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Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

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Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby Sheridan » Mon Aug 19, 2002 6:17 am

Yes [b:d4e45d3194] Tommo[/b:d4e45d3194] the pacing was terribly rushed. It was like they were marking time episode after episode where they just repeated the same story over and over. Then we get this super rushed ending with this huge storyline being packed in to three episodes. If they had started the reconcilitation in 'Hells Bells' where it was obvious they were feeling romantic then they could have paced it better. The lack of respect or mourning for Tara was a product of the fact that there was no time or space. To do the story justice they needed at least half a season, but then they would have had to follow the logic of their original story and Tara wouldn't have had to die at all.
Sheridan
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby xita » Mon Aug 19, 2002 8:23 am

OH and it wouldn't have happened during May sweeps, because you know they would never use the lesbians as a sweeps stunt, oh they did, they always did. Sorry.
xita
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby Sheridan » Mon Aug 19, 2002 8:44 am

[quote:c9e82a3812][b:c9e82a3812][i:c9e82a3812]Quote:[/i:c9e82a3812][/b:c9e82a3812]
OH and it wouldn't have happened during May sweeps, because you know they would never use the lesbians as a sweeps stunt, oh they did, they always did. Sorry.
[/quote:c9e82a3812]

Hmmm, if Amber is only going to do one or two eps anyone else think they know when those eps might be aired?
Sheridan
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby BBOvenGuy » Mon Aug 19, 2002 8:49 am

Another update after last night's episode of [i:5c3329c485] The Wire[/i:5c3329c485].

Kima Greggs is still alive! She's in really bad shape, still unconscious with the possibility that she could end up paralyzed, but she's alive.

And on top of that, there were a couple of really great scenes featuring Kima's girlfriend, including an interesting one at the hospital when Kima's friends and colleagues are trying to explain to the clueless commissioner and deputy commissioner just who she is. It was certainly much much more than another grieving lesbian girlfriend I could mention got to do. I mean, Kima's girlfriend didn't think about destroying the world once. :rolleyes
BBOvenGuy
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby relativegirl » Mon Aug 19, 2002 9:10 am

You mean it's possible that a grieving lesbian [i:1c22c17f17] wouldn't[/i:1c22c17f17] immediately want to destroy the world or at least go on a hysterical crime spree? Is it that even possible? [i:1c22c17f17] RG scratches head & furrows brow[/i:1c22c17f17] Who knew?
relativegirl
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby AutumnT » Mon Aug 19, 2002 9:13 am

Wow. Was she at least a little evil? Like did she kick a dog or something?
AutumnT
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby xita » Mon Aug 19, 2002 9:22 am

no, she just cried. Imagine that.
xita
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby AutumnT » Mon Aug 19, 2002 9:36 am

Well what the hell kinda lesbian is she then? ;)
AutumnT
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby mscheckmate » Mon Aug 19, 2002 9:41 am

Well, there will be two more eps of "The Wire." Kima still has plenty of time to die, and her girl still has plenty of time to go evil. :evil
mscheckmate
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby tommo » Mon Aug 19, 2002 9:42 am

This is clearly unprecedented. My whole plan for world domination using the evil properties of smut has now been rocked to its very core.

A lesbian. Who's. Not. Evil. Or. Insane.

Nah, no matter which way I look at it, I'm not buying that. Sorry.
tommo
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby roamin » Mon Aug 19, 2002 10:30 am

oops I went and got spoiled for this episode.

I taped it last night since my toddler has been getting me up pretty early these days.

As for Kima's GF not going evil - give her time, maybe she will try ambushing Avon, and then once she's done she'll try destroying the world. I'm sure she'll at the very least start scaring small children.

The thing is when Omar's BF was sadistically tortured and murdered by Avon's crew - Omar did go out for revenge with a shot gun in hand. But that wasn't cliched or offensive. It fit with who Omar is and the life that we have seen him live on The Wire. I wouldn't have expected anything less from him.

Willow's rampage doesn't make sense to me and doesn't fit with who she has been - and for me that's the issue.
roamin
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby Sheridan » Mon Aug 19, 2002 1:01 pm

[quote:1c15219837][b:1c15219837][i:1c15219837]Quote:[/i:1c15219837][/b:1c15219837]
Willow's rampage doesn't make sense to me and doesn't fit with who she has been - and for me that's the issue
[/quote:1c15219837]

Sense, sense, no sorry I've checked my copy of the Joss Whedon dictionary and I don't see that word in there.
Sheridan
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby BoredNow99 » Mon Aug 19, 2002 1:22 pm

At this point, would it be terrible of me to repeat the old saying that where there's no sense, there's no feeling?
BoredNow99
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby tommo » Mon Aug 19, 2002 1:28 pm

Ah, the vitriol. It's really quite heartwarming to see it. [i:20e313b0f8] *sniff, sob*[/i:20e313b0f8]

I love you guys...
tommo
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby AutumnT » Tue Aug 20, 2002 7:44 am

A friend wrote to me today whom I had educated about this particular cliche' to tell me that now she notices it all the time. She just saw [i:b1d3a8c844] Possession[/i:b1d3a8c844] and apparently their is a bisexual woman in it whose lesbian lover meets an untimely death. Haven't seen it myself yet, just wanted to give a heads up.
AutumnT
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby famer » Tue Aug 20, 2002 10:15 am

I saw [b:277148e75b] Possession [/b:277148e75b] last week and it was all kinds of bad.

[b:277148e75b] AutumnT's [/b:277148e75b] warning should be heeded re: the cliche. Don't know if anyone wants details (?) but suffice to say that Girlstown looks to be turning into a ghost town. Watching the film, I was forcefully (and unwillingly) reminded of the cliche a la Tara. Couldn't get it outta my mind, unfortunately. Left the theatre with that kind of suffocating feeling.

Regarding the film in general, it is getting really good reviews. I watched it with a gay boy and we agreed that Possession was awful on sooo many levels. It hoarded as many cliches as it could, it was mind-numbingly predictable and the dialogue would have to go a step up to reach banal.

Interestingly, Paltrow has been doing interviews with the Gay Press (ie. PlanetOut) with nary a mention of the cliche. Fortunately in this month's [b:277148e75b] Advocate [/b:277148e75b], there's an article entitled [b:277148e75b] [i:277148e75b] "In the company of women [/i:277148e75b] - Neil LaBute revives lesbian clichs in Possession [/b:277148e75b]. There's no link to it so, if any Kitten's got the article on hand...
famer
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby AutumnT » Tue Aug 20, 2002 12:36 pm

OK here's the quotes from [i:fc1119659b] The Advocate[/i:fc1119659b]: [quote:fc1119659b][b:fc1119659b][i:fc1119659b]Quote:[/i:fc1119659b][/b:fc1119659b]
Seven decades after Lillian Hellman's play [i:fc1119659b] The Children's Hour[/i:fc1119659b] validated and annihilated lesbian desire in the same breath, [i:fc1119659b] Possession[/i:fc1119659b] returns gay women to the back of the bus, relegating Blanche to the thankless role of the long-suffering, suicidal doormat.
[/quote:fc1119659b]
AutumnT
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby tommo » Tue Aug 20, 2002 2:12 pm

Sweet Jesus. Doesn't anyone get it?

Incidentally, I watched [b:bcc3193cdb] Mulholland Drive[/b:bcc3193cdb] tonight. Wish I hadn't. That's four quid I'll never see again. :rolleyes
tommo
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby Dave V » Tue Aug 20, 2002 3:04 pm

Thanks, everyone, for the info on Possession. The forewarning saved me the price of a pair of movie tickets.

Ruth, I watched Mulholland Drive awhile ago, not having heard the buzz. I was liking it until it dawned on me what was really happening...bleah.
Dave V
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby Jennem » Wed Aug 21, 2002 3:59 pm

I just read the Cliche for the first time, and...I have to applaud everyone that was involved in creating it.

That. was. amazing.

There's more I want to say, but I can't seem to express it very well. I keep writing it, reading it, and then deleting it.

Not only was it an incredible, enlightening piece of writing, but it was also pround and touching. It...explained many things to me, and it helped me identify with where all of you are coming from.

Heck, I'm not nearly as vested in the WT relationship, or the need to have more gay/lesbian couples portrayed in a good light in the media as all of you are (that's not saying that I'm not vested at all...just that I *know* many of you are so much more so than I), and I want to plaster this thing all over the net. I want the writers to see it. I want Fox to see it. I want ME to see it. And I want them to see it ten billions time. I don't want them to be able to NOT see it for a day. Because everything you said in this was 100%, absolutely correct.

All of you did a wonderful job. I can't really say anthing other than that.

Great work,
Jennem
Jennem
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby Ben Varkentine » Wed Aug 21, 2002 8:46 pm

"I want to plaster this thing all over the net. I want the writers to see it. I want Fox to see it. I want ME to see it."

Aren't we comfortably certain all this has already happened?
:-)

Welcome to you, Jennem.
Ben Varkentine
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby WebWarlock » Thu Aug 22, 2002 5:58 am

Jennem,

I am glad you found this and that it means so much to you.

As far as letting ME/Fox/UPN and everyone know. Well I am sure they do, but it never hurts to remind them once in a while.

Warlock
WebWarlock
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby Pipsqueak » Thu Aug 22, 2002 9:56 pm

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know if Amber Benson has received or read a copy of the FAQ?

Sorry if this has been addressed already, but I'm much too lazy to page through 800-odd replies looking for it. :grin

[i:8aa5db81d1] ETA[/i:8aa5db81d1] thanks Xita!
Pipsqueak
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby xita » Thu Aug 22, 2002 10:13 pm

Well read it? Who knows but she's been handed a copy personally by one of the Authors and she got a good indication that Amber was interested.
xita
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby helpful information perha » Sun Aug 25, 2002 5:11 am

has anyone contacted the writer at the advocate who just did this review of Possession/the "lesbian cliche"?

the other recent piece in the advocate on whedon's use of he cliche should be pointed out to the Possession reviewer (as well as the new book that just made the shelves with regard to the cliche on the small screen). Perhaps with some urging we can get them to do an in depth piece on this topic?

In any case the advocate has now run two recent articles on "the cliche" (large and small screen) which gives a great opening for writing LETTERS TO THE EDITOR of the Advocate!
helpful information perha
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby Ben Varkentine » Sun Aug 25, 2002 7:09 am

"the new book that just made the shelves with regard to the cliche on the small screen"

Which new book is that? Prime Time Closet, or something different?
Ben Varkentine
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby urnofosiris » Sun Aug 25, 2002 12:00 pm

DaLilBit, somethings appears to not go right when you post, are you trying to use your own codes maybe? In any case, you cannot use images in your sig, only 3 lines of text plus one for your name, plus one seperation line. We want to keep sigs short so posts are easier to read.
urnofosiris
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby DaLilBit » Sun Aug 25, 2002 1:31 pm

Rebutting The Dead/Evil Lesbian Cliche

I'm gonna start out by saying that I am not a lesbian. So its entirely possible that I really can't feel what a lesbian feels when a character who was loved as much as Tara is killed.

1.The burning question: Did Tara have to die? No. She didn't. However I think the writers realized that death brings out the rawest emotions in a person. In The Body we saw Buffy go through a gamut of emotion in just a few minutes.
2.What happened to Tara is not unique. Take the case of one Jenny Calender. For the most part Jenny was not a Scooby. She was Giles love interest. Here's a pattern I see in both her and Tara: Suspicion--Acceptance--Death. When Tara first appeared she came off as suspicious. Not because she was a lesbian(I admit my gaydar only works on guys. I wouldn't know a lesbian if I attended The National Association of Lesbian Lawyers convention.). It was the fact that she seemed to be holding back. In Family we find out that she thought she was going to turn into a demon. After that I came to really like her alot. And in the Buffyverse when you start to like a character or ship its days are surely numbered.
3.Was Tara really a Scooby? I'd say she was a Scooby by association. Mainly because she wasn't in every episode of any of the seasons she's appeared in. Mostly she was portrayed as Willow's girlfriend and as a secondary witch. The writers used Tara to show off the many facets of Willow while not really telling us anything about her and I think Tara suffered as a character because of it.
4.BtVS has a rather dynamic storyline. Characters are added and deleted as needed. Alot of people said that Anya should have died instead of Tara. I disagree with that. Anya has played an extremely active role in the Scooby Gang and stayed with the SG even after her breakup with Xander. Tara stayed away from the gang and Willow after Tabula Rasa and if she and Willow had never made up I have reason to believe that she would have continued to stay away. Maybe coming around to act as Dawn's babysitter/mother figure now and then.
5.People lie. I knew Steve DeKnight was lying when he said Tara wasn't going to die. Once I heard that Willow was going evil I knew it would be because Tara died.
6.Willow's journey with magic has been a long one. Sometimes amusing and sometimes frightening. I thought Willow would go over the edge alot sooner than she did. I think that Tara leaving her at the end of Tabula Rasa actually made the situation worse. Willow does not deal with loss or pain well. She has always buried herself in magic to drown it out. If Tara hadn't come along in s4 she might have been the big bad that season. Willow's going evil was just a build up of all the loss she never wanted to face. Oz's leaving. Buffy's death. Tara's leaving her. Tara's death. She had to face it all at once and she went off the deep end. The fact that she is a lesbian really has nothing to do with it.
7.Willow and Tara truly had a beautiful relationship. It made me feel good about TV and the world in general. Why concentrate on the negatives? Look at the big picture for a sec. Buffy left an unhealthy relationship and never looked back. Xander finally had to be the grown up and act like a real man. For the first time Willow had to deal with loss in a natural way. And somewhere in LA...a black guy and a white girl are in a positive relationship. ME's report card: B-

thats the end...of my rant...hope it made some sense...feedback would be great...troyssis@yahoo.com


edited to add...I'm an idiot...I had arrows in my post...
DaLilBit
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby roamin » Sun Aug 25, 2002 1:44 pm

I guess I'll just say that for gay and lesbian teens everywhere the big picture is ......no picture.

As a straight person growing up you had thousands of role models on TV, in movies and in books to look to. A gay or lesbian teen had Willow and Tara. Now they have nothing. ME had a chance to keep doing a lot of good and still tell a compelling story. They chose not to.

ME's grade D
roamin
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby Sheridan » Sun Aug 25, 2002 2:01 pm

1.The burning question: Did Tara have to die? No. She didn't. However I think the writers realized that death brings out the rawest emotions in a person. In The Body we saw Buffy go through a gamut of emotion in just a few minutes.

[b:836c541c7a] Yes we did so why do it again? Using Tara as a means to wring pain out of the audience was a cheap trick.[/b:836c541c7a]

2.What happened to Tara is not unique. Take the case of one Jenny Calender. For the most part Jenny was not a Scooby. She was Giles love interest. Here's a pattern I see in both her and Tara: Suspicion--Acceptance--Death. When Tara first appeared she came off as suspicious. Not because she was a lesbian(I admit my gaydar only works on guys. I wouldn't know a lesbian if I attended The National Association of Lesbian Lawyers convention.). It was the fact that she seemed to be holding back. In Family we find out that she thought she was going to turn into a demon. After that I came to really like her alot. And in the Buffyverse when you start to like a character or ship its days are surely numbered.

[b:836c541c7a] Sorry but it doesn't wash. The only reason B/A ended was to do Angel the series. Every other relationship broke up for real world reasons, ie the actor/actress wanted to leave. In short the plot was wrttien around the actor not the other way round.[/b:836c541c7a]

3.Was Tara really a Scooby? I'd say she was a Scooby by association. Mainly because she wasn't in every episode of any of the seasons she's appeared in. Mostly she was portrayed as Willow's girlfriend and as a secondary witch. The writers used Tara to show off the many facets of Willow while not really telling us anything about her and I think Tara suffered as a character because of it.

[b:836c541c7a] In S5 perhaps, but by S6 she was a mother to Dawn, a confidante to Buffy, and a foil to Spike, she had become in every sense a part of them.[/b:836c541c7a]

4.BtVS has a rather dynamic storyline. Characters are added and deleted as needed. Alot of people said that Anya should have died instead of Tara. I disagree with that. Anya has played an extremely active role in the Scooby Gang and stayed with the SG even after her breakup with Xander. Tara stayed away from the gang and Willow after Tabula Rasa and if she and Willow had never made up I have reason to believe that she would have continued to stay away. Maybe coming around to act as Dawn's babysitter/mother figure now and then.

[b:836c541c7a] Well as my last answer pointed out not so. Who else were the gang going to look to for magical support, and watch the scenes between Tara and Dawn, they are parent and child, not simply child and babysitter. Should Anya have died? No, there was no 'need' for anyone to die.[/b:836c541c7a]

5.People lie. I knew Steve DeKnight was lying when he said Tara wasn't going to die. Once I heard that Willow was going evil I knew it would be because Tara died.

[b:836c541c7a] Read Bob's essay, it contains a cogent outline of how they could have Willow go evil without the death of Tara. Basically her death only became necessary when they changed from a 'power corrupts' to a 'just say no' drugs plot midway through the season.[/b:836c541c7a]

6.Willow's journey with magic has been a long one. Sometimes amusing and sometimes frightening. I thought Willow would go over the edge alot sooner than she did. I think that Tara leaving her at the end of Tabula Rasa actually made the situation worse. Willow does not deal with loss or pain well. She has always buried herself in magic to drown it out. If Tara hadn't come along in s4 she might have been the big bad that season. Willow's going evil was just a build up of all the loss she never wanted to face. Oz's leaving. Buffy's death. Tara's leaving her. Tara's death. She had to face it all at once and she went off the deep end. The fact that she is a lesbian really has nothing to do with it.

[b:836c541c7a] It does when magic is used as a metaphor for sex for the best part of a season and a half. Watch any of the spells in the latter half of S4 and tell me you couldn't see the subtext. And Tara is gunned down as she is getting dressed after having sex with Willow, we didn't make the association, ME did.[/b:836c541c7a]

7.Willow and Tara truly had a beautiful relationship. It made me feel good about TV and the world in general. Why concentrate on the negatives? Look at the big picture for a sec. Buffy left an unhealthy relationship and never looked back. Xander finally had to be the grown up and act like a real man. For the first time Willow had to deal with loss in a natural way. And somewhere in LA...a black guy and a white girl are in a positive relationship. ME's report card: B-

[b:836c541c7a] ME took all the praise they got for their portrayal of W/T, they lied about Tara's death, fine to protect their storyline. But nothing, nothing can excuse their crassness and insensitivity in the aftermath of the death. They could have sympathised, instead is was sarcasm and one tasteless comment after another. Their B- has to be revoked in light of the fact that they cheated on the exam.[/b:836c541c7a]
Sheridan
 

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