fuck around and get it while we can, we aren't supposed to know about love and wouldn't know it cause all we have is an illness. On the other hand they deny us the right to marry because that's just for a man and woman. We aren't allowed the institutions and support heterosexuals have in support of their relationships. W/T provided that kind of role model and this cannot be replaced.

I have given up on getting Tara back and seeing the love that is w/t on my screen again. This isn't about that. Tara's gone. But I am not going to stop wishing it had been different. I don't want to live in world were wishes should be buried, where voices should be silenced.

What do I hope to accomplish? A change. . . Joss has the right to tell his story, but he could have told it accomplished the same goals but achieved a far greater thing. He could have been the man who did it right who would forever live as the first, now he lives in the same list with "Cruising" and "Basic Instinct." I hope the next time someone who has heard us tries to do something they think about the impact on society and choose the greater good.

[Tulipp]

Xita, well put and very moving. I know technically I shouldn't quote something in the post above, but here it is:

[quote:36ff74c8a6][b:36ff74c8a6][i:36ff74c8a6]Quote:[/i:36ff74c8a6][/b:36ff74c8a6]

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I don't want to live in world were wishes should be buried, where voices should be silenced.

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[/quote:36ff74c8a6]

Thank God or Goddesses that this board is here, that you mods keep it going, that there is at least this place where wishes get to live and voices get to speak. You're damn right that we should be past "The Children's Hour," and here, at least, we are.

I still love W/T, but I'm not going to be grateful that it took them three years before they went to the same place they've always gone.

What I WILL be grateful for is this place here. The Kitten and Pens.

[Kendahl897]

The point is that you can take gay and cliche out of it and that we still have every reason in the world to be upset about it because we were consistently lied to for two years and then betrayed..If the producers and writers at ME had made the same reassurances about Spike or Anya or any other character and then turned around and killed them off, you can bet your paycheck that they ( FANS) would be as upset as we are, and they would have every right to be..But you know what, when you alienate and disrespect a portion of your audience, especially one who had more invested in Willow and Tara, as we did, than most people, well than, you can expect that audience to turn the channel..which alot of people seem to be doing..Don't care if we won't watch, your story had to be told, audience be damned? Fine, but in Hollywood, it's the ratings that count, who cares about the story when people aren't watching?

[Ben Varkentine]

I also find myself reminding people (on other boards, usually) that I can take lesbian *and* cliche *and* the lying thing out of it and I'd still be pissed at Tara's death.

Because I look a the sixth season as an almost systematic destruction of the characters, leaving Tara the only decent, moral, even heroic one left.

And then...