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‘My Girl’ – A Detailed Analysis of Willow and Tara's r'ship

Anything about Willow & Tara, Alyson Hannigan and Amber Benson.

Forget

Postby darkmagicwillow » Wed Apr 16, 2003 9:53 am

Garner wrote:

I do think that the forget spell was out of character. Sure, if the argument was that bad and Tara seemed intent on leaving, though in Tough Love it is Willow that storms out, not Tara, she might, might, use magic on Tara, but I doubt it. Willow is too kind and loving to abuse Tara like that. Especially after what Glory did to her and the aftereffects that we never got to see. No, I don't buy the spell at all, fears or not.
I don't think Willow stopped to take the time to see the spell as abuse; she initially saw it simply as a way to undo a mistake. I don't see that it's closely related to Tara's experience with Glory, so I don't think that would come up with Willow even if she did take time to think about it. Willow has always been impetuous with her use of magic--the "will be done" spell in Something Blue and the de-lusting spell she was going to do in Lover's Walk are only a couple of times she's displayed that trait.



DarkRed, Willow's life and magic does follow a progression into the darkness, ever increasing until she meets Tara in season 4. I think Tara saved her from that fall, but when she loses Tara in Tough Love, she resumes her spiral into darkness. However, I don't believe that she would knowingly harm Tara, even in season 6. As for liking season 6, I like angst and so do most viewers; that's not why people disliked that season. However, I hated the writing which ranged from inconsistent at best to incoherent at worst.

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

darkmagicwillow
 


Re: Season 6

Postby Hemiola » Wed Apr 16, 2003 11:23 am

No, DarkRed, you are not the only one who liked Season 6. I enjoyed a great deal of it, with the obvious exception of the end of "SR" and its follow-ups:( . I especially liked the following aspects of the season:



1. Confident Tara--we got to see her serve as a great emotional support to both Buffy and Dawn--very moving with the sympathy/empathy; and then there were those deliciously snarky remarks she made to Spike in "OAFA".:)



2. "Horndog" Willow in "OMWF", "Entropy", and the earlier parts of "SR":D

Hemiola
 


Re: Season 6

Postby DarkRed » Wed Apr 16, 2003 11:36 am

oh that kiss.... it was worth the whole bad stuff coming before it (making up is always good )



it's too bad though, that we only got to see W&T loving cuz she will be dying later on

DarkRed
 


Re: Season 6

Postby LostWithoutTara » Wed Apr 16, 2003 2:07 pm

S6 could have been really strong - it had good ideas (except for Tara's death and the ensuing storyline), but I found that it lacked in execution. The writers seemed to forget that dark is not a synonym of depressing and dreary. I love angst, but there is a point where it gets too much. To break characters down successfully, you must make the audience feel empathy to them. This shouldn't be done by turning said character into a crackwhore/abuser/attempted rapist/whiny brat.



In All The Way, Willow's abuse of her magic is horrifying. She deliberately chooses to violate Tara's mind, knowing what happened with Glory. Isn't that rape?



And it was horrible the way they set W/T back up just so they could kill Tara. That gets a big :puke from me for being cold , calculating and manipulative.



But now I'm getting off topic in my own thread, so I'd better stop now. :) :bigwave

LostWithoutTara
 


Re: Season 6

Postby chilled monkey » Wed Apr 16, 2003 2:39 pm

Well I agree with Garner, as regards S6 not being 'real'. I don't consider it part of the continuity. I definately agree with the fact that Willow would never have done the 'forget' spell.



LostWithoutTara: Keep up the good work. And could you please post the thread you mentioned before. It sounds like it could be interesting.

chilled monkey
 


Re: Season 6

Postby urnofosiris » Wed Apr 16, 2003 2:42 pm

Quote:


She deliberately chooses to violate Tara's mind, knowing what happened with Glory. Isn't that rape?






No it isn't. It isn't at all. What Willow did was wrong, that is not in question, but she did not do it to control Tara, she did not do it to hurt her, she did not do it to exert power or even control over her. She took the easy way out of a fight because she could not stand the fact that Tara was angry with her. It was wrong for sure. There is much that can be criticized about season 6 or how they made Willow act and whether it was in character or not. I feel it was out of character and blame it on crappy story writing, but it still wasn't rape. We have had this argument before on the board and I request we don't go there again.



Just a general reminder, any post SR discussion (and that also includes anything after "that's the best part") off topic on the board, we all know what happened onscreen, but well, ME can keep that story and that show and we'll keep Willow and Tara.

-------------------------


Coffee, Food, Kisses and Gay Love........Get it while you are hot

Edited by: DrG at: 4/16/03 1:43:30 pm
urnofosiris
 


Re: Season 6

Postby Garner » Wed Apr 16, 2003 4:10 pm

I'll just say that I agree that the forget spell wasn't rape, but it certainly was abusive and though perhaps not meant to control Tara, it ends up doing that anyway. Tara had the right to be angry and upset and for Willow to just wipe that away, that is control, as much as the type of control her father was trying to exert over her by making her think she had demon in her and was evil.



I do totally agree that Willow's attitude towards magic was much too cavalier and not respectful, but I don't know if I agree that she was abusing it. Magic should be a part of life, the world, and using it should be sort of worship of the God and Goddess and the various spirits of the Earth. The problem came in two places. One is season sux magic got way to easy to use. Come on, nose twinkles and wave of the hand and stuff happens. Magic got too easy and that isn't right. I blame the writers for this, very poor job. Second, when Willow turned to the Darkest Magics to take on Glory she had to have used some "evil" magics. Even if she didn't make a deal with "dark" forces for the power to take on Glory, she at least did access the darker part of her mind where revenge, murder and the baser human instincts and urges exist. There should have been consequences from THIS act. There weren't. It was never really addressed again and all sort of swept under the rug of addiction and abusing magic. If you play with evil, touch it or use it, it leaves a mark and that could have been a cool way to go. Willow did not approach magic responsibly and that would have taught her the reasons for doing so.



So I still say the forget spell was OOC, though a descent into darker magics or misuse wasn't. But as LostwithoutTara said, a lot season sux wasn't totally bad idea wise. It could have been good and gone somewhere. Instead they cheesed out taking the least imaginative options. A raise dead spell for Buffy, addiction for Willow, Xander dumps Anya at the altar. All these were basically the least satisfying way to go with what could have been interesting dilemmas. And the fact that everything ended badly worsened things. Hell, even Spike/Buffy could have been interesting. And I also agree that Tara was thrown back to Willow way too easily. Given that Tara was going to die they should have gotten back together earlier. I might not have minded the breakup so much if A. Tara didn't die, or B. they got back together sooner, or C. it was caused by something a bit more believable for Willow. Unfortunately they didn't do any of these and took the worst road.



Finally, I will admit that Buffy and Xander do have a slightly veiled discussion about Willow being gay in Family. They use Wiccan instead of lesbian, but the meaning is sort of obvious. Still, that is not the same as her and Xander, and probably Buffy too, really talking about what happened. But then since season sux started the group really hasn't been a group. For a supposedly close core that can take on anything together, ever since UPN they have been amazingly separate. And that's another of the tragedies and errors of season sux and beyond.



OK, I lied, lastly I think that if LostwithoutTara shows where they went wrong with Willow in season sux and messed up, that would make that analysis more interesting. That Tara truly got to develop is not in doubt. Still, there was much more they could have done with her if she had remained alive. What a waste.



Garner



Garner
 


Re: Season 6

Postby marcenik » Thu Apr 17, 2003 10:48 am

Ok...my 2 cents on the whole in character-out of character debate - The "forget spell" . Willow, historically, used magic as an emotional reaction to things. i.e. "Something Blue" and "Tough Love". Couple that with her feelings of guilt over what Glory did to Tara "after" they had had an argument, it is totally in character for Willow, out of fear and the fact that Tara was brainsucked after a fight, would make perfect sense, character-wise, that Willow would do the "forget spell". but I in no way believe that Willows intention was to hurt or control Tara. Perhaps, based on past history, she felt as tho she was somehow keeping Tara safe. for example : Argument = Tara got hurt, therefore, Making Tara forget argument = Tara safe.



For what it's worth....maybe this was more like 7 cents instead of 2 cents. :p

marcenik
 


Re: Season 6

Postby LostWithoutTara » Thu Apr 17, 2003 11:29 am

You make some really good points there, but I still have major problems with the forget-spell.



I feel that Willow did it to suit herself - she didn't want them to argue any more, and she knew that Tara was unhappy with her overuse of magic. So she wiped Tara's mind of the argument. Willow constructs who she is through her realtionships and through magic. She does not like it when either are threatened and will go to any length to prevent them being taken away, and her being restored to the 'loser' Willow. Regardless of intent, she still abused her power in doing that to Tara. Tara had a right to be angry and to express it and Willow took that right from her. She didn't even appear upset in the bedroom - she did it with a smile on her face. So while she may have rationalised it to herself as helping Tara, deep down she was helping herself by shaping things to her preference.

LostWithoutTara
 


Out of Character

Postby daddykat » Thu Apr 17, 2003 11:40 am

Actually Garner summed up a lot of my feelings about the over-all writing in Seas. 6. (also, thanks for calling the Maclay "demons" emotional ones; I'm great at long descriptive stuff but lousy at summing things up in a word.:blush ) But Wilow's alaways had some personality traits that make the "forget spell" at least plausible.



Putting on my long-retired psych major's hat, I've noticed a few things. (1) A tendency to self-centered immaturity with excessive clinging. Witness her reactions, even tho she was with Oz by then, to Xander's dating Cordelia and having sex with Faith. First season this little failing was actaully part of her cuteness, but as she became more outgoing and self-confident, it became less pleasant.

(2) Focussing on surface things; in "Lovers' Walk" she had realized the feelings between her and Xnader were interfering in their 'ships w Oz and Cordy. But instead of dealing with the feelings and the reasons *behind* them, she decides to erase them instead.

(3) In "becoming" yes, she was the only eprson who coyuld ahve done what she did, but it meant she was physically exposed to ultra-powerful magics before she was really ready.



Ad to those the natural human desire for quick fixes, and the "forget" spell becomes a logicall way for ehr to deal with an unpleasant situation, since from Willow's dialog in the ep. she wasn't grasping the heart of Tara's objections.



As to a heart-to-heart w Xander, with or without Buffy there, that's one of the many interesting scenes we've never been shown but which we KNOw had to have happened. As for her parents, they're (a) so detached from their daughter emotionally (b) so hung up on their own fashionably leftie attitudes, it probably wouldn't have been much to see.

daddykat
 


Re: Season 6

Postby ukxenafan » Thu Apr 17, 2003 1:56 pm

Lots of interesting points here. I wanted to raise a couple of things that were in The Body.



Firstly, someone mentioned that they thought it was odd, Tara saying her mother's death wasn't sudden but WAS sudden. This doesn't have anything to do with demon-ness IMO, but its an observation about death of a loved one. Even when someone has been ill for a while, even terminally, their death is STILL sudden - death is like that. I still think in years to come The Body will be an ep people will watch and admire, in a very different way to the rest of the series.



Also, something else on this ep that I just noticed for the first time yesterday - so sorry if its dead obvious and everyone knows anyway.

I just love that W/T scene where we get frantic weepy Willow and calm and compassionate Tara. At the end of this scene though, when Xander has punched the wall and they are about to leave for the hospital, Tara comes back after hunting for the blue sweater and goes to Willow. What I hadn't spotted before is that Willow mouths "I love you" to her, just before Tara takes her hands. It's not on the subtitles, but its definitely there. (Wonder if it was scripted?)



Despite all the anguish of the scene, Tara is such a rock of strength for Willow here, and it was so cute that we had that first kiss and the I love you :D

ukxenafan
 


Re: Out of Character

Postby Garner » Thu Apr 17, 2003 6:25 pm

UKxenafan, I had not noticed that before in The Body and will have to rewatch that and see if I can spot it.



As for the forget spell. One of the differences with it is that it is very personal and directed at one individual. In Something Blue she is basically trying to cast a spell on herself, and in Tough Love she is out for revenge and is pissed and so is going to use magic to get even with Glory. Neither of these situations is anywhere near abusive. Even the de-lusting spell she was going to do on her and Xander, which is getting closer to misuse, was not quite the same and she ended up not casting the spell (granted at Xander's interference mostly, but still). Now maybe this is a better precedent for the forget spell, but in this case she really was trying to make things better for others, not herself specifically. My biggest problem with the forget spell is that it has her putting her own interests over Tara's. She is fixing things to the way she wants it. I don't see her doing that to Tara. She has just cared for her while mindless, was willing to do so for as long as necessary, and must have seen some lingering affects of the mind suck that summer. She is too sensitive, caring and in love with Tara to do something so intrusive to her, for so little reason.



I also maintain that the insecurities and nerd fears got over-emphasized in season sux and that was mostly to try and get the magic addiction storyline and drive off Tara plot to hold water. For me that will never be the case.



Garner



Garner
 


Re: How ME messed up Willow S6

Postby LostWithoutTara » Fri Apr 18, 2003 11:11 am

Season Six and the downfall of Willow



Before I start, the first part of this post is something I have posted on another site (albeit with a different username), so if you see it, don’t think I’m plagiarising anything! I’ve modified it somewhat from my original thoughts to explain and add more detail. PS – I’m aware of the differences in opinion over whether Willow abused magic/ mind-raped Tara, and mine is that she did both. I DON’T want to get into an argument about it, it’s just my opinion. My rewrite eliminates these problems and shows what I believe should have happened.



For me, Season Six went stale at ‘Wrecked’. I have to say that on paper (and spoiler free), I was looking forward to it – an episode written by Marti Noxon (who has written some of Buffy’s best sad/dramatic episodes. Not even Joss can write heartbreak like she can. Compare Amends to Wild At Heart.) centring around my favourite character, Willow and my favourite Buffy actress, Alyson Hannigan. Plus we were going to get fallout from Buffy and Spike. Things couldn’t be better. And then I saw it. Oh. God.



I’m aware the reason that this episode has been lambasted is because of the heavy-handed drugs metaphor, but that isn’t what bothered me. In fact, the car crash with Dawn was fine by me as well (never having been exposed to anything like an after-school special, although I can see how it would be different to those of you who’ve had them rammed down your throats by other people). I found the trips interesting and cool to see, Jeff Kober played Rack really creepily, and Willow’s breakdown at the end was beautifully played by Aly.



But it just didn’t fit with anything we’d seen before on Buffy. And when a core character’s storyline does a 180, it’s a reason for alarm. Before Wrecked, we’d seen solely one inference to magic being used in order to induce euphoria – Giles’ recollection of his participation in the summoning of Ehygon in ‘The Dark Age’. In ‘Wrecked’, magic suddenly transforms into an all-powerful, consuming drug that nearly destroys a character who’s been practising for several years who has never displayed an inkling of any kind of dependency on the use of magic to satisfy a biological craving.



And that is what infuriates me. Willow has never been addicted to magic in any way, shape or form. True, she abused it numerous times (‘All The Way’, ‘Tabula Rasa’, nearly in ‘Wild At Heart’) but that was never because she had to. She acted selfishly in order to benefit herself, and even worse, tried to pretend that she was doing it for the benefit of others (e.g. ‘Tabula Rasa’ – she wanted to wipe Buffy’s memory not only to relieve Buffy of her suffering but to remove her sense of guilt in engineering the entire resurrection). All of these actions were undertaken of her own free will when she was in full control of her actions.



After ‘Wrecked’, we’re treated to the typical recovery/rehab, which seems surprisingly brief and painless for someone supposedly horribly addicted. Sure, she has the shakes, but that’s it. It’s as if the writers knew the addiction was a load of crap and tried to cover it up as best as it could.



First of all, I don’t know if it’s ever become apparent why Willow suddenly became addicted. Well, there is a reason: poor planning by the writers. I read an interview with Marti Noxon and she said that the staff never stopped to think that Spuffy and BMW would be going on at the same time. If Willow had continued toying with the black magics, her eventual transformation would have still occurred, but her abuse of magic would discourage viewer empathy, and with Spuffy also occurring, the show’s three main characters would all lack sympathy from the viewers. That’s a dangerous place to be, if viewers lack empathy they won’t care what happens: ratings fall, bad for the show. So the staff want to keep Spuffy going, so they decide to make the viewers feel sorry for Willow – hence addiction and making Willow a victim rather than an abuser.



So at the start of the rewrite we have a couple of story requirements – we need to obtain dark Willow at the end of the Season, but without destroying any affection/sympathy that viewers have for her. I prefer that DMW takes up only three episodes, as any longer ‘deflates’ the story and removes its poignancy, IMO. But the key factor is that we have to prevent the obvious. No death. Tara got some good character development in early S6, but she was pretty much discarded after W/T broke up and only came back to act as a plot device. We have to remove that and give Tara a better role for the mid-season. Here’s what I propose. I’m going to work within the story parameters on the show, so no 100% brand new things, just make some modifications to show how easily the story could have been written without OOC behaviour and resorting to the cliché.



5.19 – ‘Tough Love’ - The first thing has to occur here. I believe that Willow constructs her perfect identity using both Tara and magic. Her anger after Tara is brain-sucked is fine, as is her attack on Glory. But Willow shouldn’t have unlimited power. After being creamed by Glory, she should begin to develop an inferiority complex about her magic use and failure to save Tara from Glory – therefore she decides to obtain an external power source.



5.20 – 5.22 ‘Spiral – The Gift’ – Willow has to continue using powerful black magic in order to lead the group. She begins to heavily tire from this extended use of her power. In The Gift, Willow restores Tara’s mind, as she did on screen. But instead of Spike trying to save Dawn from Doc, it should be Willow – using magic. Doc discards her, she falls but Tara saves her from being killed by use of her own magic. Buffy dies. Now Willow has a real reason to blame herself for the death, and to desire to make things right by restoring Buffy. But does she have the power?



6.01, 6.02 – ‘Bargaining’ – Events of the summer occur. Willow is finding it extremely hard to fight off demons every night using her magic – researches ways to obtain more power. Research leads her to Rack, who offers to increase her power for cash. This way, we get the drugs angle without it being so OTT. Willow also mentions that the only other ‘safe’ resurrection spell she knows requires three human hearts. After visiting Rack, Willow finds she can use powerful magic easily – performs the resurrection, and this can also explain the Sabrina-esque ‘point-and-zap’ magic use, as Willow has enough power now to not require the incantations etc.



6.03-6.05 can remain the same. Bit of concern from Tara over Willow’s sudden power surge and eagerness to use black magic. Willow telling her not to worry – shutting her out as she wants to appear a strong leader to the Scoobs. Willow finds that her own power is diminishing and she is reliant on what Rack gives her = Willow going back for more power from Rack.



6.06 – ‘All The Way’ – No mind-wiping but big scale argument over Willow’s lack of respect for magic. Willow feels that she has to do it to protect her friends, or that there is no problem as she’s not hurting anyone.



6.07 – ‘OMWF’ - As it happened (except for the Tara finding-out bit as that never happened). Willow going back for more power from Rack (Can you imagine him singing!! J)



6.08 – Willow does the forget spell, even after Tara warns her not to. Tara is furious, still leaves her. (This may seem a bit sudden, but if my partner disregarded my opinion on something important so casually I’d question what was going on in the relationship.) Willow is convinced she’s done nothing wrong as she was trying to help her friends – Tara is just overreacting.



6.09 – The nerds steal the diamond. Instead of researching, Willow decides to summon a demon to hunt the thieves down. Again, she goes back to Rack as her power is dwindling faster and faster – so she needs more.



6.10 – Willow takes Dawn to Rack’s – she’s become more and more dependant on him. Car crash caused by the demon Willow summoned. Willow breaks down, Buffy throws her out for nearly killing Dawn. Willow goes to Tara, who takes her in, reminded of the time Willow cared for her. She makes it clear that this is not an invitation to continue their relationship. Willow accepts that she was out of control and decides to leave magic alone for a while.



6.11 – 6.18 – Willow slowly recovers, attempts to put things right with Buffy and Dawn. She and Tara tentatively begin to rekindle their romance, one step at a time. Willow’s own power is returning to her after her period of rest. She and Tara perform a few simple spells.



6.19 – Scoobs (X, W, T) go over to Buffy’s to finally sort things out over what happened earlier. Warren shoots Buffy, Tara and Xander. Xander dies (let’s face it, would the show suffer without him?) Buffy and Tara are close to death and taken to hospital.



6.20 - Willow completely freaks, returns to black magic to save Buffy and Tara, then decides to take out Warren. She drains the magic books, finding the three-heart resurrection spell (remember, she’d want to help Xander, what with him being her best friend of 17 years). The dark power within the books is changing her for the worse. She kills Warren and rips his heart out.



6.21 – Willow continues to spiral out of control, going after the other nerds. Buffy and Tara try to stop her; she attacks them, not understanding why they won’t let her do the spell to bring Xander back. Willow kills Rack and drains him – her statement about having surpassed the need for his power. Giles arrives.



6.22 – Willow drains Giles, fights him, Buffy and Tara. Decides to destroy the world etc. Tara goes after her and stops her, saying how she knows that Willow is still there and she loves her regardless of how Willow has acted or how Willow feels about herself. Therefore, evil world-destroying lesbian is counteracted by good world-saving lesbian – no cliché.



Okay, I know that’s not brilliant, mainly because there are several faults still in the story. But I believe this is much more in character for Willow than what actually happened. Again, I don’t mean this to be a full comprehensive rewrite – I just did it to show that ME could have still done what they wanted with the character without making her a ‘junkie’ and using the cliché.



































LostWithoutTara
 


Re: Out of Character

Postby Garner » Fri Apr 18, 2003 4:19 pm

LostwithoutTara, that was a very good set of changes for Season sux. The only thing you don't accomplish is making Xander the hero for the season, which unfortunately does seem to have been part of Joss' program. However, I do agree that your version is certainly more in character for Willow. I also like the idea that at a certain point Willow is so powerful that she would be able to bypass the incantation style of magic that was the norm before. My only quibble is that I don't see her needing to destroy the world in this version, or specifically wanting to. Otherwise it would have been tons more fun to watch. But then hey, Tara ends up alive and that can't be bad. And Amber is used more in the season. Also a big advantage. Good job.



Garner



Garner
 


Re: How ME messed up Willow S6

Postby DarkRed » Fri Apr 18, 2003 8:37 pm

Wow! now that was indeed much more reasonable than S6 went on... i don't think though that S5 should've been altered cuz it was good the way it was. i totally understood Willow in S6 with her desire to bring Buffy back even without the guilt feelings.

the start of S6 as You put it is much more 'realistic' to the charecter of willow, great way of introducing Rack!

i also Loved 'Wrecked' but thought the storyline for that 1 episode should've been stretched over more episodes so your way is much more reasonable.



however, as i've said before, except for that ep' in which things did advance way too fast (her 'recovery' also), i still believe that willow was on a way to destruction with the magics long ago. ME and Joss should have simply done it a different way -something more similar to what you've suggested LostWithoutTara - but they've done that before.. leaving us in the dark i mean.



a season of Buffy goes like this: starts a few days before school starts, and ends during summer vacation. it worked well for the first S of Buffy but i think that in S6 they really should've shown more of the Scoobies without Buffy.. it could've explained many things that we had to speculate, like Willow's decline to magics and Tara's respond to it.. i kinda felt like i got into a play in the middle and missed the start, cuz tara was obviously not o.k with the ressurection spell ( as we could see in Bargaining- tara's response to Xander was: "because it's not right, it's against all laws of man and nature.." -something like that- and if you look closely you can see Willow looking at her all offended like they have argued about this before).



that's the downfall i think for buffy writers.. maybe it's because they really can't fit so much into 22 ep, or maybe they have some restrictions from powers above, but still there are things they could've elaborated about, so we wouldn't feel so: "Huh?!? now where did that come from?



the only thing that doesn't make sense in your rewrite is that Buffy wouldn't throw willow out, Never. but that's the only thing you got wrong there, the rest is realy good.





P.S- Joss continually said that he killed Tara for the story line cuz nothing else would've driven Willow over the edge.. you brought another great reason why sh'ed go nuts. :)

However.. why don't you like Xander?? :/



anne.

Quote:
"I felt like putting a bullet between the eyes of every Panda that wouldn't screw to save its species."


DarkRed
 


Re: How ME messed up Willow S6

Postby LostWithoutTara » Sat Apr 19, 2003 4:52 am

Oh, I don't really hate Xander... it's just that by Seeing Red he was really annoying me with his whining and complaining. Plus he dumped Anya at the altar. Not a good thing to do. I feel that he's been kind of peripheral since S4 has hasn't really done much.



With regards to Buffy thowing Willow out, I think it's kind of plausible. With being back from the dead and her relationship with Spike, Buffy was pretty fragile anyway. If my best friend (who I thought I could trust) took my little sister to a magical drug den, nearly killed her in a car crash and then almost got her munched by a demon, I'd be furious. I think the only thing that saved Willow in the real S6 is that Buffy rationalised what she was doing with Spike to an addiction, something she was not fully responsible for, in order to make herself feel better.



NOTE: If any mods feel this section breaches the FAQ, please delete it. But with the whole alternate S6 idea, it's hard not to mention it.



With Dark Willow, I think that death was the best way to bring her about, but ME was shortsighted and chose the easy, obvious option. It would only work if Buffy, Xander or Tara had died. Buffy has died twice before, so that would've been a bit pointless, so that only left Xander for me to kill. That way Willow kills Warren to aid a spell rather than out of malice and her subsequent actions, while nasty, are less evil. (Not that I'm saying murder and trying to kill your friends can ever be justified). :)



With the world-destroying, yeah, that is a problem, but I think it was supposed to be about her feeling pain as opposed to grief. This version keeps the pain from all the power she has and lets Tara save the day (which is definitely of the good.) :D

Edited by: LostWithoutTara at: 4/19/03 4:01:02 am
LostWithoutTara
 


Re: Part Seven - S5

Postby LostWithoutTara » Sun Apr 20, 2003 7:14 am

Part Seven – S5



Bit of a more general (and pretty short) section here as there aren’t any episodes specifically focussing on W/T after ‘Family’, until ‘Tough Love’. We see that Tara is happier and she and Willow have lots of cute little moments, such as their stargazing in ‘Listening To Fear’. We see our first bit of Tara interacting with Scoobs aside from Willow when she talks to Buffy in ‘Triangle’ (I know she spoke to Dawn before, but Dawn doesn’t really count as one of the gang yet) and she’s much more confident. When Joyce dies she is a rock for the devastated Willow, empathising with the feelings of grief for both her and Xander, and offering her support to Buffy. Tara has really become a big part of the group. She may not have super strength or be super-powerful with magic, but her maturity, wisdom and compassion make her a vital asset. She has experienced the loss and the sorrow. While the other Scoobs were out partying at the Bronze, Tara was being kept at home to work. She’s much more grown-up than any of the others. Willow may be very smart, but Tara is wise. This is evidenced in ‘Forever’ when Dawn wants to resurrect Joyce. Willow is uncertain because she doubts if they have the power. Tara is uncertain because she knows it is wrong. These two viewpoints show us how both girls view magic. Willow sees a science experiment – you mess up, you just tidy up with another spell. Tara has the proper respect and reverence for magical forces and wishes to uphold them. These contrasting viewpoints will ultimately create friction. It’s important to be aware of the fact that Tara has changed much more than Willow in S5. Her stutter is disappearing, she’s more confident. When their relationship began, Willow was dominant (as in more confident, not THAT way :D ) while Tara is subservient. But the dynamic is slowly changing and Tara is becoming more equal. Of course, she still holds some insecurities (as we all do) but she has changed for the better. Willow may still feel like she is the one in control. In a moment of weakness, she leads Dawn to the book referring to resurrection spells and Dawn attempts to bring Joyce back. We never know if the spell 100% worked, but Dawn realises that she cannot do it and tears Joyce’s photo up, breaking the spell. Tara is worried and upset about Dawn attempting the spell, but doesn’t twig that it was Willow who led her to it. Willow has a very guilty conscience from doing what she did behind Tara’s back, as even though she only wanted to help, it was still wrong.



So even though Willow and Tara love each other totally, they both have some problems that they need to discuss with the other. These issues come out in ‘Tough Love’, which is the next update.



LostWithoutTara
 


Re: How ME messed up Willow S6

Postby sam7777 » Mon Apr 21, 2003 11:07 am

LostWithoutTara: Enjoying your take on W/T. I agree that ME should have spent more time introing Rack. ME missed a big opportunity IMHO in season sux byt not using Tara as a good magic contrast to Willow's dark magic. I disagree that a death was necessary to make Willow go DMW. I think having both Buffy and Tara near death would have been enough. Killing Xander, however, would have been more daring (he was a regular character not recurring like Tara and Jenny). It would have made sense storywise especially in the light that his story has really been over since season 4. Xander could have died taking a bullet for Buffy letting him be the hero. I actually like Xander and it's too bad he wasn't given much to do in seasons 4-6 being replaced as the guy of the group by first Riley and then Spike.

_____________________

I see dead lesbian cliches

Edited by: sam7777  at: 4/21/03 10:09:51 am
sam7777
 


Re: How ME messed up Willow S6

Postby LostWithoutTara » Mon Apr 21, 2003 11:32 am

With Xander, I just felt that he'd become obsolete. I liked him, but he really began to bug me, so that's why I decided to kill him. I had other ideas with Rack. I feel that ME could use a drug metaphor without making Willow addicted. Perhaps Rack, instead of looking like a stereotyped drug dealer, could have been suited up and his place just like a normal house.



Willow versus Tara could have been amazing. We could see Tara find her true magical strength, reaffirming her place within the group while still allowing for a 'love conquers all' ending. I think that I will turn these ideas into a fanfic sooner or later, flesh them out and add a few bits. Maybe I could send it to ME and say 'this is how you should have written S6' :)

LostWithoutTara
 


Re: How ME messed up Willow S6

Postby sam7777 » Mon Apr 21, 2003 2:27 pm

Quote:
Willow versus Tara could have been amazing.
Yep would have been on a par with Buffy vs Angel in season 2. It also would have been an opportunity to use magic as a metaphor for power with good magic = reponsibility = Tara while bad magic = irresposibility = Willow. It would have also made sense since Tara had become a confident fully relaized woman for her to help Willow along that path. I think it would have been a great bookend to Willow taking care of Tara at the end of 5th season. Growing up is learning to take responsibility for your action and this is the main lesson we all learn in our 20's. Before legal age we can turn to our parents but after that we are on our own. When we make mistakes we pay for them.



Joss' idea of 20 somethings is more like that college kid who raped a girl and then had his parents send him overseas to evade resposibility. Yeah it happens but do we really want to see those kind of folks running free in our society? I don't. Redemption comes from our wanting to make ourselves better not from just saying sorry or feeling bad about it. Prisoners who earn early release do so more for being model prisoners and showing that they can function reponsibly in society and not just by showing remorse though that helps.



I think that if they really wanted to treat Tara as a person they would have given her an arc that had her helping Willow to be a better person. Not seeing this was my biggest dissappointment in season sux.

_____________________

I see dead lesbian cliches

sam7777
 


Re: How ME messed up Willow S6

Postby Garner » Mon Apr 21, 2003 2:29 pm

I tend to agree that since Season 4 Xander has been underused and probably the one who grew the least amongst the group. If they really wanted to show him as the heart of the group, joe everyday and all that he and Anya should have gotten married in mid season 5 after he had a stable job and the new place. That's what guys his age do. Job, place, wife. That might have shown him as the more mature one, they could have worked on his fears of turning out like his parents, worked on the whole now I am an adult with family responsibilities thing and contrasted that to Buffy who also had a family with Dawn, but had it thrust on her maybe before she was ready. Xander needed a change and he never got one. But then I don't think Joss understands adults or how to write them. So killing Xander in Alt Season six would have been fine. Hell, anything that keeps Tara alive would have been good.



I have always felt that Tara was more powerful than she was given credit for, and that it was mostly her own insecurities that kept her from fully expressing her will through magic. And I totally agree that she would have been much more of the "white" magic and that would have been a cool contrast to Willow. I never thought Tara's death was the only way to DMW. She touched evil magics in Tough Love and that should have cost her something. She had to accept help from somewhere to get the power to take on Glory, she had once before though unconsciously, when she restored Angel's soul. Outside influence would have been a fine story and Tara could have been the one to finally notice the problem and done something to pull Willow back from it and her own darker nature.



And they definitely needed to show more of the time while Buffy was gone. Willow's descent into magic as a quick fix or reliance on magic needed more grounding than what had come before. Magic was never a quick fix. Usually Willow suffered a while or tried other things before she turned to magic, and then the spells were not easy and took effort. That changes pretty suddenly in season sux, without full explanation for how or why. I also think people forget that Willow is impulsive and doesn't always think things through. She intended the book she showed Dawn to answer her questions and put her at ease, not lead her to a ressurrection spell. I think she was surprised that Dawn could go that far. I agree Tara has a much more responsible view towards magic than Willow did, but keep in mind she did agree to bringing Buffy back, wrong or not. That is another of those conversations between W/T that would have been nice to have seen.



Garner



Garner
 


Re: How ME messed up Willow S6

Postby DarkRed » Tue Apr 22, 2003 1:28 pm

Just something i noticed in regard to Garner's not: 'But then I don't think Joss understands adults or how to write them'.

in buffy's early seasons we all thought -or maybe just me- that Joss is the best writer, the most original, and the most truthful to real life that existed. and then came S6 which handled with the scoobie's growing up, it was about grown-up problems: raising a kid, dealing with social services, keeping a household, marriage, addictions, abbuse and rape.

Joss apparently isn't as familiar with those issues, or perhaps can't write about them... as much as i loved S6 ideas it's obviously wasn't writen as well and truthfully as the prev' ones.



I too, believe that Xander, as the normal guy in the gang, should've married anya.. even though that in the episode itself i really understood his fears cuz of his parents sucky marriage, still he should've given him and Anya a chance, i mean, if it really wouldn't have worked they could have divorced.. who said they have to stay in a marriage which makes them unhappy like his parents did ?? the more disturbing fact is that they don't come back together. i believe that they both learned a lot about themselves and should've returned afterwards. :no



S6 really underestimated Tara's magic power i think.. when we first met her she seemed to be a much better and expirienced witch than Willow. she had power that ran in the family, practised years with her mother, and knew the ways of Wiccans and respected them, thus didn't use magic the same way Willow did.. but still she was more powerful.

and than in S6 it seemed like she simply stopped. whenever they talked about Willow she was the powerful witch and tara was....?? remember in S5 finale buffy said to Glory:"you're dealing with two powerfull witches..." or something like that. when did Tara stopped being so powerfull?? that really annoyed me. :hmm :confused



well, that's it for now... hoping to see an update soon, liking your analysis very much!! :clap

DarkRed
 


Re: How ME messed up Willow S6

Postby Garner » Tue Apr 22, 2003 6:09 pm

DarkRed, I have to agree that I thought Tara's magic was much overlooked in Season sux and her power was definitely either downgraded, or Willow's bloated to too high a position. I could handle Willow being stronger, but the level of ability they have given her just seems like too much to me. But then I have always said that they broke the way magic worked in season sux and that is one of the reasons I hated it so much. That and I always would have thought that no matter how much Willow misused magic, her love for Tara would be stronger than that. That also seems to have been reversed and that pissed me off too.



I agree that the divorce route could have been taken. With today's divorce rate that wouldn't have even been that unusual. I still say they should have married in season 5 to give Xander more to do or early in season 6 to allow that to work out more.



Garner



Garner
 


Whew!

Postby daddykat » Wed Apr 23, 2003 2:34 pm

Here's proof of what I've been saying; the ME staff have lost the ability to manage a season-long arc since May of 2001. The 4 of you have come up with ideas that make the past 2 years *look* as ridiculous as they actually *were*. (DId that make sense?)

daddykat
 


Re: Whew!

Postby LostWithoutTara » Wed Apr 23, 2003 2:59 pm

Yep, it makes sense. ;)



As some general info, I hope to post 'Tough Love' tomorrow (24th April).

LostWithoutTara
 


Re: How ME messed up Willow S6

Postby ukxenafan » Wed Apr 23, 2003 3:00 pm

Sorry if this is a dumb thing to say, but was it REALLY established that Tara was a more powerful witch than Willow when she was introduced? Yes, she does say she's been practising for a long time, but I seem to remember it being Willow *leading* those spells to float the rose and find the demons etc.



Also, as for Xander marrying Anya (hey, I thought this was a W/T thread?? :D ) its often hard to remember how old they are all SUPPOSED to be! I was rewatching Checkpoint last night and always smile when Anya annouces she is 20 years old - not sure how old Emma C is, but a fair bit more than 20!!



In S6 they were all 20/21 which is pretty young to get married.

ukxenafan
 


Re: Whew!

Postby daddykat » Wed Apr 23, 2003 3:51 pm

I think Tara's longer years of practice enabled her to ahve more real control over how she was doing a spell,s o she could focus the energies more effectively. That's how she and Willow worked so well together.



I don't beilieve the real extent of Tara's power has ever been shown, and I think she sold herSELF short on that. But I'm inclined to take Tara's own statement in "TOugh Love" at face value; Willow is potentially powerful enough to be unnerving, both because she might reach a point of not needing anyone and also in a sheer physical danger way.



In my own futurefics, I maintain the distinction. Willow ahs more raw power available but less finesse in handling it and less control of her emotional states when casting. Tara has less "oomph" but more fine control. (Reversal of the opening scene of"Bargaining"; I usually have Tara doing the routine magic stuff, while Willow does science-nerd things like running the main command center and is available to boost Tara's spells when necessary.) Sometimes I throw Jonathan in for a triple-threat; I depict him as having the best memory for detailed rituals and magic languages. (Strictly professional; in one series, Jonathan goes home to Harmony, in the other to Katrina).



I posted a poem over at Blood Is Not Enough, where I ahev tara's s***e saying "You were the power and I was the base" although that is mainly addressing their emotional life.

daddykat
 


Re: Note

Postby LostWithoutTara » Thu Apr 24, 2003 11:08 am

Hi everyone. I'm afraid to say that I won't be able to make any posts for a couple of days as I'm absolutely exhausted. Once I've recovered a little I'll catch up all the bits I've missed.



Thanks. (Completely stressed) LWT

LostWithoutTara
 


Tough Love

Postby LostWithoutTara » Sat Apr 26, 2003 9:43 am

Part Eight – ‘Tough Love’



In ‘The Body’, Buffy was forced to face her own mortality and learn the true grief of losing someone. Angel may have gone, but he is still alive (well, he’s not really alive, but you know what I mean ;) ). Joyce is dead, gone forever, and they can’t change that. As Buffy has experienced her own private grief, so must Willow. And that is what happens in ‘Tough Love’.



In the episode, Willow feels like she is being pushed away by Buffy because she hasn’t experienced losing her mother. Tara explains that as much as Willow may have good intentions, she can’t understand what it’s like. Tara, however, can. She can empathise with how Buffy feels. Willow, perhaps for the first time since they began dating, feels like the supporting element in the relationship. And it’s not something she overly likes. She feels that Tara has been doing everything longer than her, and snaps when Tara tries to console her. It’s understandable to be hurt when your opinion is discarded, but Willow’s actions here are a little childish and lacking the maturity evident in Tara.



Their discussion hits another rocky point as Tara attempts to patch things up. She says that she’s not the big knowledge woman that she seems, and that Willow is an amazingly powerful witch. Unfortunately, she suffers a Freudian slip and blurts out that Willow’s power scares her. This is majorly bad as Willow instantly leaps to the defensive. She hates having her magic questioned, feeling like it is a direct attack on her perfect identity. On top of that, is raises the issue of whether Tara trusts her enough. Tara does, of course, but what she said still stands. Willow asks what about her scares Tara and Tara’s insecurities come flooding out.



Tara may have grown massively in confidence, but several months cannot eradicate 20-odd years of low self-esteem and perceived worthlessness/badness. So of course she worries where she’ll fit in in Willow’s future. Tara doesn’t look at herself and fully see the amazing person she is. She’s only just starting to, and may wonder if she deserves to have Willow. She knows that Willow has had a loving heterosexual relationship before and she’s uncertain if whether what they have is the same in Willow’s eyes, or whether Willow is simply experimenting with her sexuality. It’s important to note that deep down, both girls deeply love each other and know that, BUT their insecurities and self-esteems sometimes blind them to this fact.



Faced with the question of her magic, Willow quickly makes the argument about her sexuality (cleverly detracting from the point that Tara is uncertain about Willow’s magic use – especially true given Willow’s guilty conscience after helping Dawn in ‘Forever’). Like I said, she has a lot of cards on the table with the relationship and doesn’t want it to fail. She’s deeply upset that the woman she loves is uncertain, and storms out unhappily, moping in the Magic Box.



Tara goes to the world culture fair like they had planned, only to be set upon by Glory.



Willow is in a heightened emotional state, misinterpreting one of Giles’ statements that the argument is over as to meaning their relationship. But now she knows she and Tara can argue and still be together. When Glory’s minion reveals Glory is hunting for Tara, Willow is terrified. She runs out, heading to the World Culture fair.



Glory breaks Tara’s hand and her blood alerts Glory that Tara is not the key. She threatens Tara and tries to intimidate her into revealing the key’s identity. But Tara defies her – she’s tough and loyal, and won’t sell out her friends. If there was any doubt as to whether Tara deserved her Scooby wings, she definitely earns them now, protecting the gang no matter what the cost to herself. Glory learns that Tara won’t talk and mind-rapes her while Willow watches. Willow is devastated and holds Tara, now lost to her – possibly forever. She’s furious and wants revenge, taking dark magic supplies from the shop despite Buffy warning her that to attempt to hurt Glory would be like suicide.



I suppose it’s romantic in a twisted way, Willow wanting to avenge Tara, even though it may ultimately make it worse. Willow doesn’t think straight here – Tara has been hurt and she wants to lash out at the person responsible. An indication of Willow’s love and protectiveness for Tara, sure, but also a dumb thing to do. If Willow had been killed, Tara would have lost her for good and the gang would be minus a key member. Willow attacks Glory and does quite well, but she is not used to such powerful black magic and tires, nearly being killed by Glory before Buffy saves her.



The last scene is poignant. In its own horrible way, fate has shown Willow the grief Buffy has felt. I think what happens to Willow may in fact even be worse. She may have to live with Tara every day knowing that if she hadn’t overreacted during their argument, Tara might have been saved. That would be a horrible burden. But it is testament to Willow’s love that she will stand by Tara, even if she never recovers.







Next part is the last few episodes of S5 and then onto the land of controversy, season six. Comments are always of the good. Thanks, LWT.



LostWithoutTara
 


Re: Tough Love

Postby Garner » Sat Apr 26, 2003 10:27 am

LWT, nice analysis. Overall I agree with what you said. I do think it is interesting that it is Willow who brings up the sexuality questions, that I don't know if Tara would have. To an extent it is also interesting that Willow is the one that keeps picking at the argument after Tara tries to smooth things over. For some reason Willow seemed overly sensitive. When I first saw it the whole argument seemed a little off somehow. Like neither were really listening to the other or arguing over different things perhaps. I don't know exactly why, but that was my impression. The whole "your so powerful sometimes it frightens me," jumped to "I" frighten you awfully quickly and is not the same thing obviously. Maybe Willow is just hypersensitive about her magic use, but that seems a bit odd, especially with Tara. I would much rather have seen Tara attack Willow's attitude towards magic and her lack of caution with it. That in my mind is the heart of their differences.



I don't know if I would call Glory's attack mind rape. She was just feeding and destroying here, more than reading Tara's mind or putting in her own control really. But that's just terminology. I also say given the affects of Glory's mindsucking that Tara should have had nightmares and reactions for a lot of the summer afterwards, but that we never saw that. It also makes the forget spell that much harder to buy, again at least for me.



I agree that Willow is probably more powerful, but then I tend to root things like that in knowledge and experience, not some arbitrary fantasy novel your born with it thing. Tara has practiced longer, knows more, has the craft in her heritage, she really should be more powerful if she applied all that. Her personality stops her. Still, they have set up the more fantasy version and in that outlook Willow should be more powerful, but I still feel Tara is not as far behind her, prior to the upgrade with Darkest Magics at least, as one might thing IF she overcame her own self-doubts.



In anycase, looking forward to the rest of season 5. Seasons sux, well, it should be interesting at least, probably more so than the show itself was.



Garner



Garner
 

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