Tara and Dawn

[BBOvenGuy]

I thought it might be time to start a discussion thread about the [i:2941d7dcee]second[/i:2941d7dcee] most important relationship in Tara's life, namely the one she has with Dawn.

We've all noticed how Tara has for all practical purposes been the only "real" parent Dawn's had of late, but the bond between the two of them goes back much farther than that. All the way back to Dawn's first appearance, really, since it was in "The Real Me" that Tara went outside the Magic Box to keep Dawn company and later was worrying about her while helping set up Willow's dorm room.

I've been watching Season 5 on FX the past couple of weeks, and the bond between Tara and Dawn is something that comes up repeatedly. Tara was the one who first noticed Dawn in "Blood Ties" when Dawn came back into the house and was bleeding on the floor. Tara went straight to Dawn at the hospital after Joyce died. And of course Tara gave herself over to brain-suckage rather than give up Dawn in "Tough Love."

What do you suppose it is that brings Tara's maternal instincts out when it comes to Dawn? For a time I thought maybe Tara had a younger sister who had to be cared for when Tara's mother died, but that's not the case. Any thoughts?

Another question - what memories of Dawn do you think the monks might have planted in Tara's brain? Think back to Season 4 and imagine Dawn is there. Where in the progress of the W/T relationship would Dawn have first entered the picture? What might have happened? Any ideas?

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Remember the Kitten Board Mantra: "Joss is nuts about Tara, Willow/Tara and Amber!"

"...while i'm here, can I just echo what that other guy said? I think it went something like this: Amber Benson.... Amber Benson..." - Joss Whedon, November 6 2001

"Hannigan..... did you hear that?" - Joss Whedon, November 13 2001

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First off, great topic. I *love* the Tara/Dawn interaction. And I think there are a lot of things that contribute to the bond. Both the kid sister, both very bright, both somewhat Scoobie outsiders (although not so much now)Plus, it's very clear that Dawn really looks up to and needs Tara, and that's probably something that Tara hasn't had a whole lot of in her life. I also think Tara is somewhat maternal by nature (although she drew the line at playing mommy to her grown father and brother)

And I think when Joyce died, Tara saw a lot of herself in Dawn, and realized a chance to do for Dawn what Tara wished someone had done for her when she lost her mom.

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Tracy

Hear that Baby? You're my always.

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I was hoping Tara knew something about Dawn's
true origin since Tara seems to have a sixth sense.

Edited I am Willow hand!!!!!

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Tara: My heart doesn't stutter.

Tara: Willow, I got so lost.
Willow: I found you. I will always find you.

Tara: Nobody messes with my girl!

[This message has been edited by The Rose (edited December 20, 2001).]

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I definitely agree that Dawn is a very important person in Tara's life. She's the sister she never had. The Scooby outsider she identified with beginning in The Real Me. There's this really strong, almost intuitive bond there. The care was there from the very beginning.

I wonder if its Tara trying to give Dawn the childhood she, Tara, never had herself. They both lost mothers at early ages (if you think about it Dawn the creation wasn't even a year old). Difficult childhoods/especially young adolescences. (As Tara matured, the closer she approached to showing her "true face" or so her father told her).

In general though, I think Tara is a very compassionate person. Most of her life she was denied love (even if her bastard family told her they "loved" her) and perhaps even worse denied an outlet for the love that swelled inside her. I think in Dawn Tara has found a vessel to pour that natural love/caring so long thwarted into.

That's why even rewatching Tough Love that Tara would rather die than give up Dawn to Glory.

If Dawn had been in Season 4, I think Tara would have first met her even before she met "Buffy" in TYG/WAY.

I can see Dawn stealing (no pun intended) away to visit Buffy at college and meeting Tara in B/W's room.

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The Rose, there was a lot of speculation about that when season five was playing out. I don't think there's much evidence that Tara had any special knowledge about Dawn, but no strong evidence that she didn't. I personally kinda like the idea that she was responding to Dawnie as a person, and not just as a mission. And her reaction to Dawn now, without Glory chasing her, seems to indicate it's more than just protecting Dawn cause she was the key.

[This message has been edited by Wiccagrrl (edited December 20, 2001).]

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yep - very cool thread. I think this is a really sweet relationship, it was just so nice in "Smashed"/"Wrecked" when Tara couldn't leave Dawn on her own. And on the one hand you've got Dawn always trying to be the grown up, non-kid but you can see how much she really loves how maternal Tara is with her. Buffy loves Dawn more than her own life (as season five proved) but Tara seems more expressive about her feelings towards Dawn more often. It's sweet.

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I think the Tara/Dawn relationship is far more mundane (as opposed to magical).

Tara lost her mother, so she stepped in as the mother for her family. She even talks about having to deal with "Donny's stuff".

Tara feels protective over Dawn. This is increased when Dawn looses her own mother. They have a bond that the other scoobies don't have.

I am also going with Bob here. Tara gives herself up to glory rather than give up Dawn. Not because all of the world is at risk, but because Dawn is.

What Dawn memories does Tara have? Hmmmm. Well subjectively Dawn would have been 13. So maybe lots of questions about witches, maybe even some about college life. I bet lots of trips to the ice cream shop for shakes, maybe a movie or two. This would of course happen after "Who Are You". So whatever Summertime fun the Scoobies have when we can't watch them. Picnics, fourth of July stuff.

Of course we might get to see this *if* the animated Buffy show includes Dawn.

Warlock.

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Web Warlock
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quote:

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Of course we might get to see this *if* the animated Buffy show includes Dawn.

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Probably not. As I understand it, the animated series is supposed to be set in season one (maybe a little bit of season 2) We might get a young Dawn, but doubtful we'll get Tara.

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I really like the Tara/Dawn relationship. It shows how essential Tara is right now, because Dawn isn't getting the 'mother' figure from anywhere else, especially not Buffy. And that's kind of sad, I guess.

But I love seeing the nurturing side of Tara; how she truly cares about Dawn's wellbeing and her as a person. I think it points to Tara's innate humanitarianism that we've seen before in the show, and develops her character nicely.

If this season is all about 'oh grow up', then surely we see Tara as the end result. She was forced to grow up at an early age, taking care of her brother and her father when her mother died. And look at her now. She's responsible about everything; the magic being just one of those things. I think her distance from the Scoobies is markedly important in that it sets her aside from them, like a squabbling bunch of wayward children compared to a mature young woman.

The way she's handled the break up is also really admirable. She's been so strong about this; we know that her heart aches, and that she's sad. But we also know that she's taking the only route she can right now, because she trusts in her love for Willow; who has to figure this out for herself.

Anyway, back to Tara and Dawn. I think the scenes between them have been really touching, even from the early scene in Season 5 when they were thumb wrestling. I loved that. So cute. I also really liked the scene when Tara brought Dawn home and stayed with her, complete with the whole rolling of eyes and such like. It's a very subtle relationship they're playing out, and it really seems like Dawn is Willow and Tara's child, not the little sister of their best friend.

This all points to Tara playing a far more crucial role in the show than perhaps we've thought. Because if she leaves, then who will care about little Dawnie?

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"Bitter, party of one. Bitter, party of one." she muttered... ~ Four Months After by Capt. Murdock

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Duh... Ruth you just made something click in my head... Apologies for "stealing" if someone else has pointed this out before.

We learned in a recent interview that during her teen years, Marti Noxon had two mommies.

Could it be that Dawn = Marti's representative on the show?

If so, that's all the more reason to think Tara will survive and W/T will be back together in the fullness of time. Up until now, I've been thinking purely in terms of Joss's personal interest in keeping Tara. Maybe Marti has one, too.

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Remember the Kitten Board Mantra: "Joss is nuts about Tara, Willow/Tara and Amber!"

"...while i'm here, can I just echo what that other guy said? I think it went something like this: Amber Benson.... Amber Benson..." - Joss Whedon, November 6 2001

"Hannigan..... did you hear that?" - Joss Whedon, November 13 2001

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That's not a bad theory, Bob. It would stand to reason that perhaps Marti might want to show viewers that a child can be raised by two 'mothers' and can have positive gay role models in her life.

Just a theory.

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"Bitter, party of one. Bitter, party of one." she muttered... ~ Four Months After by Capt. Murdock

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Let me respectfully disagree with lion+dove, Dawn may have stolen away to the college campus but not until she had met Tara. Going to B/W dorm room might have gotten her busted if big sis showed up. Going to see Tara (&possibly Willow) would be logical if she wanted to learn more of magic.
Would like to believe this is purely sister or mother/daughter relationship but I wonder.
The teaser for the program showed Dawn writing in her diary, saying (about Buffy) she thinks I am just her little sister, boy has she a surprise coming.
Tara is a little fey does she know something about Dawn that we don't?
Of course there is that wholle thing about Americans and their funny pronouncing of words. Dawn/Don or closer Dawnie/Donny.
All tho Tara doesn't use a nickname for Dawn do think she could react to Dawn's name because it sounds like Don?

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quote:

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Originally posted by gypsyfoot:
Of course there is that wholle thing about Americans and their funny pronouncing of words. Dawn/Don or closer Dawnie/Donny.
All tho Tara doesn't use a nickname for Dawn do think she could react to Dawn's name because it sounds like Don?

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I think this is a red herring. I'm not sure accent has anything to do with it; given that the vowel sounds of Americans are longer and more drawn out than say, the British pronunciation.

But I think the last thing Tara would do is connect Dawn with her brother. Two ends of a really, really long spectrum.

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"Bitter, party of one. Bitter, party of one." she muttered... ~ Four Months After by Capt. Murdock

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The thing is that Tara could have been supplanting the mother role for Dawn but Joyce wasn't dead when Tara firs interacted with Dawn. Yet right away, Tara wanted to take care of her. Clearly she sees herself in Dawn. And I agree she wants to give Dawn what she didn't have at times as a young woman. She also is craving the mother/daughter relationship that was taken away from her and she is going to fulfill it with Dawn.

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quote:

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Originally posted by BBOvenGuy:
Duh...
We learned in a recent interview that during her teen years, Marti Noxon had two mommies.

Could it be that Dawn = Marti's representative on the show?

If so, that's all the more reason to think Tara will survive and W/T will be back together in the fullness of time. Up until now, I've been thinking purely in terms of Joss's personal interest in keeping Tara. Maybe Marti has one, too.

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For 3 months Willow and Tara were Dawn's parents, and it appears that she bonded with Tara as a mother-figure. With Willow, though, I get the idea that Dawn thought of Willow as another big sister from her earlier interaction such as Willow's aid in "Forever" and early in "Tough Love". Even in "Wrecked" - before the visit to Rack's - Willow's attitude towards Dawn was not as close as Tara's, certainly not motherly. I think this speaks to a close bond of love between Tara and her mother, something that Willow unfortunately cannot claim. It would be interesting to know if Marti Noxon had such a relationship pattern with her mothers, and what if anything resulted from those relationships - loss, estrangement, reconciliation?

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Lynn

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no problem gypsyfoot. i can see your point. guess i was thinking about when i was a younger sister and college was this exotic wonderland *rotflmao* ahhh, those days of youthful delusion. btw, feel free to call me Lo. I know lion + dove is a bitca to type *smile*

so how do we think Tara will react when she finds out Dawn's a tad klepto? I think she'll be understanding but concerned. She definitely won't cut her off though- she'll still be there for her.

I

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As far as I remember, Tara hadnt even gone to the Summers house by the end of season four, so she probably didnt meet Dawn until sometime between 4 and 5. At the start of season 5 they werent close at all, and I think the thumb wrestling was Taras incredibly cute way of breaking the ice. The real bonding between them probably happened between 5 and 6, since Tara would have been the person best equipped to help Dawn deal with what happened.

Oh, and you crazy accented Americans do pronounce Dawnie/Donnie the same. Its probably not an issue, but maybe Tara subconsciously sees Dawn as a chance to play mommie, but this time with better results.

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I agree with what other's have said about Tara identifying with Dawn, both as the outsider and the orphan. It seems clear that the implanted memories included the two of them becoming pretty familiar over the summer since by 'Real Me' they already had a relationship. (I believe that Tara had to have been in Sunnydale all summer since it was only October when her father said they hadn't heard from her in "months".)

The intriguing question here for me is the one of those implanted memories. Since the monks made Dawn out of Buffy, then it seems logical to think that Dawn's memories- and everbody else's memories of her- would be based on Buffy's knowledge and views. The problem is, Buffy wouldn't have known anyone in jr. high school, yet Dawn would have to have memories of friends, etc, that Buffy couldn't possibly know anything about.

This implies that Dawn is a lot more than just part of Buffy, and so her relationship with Tara, as with everyone else, would be just as if she had always been there. Never mind season 4, Buffy has memories going back 14 years to when Dawn was just a few days old.

Whatever Tara's and Dawn's constructed memories of each other might be, it's clear that Dawn has a desperate need, now more than ever, for the emotional level-headedness that Tara provides. It reminds me a little of how last year Dawn would seek out Spike because he didn't treat her "like a kid." I think that he kind of grounded her, emotionally, by being straight with her and not trying to spare her feelings. Like Tommo says, Tara's the only one of the scoobies acting responsibly right now. In a way, she's the only adult and Dawn needs that as much as she at other times wants to be treated like one.

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Wow, really great topic.

I agree that Tara definitely is a mother figure for Dawn, and also a role model, which is a good thing not only because it means that Tara is much more now than just Willows girlfriend, but because, whether intended or not, this is a good example that gays can be good parents and role models for children. Is there any other show on American tv right now that shows that?

What Im really curious about is how Tara is going to react when she hears about Dawn getting injured and that its Willows fault. I hope it wont, but I can imagine that this will make things between Tara and Willow even worse. Its already hard for Tara to forgive Willow her breach of trust, but considering how Tara feels for Dawn, to forgive Willow that might even be harder. Tara sacrificed herself for Dawn, and Willow goes out and almost gets her killed. Although Tara knows that Willow is sick, I would be mad as hell if I was Tara.

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For this, we should all erect little shrines to the goddess Ellen and burn lavender incense. Network TV finally has gays and lesbians on its radar. Joyce Millman, Salon.com, May 2000

"Nobody messes with my girl!" Tara in Bargaining Part 2

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I've said it in other threads - Dawn should move in with Tara. She's the only one right now who cares for Dawn the way a parent should.

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What always made me go "hmm" was the fact that Dawn was Buffy's little sister, so you'd think she'd try to emulate Buffy, and yet, she was more drawn to the witchcraft (Willow/Tara's role with the Scoobies) end of the group. Plus, Dawn hates it when her sister tries to mother her, but she loves it when Tara does.

Keeping in mind that Dawn has developed a lot of Buffy's qualities pre-Slayer, like the klepto stuff, and remembering the immediate nonverbal connection between Buffy and Willow when they first met, I wonder if maybe that's why Dawn and Tara get along so well.

I guess to me, it doesn't really matter why: just that it is, and it makes Tara that much more essential to the group.

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Love the topic.

I feel like maybe Tara cares so much about Dawn cuz when she's at Dawn's age she not so happy with her family.She might think that in this age,caring and affectionate are really important and it's come naturally to Tara for parenting Dawn.And yes,because they both have common root so it's connect someway.

Which with Buffy,Dawn feels like Buffy is the sis so she's not gonna listen to Buffy much ( like all sis mostly are ) It'll be much more like hangin' out thing.Beside,Buffy's always too busy for something eles.And I think somehow Buffy is even more confuse than Dawn.So,it's good for Dawn to have Tara.

To Willow...I don't know,isn't that Dawn always look up to Willow?Any thoughts?

Hmm,my mind so blocked now,so tried for long day...see you later when I get better.

*Fuzz*

[This message has been edited by Fuzz (edited December 21, 2001).]

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Like Kitten Scout I too have mentioned Dawn moving in with Tara on previous threads. Dawn would want (I think) a sstable environment which isn't happening at her place.
Also what about her school work? Last we heard was do better or the courts will decide were you live. (Gee I couldn't make school that day, you see there was this really high tower an-an-and this hell god who wanted me t-t-to jump a-an-)
Tara is a really strong individual, let us not make the mistake of regulating her only to the role of Dawn's surrogate mom.

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One of the memories put in there by the monks must have been that Dawn was more understanding of Willow and Tara's relationship than the rest of the group... In "OMWF," Dawn says she thinks it's romantic, and the rest of the group tells her no it's not, very sternly. Could that be part of why Tara doesn't handle her with "kid gloves?"

Also, would Dawn have been in the bathroom with Anya and Tara during "The Yoko Factor?" Tara comforting Dawn then could have been a monk-inserted memory.

I agree with a lot of the other things said as well. Responsibility, etc. And even though the age gap isn't really that extreme and Tara's not the create life kind of girl, Tara might just have a natural mothering instinct which she projects onto her relationship with Dawn.

The monks didn't really go back and change history, they just changed everybody's memory of it, and forged birth certificates, school records, social security number, doctor's files, etc.

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quote:

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One of the memories put in there by the monks must have been that Dawn was more understanding of Willow and Tara's relationship than the rest of the group... In "OMWF," Dawn says she thinks it's romantic, and the rest of the group tells her no it's not, very sternly. Could that be part of why Tara doesn't handle her with "kid gloves?"

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Drifting a little off topic here, but that particular exchange always puzzled me a bit. Was Dawn saying the whole musical extravaganza thing was romatic, or that W/T were romantic? Cause, I have a hard time seeing the gang being so forceful about saying W/T aren't. And Dawn responds with something along the lines of "Aw, come on. Singing, dancing...what's gonna be wrong with that?"

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quote:

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Originally posted by tommo:
She's responsible about everything; the magic being just one of those things. I think her distance from the Scoobies is markedly important in that it sets her aside from them, like a squabbling bunch of wayward children compared to a mature young woman.

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I haven't been happy about her distance from the other Scoobies, but now that you put it like that, I can appreciate it. It's like Tara's been set aside as the example of what they're all striving to become. Very nice.

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"I have no plans to send Tara anywhere...As for Amber, even if she weren't going out with Willow, I think she's become a big part of the heart of the show." - Joss Whedon

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quote:

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Originally posted by Wiccagrrl:
Drifting a little off topic here, but that particular exchange always puzzled me a bit. Was Dawn saying the whole musical extravaganza thing was romatic, or that W/T were romantic?

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I found it puzzling as well because it seems like the way the conversation is going they are talking about Willow and Tara, and it is as if the others are trying to "protect" Dawn from hearing/thinking about the sexual aspect of a gay relationship. It's always sort of bugged me the way that scene flows.

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Hmmm... you know I never took that scene in OMWF when Dawn says "I think it's kind of romantic," and Xander and Buffy reply, "No, it's not!" to be them referring to W/T's relationship, but rather to the singing and dancing. Xander said right after "I've Got a Theory," that he thought it was disturbing, and Buffy seemed really unsettled by her first big number, too, when she came into the Magic Box the next morning.

And also, in terms of the timeline of Dawn's growing understanding of the W/T relationship, in Real Me, her journal entry about Joyce wigging when the Dawnster wistfully says she hopes Willow and Tara will teach her "some of the things they do together," suggests that at that point, she is unaware of their lesbian relationship. She also refers to Tara as Willow's "friend." Joyce didn't know in Buffy vs. Dracula, either, as indicated by the gag about being put off by men altogether after which W/T exchanged those cutely knowing grins.

quote:

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Originally posted by perspixx:
Also, would Dawn have been in the bathroom with Anya and Tara during "The Yoko Factor?" Tara comforting Dawn then could have been a monk-inserted memory.

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I doubt that Dawn would have been a frequent guest at Scooby meetings, especially while Buffy was living on campus freshman year.

quote:

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Originally posted by perspixx:
I agree with a lot of the other things said as well. Responsibility, etc. And even though the age gap isn't really that extreme and Tara's not the create life kind of girl, Tara might just have a natural mothering instinct which she projects onto her relationship with Dawn.

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Um... just curious, but why in your mind is Tara not "the create life kind of girl"?

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Little drummer girl.

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I have a theory. Once reality was altered to include Dawn, my own suspicion is that Dawn met Tara before any of the other Scoobies (save Willow, natch)--probably enjoying the fact she knew something about Willow that Buffy didn't. Now by that I don't mean she then realized what W/T were to each other, only that Willow had a witch-friend only she and Dawn knew about.

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"O let my name be in the Book of Love.
If it be there, I care not of
That other book Above...
Strike it out! Or write it in anew.
But let it be in the Book of Love!"
--Omar Kyam

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great topic. I've always been a D/T friendship supporter. lots of good answers and throeies running around.

kiinda OT- i was just wondering what perspixx meant by: *Tara's not the create life kind of girl.*

do you mean life as in life of the party kinda girl or life as in creating a life like a mother and giving birth. i ask because out of any of the women on the show she'd be the most likely to have kids. they show her as a mom, her instincts are obvious but just because she's a lesbian doesn't mean she isnt the "create life kind of girl"... just wanted you to clear that up for me becuase i'm a bit offended if you meant the latter.

the whole thing with Willow/Tara/Dawie and Marti is very interesting. I wonder if her two mommies are still together. but it's toally obvious that the bond between TAra/Dawn is bigger, more mortherly/sisterly that W/D. Willow's never really had parents or siblings, her *brother* is Xander and her *sister* is Buffy. she seems more distant with dawn, like it is her friends sister but we've never really seen W/D too much on screen. the only time i can remember was after joyce's death and willow "gave" her the book. Tara was stern about all that stuff with DAwnie and yet that was the first time i ever saw willow trying to soothe dawn. i cant think of any other times.

in the shooting script for Wrecked i was very surpirsed when one of the cut lines from the T/D milkshake time was Tara telling dawn it was grownup stuff what she and willow were going through and she didn't want to talk to her about it. i dont think i've ever heard TAra separate herself from dawn so much as in that moment. it was very, very weird.

and that scene in OMWF also left me a bit puzzled. it sounded to me like they were grossed out by the thought of W/T having sex. very bizarre.

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