POLL - When did Joss surpass your W/T hopes?

[BBOvenGuy]

Here's a question that should help pass the remaining 47 hours and 17 minutes until The Gift is broadcast where I live:

Think back to the beginning of Season 5. Think about what you were hoping you'd see of Willow and Tara during the season. At what point did Joss meet those hopes? At what point did he go beyond them?

Was it the fact that Tara showed up at all?

Was it the hug in The Real Me?

Was it the bed-snuggle and the dance in Family?

Was it Willow calling herself gay, and calling her and Tara "lesbian gay-type lovers?"

Was it the kiss in The Body?

Was it the fight in Tough Love? Despite how painful it was, it pretty much portrayed Willow and Tara as an unmistakable gay couple and made it clear that Willow has no plans to go back to boys any time soon.

When did Joss go beyond what you'd hoped for? Or has he? Is there more he can do?

Have fun!

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Remember the Kitten Board Mantras:

"Joss is nuts about Tara, Willow/Tara and Amber!"

"Willow and Tara are the most romantic couple on the show, and that's exactly how Joss is treating them."

[This message has been edited by BBOvenGuy (edited May 20, 2001).]

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I'm just glad that they're doing it, and that they're doing it so well.

I mean, I get so bloody sick of those legions of sexless, unhappy, or one-shot queer characters on television.

Willow and Tara are the first time that I've ever seen that part of my life reflected in popular entertainment. Two teenage girls in love. That works for me.

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Great question Bob, for me I would have to say the bed-snuggle and the dance in Family, I was not expecting those at all, I was really surprised to see that, Joss has yet to disappoint and I can't wait for what he has planned for next season

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Had to be the conversation Willow had with Buffy in New Moon Rising! Up until that point there was subtext and alot of it, so what though you can get that watching Xena. BUT when Willow said those magic words "It's complicated... because of Tara." that was IT! Finally someone had the guts to out a main character for something other then a pubicity stunt, and to have it out in the open and discussed was so cool!
Although I do have to say I was already convinced something was going on when I saw that spell they did in "Who Are You".

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Willow: We can come by between classes. Usually I use that time to copy over my class notes with a system of different colored pens, but it's been pointed out to me that that's, you know, insane.

Tara: I said "quirky".

Buffy The Vampire Slayer - "Triangle"

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I'd have to say that the bed-snuggle and the dance in Family was the point where Joss meet my expectations and with the kiss in The Body he exceeded them.

Is there more he can do, yes. I would love to see Willow propose to Tara next season.

[This message has been edited by Roxton (edited May 21, 2001).]

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Well, discounting the fact that Joss has been surpassing my expectations since the first scene of the first episode of Season 1 (I was just sure that the guy was gonna be the vampire... and then, well, Darla. And the theme music, and I was hooked. Ah, nostalgia... ) ), I'm gonna have to go with the kiss in The Body as the biggest surprise. Seeing that unspoiled was one of the finest moments of television I can think of.

'Course, I knew it was gonna happen eventually. Ever since Hush. There was just way too much going on between Willow and Tara (and Alyson and Amber) for there not to be a kiss at some point...

--Dennis
"Numfar! Do the Dance of Running off on a Tangent!"

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i guess pretty much in the fourth season. i LOVE the flaming o' spell. and the back painting in retless was awsome too. both scenes were very sensual, not merelly sexual like usually some things are treated... season five also had - has - amazing scenes. family was quite an episode, and the hug in RM was also very very sweet. the kiss was perhaps one of the best surprises ever, and though i haven't seen the fight yet, i feel it will be quite a intense moment. but i admit that for me, already in hush joss whedon was meeting my hopes.

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Now that's a hard one... Joss continually surpasses my expectations. But i'd have to agree with some of the others. The kiss in "The Body" was something that i never thought i'd see. And i was COMPLETLY unspoiled when i saw the episode.

My grandmother ended up knocking on my bedroom door and asking me what i was yelling about!

I am always impressed with Joss Whedon for his bravery in the face of the censors and network execs. And his determination to see the relationship shown in a realistic light. Without trying to make it a ratings ploy or caveing into TPTB.

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All I wanted from this season was a kiss, but what went on in Family went beyond my expectations. I never thought he would have them in bed together inside the covers. Tough Love? I never thought I would see that. And the way the kiss was shot also went beyond my expectations. I am thrilled. MOre than thrilled. The man rocks. It's why i have hope we have more to come.

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In general I'd say Joss has surpassed what I'd hoped to see regarding W/T. Their relationship has continued in a logical but moving way, while the portrayal of it has continued to grow. For which I continue to cheer (quietly, but I [i:4a2004ca21]do[/i:4a2004ca21] cheer).

Loved the kiss, loved the snuggling, adored the Big Pineapple scene, Tara's little flashes of jealousy, Willow's proud acceptance of her new life ("gay now" "preaching the choir here" "we're lovers" etc.)

Okay, I still want somebody to walk in on Willow and Tara at an intimate moment. And to see Willow's mother find out. I'm also looking forward to a wedding.

But these can wait.

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"O let my name be in the Book of Love.
If it be there, I care not of
That other book Above...
Strike it out! Or write it in anew.
But let it be in the Book of Love!"
--Omar Kyam

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Wow, having to step back into the mindset I had way back then...I've come to realize that Joss surpassed my expectations with the bedsnuggle and dance in Family.
Before then I really was hoping against hope that there would be something more than a little hugging, that it would show the honesty of their love. I was pretty much blown away by Family, and before then...I had never seriously dreamed that anything like that would have happened.

Silly me for not having faith in Joss.

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With the bed snuggle and dance in Family, I think Joss met my expectations. With the kiss in "The Body" he exceeded them. But I've been impressed all along with how Joss & co. have handled them. They've been open and honest about the nature of this relationship. It hasn't been exploitive, they haven't done the "are they or aren't they" two-step. Just two women in love. Just two people in love. What could be simpler or more complicated than that?

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Tracy

Hear that Baby? You're my always.

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Considering that I was thrilled by the Buffy/Faith subtext in Season 3, I'd say that everything Joss has ever done with W/T, starting with "Hush" and the amazing way that Tara looked at Willow, has exceeded my expectations. As for Season 5 specifically...I was not expecting The Kiss at all. That completely blew me away.

I don't know how he'll do it, but I really hope Joss never stops blowing me away.

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Well New Moon Rising was when he went beyond my expectations, but for Season Five it would have to be Family. Wonderful, wonderful episode, still a firm favourite

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CalebRoss.com
Nathan West Online

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Tricky question.

I'd say Joss made my world by introducing Tara at all. Just that very first moment of moving the soda machine in "Hush" was incredibly poignant and meaningful to me.

But if I had to pick, it would be "Family" for that final scene that still makes me cry, five million viewings later. I'll never get enough of that dialogue . . .

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"Oh, baby, want me to rub your tummy? She likes it when I . . . stop explaining things."
-- Tara, "The Body"

"No, she likes what I do . . . I think she likes what she's doing."
-- Gabrielle, "A Day in the Life"

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Something I read on the C&S Board the other day made me realize how far we'd come in Season Five. A non-W/T fan was writing about the two characters and how they felt when Willow was first outed. They finished by saying, "... but now I can't even imagine Willow NOT being gay."

Too cool.

Thanks, Joss.

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The one thing I had asked for at the beginning of this season was a term of endearment. Maybe this is something simple and silly, but it was one thing that hadn't been done before that people in real relationships do. There have been so many "honey" and "sweeties" that it has really blown me away.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Shaniezak:
But if I had to pick, it would be "Family" for that final scene that still makes me cry, five million viewings later. I'll never get enough of that dialogue . . .

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Only five million? Slacker!!

For me it's Family, definitely Family. From "vixen" and snuggles to dancing and "it makes me love you more".

D

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A kiss wouldn't have surpassed my expectations because that's something normal for a couple to do, and I just assumed it would happen sometime. But for Joss to show them snuggling in bed or slow dancing, or even the back hug in Real Me, those are things that every couple does, but aren't ever seen on tv done by queer folks. There have been overhyped kisses since Roseanne and before, but there's something more special about seeing the everyday intimate actions between Willow and Tara that all the other characters get on a normal basis.

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I can truly say the Joss has more than exceeded my expections and my admiration for him in Season 4 and Season 5. [i:abc69ac931]New Moon Rising[/i:abc69ac931] just had my jaw dropping to the floor in complete surprise. I kept my eye on the progression of the W/T relationship and have been constantly amazed at the tact and sensitivity that Joss has used in fleshing out the nuances of this. I think that [i:abc69ac931]The Body[/i:abc69ac931] and [i:abc69ac931]Family[/i:abc69ac931] really brought it home for me. It is so rare when a television show can make my eyes well up with tears. I'm such a bloody romantic *sigh*

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"By the pricking of my thumbs, somethign wicked this way comes."

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I am a huge fan of the terms of endearment. It is a very easy way to make them very couply and I love it. They are just the type who would love to call each other honey or baby. I love it so much. I can't get enough of it. This has def. exceeded my expectations as well.

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I think Joss probably met my expectations by introducing Tara. I was intrigued as to how Willow was going to be gay after all that time...um...not.

Anyway, the moment when he really exceeded anything I could have imagined was when they were snuggling under the covers in Family. And it took a relative outsider to make me see it. I was forcing, ahem, sorry, encouraging my girlfriend to watch it and she sat through the first scene. Cute chat, cute kitty, cute Willow and Tara talk. When Tara got into bed with Willow my gf turned to me in amazement. "They show that on network tv?" she said, all agog.

I think it was then that I realised how special this relationship is, not just to me, but to everyone who sees it and thinks, yeah, that's ok, that's cute, that's nice. Of course, everything does keep building nicely on top of that, especially the pained argument in Tough Love. I think that just tipped me over the edge slightly.

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"It doesn't matter, really, if I don't see Willow tonight, she knew. Willow was in her life, for keeps. That was what mattered." ~ Tara, Unseen: The Burning

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Joss...ah...Ze Magnificent One..

heehee...the only time he exceeded my expectations was the in-bed snuggle and slow dance...the kiss was strangely expected (though not in that manner) after these two...cos if he could work those in..a kiss is nothing. When they went beyond the cutesy bits...*sigh*

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I think what has surprised me has been the [i:605444cee7]way[/i:605444cee7] things have been done. I figured there would be a kiss sooner or later, but I would never have imagined it in the place Joss put it, or in the way Joss had it done. It was so... matter-of-fact - but I mean that in a good way. "Here are two young women in a relationship. This is what they do to comfort each other in times of grief."

That same attitude - maybe "matter-of-fact" isn't the best description, but it's all I can come up with right now - has been what has impressed me the most. In Season 4 everything was shrouded. Even when Willow came out to Buffy it was "it's complicated because of Tara" and "there's something between us." Willow referred to Tara as her girlfriend exactly once, and that was it for the year. By the time of [i:605444cee7]Tough Love[/i:605444cee7] on the other hand, we were getting "You've been out longer" and "I'm sorry I didn't establish my lesbo street cred" flung around as naturally as if they were discussing the weather. The same goes for the "honeys" and "sweeties" that have been creeping into the dialogue more and more often. I think that's where Joss has really broken new ground with W/T, and I hope he continues to do so in the future.

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Remember the Kitten Board Mantras:

"Joss is nuts about Tara, Willow/Tara and Amber!"

"Willow and Tara are the most romantic couple on the show, and that's exactly how Joss is treating them."

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[Unregistered(d)]

I think it was MKF in Family.
Scenes of extreme kitten cuteness don't often happen on TV,and I was chuffed.
What were we talking about again...

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I think my fav ep's have been New Moon Rising,Family and The Body. But the fight..made me cry, because it was so real....Joss has kicked ass with T/W and helped me to realize that my relationships are just as normal as anyone else, with the same fights, loves and losses.

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Wow, tough question, I guess like most of you, Family was the first Ep that totally floored me, up to that point I was happy with the little glimpses of how 'together' they were, but Family was just WOW, it was done so simply without any fanfare or 'ooh look at us, we're gay' it was just so natural, the end scene was perfect, even without the words, you could feel the love between them, just by the way they were looking at each other.

Since then, it's just got better and better, every Honey or Sweetie, every smile, the kisses of course, but what's really done it for me has been Tough Love and Spiral, I know they've been hard to watch, but to see Willow's constant devotion to Tara has been breathtaking, I just love the way that Joss has shown the world that they're hopelessly in love with each other and nothing is going to get in the way of that!

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To love someone deeply gives you strength. Being loved by someone deeply gives you courage. -- Lao Tzu

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quote:

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Originally posted by GODisTigger:
Only five million? Slacker!!

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Hush up, D. I was trying to be halfway modest about it. I cannot get enough of that episode. Miss Kitty and cute snuggling and a touch of angst and loving dialogue. And one thing that I always found touching about "Family:" Willow's visible excitement when she reminded the Gang about Tara's birthday party, and how her face fell when none of them remembered why she was telling them to be at the Bronze by 8.

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"Oh, baby, want me to rub your tummy? She likes it when I . . . stop explaining things."
-- Tara, "The Body"

"No, she likes what I do . . . I think she likes what she's doing."
-- Gabrielle, "A Day in the Life"

I

[Unregistered(d)]

Hm...the moments that stand out the most for me:

New Moon Rising:

Otherwise known as "The Ep where Oz returns to win back Willow's love."

We all knew it was going to happen right? The thought of the eventual return of Oz positively loomed over early W/T, even for those who liked him. We knew he would come back, and be all laconic and cute and Oz, and it would all be over...

Didn't happen.

The boy didn't get the girl. The boy didn't get the girl. The girl got the girl. Did that happen? That never happens. Not on TV. Oh my god. Willow chose Tara. Joss pulled the trigger. He really did it. He wrote it, they did it, it's official. A decision so unique, so radical by conventional TV standards, some fans of the show cannot process it to this day.

Second moment for me:

Family:

Willow is in bed. Tara's sitting on the bed. Willow invites Tara into bed. Tara joins Willow in bed, they snuggle a bit and fall alseep. Hottest Buffy scene ever? Erm..well, no.

But in 1989, on Thirtysomething, two gay men couldn't even touch in bed, at all, they kind of lay at opposite ends. And ABC lost nearly a million dollars in ad revenue. And some affiliates cut the scene. We hadn't gotten a kiss yet, we'd gotten some intersting dream sequence stuff in Restless, but you know, wacky dream sequences.

This was real world. Thier real lives. Dropping off to sleep snuggled up with your sweetie. Again, did that happen? That never happens.

The Body:

Willow is upset. She's crying. It's heartbreaking. You just want to go to her and hold her and kiss her and make her feel better. That's what you do when your sweetie is in pain. Any het TV couple would..but you know, Willow and Tara can't really...shame really, Willow looks so sad...

Tara goes over to Willow and holds her and kisses her and makes her feel better. Several kisses. Good kisses. With no one looking like they're terrified thier partner has cooties *cough*Jack*cough*. Finally.

In full light, no furtive shadows. In full profile, no convenient "back of the head" obfuscation. No cutaways. No sound effects off camera. Two people using thier love to get them through a terrible time.

Tara has not, it should be noted, become evil, nor has she contracted a disease and died. (yeah, I'm looking right at you Dark Angel) She has not, as of yet, sacrificed herself tragically and given Willow, with her dying breath, permission to date boys again. Willow hasn't gigglingly admited she was..erm, drunk, all through the latter half of season four, and can't remember if she said or did anything that Tara just misinterpreted, no hard feelings, just those wacky alcohol induced hijinks. No one has become overwhelmed with the tragedy of thier gayness and commited suicide.

Doesn't Joss know there are established rules in these matters? The man is a menace to TV reality.

-len

[This message has been edited by Hugin (edited May 21, 2001).]

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Well, that's good, isn't it, len? 'cause I kind of thought "TV reality" as it currently exists is a bit of an oxymoron anyway . . .

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