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Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

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Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby Willowlicious » Sun May 12, 2002 8:56 am

[i:f83179ce31] This FAQ was written by Willowlicious and Kyraroc with the help of many members of the Kitten Board.[/i:f83179ce31]

[b:f83179ce31] In summary this FAQ states:[/b:f83179ce31]

1) That Joss Whedon and the writers of Mutant Enemy are [b:f83179ce31] NOT homophobic[/b:f83179ce31], but have perpetuated a hurtful lesbian clich with the death of Tara and the resulting Vengeance Willow storyline that ended Season Six of [i:f83179ce31] Buffy the Vampire Slayer.[/i:f83179ce31]

2) That, in public statements made both before and after Tara's death was planned, Joss Whedon and other Mutant Enemy writers indicated that Tara would not be killed off.

3) That creative freedom, ignorance and/or absence of malice on the part of Joss Whedon and Mutant Enemy do not excuse the social harm this storyline has caused.


[b:f83179ce31] The Death of Tara, the Fall of Willow and the Dead/Evil Lesbian Clich FAQ[/b:f83179ce31]

[i:f83179ce31] Copyright 2002 Kyraroc and Willowlicious.This FAQ may be reproduced in whole as long as this copyright statement remains intact.[/i:f83179ce31]


[b:f83179ce31] 1) What generally is the "Dead/Evil Lesbian Clich"?[/b:f83179ce31]

The "Dead/Evil Lesbian Clich" is a version of the basic "dead/evil minority clich" in which minority characters - gay people in general, all people of color - are introduced into a storyline in order to be killed or play the villain. For example, American Indians were almost always villains in westerns. The "black guy" used to be the servant in early films, then he became the drug dealer, then, when "equality" was reached, he got to be the funny sidekick who is tragically killed while all the white guys managed to get away. These clichs are so well known that many recent film comedies have made fun of the token "black guy" who gets killed.

Why were minorities always portrayed as villains or always killed off? Hatred and ignorance, to put it bluntly. Ironically, as various groups obtained more civil rights and demanded more representation in films and television, villain, sidekick and "dead cliche" roles were easy ways for producers to place minorities in their films without giving them meaningful roles. They could take credit for being "enlightened" without drawing ire from mainstream white America. So, whenever minorities started questioning why they received only "lesser" roles, producers could shoot back, "Well, I put a black guy in the movie." [i:f83179ce31] But he's dead.[/i:f83179ce31] "But he made an appearance." [i:f83179ce31] But he died.[/i:f83179ce31] "But it's better than nothing." [i:f83179ce31] But he always dies.[/i:f83179ce31] "Sorry. The white guy could've died, but he just didn't this time." [i:f83179ce31] But the white guy never dies.[/i:f83179ce31] "But he could." [i:f83179ce31] But he didn't[/i:f83179ce31]. "But it's theoretically possible." [i:f83179ce31] But...[/i:f83179ce31]

That's a very frustrating and insulting argument. We'd like to say that times have changed, but when you get to Question #10, revert back to this section and draw your own conclusions.

Onward...

[b:f83179ce31] 2) What specifically is the "Dead/Evil Lesbian Clich"?[/b:f83179ce31]

That all lesbians and, specifically lesbian couples, can never find happiness and always meet tragic ends. One of the most repeated scenarios is that one lesbian dies horribly and her lover goes crazy, killing others or herself. (Sound familiar?)

Until very recently, gays and lesbians were portrayed in film, television, literature and theater to be evil and miserable. They would be villains or weak victims or psychologically unstable people. They would stalk and try to pervert straight people. If one of them fell in love with someone of the same sex, this love would lead to death or insanity or both. A classic film example of this is 1961's [i:f83179ce31] The Children's Hour[/i:f83179ce31] starring Audrey Hepburn and Shirley MacLaine. MacLaine's character hangs herself after she confesses her love for Hepburn. Two films that portray predatory lesbians are [i:f83179ce31] Walk on the Wild Side[/i:f83179ce31] (1962) with Barbara Stanwyck and [i:f83179ce31] Young Man With a Horn[/i:f83179ce31] (1950) starring Lauren Bacall. [i:f83179ce31] The Fox[/i:f83179ce31] (1968) features Sandy Dennis as a lesbian who is crushed to death by a falling tree immediately after making love to Anne Heywood. A gay example (and there are TONS) is [i:f83179ce31] Rebel Without a Cause[/i:f83179ce31] (1955) in which Sal Mineo spends the film crushing on James Dean before getting a bullet in the back. These older films depicted gays this way because the filmmakers were trying to tell people that homosexuality is wrong. They wanted to show that no good could come from it. If you are gay, you are doomed. Period. Heterosexuality was the only safe option.

One would hope that the clich had died with modern times, but sadly it lives on. The intended moral message that homosexuality is wrong has mostly given way to a results-based exploitation. Lesbians and lesbian couples meet tragic fates in an alarmingly disproportionate number of films and TV shows. One of the most notorious recent examples is [i:f83179ce31] Basic Instinct[/i:f83179ce31] (1992), in which Sharon Stone's character is a murderer and her girlfriend is crazy, jealous and ends up dead. Another is [i:f83179ce31] Heavenly Creatures[/i:f83179ce31] (1994), which has the added horror of being a true story. In this film two teenage girls develop an intense sexual friendship which is blamed for the girls brutally murdering one of their mothers. [i:f83179ce31] Lost and Delirious[/i:f83179ce31] (2001) depicts a lesbian relationship at a boarding school that ends with one girl denying her love for the other because the peer pressure is too painful and the scorned girl leaping to her death after slowly going mad. [i:f83179ce31] High Art[/i:f83179ce31] (1998) ends with the overdose death of Ally Sheedy's lesbian character. [i:f83179ce31] Mulholland Drive[/i:f83179ce31] (2001) ends with a lesbian having her ex-girlfriend murdered then turning a gun on herself.

As for television, recent examples of lesbians dying horribly or being evil have appeared in literally hundreds of TV episodes. Just a few of the shows that have perpetuated this discouraging clich are: [i:f83179ce31] 24, All My Children, Babylon 5, Dark Angel, ER, Law & Order, Millennium, Northern Exposure, NYPD Blue, The Practice, Quantum Leap, Xena: Warrior Princess,[/i:f83179ce31] and, now, very sadly, [i:f83179ce31] Buffy the Vampire Slayer.[/i:f83179ce31]

The impression that these films and TV programs leave, through blatant moralizing and/or thoughtless exploitation, is that lesbian relationships end in death and misery. There are no happy endings. This is the image that has been driven into the psyche of gay people. There is no hope for you. You cannot be happy. This message has also reinforced the bigotry of others by either leading people to believe that gays are evil and worthy of nothing but hatred, or by alluding that they are sick and pitiable, in desperate need of conversion and curing.

[b:f83179ce31] 3) How does Tara's death and Willow's descent into vengeance fall into the "Dead/Evil Lesbian Clich?"[/b:f83179ce31]

Well, for starters, Tara meets a typically violent end as a bullet rips through her chest and showers Willow with her blood. Worse, her death causes Willow to go crazy with grief and go on an evil rampage that includes sadistic torture, mutilation and murder, followed by an attempt to destroy the world. It's a two-for-one lesbian clich package, complete with one dead lesbian and one evil lesbian.

The setting and events leading to Tara's death also fall horribly into the storied lesbian clich. One of the most overused features of the lesbian clich is that the death is generally directly associated with the act of lesbian sex. It usually occurs soon after a real or implied sex scene in order to cement the connection. Tara died at the end of an episode in which she spent practically the entire time having sex with Willow; further, she died immediately after a scene of heavy sexual flirtation and beside the bed in which she and Willow made love.

What is even more damaging is that BtVS writers chose to kill Tara and change Willow and Tara's sex scenes from metaphorical to literal within the same episode. Up until "Seeing Red," all of Willow and Tara's sexual activity had been shrouded in magical metaphor. A sensual magic spell that ended with Willow writhing in orgasmic ecstasy was used to illustrate their first time making love in Season Four's "Who Are You?" Tara magically floated above the couple's bed as Willow hovered out-of-frame in Season Six's "Once More, With Feeling." They never kissed and barely touched during those "love" scenes. But "Seeing Red" removed all magical metaphors and placed Willow and Tara naked in bed together for the very first time. Viewers finally saw them behave like the straight couples on the show...and immediately one died and one turned evil. This seems to say that Willow and Tara were safe as long as things were metaphorical and hidden, but the moment their sex life was brought out in the open, there was hell to pay.

Tara could have been shot in the garden (like Buffy), but she was killed in the bedroom after partaking in the cardinal sin of lesbian sex. This has been done over and over again in film and TV with devastating results, it didn't need to be repeated on BtVS no matter what the writers claim their intention was.

Compare this to the deaths of straight characters in BtVS - such as Jenny, Angel, Joyce, and Buffy (both times). Not a single one occurs after a real or implied sexual act. In the cases where sex is even mentioned in passing much earlier in the episode, as with Jenny (who was looking forward to her reconciliation with Giles) and Joyce (who was finally dating again), there is no consummation; the deaths therefore cannot possibly be viscerally felt as punishments for acts performed. In fact, they work from the opposite emotional angle - disappointment at an anticipation of something good, unfulfilled.

A closer cousin to the post-sex fates of Willow and Tara might be what happened to Angel, who turned evil immediately after sex. It's interesting to note that in that case, the writers explicitly said that they were doing that deliberately in order to make a point about men who seem to change for the worse after sex. Which means that Tara's post-sex death happened in a show where the connection between sex itself and bad things following sex had already been deliberately established and discussed. However the scene was intended, the show's own structure and history would seem to reinforce the notion that Tara and Willow were punished for having lesbian sex. But, while possibly linked in theme, the negative impact of the fate of Angel and the fate of Willow and Tara are wildly divergent. Angel's fate as a straight white male was not an oft-repeated example of a damning and hurtful clich, but rather a fresh, clever metaphor for male sexual behavior. It was a new look at an old story. Willow and Tara's fate is an old look at an old story that perpetuates a hopeless outlook for lesbians.

And what of Willow? While it is believable that this historically gentle, moral character, who also carries deep-seated insecurities and rage, would murder Warren to avenge Tara's death, her utter descent into evil is extreme and over-the-top, to say the least. Warren's murder is not a quick "crime of passion," but a prolonged stomach-turning gore-fest that climaxes in his skinning and immolation. Her thirst for blood unsatisfied, Vengeance Willow (as UPN calls her) then tries to hunt down Warren's accomplices, Andrew and Jonathan, eliminate her friends and then destroy the world. And, of course, Willow's descent immediately follows the first material, non-metaphorical sex scenes Willow and Tara have been allowed.

Vengeance Willow's total meltdown mixed with its unfortunate sexual timing strains credibility and, unfortunately, falls head-first into the unstable, evil lesbian clich. Was, as so many lesbian clich movies have suggested, Willow's love for Tara so extreme, unhealthy and twisted as to cause her to try to destroy everything and everyone? And Willow's magic, once the show's primary metaphor for lesbian sex and love, was instead in Season Six portrayed as dark, addictive, and leading to insanity. The message--unintended as it may have been--of this storyline: Lesbian love is an intense, dangerous thing. Death and destruction awaits.

Thank god Xander is there to talk Willow down from her destructive path with anecdotes about yellow crayons, or who knows what would have happened? A man saves the world from the crazy lesbian. What a horrible, painful and insulting way for Willow and Tara's relationship to end.

[b:f83179ce31] 4) But how can one character death, even of a beloved character, really add to the impact of such a clich?[/b:f83179ce31]

But it does, even if it's hard to see when looking at any given single example. Practically any example of the lesbian clich, or in fact any kind of clich, will tend to sound like crying wolf when presented by itself in the absence of other examples - especially when the show being talked about is reasonably sophisticated and not a clear case of pure exploitation. A clich doesn't become a clich in a vacuum, and it doesn't have to seem like some kind of obvious, monstrously bad piece of writing. A clich becomes a clich when the weight of hundreds and hundreds of previous examples make any given example another piece in the pile. We're not pointing to dead Tara and saying, look how obvious a clich this was. We're pointing to a pile of hundreds and hundreds of dead and evil film, TV, theater, and novel lesbians and saying, why add Willow and Tara to that pile?

[b:f83179ce31] 5) It's well known that Mutant Enemy is far from homophobic. Shouldn't you just be grateful that they gave you gay characters at all? Doesn't the positive role model of a same-sex couple that Willow and Tara have provided for two years make up for how things ended?[/b:f83179ce31]

We are grateful. We are SO grateful. And we've said so every chance we've gotten. We've written letters to Mutant Enemy and Fox praising and thanking the show for giving gay people, especially questioning youth, two beautiful, caring lesbian characters that they could relate to. We've encouraged the media to pay attention to and praise the Willow/Tara storyline. We've begged friends and family to watch the show. Some of us have been lucky enough to meet Mr. Whedon, Ms. Hannigan, Ms. Benson, and other Mutant Enemy staffers and tell them how much this storyline means to the gay community and how much we appreciate their efforts.

Willow and Tara have indeed provided a role model which was nearly unique in prime-time television, and have served as an example of the beneficial effects such a positive image can have. Numerous letters have been written by gay teens and adults detailing how the existence of Willow and Tara have helped them find hope for the future, come out of the closet, or become comfortable with their orientation.

However, rather than making up for Tara's death, it actually just made it worse. People placed their trust in the Willow/Tara relationship, and came to regard it as a rare safe place where they could return to renew their hopes; a fairly natural thing to do in light of the fact that there were so few other places they could go to do so. So when the Willow/Tara relationship collapsed into the same clich of death and insanity as so many others had before, hope and trust that had built up over years was crushed. The message seemed to be that there is no hope, no safe place, and that the happiness was a lie - death and derangement will always be the end result.

[b:f83179ce31] 6) So did ME simply do this unwittingly, not knowing about the evil/dead lesbian clich?[/b:f83179ce31]

But they did know. Sadly, this is part of why Tara's death hurts so much. We talked to Mutant Enemy and they talked back. They said they understood where we were coming from and that they knew how important the Willow/Tara storyline was in social context. They, on their own without prodding, publicly claimed knowledge of the "Dead/Evil Lesbian Clich" and repeatedly made statements indicating that they would never do it. Here are some ME quotes regarding Tara's future on the show:

[i:f83179ce31] Doug Petrie[/i:f83179ce31] (Fandom Shop 2/21/00): "Willow and Tara are going to have a good, happy, satisfying relationship. That's something that we're more acutely aware of and we definitely don't want to touch on 'being a lesbian is bad.' We've all seen shows where if you have any kind of gay tendencies, you must be killed or made to suffer for no other reason other than you're gay. We're hyper aware of that, so we're more predisposed to have things work out for Willow and Tara. In fact, if Tara were a guy, I would predict a near 100 per cent chance of a breakup for Willow. The fact that Tara is not a guy may make things work out better, because we can avoid what we feel is this old clich."

[i:f83179ce31] Joss Whedon[/i:f83179ce31] (Bronze Beta 5/24/00): "...one post from a gay or questioning teen saying the show helped them is worth six hundred hate letters...Here's the word: Tara's not gonna disappear. She's part of the show, part of Willow's life."

[i:f83179ce31] Joss Whedon[/i:f83179ce31] (E! Online 5/01): "I have no plans to send Tara anywhere. Amber (Benson) and Alyson (Hannigan) have such great chemistry; they're so great together, and they're very romantic together. We have terrible, terrible things to do to them because they're on my show, so needless to say, horrible things will happen--but as a couple, I think they work really well. As for Amber, even if she weren't going out with Willow, I think she's become a big part of the heart of the show."

[i:f83179ce31] Steven DeKnight[/i:f83179ce31] (Bronze Beta 1/25/02): "As for Tara getting killed--OVER MY DEAD BODY!"

[i:f83179ce31] Drew Greenberg[/i:f83179ce31] (Bronze Beta 4/01/02)): "Amber (Benson) and Emma (Caulfield) are both sticking around, neither one is going anywhere, so don't worry."

Besides the reassuring words of the writers, the reputation of [i:f83179ce31] Buffy the Vampire Slayer[/i:f83179ce31] itself provided great hope that "The Dead/Evil Lesbian Clich" would never touch Willow and Tara. The entire premise of BtVS is built around a shattered clich. Buffy herself was created as the antithesis of the stereotypically helpless blonde girl who is always killed by the monster in horror films. Buffy is a blonde girl who kicks the monster's ass. Up until now, BtVS has been known for its clever writers who take glee in over-turning any and all clichs. Other clichs BtVS has conquered include the "magically appearing younger sibling/cousin clich." This was brilliantly mocked when Buffy's previously unheard of little sister Dawn suddenly appeared in the midst of S5, and the oblivious Scoobies acted as though she'd been there all along. "Buffy: The Musical" overcame the silliness of the cast randomly bursting into song by making the Scoobies the unwilling participants of a musical production forced upon them by a demon. This mocked the "novelty episode clich" by openly winking at the conceit of the ploy and making it a plot point to be solved.

Mutant Enemy knows clichs. They knew all about the "Dead/Evil Lesbian Clich" by their own admission and their own experience.

[i:f83179ce31] Update[/i:f83179ce31]: During a Succubus Club radio interview on 5/15/02, ME producer David Fury admitted the following: "[b:f83179ce31] In retrospect, I can see the clich .[/b:f83179ce31] That was not our intent, we wanted to show (Willow and Tara) together and happy. We dramatized them being back together. [b:f83179ce31] It created the impression in a lot of people's mind that the event of her death was linked to them having sex.[/b:f83179ce31] I do understand it, I say oh yeah. It was not intended. We make mistakes."

While it is gratifying to hear Mr. Fury not only admit the existence of the clich , but also that the Willow/Tara storyline falls into it (something Mr. DeKnight was unwilling to do), it is disappointing that he claims ME can only see this in retrospect. It is clear from ME's previous statements on the subject that they were well aware of the clich [i:f83179ce31] before[/i:f83179ce31] planning Tara's demise. They were aware of it, they indicated they would not repeat it...then they did it anyway.

[i:f83179ce31] Update[/i:f83179ce31]: During a Succubus Club radio interview on 5/22/02, ME writer Jane Espenson stated: "I am very very sorry about Tara, really. We really feel bad. [b:f83179ce31] It is very possible that we did a bad thing. And I don't want to completely exonerate us.[/b:f83179ce31] It [i:f83179ce31] is[/i:f83179ce31] possible."

First David Fury admits he can see the clich of Tara's death, then Jane Espenson admits that ME may have done "a bad thing" by killing Tara. Slight progress.

[b:f83179ce31] 7) Former BtVS writer Steven DeKnight clearly said that Tara wasn't killed because she was gay, but that she was a "plot device" in order to hurt Willow. He said she was treated as a "real person," and that's all you can really ask for. Doesn't that nullify the clich?[/b:f83179ce31]

No. First of all, how can Tara be both a mere "plot device" - a tool to get at Willow - and also be a "real person"? That is a contradiction. They can't have it both ways. Is Anya only a "plot device" to get to Xander? No. She has her own storyline and Emma Caulfield is a full regular in the credits. Is Spike a mere "plot device" to get at Buffy? No. Storyline. Credits. Amber Benson was the only Scooby significant other kept out of the credits. Tara was sent away most of S6 and not given an individual storyline, only to be brought back as a "plot device" to make Willow go crazy. From this, one can only conclude that ME didn't view Tara as a "real person" at all. She was a disposable object and she was treated as such.

Did ME kill Tara [i:f83179ce31] because[/i:f83179ce31] she was gay? No. But intentions don't matter, results do. The sad fact is that most lesbian couples meet horrible ends in films and television and Willow and Tara met a horrible end, too. They were the [b:f83179ce31] FIRST[/b:f83179ce31] and [b:f83179ce31] ONLY[/b:f83179ce31] long-term lesbian couple on network television and now they are horribly lost. There is no other couple to replace them. ME killed the unicorn for a cheap plot device they swore they were above. All the straight main characters survived and have a chance for happiness just as they have each and every season of BtVS (Angel was brought back). Only the gay ones are dead/evil. As usual. Hence, the clich. [b:f83179ce31] All of the gay characters to ever grace Sunnydale - Larry, Tara, Willow, and apparently Andrew - have ended up either dead or evil. All of them. One hundred percent.[/b:f83179ce31] Also, the only two characters whose behaviour was laced with bisexual undertones, Faith and VampWillow, are also mysteriously dead and/or evil.

[b:f83179ce31] 8) Wouldn't you agree that the story is more important than any of the characters on Buffy? Why then would you object to killing off Tara if that's what was needed to advance Willow's story?[/b:f83179ce31]

Writing is about making choices. Mutant Enemy had plenty of opportunities to send Willow down her dark magic path before "Seeing Red," and they chose not to use them. They could have, for example, had Willow pulled into darkness by her own pride and/or her own insecurity. Willow was clearly headed down this path early in Season Six when she raised Buffy from the dead, threatened Giles, and fought with Tara. But the writers chose to change directions and occupy her with a physical magical "addiction" until May sweeps when they could kill Tara and send her on a quest for vengeance. Mutant Enemy deliberately chose the clich when plenty of other possibilities were available to them. Not to mention that Willow's Season Six vengeance storyline is merely an extreme retread of Willow's actions in Season Five's "Tough Love," in which she attacked Glory for brain-sucking Tara. Necessary forward progression? That's very arguable.

[b:f83179ce31] 9) Joyce and Jenny died and didn't come back. Why is Tara's death any different just because she's a lesbian? Plus, plenty of Straight White Male characters have died on BtVS, too.[/b:f83179ce31]

Yes, Joyce and Jenny died, but 1) they weren't Scoobies and we are discussing W/T's treatment as compared to the other core Scoobies, B/S/X/D/A, 2) they were adults whose deaths were foreshadowed and given moral reason (Jenny) and great meaning (Joyce), 3) Robia LaMorte had personal reasons for leaving the show, Amber Benson has said she wanted to stay, 4) Joyce's death was planned and carefully laid out since S1 in order to provide a lesson to the entire Scooby Gang, Tara's death was decided upon last year because it was the easiest way to hurt Willow, it was a means to an end, there was no moral reason and certainly no meaning, 5) they weren't minorities.

So, Joyce and Jenny are not relevant to the discussion, but just to be thorough, let's discuss the impact of their loss for a moment. They died and who was left in Sunnydale to have straight sex and pursue the right of happiness? Who? Oh, that's right. Buffy, Xander, Anya, Dawn, Giles, Oz, Riley, Angel, etc, etc, etc.

Now let's kill Tara. Who's left to have gay sex and pursue the right of happiness? Who? Oh, Willow, the cliched crazy, bereft lesbian who will [i:f83179ce31] never be happy again[/i:f83179ce31] because she's been tormented more than any Scooby in the history of the show. After all, no other core Scooby kid has permanently lost their significant other to death. Tara and Willow are unique in their torment.

What about all those white male vamps and villains who have died? Again, we are discussing core Scoobies here, but, for the sake of argument, Straight White Male (SWMs) characters aren't minorities. You kill a white male character, there are thousands waiting to take his place on BtVS and every other show on television. According to the Children Now "2001 Prime Time Diversity Report," gay and lesbian characters make up less than 2 percent of all characters on television. Of that 2 percent, 92 percent are gay men, meaning that [b:f83179ce31] only 0.16 percent of all TV characters are lesbians.[/b:f83179ce31]

Actually, that's now 0.16 percent minus Tara.

There are so many SWM's (and SWF's) on television that a variety of stories are being told about them. Some characters are good, some are bad, some poor, some rich, happy, depressed, single, married, dead, alive. You name a situation and there is a straight white character available to represent it. That's simply not true of gay characters. There are so few in film and TV and the bad stereotypes are still so ingrained, that positive characters such as Willow and Tara are simply precious. To lose W/T, who are the ONLY long-term lesbian couple on network television is simply devastating. To lose them to the "Dead/Evil Lesbian Clich" is nauseating and demoralizing.

[b:f83179ce31] 10) Everyone on BtVS has a miserable life. Aren't Tara and Willow just getting equal treatment?[/b:f83179ce31]

A lot of people, including Steven DeKnight during his 5/8/02 Succubus Club interview, claim that Xander or Anya or anyone else on the show could have been killed off, so all is fair. Well, anyone [b:f83179ce31] could[/b:f83179ce31] have been killed but they [b:f83179ce31] weren't[/b:f83179ce31]. There are five straight major characters and two gay ones on BtVS. Only the gay ones are dead and evil.

This "would've, could've" argument is similar to the one parodied in Question #1. It is a glib answer that, by its design, actually answers nothing while attempting to deflect responsibility. The killing of a TV character is not a random act of God, it is the result of a [i:f83179ce31] choice[/i:f83179ce31] by the writing staff. ME is arguing that every character had an equal chance of being killed off, but that is not true. The fact is that, because Amber Benson was the only Scooby significant other not to be given regular status in the credits, the cards were unfairly stacked against her from the beginning. It appears that Tara never stood a chance, despite ME's protests to the contrary. Her second-class contract status seems to indicate that she was always a marked woman. After all, why pay an actor for a full 22-episodes when you're going to kill them off? Was this because Amber's character was gay? Of course not. However, appearances are everything. And the fact remains that the actor who portrayed the gay significant other was, for whatever reason, treated differently than the actors that played the straight ones, therefore nearly guaranteeing that the gay character's future on the show was more limited than that of the straight characters.

It is worth noting that Seth Green, who played Willow's former boyfriend Oz, was a series regular. Could he have been killed off? Sure. And since he was a full member of the cast, his death would not have appeared pre-destined. As it stands, Seth wanted off the show and Oz was written out, not killed off. Amber Benson was brought in as Willow's girlfriend, was never made a regular, has said she did not want off the show, but was killed off. Equal treatment? Not so much.

Appearances. Are. Everything.

As for equal treatment in the area of misery, let's compare BtVS's two longest-running couples, Xander and Anya and Willow and Tara. What has happened to Xander and Anya over the last two years? They hooked up in a direct, no angst fashion; they enjoyed a very literal, non-metaphorical sex life; they did research; they got engaged; they saved the world; they planned their wedding; then Xander left Anya at the altar. Not that much angst for X/A until their ill-fated wedding. In fact, nothing happened to them at all.

How about Willow and Tara? Their initial get-together was an angsty triangle involving Oz; their affections were mostly metaphorical and hidden; there was the big "Is Tara a demon?" scare; followed by Tara's four-episode brain-suck; they saved the world; next Willow became a magic addict; then Tara left and they were separated for most of the season; finally Tara came back and she and Willow engage in their very first implied (though not overt like the straight couples) on screen sex and Tara immediately gets her heart splattered all over Willow's shirt.

Conclusion: Not only did W/T suffer more as a couple, Tara did not survive. Anya did. Xander and Anya could still get back together. Willow and Tara's chances died with Tara.

As for Buffy, who would have thought that in Sunnydale, you can sleep with not one vampire, but two, and STILL not be in as much danger as sleeping with another woman? Even in a horror universe filled with monsters, the surest way for a Scooby to get killed or go evil is to be gay (results so far point to a 100% chance of it). Some things just never, ever change.

All the straight characters on the show are alive to seek happiness in Season 7. The gay characters are either dead or utterly bereft with no chance for happiness.

[i:f83179ce31] No chance for happiness.[/i:f83179ce31] The clich strikes again.

[b:f83179ce31] 11) Other minority groups have suffered on this show. All of the, say, Gypsy characters have died. Why isn't anyone claiming the show is unfair to Gypsies?[/b:f83179ce31]

Well, actually, given that not only are all the Gypsy characters dead (Jenny, Enosh), but practically all the black characters have been killed (Kendra, Forrest, Mr. Trick, the slayer from the seventies), as have the vanishingly few Asian characters (like the Chinese slayer), and Native American characters (like Hus), not to mention that Hispanic characters have been practically nonexistent (has there been anyone but Tito?) - in a show set in Southern California! - in fact it's pretty reasonable to question the show's treatment of minorities in general. In fact, after all the bodies are cleared away, the only significant minority characters we seem to be left with are one Jewish lesbian who has turned evil, and one black character on a different show on another network.

Of course, as has been mentioned previously, there have been deaths of non-minority characters on the show as well, but a glance at the cast list is enough to demonstrate that the percentage rate of this hasn't been anywhere close to as high, and the number left after the deaths is, well, plentiful rather than zero. While it is doubtful, once again, that Mutant Enemy is being deliberately racist, it isn't a stretch to say that they've been thoughtlessly perpetuating the general dead/nonexistent minority clich in the same way that they've been perpetuating the dead/evil lesbian clich. Pointing out that the show has killed off its Gypsies, etc. as well doesn't undercut our point . . . it just adds another dimension to it.

[b:f83179ce31] 12) What are the societal effects of the dead/evil lesbian clich?[/b:f83179ce31]

The most visible effect is generally on gay and lesbian teenagers. It is not unusual for gay and lesbian teenagers to be trying to come to terms with their sexual identity in an overtly or subtly hostile environment. And if that is indeed the case, any gay peers are frequently either closeted or still grappling with their identity themselves, leaving many gay teens pretty much bereft of anyone they can talk to comfortably about these issues; and any gay adults they might meet are likely to be either closeted or discreet, leaving them without role models as well (bear in mind that gays and lesbians are one of the few minority groups whose parents are not necessarily members of the same minority.)

So, the gay and lesbian teenagers who are already the most likely to be at risk as a result of dealing with bigotry, and the most likely to feel completely alone, are also the ones most likely to have to draw their images of gay life from the media, for lack of any direct sources. And what do they find there? A usually unvarying, depressingly bleak portrait of mental illness and inevitable violent death. The pervasiveness of the clich has left the media largely bereft of any positive same-sex couples. So it's not exactly reassuring for teens who are possibly already depressed, confused, frightened, or all three, and it can have a catastrophic effect on how they feel about themselves and their future.

More generally, the dead/evil lesbian clich in the media sends out a message, whether unconscious or overt, that homosexual sex, love, and impulses are wrong, deranged, and will be punished. It isn't going out on a limb to say that this is likely to increase the incidence of homophobia in society, and make gays and lesbians of all ages feel unwelcome and disliked.

[b:f83179ce31] 13) Willow and Tara finally got some on screen intimacy, aren't you at least happy about that?[/b:f83179ce31]

Absolutely! We applaud Mutant Enemy for pushing this issue with first The WB and then UPN. Willow and Tara's relationship was beautifully written and portrayed. It was historic in its longevity, sensitivity and sensuality. However, the mere fact that ME needed to fight for intimate scenes between W/T in the 21st Century should tell people that gay characters are desperately needed on TV and killing them off not only sends a horrible message, it wastes a golden opportunity to continue to make a difference. Despite all of ME's pushing, Willow and Tara were only blatantly intimate in their last episode together. Even then, no actual sex scene was shown. The one and only truly sexual moment--Willow ducking her head under the sheet and Tara moaning--was cut from "Seeing Red" by UPN. (Although the network had no problem showing Willow skinning Warren.) Compare that to Buffy/Riley and Buffy/Spike where there were numerous graphic sex scenes in and out of bed that included full pelvic thrusts, groans, etc. And sadly, as mentioned earlier, Willow and Tara's intimacy led directly into Tara's murder, which is an unfortunate component of the "Dead/Evil Lesbian Clich." It would have been much preferable to completely separate Tara's death from any sexual acts.

Equality? Ummmm. No.

[b:f83179ce31] 14) Doesn't the attitude that lesbians shouldn't die make them unfairly sacrosanct and not subject to the problems that other characters face?[/b:f83179ce31]

There are actually a fair number of reasons that this is a specious argument. For one thing, what's wrong with keeping them sacrosanct, anyway? We've had enough dead lesbians in the past, is it too much to ask that a show which prides itself on being ground-breaking and clich-subverting actually keep the lesbian couple alive for once?

In addition, the lives of several characters are clearly already considered untouchable; none of the core Scoobies is going to die permanently. Adding another to this list therefore wouldn't particularly mess with the show's established mode of operation. Heck, "don't kill Dawn" was practically the Season 5 motto.

Also, a character being kept alive and not evil is a very different thing from saying a character is immune to trouble, as the entire show has adequately demonstrated. Simply keeping a character alive is hardly making them permanently smiley and happy.

But finally - most people arguing against the lesbian clich are not even really arguing that Tara can't die! The argument is simply that she shouldn't die in a clichd manner. If Tara had gotten to die at the end of a story arc that made her death meaningful, important, and true to her character, there would be a lot of sad fans, but most of them would not be enraged the way we are now. But ME chose to have Tara shot randomly immediately after sex in a way that drives her lover insane and makes her evil.

[b:f83179ce31] 15) Are W/T fans mad at Steven DeKnight for writing "Seeing Red?"[/b:f83179ce31]

Absolutely not! It was a beautifully written episode that displayed some of the sweetest, sexiest Willow and Tara moments ever. It was not his decision to kill off Tara. It was Joss Whedon's. What upset some W/T fans is that Mr. DeKnight (and other ME writers) claimed that Tara would not die this season. After Tara was killed - in Mr. DeKnight's very own episode - fans wanted to know why he lied to them. In his Succubus Club interview, he claimed that he [b:f83179ce31] had[/b:f83179ce31] to lie to protect spoilers and that fans shouldn't have believed him. [b:f83179ce31] Mr. DeKnight did not have to lie.[/b:f83179ce31] No one at ME had to lie. A simple "no comment" would have sufficed. Interestingly, even though Amber Benson was aware throughout Season Six that Tara was going to be killed, she never lied about it and she never let the spoiler slip. This despite the fact that both the media and fans constantly asked her about her character's future. She was polite, respectful and appropriately vague.

Lying isn't a necessity, it's a choice.

Tara attracted many fans who are marginalized in society because they are shy or gay or stuttered or all three. More than any other character on the show, her fans were a sensitive, gentle group, many of whom found solace in Tara and W/T that they couldn't find anywhere else. For ME, through lies, to bolster false hope about the fate of a character that meant so much to people just so they could splatter her blood onto Willow's shirt, was especially cruel. This was not the death of any character. It was the death of a character that represented hope to thousands of people. Great care was required. Great insensitivity was shown.

[b:f83179ce31] 16) Why did some Tara fans object to Amber Benson being in the credits of "Seeing Red"? Wasn't that a nice gesture?[/b:f83179ce31]

Normally, it would have been wonderful to see Amber Benson in the opening credits. Her fans have been begging for her to be a regular for the last two seasons. She is the ONLY significant other of a Scooby to not have been made a regular. Her omission had become glaring. Unfortunately, Amber was included in the credits in the very episode Tara was murdered. Mr. DeKnight admitted that this was intended both as a goodbye present to Amber and to be "mischievous" to the fans. But why wasn't she included all season long like all the other Scooby significant others such as Anya, Riley and Oz? Too little, too late.

Furthermore, seeing how fans were already going to be shocked and hurt by the ending of "Seeing Red," ME did not need to heighten the pain by "mischievously" adding Amber to the credits, building false hope to make their plan of devastation more complete. It was a mean and crass move.

[b:f83179ce31] 17) Mutant Enemy writers have said that Amber Benson may come back, but not necessarily as Tara. What if she does? Aren't you going to look silly for causing such a stir?[/b:f83179ce31]

After indicating they were above falling into lesbian clichs and then leaping gleefully, head-first into not one, but two of them, Mutant Enemy should not be surprised by the reaction of the gay community. We would, of course, love to have Tara back (note: that's TARA, not just Amber Benson, as this is about the character, not the actress, lovely as she may be). However, nothing is going to change the fact that ME chose to perpetuate extremely hurtful clichs that have far-reaching social consequences, lied about not killing Tara this season, and, according to Mr. DeKnight, purposely tried to make the loss hurt more by putting Amber Benson in the credits for the episode of Tara's death. Nothing will change the fact that seeing Willow covered in Tara's blood made an infamously vocal group of people that hated Tara because she was gay and viciously maligned both the character and Amber Benson the moment she appeared on screen in Season Four, very, very happy. ME fed W/T fans to the wolves - wolves they claimed to disdain - for what amounted to a weak three-episode Vengeance Willow arc. That's really sad and pretty hard to forget.

Real damage has been caused, no matter what the future holds.

[b:f83179ce31] 18) In conclusion, what does Tara's death ultimately mean?[/b:f83179ce31]

It means that the gay community has been hurt and misled...[i:f83179ce31] again.[/i:f83179ce31] It means that perpetuating a tired, horribly clichd storyline was ultimately more important to ME than keeping their word. That hurting Willow above all the other Scoobies was more important than being socially responsible. That killing Tara anywhere but in the bedroom thus downplaying the lesbian clich, required too much effort and apparently would have meant giving up too many ratings points. That giving all the homophobes, Tara-haters and Amber-bashers (a segment ME supposedly holds in great disdain) exactly what they've wanted since Tara first appeared was preferable to thinking a little harder and coming up with another story solution.

It means that, just like all those old (and new) movies that ended without hope for gay characters, so ends this season of BtVS. Mutant Enemy can say that it could have happened to anyone in Sunnydale all it wants. Sure, it could have. But it didn't. [b:f83179ce31] It happened to the lesbians...as freakin' usual.[/b:f83179ce31]

Long live the clich.

~[i:f83179ce31] "The most provocative thing that any piece of fiction could do is show two gay people living together happily ever after." Gore Vidal[/i:f83179ce31]~
Willowlicious
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby AutumnT » Sun May 12, 2002 9:50 am

[quote:e3c71ffdfc][b:e3c71ffdfc][i:e3c71ffdfc]Quote:[/i:e3c71ffdfc][/b:e3c71ffdfc]
Mulholland Falls ends with a lesbian having her ex-girlfriend murdered then turning a gun on herself.
[/quote:e3c71ffdfc] It's Mullholand Drive, isn't it?
AutumnT
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby Willowlicious » Sun May 12, 2002 10:01 am

Yes, it is, Autumn. The dangers of late night cutting and pasting. :) Thanks.

Amy
Willowlicious
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby AutumnT » Sun May 12, 2002 10:07 am

To those who worked on this thank you. It's brilliant. It speaks for us. And most of all it's important. I can't tell you how much I appreciate it.
AutumnT
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby tommo » Sun May 12, 2002 10:10 am

Ah, this is fantastic. Huge thanks to the people who worked on it; namely Amy and Kyraroc. You've managed to apply this wonderfully to the current situation. Calm, clear, concise. Excellent.
tommo
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby Wiccagrrl313 » Sun May 12, 2002 10:16 am

Thank you, Willowlicious and Kyraroc and everyone else who contributed to this. It's wonderful, and will, I think, be very useful. Very well put.
Wiccagrrl313
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby roamin » Sun May 12, 2002 10:36 am

Good job on this. I would like to encourage the authors to post links to this on (or give us permission to) other boards whenever the issue comes up.

When the news about Tara's imminent demise first broke I must admit (and don't shoot me for this) that I initially thought the kittens were over reacting. I was willing to buy the artistic freedom, equal treatment, she's their character, ME has always been our friend argument. But I read the many well reasoned arguments and you won be over. I think that if people take the time to read the FAQ maybe they too will understand why the Kittens are so frustrated, and why we find the manner in which they have killed off Tara and pushed Willow off the deep end so offensive. As I told one friend, "If 100% of the straight male characters on Buffy were either killed off or evil, the press and everyone else would be screaming about what a male bashing show it was."
roamin
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby June Leigh » Sun May 12, 2002 10:42 am

Awesome FAQ Willowlicious and Kyraroc. Do you want to keep the spoilers about Xander saving Willow with crayon talk if this is going to be in the non-spoiler section? Wow, great job.
June Leigh
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby BBOvenGuy » Sun May 12, 2002 10:54 am

This is absolutely wonderful. Congrats to everyone who had a hand in it! :bounce

I'm sure we can find more Mutant Enemy quotes. I know there are several from Marti out there. One in particular stands out in my head - something about "Don't worry, Willow and Tara are just going through a little trouble right now."

The other thing that's been on my mind is the fact that Mutant Enemy has been justifying their actions because they say Tara's death advanced Willow's story. What bugs me about that is that it [b:66a75de058] doesn't[/b:66a75de058] advance Willow's story. In fact it sends Willow down exactly the same path she went down last year and completely destroys the entire story arc she had been on all season. I'm not quite sure how to express that yet, though, and it may be too peripheral to the thread. Just trying to add my own meager contribution to the mix... :shy
BBOvenGuy
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby emma peel » Sun May 12, 2002 11:16 am

That was absolutely brilliant!! Kudos to Willowlicious and Kyraroc on a fantastic FAQ written in such an amazingly short length of time.

It might sway some folks into "getting it," the ones who won't get it never will anyway.

One minor point re: THE CHILDREN'S HOUR: I think instead of "meets a horrible death" you should state Shirley Maclaine "commits suicide by hanging" would be a little more effective,IMHO.

Thanks so much!!

Janice
emma peel
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby kins78 » Sun May 12, 2002 11:25 am

This is a jewel. Amazing job Willowlicious and Kyraroc! Thank you. I received a response to an email I sent Kitty and Candy regarding the SDK interview that, well, just made me even more hurt and angry. I will email them the link to this FAQ as soon as it's ready.

Thanks again!
kins78
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby Willowlicious » Sun May 12, 2002 11:34 am

[b:a6072f954b] Emma Peel[/b:a6072f954b], thanks for the input. I made the change. In truth, I couldn't remember off the top of my head how she killed herself and hadn't gotten around to looking it up yet. Thanks!

[b:a6072f954b] Bob[/b:a6072f954b], thanks for the kind words. Please, if you have anything you want to add feel free. If you want to add a whole section (although, damn it's big) or just want to insert a few sentences here and there, send them to me and I'll pop them right in. You're always full of wisdom and analysis. Help! Please! :)

[b:a6072f954b] Kins78[/b:a6072f954b], don't you worry. This was put on "rush order" specifically to get it over to the Succubus Club well in advance of Fury's interview. I hope to have the whole thing finalized by late tonight or tomorrow at the latest.

Amy
(who is trying to constructively focus years of pent up frustration and anger)
Willowlicious
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby Hasu No Hana » Sun May 12, 2002 11:38 am

Brilliantly written. Outstanding!

Willowlicious and Kyraroc, a job well done.

Thanks!
:D
Hasu No Hana
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby DianaBouvier99 » Sun May 12, 2002 11:47 am

I know you said not send it out but I'm in a very small writing group and none of them understand the lesbian cliche'. I'm going to direct them to the Kitten Board and this thread.

Goddess Bless I am still so angry!
DianaBouvier99
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby The Next Tara Maclay » Sun May 12, 2002 12:00 pm

[img:8ce4e85b67]http://www.smilies-world.de/Smilies/Smilies_klein_1/Teter_toter.gif[/img:8ce4e85b67] Who ever made this, Woohoo!!!![img:8ce4e85b67]http://www.smilies-world.de/Smilies/Smilies_klein_1/icecream.gif[/img:8ce4e85b67]
The Next Tara Maclay
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby superzonic(d) » Sun May 12, 2002 12:12 pm

well played FAQ.
Certainly as someone who was a teen in the 80s wasteland of far and few between queer role models, I can understand the concern here for a younger population (gay and straight) who desperately need healthy pictures of multifaceted gays and lesbians living (emphasis of *living*), loving, working, laughing, fighting, and doing all the pedestrian things that make us a (no more or less important) part of the human race. Being, uh, de-marginalized is a long and important process and there's no skipping over it. Right now our pain is sharp, it is valid and I am so very glad to live in a time when this dialogue (or diatribe as some Bronzers might deem it) is happening.
We've come a long way, Baby, though some Kittens may fear otherwise. In the last decade I've seen hundreds of positive and loving portrayals of lesbians on TV and in film that rarely felt as if they were written for the male gaze (unlike the smattering of portrayals in the 80s). I hold on to them and wistfully ponder what it would have been to grow up a decade later. Although i rage a bit at the apparent callousness in killing half of our favorite couple, i can't help but look for a positive resolution...its been foreshadowed and it feels right to me. The care with which the writers have built this relationship is just too great,i dunno, for her to be chucked so tidily. Yeah i know, its not your point but... Joss and Co. (mostly men) have done a remarkable job creating this couple in all their layers and as i mentioned, for an audience beyond the male gaze. I just have to expect tremendous things to come for the girls. I dont have to swallow the requisite spoonfed lies if i refuse to open the hangar. And i beg you, do save the licking flames for when and if i am proven wrong, K?
Anywho, I'm gonna wrap this up but i want to thank everyone for a place to mope and tear my hair, get my shits and giggles, cartwheel for aired W/T smoochies, and not the least of importance, a place to pick up some tasty smutfic (or character development as i like to call it).
THANK YOU ALL.
In Joss i trust and on Kittens i lean.

Faith,
Amanda

A few (mainstream and indie - no comment on their quality) movies with GoG (who *LIVE*) action & happy endings for Kittens who need to rent one these days: Show Me Love, Election, Sticky Fingers of Time, Bound, Dr. T & the Women, When Night is Falling, Being John Malkovich, Desert Hearts, Entre Nous...ah thats enough for tonight.
superzonic(d)
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby sam7777 » Sun May 12, 2002 12:47 pm

Thanks for putting this up. It clearly and intelligently articulates the Kitten Board's position. It won't change minds already decided but the effort to educate others on this hurtful cliche is worth a hundred hateful posts to paraphrase Mr Whedon.

Thanks again.

Editted to add: Doug Petrie quote was from Fandom Shop, Feb 21, 2000 as posted elsewhere on this boad.
sam7777
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby allenw01234 » Sun May 12, 2002 12:58 pm

So. Many people, with some justification, are upset at Mutant Enemy's use of the "lesbian cliche": Lesbians have sex, one dies, one goes insane and/or evil. To make it worse, Joss Whedon is generally accepted to have said that he would never use such a cliche.
But did he?
I was also under the impression that Joss had said that, but I wanted to see exactly what he had said, so I went looking.
I'm pretty sure that everything Joss has ever said in any semi-public forum is on the Web, especially if it concerned Willow and Tara; and yet, a fairly extensive Web search has provided no evidence that he's actually ever mentioned that particular cliche. Does anyone have a specific source? If not, I have to conclude that people have been misremembering and conflating quotes.

The closest thing I've found is an interview with Buffy writer Doug Petrie(www.anotheruniverse.com/t...2500.html)
in which he (Doug, not Joss) is quoted as follows (back in Feb. 2000, not long after Tara's appearance)):
"Willow and Tara are going to have a good, happy, satisfying
relationship," Petrie says. "That's something that we're more acutely aware of and we definitely don't want to touch on 'being a lesbian is bad.' We've all seen shows where if you have any kind of gay tendencies, you must be killed or made to suffer for no other reason other than you're gay. We're hyper aware of that, so we're more predisposed to have things work out for Willow and Tara. In fact, if Tara were a guy, I would predict a near 100 per cent chance of a breakup for Willow. The fact that Tara is not a guy may make things
work out better, because we can avoid what we feel is this old
clich."
And things did, on the whole, work out well for Willow and Tara for at least a year after that interview, until the brain-suckage thing, which was fairly short-lived.

The closest Joss quote I've been able to find is him commenting on a *different* cliche on the Bronze in Jan. 2000 (www-pub.cise.ufl.edu/cgi-...20000129):
"Marginally more seriously, Willow and Tara's relationship is definitely romantic. Thorny subject; the writers and I have had long topics about how to deal with the subject responibly, without writing a story that sounds like people spent a long time discussing how to deal with it responsibly. To me it feels just right. ALL the relationships on the show are sort of romantic (Hence the B Y O Subtext principle) and this feels like the natural next step for her. I can only promise you two things for sure: We're not going to do an ALLY or PARTY OF5 in which we promote the hell out of a same sex relationship for exploitation value that we take back by the end of the ep, and we will never have a very special Buffy where someone gets on a soapbox and... oh, I nodded off for a moment there. I just know there's a sweet story there, that would become very complicated if Oz were to show up again. Which he will."

So: Can anyone provide a better quote? Or a better idea how this apparent misapprehension got started?
allenw01234
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby BBOvenGuy » Sun May 12, 2002 1:00 pm

Here's my attempt at adding something.

[b:4e05a423ba] 5a) Wouldn't you agree that the story is more important than any of the characters on [i:4e05a423ba] Buffy[/i:4e05a423ba]? And that the story of the main characters is more important than the story of the secondary characters? Why then would you object to killing off Tara if that's what was needed to advance Willow's story?[/b:4e05a423ba]

Because killing Tara [b:4e05a423ba] doesn't[/b:4e05a423ba] advance Willow's story. If anything, it takes Willow's story right back down the same path it went last year. Something happens to Tara and Willow goes on a black magic vengeance spree. Isn't that what we saw in "Tough Love" last year? And didn't Willow supposedly learn from that experience? Apparently not. Mutant Enemy didn't advance Willow's story by killing off Tara. They made it come around full circle to where she was a year ago.

The fact is that if Joss wanted to carry Willow's magic addiction to its most extreme, he could have easily done that in the middle of the season, and without killing Tara. Willow was on the verge of going off the deep end in "Smashed" and "Wrecked," but then all of a sudden her story was flooded with obvious drug addiction symbolism that had never been there before. Drug addiction symbolism that turned out to be meaningless, since all the work Willow did while she was "in recovery" amounted to nothing once Tara was dead.

[Edited to remove the third paragraph. I'd rather use the revised one I posted below.]

****

Well, that's the first draft of it anyway. See how you like it.

As for length, I think the best thing we can do with this FAQ is use it as a resource we can draw from when we're writing other things. We should be able to pick and choose elements from it as necessary for whatever we're doing elsewhere. That's my thought, anyway.
BBOvenGuy
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby xita » Sun May 12, 2002 1:01 pm

which people are you talking about? Are you addressing someone in particular? I know I have always maintained that Petrie is the one who clearly mentioned it, so that obviously [b:90a026f601] THEY ARE ALL AWARE OF IT[/b:90a026f601] cause they talked about it. It is implied in his statement. Our beef with Joss has been that he had insisted Tara is essential and that he has taken credit for the social benefits of a positive lesbian relationship but is now seemingly ready to wash his hands of any negative impact.
xita
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby relativegirl » Sun May 12, 2002 1:08 pm

2 minutes, 32 seconds = the time elapsed between W/T last sexual contact (the kiss/smoosh) and Tara's death.

35 seconds = additional time elapsed before Willow turns evil (eyes glowing red)

I think we have a new record here and an all-time low in the history of the lesbian cliche. :spin

Sad times indeed.
relativegirl
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby allenw01234 » Sun May 12, 2002 1:08 pm

Not you specifically, Xita; but many, many posts over the past few weeks have said some variation on "Joss promised," which got me curious enough to go investigate.
allenw01234
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby xita » Sun May 12, 2002 1:18 pm

I think Allen people are talking about Joss saying, Tara is not going anywhere, she's a big part of the heart of the show.. though that is separate from the cliche. It is part of the lies and the lack of respect for the fans and the general need to keep a certain community watching. Like I said, he has used the community and taken praise for its portrayal, even being proud.. now.. is he proud now?
xita
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby Willowlicious » Sun May 12, 2002 1:33 pm

Allen, you are right, it was more like Petrie promised and Joss has said he always defies cliches, then people like DeKnight and Greenberg actually stated that Tara was staying so it kind of got lumped into "Joss promised," but it's more like "ME very purposely lead us to believe."

I am more than willing to drop the word "promise" from the FAQ just so it can't be used as a blanket defense. I'll fix it later tonight, unless other Kittens protest.

Bob, I'll work that in, thanks!

Amy
Willowlicious
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby Sassette » Sun May 12, 2002 1:41 pm

Thanks, guys - this is awesome *G*

I just wanted to mention that section 8 is a perfect place to spell out specifically that gays are the only minority that don't share their minority status with their parents. I think the part where you're talking about the severe lack of positive role-models in RL for gay youth is incredibly important, and I think this point will just help hammer it home --- because without RL positive role-models, and no media positive role-models, gay youth are really left someplace emotionally that is, at best, confusing, and at worst, terrifying enough to lead to a variety of self-destructive behaviors. Not that anyone is blaming Buffy specifically for being the cause of the lack of gay role-models ... but they've destroyed existing role-models, and their chance to continue being a 'safe emotional place' for gay youth everywhere this show is played, and that's really just sad and disappointing - and enough to make you stand up and scream. Or, y'know :puke

-Sass
Sassette
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby BBOvenGuy » Sun May 12, 2002 1:43 pm

I think my last paragraph comes off as a bit too angry. Try this one instead:

*****

Writing is about making choices. Mutant Enemy had plenty of opportunities to send Willow down her dark magic path before "Seeing Red," and they chose not to use them. They could have had Willow pulled into darkness by her own pride and/or her own insecurity, but they chose to pull her in through her anger and thirst for vengeance instead - the [b:b99385d6a4] same[/b:b99385d6a4] anger and thirst for vengeance that they have used before. They could have chosen a story arc that was more layered and that developed more naturally, but instead they chose to send Willow on a pointless drug addiction metaphor for ten episodes and then shock her into the place where she had already been going before. In short, killing Tara wasn't the only way to advance Willow's story; it was the way Mutant Enemy [b:b99385d6a4] chose[/b:b99385d6a4]. They deliberately chose the clich when plenty of other possibilities were available to them.

*****

Better?
BBOvenGuy
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby Lindy » Sun May 12, 2002 1:46 pm

This (those? what do you say? its "questions" after all, right? hm.. [i:d708a0c8c1] *shrugs*[/i:d708a0c8c1] ) FAQ is brilliant. Thanks to those putting it together and investing time and effort! :)

I am sure it answers some questions to those who are not familiar with the subject. (That's what it's for after all.. I think I am making a non-sense post, oh well, just wanna say thanks :) )
Lindy
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby urnofosiris » Sun May 12, 2002 1:48 pm

[quote:6b406f7c3b][b:6b406f7c3b][i:6b406f7c3b]Quote:[/i:6b406f7c3b][/b:6b406f7c3b]
2 minutes, 32 seconds = the time elapsed between W/T last sexual contact (the kiss/smoosh) and Tara's death.

35 seconds = additional time elapsed before Willow turns evil (eyes glowing red)

I think we have a new record here and an all-time low in the history of the lesbian cliche.
[/quote:6b406f7c3b]

Well, whatever Joss does, Joss does best, even the worst. :|

Great FAQ Amy and Kyraroc :) , but you better be sure you have dotted all your i's or it will probably be used against you. :p
urnofosiris
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby maudmac » Sun May 12, 2002 2:51 pm

[b:076523cfdf] Amy[/b:076523cfdf], [b:076523cfdf] kyraroc[/b:076523cfdf], many, many thanks to you for this. You've truly created a community resource. This is, and will continue to be, greatly appreciated and immensely useful. Y'all rock.

A sidenote: Besides [i:076523cfdf] The Celluloid Closet[/i:076523cfdf], [i:076523cfdf] The Lavender Screen[/i:076523cfdf] by Boze Hadleigh is a good resource for those wanting more information about Hollywood's portrayal of GLBT characters and same-sex relationships. (For example, in discussing [i:076523cfdf] The Children's Hour[/i:076523cfdf], the film's ad campaign is mentioned. One thing the ads asked is, "Did nature play an ugly trick and endow them with emotions contrary to those of normal young women?")

[sarcasm] It's awesome how far we've come! [/sarcasm]
maudmac
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby ra da el » Sun May 12, 2002 2:55 pm

I'm sorry if I comment this late but I've been out for the weekend and now I'm reading this.
I've read the first six points you made out.
I can't read next points without telling you my appreciation.
I'm simply amazed. This the greatest thing I could read about cliches and W/T death.

Now I come back to read it to the end, and all the thread.

But this is something we, ohm, I'd like to post everywhere, and something I'd like to spread in the net.

Thankyou again.
ra da el
 

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