‘My Girl’ – A Detailed Analysis of Willow and Tara's r'ship

[Firefoot]

LWT, good job with the TWoP-like review of "Wrecked." Honestly, I watched that ep once with one hand over my eyes. I barely remember any of it. Yuck. To think, I once thought highly of Marti Noxon's work.



I particularly disliked the (re) introduction of Amy and Rack. IMO, this was a subtle (or not so subtle) way of shifting some of Willow's responsibility for her actions onto someone else's shoulders. In other words, "yeah, Willow has a problem, but gee, she wouldn't have sunk so low if her irresponsible friend hadn't introduced her to that big, bad pusher." A far more courageous writing choice, IMO, would have had Willow dealing with her power and taking full responsibilty for the damage that her actions caused. As I pointed out earlier, this would have been a far tougher thing to write than "crack addict Willow."



Slightly OT:



darkmagicwillow wrote:

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Before Oz' actions in WAH and NMR, I would have agreed with your assessment of Oz, but after he kills Verucca and attacks Tara, I can't see him as a good person any longer.

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I disagree. For one thing, I don't think he intentionally set out to kill Veruca--he wanted to stop her from killing Willow, but once he wolfed out, he had no control over what he did. Ditto the attack on Tara: he had no clue at that point that anger would cause him to wolf out, and once he realized what was happening, he told her to run. When he wolfed out there was no controling his actions.



I don't think he's a bad person; I think he's a good person who made some really horrible decisions. Oz struck me as someone terribly afraid of the werewolf, and his response to it was almost always to run, hide, or try to make it go away. There's an interesting parallel with Willow: he couldn't or wouldn't take responsibility for this awesome power inside himself. Even though Oz didn't choose to become a werewolf and Willow did choose to become a witch, nevertheless each of them had to accept responsibility for the dangers that their supernatural "powers" might cause to someone else.



Firefoot

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"The holy passion of friendship is of so sweet and steady and loyal and enduring a nature that it will last for a whole lifetime, if not asked to lend money."

--Mark Twain

Edited by: Firefoot at: 5/12/03 7:16:13 am

[LostWithoutTara]

Thanks for the compliment. I too used to enjoy Marti's episodes, but now...



Oh well.

[Garner]

Back now. LWT, I really loved the sarcasim in your analysis of Wrecked. I can't stand that ep and have only watched it the one time. I find it and Smashed to have completed the destruction of any reasonable view of magic on BtVS. I hadn't forgotten about the shower and clothes scene, that was very good and does stand apart as an island of decent writing.



Firefoot, you have definitely hit on something there. I also didn't think Oz was a bad person for killing Veruca, he was the wolf then not himself, same with Tara. But the way he dealt with being a werewolf is sort of similar to Willow and magic. She didn't run or hide from it exactly, but she certainly didn't take responsibility in how she approached it. Sure, she would admit when she made mistakes, but she never really seemed to try and fix her approach so those things didn't happen again. Very interesting connection you've brought up.



GG, you and I will always disagree. Sure, Willow may have been a little guilty over Buffy's death. She was supposed to be the big gun and all she did was rescue her own girlfriend. I could see her reasoning that this meant she let Buffy down. But Willow is a studious, intelligent, over-achiever and still very thoughtful. She would work harder, study magic more, and be damn sure she could handle her end in any situation again. If anything that might have made her more responsible in how she used magic, and maybe more power hungry, but not so cavalier and whimsical in her approach. And she still would not abuse Tara. She cares about Tara too much, for her to hurt her in such a careless way. I still season season sux as a disconnect from Willow's core personality. Yes, they set up some of the conflict and Willow abusing magic prior to then, but the directions they went were for an a priori script, not based on how her character should have developed, reacted or would have acted. They had some OK ideas that could have worked, but they blew them in execution. Sort of the summary of season sux in general.



Garner

[darkmagicwillow]

When I say that I don't think Oz is a good person, that doesn't mean that I think he's evil. He's just part of that large ground in between. It's true that he killed Verucca as a werewolf, but I don't think that absolves him of the crime since as he said, the wolf is in him all the time. I take that to mean that he is in the wolf too, and that the wolf an inextricable and dark part of his identity, something that Willow would have had to accept if she had a relationship with him, hence my comparison of her dark relationship/future with Oz and her light relationship/future with Tara, symbolized by the extra-flamey candle.



Firefoot, your comparison between Oz's relationship with power and Willow's is insightful. Oz avoids dealing with/understanding his power until it overcomes him in WAH, while Willow deals with her power in a cookbook manner, likewise not understanding it, until it causes problems in season 6.



How does Tara fit in here? In her case, her power--her identity as a demon--isn't real, but as she thinks it is, she likewise hides away from it, concealing it from Willow and her friends by sabotaging the demon locator spell, lying to Willow about what she's researching, and finally casting a spell to alter the Scoobies' minds so they can't see demons. Overall, she doesn't succeed in this test any better than Willow or Oz do, but she's luckier in that the consequences aren't as bad, although they could've been.

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"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

Edited by: darkmagicwillow at: 5/12/03 1:50:12 pm

[Gatito Grande]

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GG, you and I will always disagree.

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??? I know I'm a sort of "quite contrary"-type person, but which, of my many opinions, are you disagreeing w/? My non-hatred of Wrecked, or



GG Resolved: "Willow and Tara are hot, Hot, HOT!" I dare you to disagree w/ that, Garner! Out

[darkmagicwillow]

It's been a long time since we saw season 4 for the first time, so it's difficult to reconstruct how we felt about Tara at first, but I'm curious as to what you recall about her from that time. There's all the happiness of Willow finding a new love in Tara, but there's also the mystery: why did Tara sabotage the demon locator spell and why was Tara a dream guide for both Willow and Buffy? Willow's dream could be explained by her magical or emotional connection to Tara, but Buffy's dream isn't so easy to explain. Were you worried about Willow becoming involved with someone who may not be what she seems?

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"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

[Gatito Grande]

I might have been a little worried *until* Restless. As I may have posted here before, once Tara said "You know (my real name)" I saw it as Willow intuiting that there wasn't anything really bad going on w/ Tara and her past.



Tara as Buffy's Spirit Guide (Voice of the First Slayer) is harder to explain, internally. Maybe Buffy's psyche chose Tara simply because, in hearing the First Slayer, she was hearing something new and unfamiliar to her (as was Tara, compared to the rest o' the Scoobs).



Externally, it's simple: Amber's (sexily) haunting presence, especially her voice. A total natural for a "voice from beyond"---and especially, the voice of wisdom (of which she would become the sole practitioner in the years ahead).



GG May I admit that when *Amber* says "the blood cry, the penetrating wound" it turns me on? Out

[xita]

I never thought Tara was bad. I just saw her and saw a deep connection for Willow. I worried sure that she would actually never come back again. That is what I thought, just a one episode appearance.

[justin]

I stopped worrying about the possibility that Tara might be bad after seeing New Moon Rising. Because after Oz had attacked her and been taken by the Initiative instead of just being glad that her rival for Willow's affections had been removed, she went straight to Willow to tell her what had happened.



To me this proved that Tara was more worried about Willows happiness than her own which proved that she must be one of the good guys.

I understand, you should be with the person you l-love


I am

[urnofosiris]

I remember how I felt when I saw Tara hide the powder. I felt annoyed that she did that. At the time I was still getting over my initial resentment that Willow needed Tara to move the vending machine in Hush, heh, yeah I missed the chemistry big time the first time around. The I in Team had warmed me up to Tara already, but I still didn't see their connection and so I wasn't shipping them yet. I guess that made me a little more objective then than I am now, but even then, even after seeing her hide the powder, I never for one second though it might mean she was bad. I didn't understand why she did that, I think my only thought on it was that maybe she did it to protect Willow and didn't want her to go after any demons, but I still was annoyed because it only made Willow's work harder and she was so disappointed. Anyway, I shrugged it off and I forgot about it till Family, when suddenly it made sense.



I could never see either Willow or Tara as anything other than what they are, which is good people. Their biggest flaw might be that they did not think too highly of themselves, if you can call that a flaw at all. Their insecurities makes them all the more real and all the more loveable and I think they needed each other see how wonderful they truly are.

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Coffee, Food, Kisses and Gay Love........Get it while you are hot

[LostWithoutTara]

I was never really concerned that Tara might be 'evil'. I thought she messed up the spell in GI because she was worried about Willow. But the real confirmation was when she told Willow about what happened to Oz in NMR (but I mentioned that in my notes on the episode, so I won't repeat myself).



I think Tara was the best choice for B/W's guides - obviously, she's Willow's soulmate and to Buffy she represents the unknown. I was hoping that the implication was that Tara really did have some knowledge of the future, but I was fine with her just being symbolic. Perhaps the First Slayer chose Tara to speak for her because Tara represents the earth goddess and ideas of nature/magic? In S6 Tara was the higher consciousness, so it seems possible that that was what she was meant to represent in Restless.

[The Rose24]

I never thought Tara was evil either. I just figured she thought the spell was too advanced or too dangerous for them. She went through with most of the spell because she didn't want Willow to leave or be disappointed.

Tara: My heart doesn't stutter.


Tara: Willow, I got so lost.

Willow: I found you. I will always find you.

[LostWithoutTara]

Season Six Musing



As I haven’t posted any continuation of the notes I made previously, here I just want to do some general S6 notes before I pick apart the details.



At the end of Season Four, the core four took part in the enjoining spell. Willow represented Buffy’s spirit, Xander Buffy’s heart and humanity, and Giles Buffy’s mind, while Buffy herself was the complete self. S5 mostly ignored this but S6 picked up the mantle and developed it further.



In S6, Willow, Xander and Giles all act as extensions of Buffy and this is important to remember while dissecting the events that we saw. The parallels cross the entire Season and from character to character, whether in subtler points (the Scoobs and the nerds) or obvious comparison (e.g. Buffy and Willow’s ‘addictions’ in ‘Wrecked’).



In Restless, The First Slayer chose Tara to be her representative – the higher consciousness. Tara reprises that role in S6.



The other characters are less important, but generally Dawn is Buffy’s ego, Anya is her practicality and Spike her shadow self. (Obviously, Spuffy was important that season but that’s not the focus here).



ME’s mission statement this time was to convey the ‘literalisation’ of life and the introversion and darkness you may encounter upon entering the adult world. Unfortunately for us, ME chose to show this in the worst way possible. Anyway, I digress. The previous metaphors do not apply any more. Everything is more ‘real’ and almost normal (well, as normal as a show featuring vampires, magic and demons can get.)



The first story parallel we see is that of Willow and Buffy. Buffy is in heaven at the start of the Season, and Willow is still happy with Tara (the higher conscious).



Willow takes Buffy from heaven, and Buffy is crushed and lost in the cold, hard world. Her spirit to fight and live on is broken, or at best, waning. Willow acts in this manner – as Buffy’s metaphor spirit, she manipulates things to her liking as Buffy’s spirit wishes to do – shaping things to be how she wants them, including Tara with the forget spell. Willow then undergoes her own private removal from heaven when Tara leaves her. Both women have lost their link to the higher consciousness – Buffy through being resurrected, and Willow metaphorically through losing Tara.



Their connections and anchorage gone, both drift aimlessly and unhappily. They look for substitutions to replace what they have lost. Buffy’s is in the form of sexual gratification from Spike and Willow’s is from her use of magic, both through the thrill of manipulating great power, and using the power for her own pleasure, be it playing with people in ‘Smashed’ or using it to induce euphoria in ‘Wrecked’.



The problem is that both Buffy and Willow obtain what they want through dangerous sources – Buffy embraces her shadow self while Willow visits a drug-pusher. Neither Spike nor Rack care about the emotional state of these women, so long as they receive what they desire – sex, either actual (Smashed) or implied (Wrecked).

In Wrecked, both girls crash, one literally, the other metaphorically. Willow nearly kills Dawn while on a high. She may have been able to dismiss Tara’s concern and anger as misunderstanding or over-emotion, but a crying child with a broken arm is much harder to rationalise. Willow realises that what she has been doing is wrong and asks for the love and support of those around her.



Interesting, isn’t it? When I write this it almost makes Wrecked seem plausible…



However, Willow’s problem is still not resolved. She projects the blame onto the magic as an addiction, something she could not control, but she knows that is not the case. She made the decision to go to Rack’s with Dawn. She made the decision to drive the car. It’s all on her shoulders. When Willow breaks down crying, this is the best reflection as to how Buffy’s spirit is damaged.



But finally, Willow has learnt that magic is not the way for her to touch the higher conscious. The only way to do that is to be good and work hard. She does, and slowly but steadily, she gets better, until eventually she rejoins the higher consciousness (in Entropy when she and Tara are reunited) and regains her bliss.



More soon on Willow’s parallels – (I know I kinda ignored the entire midseason). I just meant this post to be quick, but I’ve gone off at a tangent as per usual…

[darkmagicwillow]

I didn't pay much attention to the chemistry in Hush because I thought Tara was a single episode character too, but I caught on quickly after that. However, I was dismayed by her sabotage of the demon locator spell and wondered to myself why Willow couldn't ever find a SO who wasn't demonic. I'm calling werewolves demons since everything non-human in Buffy seems to be one.



By this point in the season, it was clear that Tara was the fourth replacement character for characters lost from season 3 so I suspected that she might be like Oz in that the demon was something that came out only some of the time and I just wanted her to tell Willow. Apparently, ME's initial idea was that Tara was a wood sprite, rather different than what I suspected, but they ended up going with an idea similar to mine, the demon coming out at a certain age.



Except they pulled a twist on the ending like in the story of Psyche and Cupid, which fits well with Willow as Psyche since she's the spirit of the group. When Psyche really sees Cupid in the legend, she realizes that he's not the terrifying serpentine monster she was told he was; likewise when Willow really sees Tara in Family, she discovers that Tara is not the demon she claimed to be.

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"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

Edited by: darkmagicwillow at: 5/19/03 10:35:34 am

[Garner]

GG, we will probably always disagree that the forget spell was in or out of character, and that Wrecked was worth anything. And probably a couple of other variations stemming fromboth of these.



When I first saw Hush I thought Tara was very nice and sweet. She reminded me a little of Willow, but I liked the character. I caught the W/T stuff with the floating rose, and definitely with YG and WAY. As for the demon locator spell gone awry, I figured that it would be MEs out to sabotage the obvious direction W/T were going in. Frankly I didn't think they had the balls to do a lesbian relationship, and once they did that Tara would turn out to be a demon, and thus couldn't stay and would be killed or driven off. Something like that. Because I figured W/T were not permanent, though I will admit NMR sort of surprised me, but they still had their out, I really liked that Tara was not a demon in Family. That surprised me more than anything else. I was also very happy to see the group defend her.



Of course now we know that Tara really was expendable, just there to be killed, and that the way it would be worked was not her being a demon or evil, and I never really thought she would be evil, I just figured she's a demon and that would be that. I am not certain if the way things did play out was better or not. Since we got a lot more W/T as they did it I suppose that is better.



LWT, while I don't disagree with you analysis or the points you make in your latest observations on season sux, I think this also shows one of the problems with it. BtVS is supposed to be a fun, entertaining, maybe epic but at least heroic, show. Too much worry about the hidden meanings and truths about becoming adults or dealing with various crap might be part of what killed this show. I am not blaming you here, you are just picking up on what Mutant Enema showed. However, if they had been more concerned about delivering something that kept the heroism, kept the fun, that re-affirmed female empowerment and maybe even the uplifting message that good can triumph and love does sometimes last, their ratings might have stayed higher and the show might still be going. Or at least it wouldn't be the crap fest it is now. But then I like a nice rollicking adventure story so what do I know?



Garner

[sam7777]

Quote:

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BtVS is supposed to be a fun, entertaining, maybe epic but at least heroic, show.

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Garner agreed. This is why I almost gave up on the show after season 5. They forgot the fun. IMHO the "dark" stuff that they did in season 6 was more about plot holes and bad writing than it was about the "literalness" of being a young adult. They had some good ideas. I liked the idea of Willow and Tara breaking up and then getting back together because I hoped they could show us some of the stuff they couldn't show us in season 4 like actual intimacy. They could have contrasted Willow and Tara to say something about power and responsibiltiy using magic as the catalyst. Having responsibility is one of the main differences between your teenage and adult years. Basically they missed the boat on Willow/Tara in season 6 IMHO.

_____________________

I see dead lesbian cliches

[Gatito Grande]

LWT, I really love your Season Six Musings. You see a literary-psychological dimension that I missed (or am too shallow/ill-informed to catch!).



Again, just the tiniest quibble: in the enjoining spell (Primeval), Buffy is "manus": the hand. While the other 3 (W, X & G) give their abstract gifts (strengths), Buffy is embodies the physical hand which can and will destroy Adam.



GG Do you have a background in Lit Crit, LWT? Digging the metaphors! Out

[LostWithoutTara]

GG – You got me – kinda! I’m a psych student. Thanks for pointing out about Buffy being the hand in the enjoining spell– I hadn’t forgotten, honestly…



Garner – Again, my view on S6 is that the ideas (except for the obvious) were fine, just not the form of application and execution, of which ‘Wrecked’ is the classic example. My ‘musings’ notes just boiled it down to the minimum and I think within that context the story works. It’s just the way in which it was done with the appallingly overdone drug theme that ruined it. S6 was okay in the beginning, but after TR it fell apart.



And like you said, the balance was the major problem. If Willow and Buffy were going to fall and have problems, the other characters should have helped them through it instead of everyone having to suffer.



But at the end of the day, this is just conjecture. I can’t and don’t want to change anyone’s mind on S6. I think that it sucked too, I’m just trying to decipher what ME really wanted to say beneath the soap-opera antics.

[xita]

Honestly, fundamentally, I think I am opposed to any storyline that brings about a Dark magic Willow. I don't think she'd ever have it in her heart to want to destroy people. She is an insecure girl who could lash out in anger, but not at the world and I really don't think they sold me even when they went to extremes to get her there. For me story should be born from character and while Willow is certainly insecure and in some ways power hungry, there is nothing in her through season 5 that would convince me she'd go that far.

[darkmagicwillow]

I don't believe Willow would have attempted to destroy the world either, and I can't see the point of adding that element to the story anyway other than the fact that season finales are supposed to be apocalyptic. The only way I could see Willow doing something like that is if she was doing something to help that had the unkown consequences of opening the Hellmouth, etc. Even in The Gift, I think Willow would've sacrificed Dawn to save the world if it had come down to that choice for her, though she would've hated herself for doing so.

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"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

[Garner]

I also have agreed that many of the ideas in Season Sux were not that bad, but poorly executed. I don't mind an exploration of Buffy and Spike's feelings for each other, or even some Spuffy if it weren't based on abuse. I don't have huge problems with W/T breaking up and getting back together (more taking a break perhaps) if done right and NOT part of the same damn season where we lose W/T period. That's just too much! With DMW I can buy that if it is more a dark influence from the darkest magics. Dark magic could have woken the negative parts in Willow, or led to her getting possessed by those dark powers and that could have gotten us DMW without Tara's death. The way it was done was hideous! I also don't see Willow ever destroying the earth, and her having the power to do that is stupid also. She really shouldn't have been the next Sauron or whatever super power wizard you can think of. Again as sad, poor execution. But then Joss had as one of his base ideas that Tara should die and not come back, and that is intolerable and wrong. She shouldn't have been permanently killable, end of story.



Garner

[DarkRed]

Just a little note on DMW. the way i saw it (and think it's what Joss intended), the magics had a great influence on willow, actually altering her behaviour.

at first she 'sucked' Osiris, the Egyptian god of Death, plus some dark magics books. so her powers came from a place of darkness and death and so were her actions (defying death-with Buffy- or pursuing it -with Warren). she wasn't truly evil, only sought out her vengeance.

than she sucked Rack dry, he was a drug dealer, truly oblivious to his surroundings, willing to sell for a price no matter the consequences- and had a mean attitude. and so became willow. taunting Dawn, playing around, willing to harm anyone who's in her way.. including her firends. (notice that at the start -ep20- she did not do so.. only pushed them out of her way but not harming them)

after the little 'pick-me-up' from giles, whos magics came from the coven-the true, good/natural source- willow started feeling, or if you'd like- maybe became more Willow.. thus allowing xander to connect to her memories and emotions and break her.



so the way i see it, it's not a question of character, cuz it wasn't supposed to be in her character, wasn't supposed to be Willow who did all these things.

hhhmmm.. not explained in the best way i know. you can connect the peaces yourself if you got my idea..that's all.



luv. anne.

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Hear that baby? You're my Always.

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[xita]

I am not going to get into this because it will lead to season seven discussion that is off topic. But I don't think it was played that way, Willow was supposed to feel guilty over that stuff, no one let her off the hook like certain other characters. Whatever.



They make no sense. And isn't worth discussing.



I did like the break up story line though. I am not opposed to angst. I think the way they saw magic is certainly a point of contention. One thing that I think few people saw Tara is a bit of a big knowledge woman. I can see that being a conflict for them. THey would have to learn to talk through that. I still haven't seen a good fic that deals with those problems, their inter personal problems. They needed to be able to deal with conflict better than they did. Fic always tend to go the whole dark magic thing. I don't think it's that simple.

[darkmagicwillow]

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I think the way they saw magic is certainly a point of contention. One thing that I think few people saw Tara is a bit of a big knowledge woman. I can see that being a conflict for them. THey would have to learn to talk through that.

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I'm not sure that either of them has the right approach to magic. Willow has a cookbook approach where she only looks for solutions to immediate Scooby problems, which seems terribly out of character for a person so inquisitive and intelligent. Tara has a tradition bound approach which worked well at home, but which isn't so useful on the Hellmouth where the Scoobies regularly need powerful spells to save them from foes like Adam and Glory.



We don't have too much to go on for their conflict before the unbelievable addiction idea comes up: just Tara's surprise over Willow casting the fiat lux spell and Tara's mention that Willow's growing power frightens her in Tough Love. We don't know why Tara is worried, and we aren't told enough about magic to know if her worry is justified, so it's hard to tell what this means. Of course, a problem like that is an opportunity for fic writers, but I suspect that lack is why it's not widely dealt with.

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I still haven't seen a good fic that deals with those problems, their inter personal problems. They needed to be able to deal with conflict better than they did. Fic always tend to go the whole dark magic thing. I don't think it's that simple.

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Unfortunately we don't really know what their interpersonal problems are, which I think is why fic rarely go into depth about this. I'm curious to see what you and the other kittens see here. As you say, Tough Love makes it clear that they don't know how to deal with conflict, but the glimpse we get of their personal problems is so short and sudden that it's hard to know what to make of them. Willow starts the discussion with her simple insecurity about not knowing what to do about Buffy/Dawn, but her other reactions are responses to Tara's problems so we don't get to see what's going on inside her.



We do see that Tara has perhaps long-held worries about both Willow's magic use and her sexual orientation, but we don't know why she's bothered about Willow's magic use. Is she afraid of Willow outgrowing her or something more? I don't think Tara could've known about magic addiction and if she did, she would've been criminally negligent (along with Giles) for not mentioning it to Willow. I can't see either of them pointlessly withholding such essential information, and it seems clear that the writers came up with magic addiction after season 5.



It's frustrating that we don't get a resolution to their argument or see why Tara changed so much from the end of season 5 to the beginning of season 6.

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"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

[Gatito Grande]

I'm rather insecure about raising the following. I tried asking it once before on the Kitten, and it got deleted. However, I was new then (and probably obnoxiously stepped on some toes). It's just an issue that fascinates me---and maybe ripe for fanfic, but I digress . . .*



So the issue is this: Tough Love - Spiral - Weight of the World - The Gift I don't know exactly how long a period of time this was, only that Tara was mentally incapacitated for a good portion thereof.



A "Hellgod brainsuck" is obviously not in your standard medical psychiatry/neurology text, so we can't know this disability's exact parameters. But, on the basis of what we were shown, how do you think it affected Willow and Tara's relationship (specifically)? We know that Willow (devotedly) took on a care-taking role, but, having said that, care-takers have all kinds of relationships, from strictly professional to . . . ?



What I'm trying to get at is this: there seems to be a gray area in terms of sexual consent when it comes to the mentally handicapped. On the one hand, we all cringe in revulsion when we hear about an orderly violating a developmentally-disabled person in an institutional setting.



But what about the other end of the scale? For example, in a couple that's been married (or "married") for 50 years, where one partner has Alzheimer's, who is *better qualified* than the care-taking spouse to say whether their disabled partner can (still) consent to sex?



I guess you can see where I'm going w/ this: it's clear to me that Willow was still "romantic" and physically intimate (to some degree) w/ Tara when she was, uh, "suck-sick." How intimate?



Maybe the better way to put it is, if you were Willow (and therefore, Tara was "your everything"), what would you do?



GG Mods, I really hope my phraseology passes muster. I'm not trying to scandalize anyone, I just think it's a really interesting issue. Those of us who are in---or wanna be in--- long-term partnerships may face it someday! Out



*The classic fic on this subject is Colleen McCullough's Tim (twice made into a movie). It's also been used as a template in at least one genre of fan fiction, "Uber Xena" (a terrific unfinished story called "Perfect Pitch"), and probably others as well.

[xita]

It is clear Willow still feels romantic, but I am not sure at all where you get that they were sexual. She was affectionate and loving, perhaps even motherly, other things I just don't see. I really don't. I think Willow cuddled with Tara, and showed her affection, I see NOTHING to suggest sex.

[urnofosiris]

I never had a problem with the brainsucking storyline because I had faith it would end well, hum well, that faith was misplaced eventhough it did end well. I liked the story because it showed how deeply Willow loves Tara, just in case anyone missed that fact before, heh. Willow was prepared to take care of her forever if need be. She loves Tara, that was clear, that love shone through in every look and touch she and Tara shared, there is romance in that, but I did not see anything sexual in Willow's actions. The entire storyline took place in the space of three days while they were running from a hell god in the company of her friends, so there is no way I can believe anything other than hugging went on, not ever. Even if this had lasted for 30 years instead of 3 days, I can easily see Willow caring and loving Tara and being affectionate, but that's it.

Oh and thinking about that final episode again, I just loved the way Willow said "she's with me". The look on her face. Just awesome.

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Coffee, Food, Kisses and Gay Love........Get it while you are hot

Edited by: DrG at: 5/21/03 10:38:50 am

[sam7777]

I think ME really missed the boat on the magic thing. I think DarkRed is right about what ME was trying to do but it really makes no sense to me. They did a bait and switch which is poor wrting IMHO. They started off with a power storyline and then made Willow a victime of the magic. I found it misogynist. Why should the woman be a victim of the power and lose contrl? It speaks to me that ME was saying that "girls" can't handle power. What they should have done is compare Willow and Tara's appraches to magic as a metaphor for the morality of power use IMHO.

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I see dead lesbian cliches

[Garner]

I also don't see any sign that Willow was anything but supportive and nurturing for Tara while she was brainsucked. There is just no sign that anything sexual occurred. And I doubt it would have either.



As for the magic and Willow and Tara's approaches. Well it seems to me that it really had nothing to do with anything but the way the writers wrote the show. Tara is a third removed character, and thus will not have her approach to magic detailed and will not use it actively because that would take away from Willow, who is more important. I doubt they had any idea of different approaches or anything else. Similarly they had no idea how magic worked in general or overall and just made it up from ep to ep to do what they needed it to to advance the plot. I give them no credit for any thought into the matter or the situation at all. Remember that they seem to think the drama comes from pain and abuse and having a couple be able to talk about differences, work through them, and remain strong and together is just too foreign to Joss's point of view. There was a lot of room for some cool develpoments and tension between W/T, but they were so not the focus of the show that it never crossed the writer's minds to explore these areas. Tara was there as a tool to make Willow go bad and nothing more.



Garner

[LostWithoutTara]

With regards to the brain suck, my impression is that Willow just took care of Tara like a mother would - cuddles and kisses on the cheek/forehead, but nothing beyond that.