Reading and Writing Fan Fiction: Questions

[xita]

This is ot, cause i just don't have time to write, which i hate. But, thinking and talking about w/t was a shelter from the bad things, and you are right when the bad thing is this show and yes w/t there is no shelter. Luckily I am deep in denial, the show doesn't exist anymore and I can go on and enjoy w/t . It's taken me a while.



*hugs katharyn.

- - - - - - - - - - - -
Tara and Willow

Accept NO subsitutes

[tommo]

For me I think it's the other way round in some respects. The outside world often affects my writing horribly. Now, for instance. I sit staring at half-written chapter for hours, before I close the window and go and do something less emotional; less taxing. Something that doesn't require me to think or put my thoughts into motion.



I think for me, the show doesn't even factor into it anymore. That shit is over. Willow and Tara live in some other place now. And yeah, I'm in denial. I don't care. It's a good place. It's about the only place I have right now.

----------
"Squish. Squish. Squish."

[VampNo12]

I can't say what has happend with W&T has affected my writing (because I only read fics), but I must say since yesterday I been avoiding the Pens Board. Since hearing about the latest interview with Amber (as well as the spoilers), I am having trouble reading W&T fic. What is weird is that before I just "reclaimed" W&T where the tv show wasn't real, but the Pens fics were the "true" depiction of them/live on (ie I lived happily in denial). I am sure this feeling will pass, probably in a few hours knowing me, but I do feel like Joss/ME with all their lies, manipulation, and spin has affected me in some way (ie my bitterness as well as RL have caught up with me). Although, I must say with such great writers on the Pens Board (who truly know how to treat W&T) I am sure this feeling will fade soon, and thus, I can happily live in denial again!

Edited by: VampNo12  at: 9/14/02 2:56:12 pm

[Tulipp]

Everybody who has posted in the last day or so about this...Katharyn, Xita, Ruth, VampNo12...thank you, especially now, when it's so hard and the detritus from the show seems so overwhelmingly...cluttery.



I try to hold myself back from commenting too much in here so that the conversation can just go where it goes, but I'm not too good at doing that, so here I am.



This seems to me to be at the very heart of what is fascinating and uplifting and also intensely sorrowful about writing and reading W/T fan fiction at this time...and for awhile. On the one hand, it is THE way that I find solace in the heartbreak that I have in hearing what I hear and not seeing what we will not see. And on the other hand, in the end, it can be punctured just like that. A spoiler, an interview, even the kind of pain that viewing an old episode...it can just deflate the whole enterprise.



And even if that's just temporary, it saddens me so much. Because I feel the same way. I want what I read in Pens to replace the show for me; I want that intensely. Does it in the end? I don't know. I hope so. I keep hoping so. But this weekend it feels extra hard.



So, I guess hugs to everybody. Thanks for posting in here.

[Scout]

I purposely haven’t read any of the other responses, so forgive me if I repeat some previously stated ideas.



1. Why do you keep coming back to read or to write W/T fan fiction?



My storytelling takes the form of MK cartoons and W/T Theatre so it’s a little different, but I do what I do because it’s my way of keeping Willow and Tara alive. I feel like we inherited the responsibility of carrying on their story and that’s what we do on the Pens. I feel the same way about the feedback I give – I’m contributing to the process of keeping Willow and Tara’s story alive by responding to those who took the time to carry on the girls’ future in the form of fan fiction. Finally, I create and read because I obviously enjoy it.



2. Is there something about reading and writing W/T fan fiction that is essentially different from the other reading and writing that you do?



I honestly was never into fan fiction before Willow and Tara. I was a huge Xena fan before the horrific ending of that series, but I never got into creating stories or reading stories based on the series. Something about Willow and Tara was so special that the show wasn’t enough – I needed more and that came in the form of fan fiction and storytelling on the Pens.



3. Have the recent events on the show changed your feelings about W/T fan fiction specifically?



Yes. Before it was an entertaining way to spend time waiting for the season to start or waiting for the hiatus to end. But now I often feel compelled to create and read because I need it and I think that others need it. It’s become vital to carrying on their story. W/T fan fiction is where Willow and Tara live now, and it’s a place where they are safe and respected.



4. May I ask you follow-up on questions via e-mail?



Yes, see my profile.



5. Do you think that at some point your need for W/T fan fiction will go away? If not, why not? Is it really cathartic if you keep coming back to it?



It will probably fade over time, but I honestly don’t see it going away completely. I save stories on my hard drive for the sole purpose of going back to them at a future date – maybe even a time when the Pens is no longer around. I do think it’s cathartic to keep coming back. There have been many times when I have needed to take a break from the Kitten or the spoilers, but I was always able to go back to the Pens because it felt safe and less angsty there, and I am more able to pretend that Tara isn’t gone.



6. How important is the response and feedback of readers to the experience of writing OR reading fan fiction?



As a writer or creator, for me it’s very important. I like to know that people are enjoying what I do and that I have stayed true to the essential Willow and Tara. I don’t normally have anyone view my contributions before I submit them (I’ve only done that once), so feedback lets me know that I’m on target. As a reader, I enjoy letting contributors know that I appreciate and enjoy the fact that they were willing to share their creative efforts with us. I want to encourage them so they’ll do more. I also gain a tremendous amount of insight into a story by reading other people’s comments. They see a lot of things that never occurred to me and I learn a lot from their responses.



7. Does feedback help to improve a writer’s craft?



Yes. If you take a look at just one thread on the Pens, you can see how some of the feedback posted would offer an author real insight into how their story affected people and how it came across to real Willow and Tara fans, who are a very discriminating lot. I think the overall quality of the feedback on the Pens is above average and any author would be grateful for that kind of input.



Just as a final note – I sympathize with Katharyn and others who have said that recent events have made it hard to find a haven in reruns, or the Pens, or in Willow and Tara. I fight a constant battle to keep the happenings on the show from affecting my continued enjoyment of Willow and Tara and living in denial has helped. But I also feel sad when I hear that people are struggling with that because I hate the idea that the show can taint what we had, even though it sometimes does. Hugs to all.

[darkmagicwillow]

I just read the Amber interview in the bookstore and now I'm all angry, bitter, and depressed, which is not the way to get writing done. You're right about watching old episodes too; I've watched the beginning of SR more than once but I've never gone back to the ending and I don't intend to.



Pens has really replaced the show for me this summer. I feel a much deeper connection to Willow and Tara after reading so many good stories about them and the stories I've read here resonate more strongly in my memory than most of what I saw on the show.



On the bright side, I'm leaving the country before the new season starts so I'll have ample warning about whether to watch it or not by the time I return.



Now I'm off to find an angry, bitter, depressed scene to write. I'm sure I've got another one of those in my outline...

--
"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit. "   "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

[Kieli]

Sorry to have been away so long and not catching up....real life intrudeth FAR too much (Tulipp, you can email me, yanno )



As far as beta readers are concerned, I only talk to a select few people to bounce ideas off them. I correct my own grammar and spelling and such...which is the only reason I ever really saw a need for a "beta reader". But that's as far as I go with using betas. My writing is just too personal for me and I don't take criticism well from people who a) can't really be inside my head to know what I'm thinking when I write a story and b) who want to "change" my style. Like I said previously, I feel free and uninhibited without a beta because I don't feel like I have to impress anyone or prove something to them. *shrug* Apparently, I have issues. When chatting with others about my ideas for a fic and/or the direction I am taking for a fic, I tend to examine all ideas, see which ones I think mesh well with the story at hand and then discard anything else I feel won't work. I always go with my gut because it's never steered me wrong thus far.



As far as letting outside influences affect my writing....well, the only thing that does that is this little Stich monster that is my writer's block...bloody little bastard



I don't think my need or desire for W/T fanfic will ever go away, despite all the crap that has been going on as of late. The Pens is our little world and I hate the thought of anything or anyone spoiling our haven. That being said, I think I may address the concept of "claiming characters as one's own". I usually like to write AU fic because I really just can not stand the way Joss has written Tara to be a helpless victim. We've all seen from the end of Season 4 on that she is so NOT that. I prefer to write and reshape Tara as a strong, self-sufficient individual and I know other authors have done the same. No rape scenes, no abusive scenes and other such nonsense. Those things strike me too close for comfort and the rage that accompanies reading such fic tends to make me a little irrational. Not a pretty sight, rest assured.



Hope this answers your questions somewhat, Tulipp. And do email me if you have any other questions. I'm an Internet slut...I'm always around



Toni

Love is tricky. It is never mundane or daily. You can never get used to it. You have to walk with it, then let it walk with you. You can never balk. It moves you like the tide. It takes you out to sea then lays you on the beach again. Today's struggling pain is the foundation for a certain stride through the heavens. You can run from it but you can never say no. It includes everyone."--Amy Tan "The Hundred Secret Senses"

[Tulipp]

Scout, great to see your response; it's really interesting to expand the concept of writing to other forms of creative production here, makes me think about lots of new possibilities.



And Toni, I will e-mail you; I will. I have been neglecting my research a little bit lately as I finish up a story, but v. soon. Your reponses have been very helpful to me, and I do have more questions. I always have more questions.



darkmagicwillow, hope you found a dark bitter scene to write.

[darkmagicwillow]

Kieli, you've helped me clarify why I do need beta readers. I'd be annoyed if someone tried to change my style too, but I think having people who aren't inside your head read your work is important as they have a more objective perspective on whether you've communicated what you've seen internally. I know what you mean about having to prove something, but I actually feel freer with beta reading as I worry about impressing the kittens so I want to know how close I've come to that before I post something for everyone to see. I've posted before, but I think I have a better understanding of why I need beta reading now.



Consistency - Am I staying true to the characters and events of BtVS? Am I staying true to the characters and events earlier in my story? In a long story written over months, I think this part can be very important.



Encouragement - I'm not posting until I'm done or almost done with my story so getting feedback and encouragement now instead of months after I write a chapter is essential.



Focus - Where should I focus my efforts in my next draft of the chapter? What parts could use more description or feeling? I can read it myself, but I know too much about what I see or feel internally about those parts to see the weakness of the words for communicating what is so clear to me inside. Another part of this is learning which parts worked really well for the reader. This is the most important part of beta'ing for improving my writing.



Security - When I think about posting, I worry about kittens with sharp claws, or more realistically since the kittens tend to be nicer than that, I worry about kittens ignoring what I write. Knowing that at least a couple of people like what I wrote gives me the courage I need to actually post something on Pens.



Tulip, I ended up writing a sweet, tender scene instead which wasn't even in the outline but I think it works well and I felt better afterwards.

--
"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit. "   "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

[Kieli]

I'm glad that I was able to help you solidify your own need for beta readers, DMW. I've been there with the whole Kittens with sharp claws thing (it happened once, a long while back...which was the reason I stopped writing for almost two years...but that is neither here nor there) and I can understand your trepidation. However, in the general scheme of things, while I do really appreciate the Kittens reactions to my work in the Pens, I feel that it doesn't define me as a writer. I could just as easily post my work in other places like Extra Flamey or Wiccan Ways, I suppose. I do enjoy the atmosphere at the Pens but I will no longer define myself and my work by someone else's opinions. After getting slammed on my first outing, I had lost all confidence in myself, my ability as a writer and any talent I had (small though it is) at writing. I resolved that would not happen again. Hence, I write almost more for myself than for anyone else. If others happen to like what I've written, well, that is an extra bonus and gives me great pleasure. But I got burned once, and I know I don't think I want to put myself in that position ever again.



Your points are very valid, well thought out and clear. It is actually a very good outline for those who are just starting out with writing not only fanfiction but anything at all. I'm looking forward to reading your story once you decide to post it.



Toni

Love is tricky. It is never mundane or daily. You can never get used to it. You have to walk with it, then let it walk with you. You can never balk. It moves you like the tide. It takes you out to sea then lays you on the beach again. Today's struggling pain is the foundation for a certain stride through the heavens. You can run from it but you can never say no. It includes everyone."--Amy Tan "The Hundred Secret Senses"

[Magrat70]

My beta and i tend to be on the same wave length about most things and she has started (I hope) make me a better writer. She has made me far more disciplined than I was and think deeply about what i'm writing. though if we didn't agree on the basic idea it wouldn't work. She hasn't changed any of my fic just made me pad them out more.



On the current news from the show, it no longer affects me. I think of it as a different world from where i'm writing. I don't think Tara will be back so therefore they can't hurt me.

These five words in my head scream "are we having fun yet?"

Chad Kroeger

[Indygo]

*waves in the direction of lelak*



Having used the same beta reader for a long time (who is also my best friend IRL) I can say that a successful beta/writer relationship is based on how a beta can help you make the most of your style, not how they can change your style of writing! Anyone who tries to actively change your way of expressing your ideas - except in a grammatical sense - is probably not going to help you much as a writer. I think of my writing style as a extension of my personality, and would take the same amount of offence at someone trying to change it as I would if someone tried to change my personality. (And you can talk to some of my past creative writing teachers for confirmation of that! heh heh )



Betas are safety nets. You can try out your most twisted ideas on someone outside of your brain and see if they work. You can experiment and draft and re-draft until you both feel it sounds right. And if you like something and they don't, you can respectifully disagree. After all, it is your writing in the end. My beta helps me achieve the best I can from what is within me. I guess that's why she's also my friend.



Indygo

[lelak]

And I didn't even have to pay her to say this!

[Mrs Vertigo]

humm... my best shot at it :



1. Why do you keep coming back to read or to write W/T fan fiction? You probably have a job/school/family/busy life, and reading and writing fan fiction takes time and effort. Of course, the characters themselves are a huge draw, but what else does fan fiction give you that you can’t get anywhere else? (In general, but also with regard to recent events, of course).



Firstly, the major difference between w/t fanfic and most other literature is that it depicts a same-sex, long term romantic relationship between two women not all that far from my age. I’m starved for models like that in the media, I admit.



Secondly, fanfic is the result of an enormous investment of thought and feeling. There is so much work in every single fic. People took the time to study and plunged themselves into the characters and plotlines I hold so dear. I can see that in their writing. They love Willow and Tara just as much as I do, some maybe more. It’s an intensity you can’t find in almost any other kind of literature. It’s amazing, it fascinates me. I can’t get enough of it.



2. Is there something about reading and writing W/T fan fiction that is essentially different from the other reading and writing that you do? How would you describe that difference, or how would you say what makes fan fiction reading and writing unique?



The difference, to me, is that there are more rules. When I write anything but w/t I’m completely free to do as I please as long as it comes out interesting. When I write w/t I have to follow the genre’s rules – I have to write dialogue, plotlines and characterizations that are close enough to Joss Whedon’s originals that you could imagine them happening on the show. Very strict rules, very clear on what can and cannot be. That’s the whole point, that’s the fun and the thrill and the challenge and the whatnot. It also makes sense – I can’t very well have Tara axe-murder Willow, or (and I don’t know if this is not the scarier scenario) have Oz take over the earth and make Willow his eternal queen, and still call it w/t fanfic. It might be something, but it doesn’t follow the rules, so it won’t be w/t fanfic.



3. Have the recent events on the show changed your feelings about W/T fan fiction specifically? Do you feel more or less compelled by it now than before? Does it do something more or less for you than it did before?



I have, from the very beginning, been a spoiler whore when it came to this couple. I can’t really refer to any timeframe. When I found out about Tara’s… mistreatment on the show, which was as early as the season 4 finale where I live, I was hardly reading w/t fanfic at all. I was… heh… of the X:WP fandom,



4. May I ask you follow-up on questions via e-mail?



By all means do . My address is avitalkeshet@hotmail.com



5. Do you think that at some point your need for W/T fan fiction will go away? If not, why not? Is it really cathartic if you keep coming back to it?



I think that at some point I will fill up my w/t quanta, definitely. That’s my reading patterns. Pretty much since I learned the *how* I would focus on (or obsess over? hehe) one or two subjects for however long and then, for not real reason, just get caught by something else and completely submerge myself in it. Right now, I can’t see myself tiring of w/t at all, but if I haven’t been drastically changed I probably will, some day.



6. How important is the response and feedback of readers to the experience of writing OR READING fan fiction?



Its one of the most crucial things possible to a writer. It’s unbelievably motivating and empowering. I get an almost physical pleasure out of it myself (but get your mind out of the gutter, will you!). I think that, along the obvious appeal of w/t and general thrill of creating, feedback is a big reason why people write at all. We all love to be praised, debated, encouraged, discussed, asked and just generally noticed. That is what feedback does – for me at least, as a writer – makes you feel like you’re on top of the world. Writing without it is like… 20/20 eyesight in a fog.



7. Does feedback help to improve a writer’s craft?



Not necessarily. It depends on how intelligent the writer is. What undoubtedly does help improve a writer is using a beta reader. Or several. Ahem.





I hope that was to the point… good luck to you. And hopefully you’ll let us see the outcome? Pretty please?



EDITED for the itlics... huhh.

---
“You know, if you weren’t such a bitch-queen from hell you and I would’ve gotten along just fine” – Me making with the friendly at Glory, in a dream where I was Buffy and she was crucifying me.

Edited by: Mrs Vertigo at: 9/16/02 11:58:11 am

[Tulipp]

Thanks, everybody, for your thoughts...Indygo and Lelak and Mrs. Vertigo, if you don't mind, I'll e-mail you so that I have official permission to use your words, if necessary.



Mrs. Vertigo brings up some interesting points about process, and it seems like it might be a good time to throw that out as a question...



How do you write? I mean this both in terms of practical matters...multiple drafts or all in one go? in front of the television or in a quiet room? while reading other books (darkmagicwillow brought that idea up recently) or sequestered from outside forces?



And also in terms of writerliness, I guess...do you make an outline or chart? how far ahead do you plan? do you write from the beginning to the end of an update, or do you write down bits as they come to you?



Or whatever else you can think of.



And Mrs. V., I will definitely share when something is ready, but be warned...it's looking long. Like whole dissertation long.

Edited by: Tulipp at: 9/17/02 10:07:47 am

[Katharyn]

More good question Juli*S* God I love this thread...



How do you write? - I have shifted to a system where I make notes on a part (often as part of a brainstorm with someone else) then I turn the note into a handwritten first draft. This can get as in depth as lines... but these are the big lines that I really want in there and can be infront of the TV, often BTVS cos you can get character ideas from that. Or could... Then I type that up, adding stuff as I go... which is really just copying so easy. From there I sit and write a proper first draft. That really needs no distractions - it has to flow - but I do need music to write to as much as possible. Some things I can write to... some music I cannot and it is not a matter of taste... just how it gets to me. I can't write and sing along for example (nor can I sing!) The second draft is always after a nights sleep and that again needs no distractions but music. The part is sent anc comes back from beta and I then run a final redraft whic edits the beta in and makes a few more changes. This has been known to be done in chat.



This might sound like alot for a single part but it is not all at once. I write notes one day... I write the paper draft another time... then the writing. Whilst I am waiting for the beta to come back I can start on another part. In a sense it is like the production of the show... I can have up to four parts going at the same time in pre-prod, writing and post-prod.



Sort of.



Planning - Well as you see I plan the parts out fairly thorougly though stuff is often added but I have known where I am going with my current fic since I broke the story and it all made sense. That then allowed me to plan the whole thing - and what I added to that was parts and entire arcs. I never sat and said "in part 75 this must happen" but I did know the sequence of events to get that.



Okay... that is me going on a bit... off to have a shower and then to type up some notes - as mentioned above.



The shower is not an essential part of the process!



Katharyn

--------------

[Kieli]

Quote:

---

How do you write? I mean this both in terms of practical matters...multiple drafts or all in one go? in front of the television or in a quiet room? while reading other books (darkmagicwillow brought that idea up recently) or sequestered from outside forces?

---

I don't know if I should even answer this question because a) I might expose myself as the ignorant, writer wannabe heathen that I am and b) I might send true authors into a state of apoplexy. To be honest, more often than not, I just sit down with a blank screen and just write. I tend to write best with music on in the background mostly because music very much a part of me. It is integrated with my soul and really helps me to focus, depending on the type of music. I don't really research all that much except for when I want to use particular things (i.e. when I researched the Yiddish language for use in CAWM and SAK). I tend to go with gut feelings or even ideas, dialogue or situations that show up in my dreams. Come Away with Me is a fic totally comprised of scenes and dialogue that have come to me in dreams. She's a Keeper was an idea that I had one night that I was reading a book called "The Jew Accused" by Sachar. *shrug* I guess that makes me quirky and possibly very ignorant. But it works for me and I doubt that I will change it.

Quote:

---

And also in terms of writerliness, I guess...do you make an outline or chart? how far ahead do you plan? do you write from the beginning to the end of an update, or do you write down bits as they come to you?

---

Hmmm...good question. I rarely use outlines for ANYTHING. I write down bits and pieces of thoughts occasionally if I am not near a keyboard where I can make my ideas a reality. I rarely plan ahead either except for a small concession in CAWM. I just kind of let the story flow and carry me along. CAWM started out as a vignette in my mind....little did I know that it would become a 13 chapter monstrosity (it's only 11 now but will be 13 when it's all said and done). It took on a life of its own and I am both grateful and perplexed at the direction it has gone. There goes that gut feeling again It works for me and I doubt it could work for anyone else that way. I just happen to be weird and quirky and odd and perhaps a little unschooled. I like where I am at this stage of my writing....it feels comfortable and natural and free....I couldn't ask for anything more than that.



I doubt I will end up in your paper, Tulipp *chuckle* I've no real concrete methodology....but it was fun to think about these things and share them.

Toni

Love is tricky. It is never mundane or daily. You can never get used to it. You have to walk with it, then let it walk with you. You can never balk. It moves you like the tide. It takes you out to sea then lays you on the beach again. Today's struggling pain is the foundation for a certain stride through the heavens. You can run from it but you can never say no. It includes everyone."--Amy Tan "The Hundred Secret Senses"

[Sheridan]

How do you write?



Well I'm very disorganised in terms of sitting down and writing, I have the TV on, I'l get up and go make something to eat or stop to read something quite frequently. The major discipline I impose on myself is to write everyday and set certain goals for the day, certain number of words, end of a chapter or a mixture of these.



Outlines



My stories usually start out as single paragraph that contains the idea of the story. As I get closer to actually writing the story I work out a complete outline of each chapter of the story, and I don't start writing until I'm happy with the outline. When writing the outline is just a guide, events can be moved, deleted, or added. Bear in mind that this isn't as linear as it sounds, I can be writing one story, working on the outline of another, and then break off because I've had an idea for the next story. Since I'm working on a series of stories its very important to keep a tight rein on the order and direction of things. Hope that helps.

- - - - - - - - - - - -

Willow: ...I have to tell you....

Tara: No, I understand you have to be with the
person you l-love

Willow: I am

[Sassette]

I keep meaning to jump into this thread, because it looks like fun *G*, but I've been horrifically busy. But everyone's comments and answers have been a great read.



1. Why do you keep coming back to read or to write W/T fan fiction?



Heh ... it's an obsession. Really, it's a way to be a part of the whole 'experience' of the show. Despite the fact fanfiction in general predates the internet, the growing popularity of online fandoms makes fic writing a way of interacting with the show in an unofficial capacity, and other fans who share similar interests. As for W/T specifically - in a way it's kind of a 'fringe' storyline, in that the very nature of W/T means a lot of things that could conceivably happen to them will never appear on the show. Even before the show did away with this pairing completely, we never would have seen a W/T wedding episode, we've never seen their first kiss, we rarely hear them say they love each other. The list goes on and on - and W/T fanfic is a way for the fans to create these moments that we'll never have a 'canon' explanation for.



On a very personal level (not, like, "naughty" personal, just, y'know, pertaining to me personally), I'm about equally left and right-brained. Back in the day when I had a fairly right-brained job, I was writing computer programs for fun. Now my job is nice and left-brained, and I feel the need to do something right-brained at home, and the creative fun of writing fits the bill nicely.



2. Is there something about reading and writing W/T fan fiction that is essentially different from the other reading and writing that you do? How would you describe that difference, or how would you say what makes fan fiction reading and writing unique?



It's a lot easier for me to write W/T fanfiction than any of the other writing I do. Part of this is because they just inspire me - they're wonderful characters. Another part is the fact that I'm playing in someone else's universe, for an audience of people who are already familiar with previous storylines, the setting, all the characters themselves - the basic 'development' is already there. In a way, writing fanfiction vs. writing something original is like the difference between building a model castle out of lego blocks and building a model castle out of toothpicks and glue - the mechanism for >holding< everything together is built-in with the legos, and it's easier to see how things should >fit< together.



Reading fanfiction is radically different than just about any medium - especially on Pens. Fanfic writers have a very wide range of basic writing skill, and it's wonderful to see how a writer grows and develops. They just get better the more they write, and it's a real kick to watch. The fact that they're also fans means that they're very accessible and approachable, and I've never heard of a writer who didn't want to talk about their story - and in that respect, it's very easy to just email an author and ask them things. This kind of interaction can really add to the feel that the reader is somehow a part of the story, or that the story is somehow just for them. Specific to Pens, because of the message board format and the large number of unfinished fics posted in parts, there's this sense of interactiveness ... I know that as a reader, some of my comments or questions to authors have at times been taken into account in subsequent posted parts, and that just contributes to the overall feeling that we're dealing with a living breathing mutable mythology rather than some hard and fast storyline that's been set in stone.



3. Have the recent events on the show changed your feelings about W/T fan fiction specifically? Do you feel more or less compelled by it now than before? Does it do something more or less for you than it did before?



I've always felt that W/T fan fiction served several purposes: to fill in 'blank' spots in the show, to explore areas of the relationship that will never be developed, and to 'fix' things that happened onscreen that the writer didn't like. Really, that sums up my ideas about the purpose of >all< fanfiction. To me, the very basic event here is that something happened onscreen that needes to be 'fixed'. The difference here, is that jsut about every hardcore W/T writer agrees that Tara's death was total swill (not that I can think of any hardcore W/T writer who >didn't< think it was total swill ... but it's not like I'm personally acquainted with every W/T writer on the 'net, and I try to avoid speaking for other people) and so we've seen a big upsurge in 'AU' fics that 'fix' or just flat-out ignore Tara's death and Willow's descent into darkness. Aside from my awareness that lots of people were genuinely hurt by these events on the show and the warm-fuzzy I get every time someone says W/T fic helps them, my feelings about W/T fic have remained largely unaffected. My 'opinion' of W/T fic, however, has changed, as I now feel W/T fic is more important than ever.



4. May I ask you follow-up on questions via e-mail?



Yes.



Additional Questions:



5. Do you think that at some point your need for W/T fan fiction will go away? If not, why not? Is it really cathartic if you keep coming back to it?



Oh, it might someday. I really have no idea. I don't know if I'd call it 'cathartic' to keep coming back, but if I ever stopped reading W/T fanfic regularly, I imagine I'd come back to it every so often, like visiting an old friend.



6. How important is the response and feedback of readers to the experience of writing OR READING fan fiction?



This is pretty individual to each person. I know that, when I'm writing, responses and feedback just make me feel really good, because it means people are reading - it also gives me a reason to write more often, as I feel like I'm letting people down if I don't post early, post often *G* When reading fanfic, I adore reading the responses ... oftentimes people are able to pick out something in a story I hadn't noticed. Each individual brings different things with them when they're reading a story, and seeing what it is they're taking back when they're done is actually pretty fascinating. Post-Feedback-Respond is this whole big process on Pens that's just really neat to watch.



7. Does feedback help to improve a writer’s craft?



I think that depends largely on the writer and who's feeding back. Aside from the particulars of individuals, I think the fact that there is feedback gives writers a nudge to keep writing, and makes them more likely to give writing another shot if the feedback is positive, which means they practice more, which means the writing gets better.



As for the current topic about HOW people write ... here's a small breakdown.



I sit down at my computer, I light a cigarette, I squint at the blank screen for awhile, then I start typing. I usually crank out between 6-10 pages in about 3-4 hours (which includes checking Pens for >other< people's updates). I'm very bad about using a beta reader - I tend to not worry about typos (and while I know that turns readers off a story sometimes, I've not had any complaints, so I'm not worried about it - and I just hate waiting for betas to get done with something). What I >do< check with other people for is what I call a Plot Check. If I'm planning any kind of a plot twist, or there's something that's going to happen that I'm unsure about, I grab a human sounding board and throw the idea at them and see what they say. This is extremely helpful in maintaining some semblance of logical continuity, especially in a big monster fic.



To talk about specific writing projects - when I do a vignette, that varies wildly. Sometimes I have a concept I want to go with, or sometimes there's a piece of dialogue in my head I want to start with - but mostly, I just make those up as I go along, and am often surprised by where they ended up. Then, of course, there are the requests where someone else has an idea for a vignette they want me to write - those are great fun, and a little more structured as I feel obligated to go with the concept given me and not let those vignettes run off in their own direction.



Something like AD, though, requires more planning. I probably wrote up to about part 10 or 12 before I admitted to myself that it wasn't going to be a 'short reconciliation fic' and that I'd better do some planning, as this huge plot was developing and could blow up in my face *G* Around part 20 or so, I pretty much nailed down what was going to happen in my head. Around part 30, I started writing short "part synopses" for each chapter ... just a few sentences that talked about what I wanted to have happen.



The fun thing about that was that I really didn't stick to it - the very basic plotline remained largely unchanged, but lots of the details changed drastically, and often I'd be planning on having several things all happen in one chapter, but I'd wind up writing some conversation that was fun, or end up on a philosophical tangent that I was enjoying, and then ten pages later I figured it was probably time to start a new chapter. So the general plot of AD was decided on pretty early, but the sheer scope and size of it was purely unintentional.



-Sass

Edited by: Sassette at: 9/17/02 1:00:05 pm

[tommo]

How do you write? I mean this both in terms of practical matters...multiple drafts or all in one go? in front of the television or in a quiet room? while reading other books (darkmagicwillow brought that idea up recently) or sequestered from outside forces?



Usually in bits. I tend to need it pretty quiet; there's only certain types of music I can listen to when I'm writing, stuff that doesn't distract me usually.



I'm a pretty instinctive writer; by that I mean that I tend to write when the feeling takes me, which is inconsistent and annoys the crap out of me. Sometimes I have to go away from it all and come back to it later and that also, can be horrible when you're trying to keep some kind of flow to your writing. I'm just a bit crap really, heh.



And also in terms of writerliness, I guess...do you make an outline or chart? how far ahead do you plan? do you write from the beginning to the end of an update, or do you write down bits as they come to you?



Well generally I know where I'm starting and I know where I'm heading. I don't write plans down; I just sit and write and see where the chapter takes me. For example, in my most recent story, I have the outline planned in my head, and I've explained it to my beta reader. However, the story that's posted doesn't bear much resemblance to that, yet. I found myself lingering over the parts that I thought would be quick and easy to write, so extending the finished product into a story that has the outline I decided upon, but veers off wildly all over the place. However, I'm quite happy with that, heh heh.

----------
"Squish. Squish. Squish."

[Mrs Vertigo]

This is a fun thread… all ‘always wanted to know but never had the coherency to ask’ stuff to me. I’m just loving it



How do you write?



um… it’s a funny process really, that pretty much consist of staring off vacantly while imagination runs hyper, and then the typing. I’m a simple creature, really. But I’ll rumble anyhow.



Alright… First of all something would catch me. Like a word, or an image. Like what’s currently on my mind - apple tea with milk and cinnamon. Don’t ask me why, but that just might turn into a story . After I *notice* something like that, that like I said can be totally random, I just tend to tune out of everything and play around with it in my head. If the idea is really appealing I would soon be wondering off to think about it more. That means that in the next couple of days I’d be taking long, slow walks alone and just kind of, again, and it seems to be a big part of my writing *smirks*, staring into space without really seeing anything while my brain is rumbling away. I just have to be alone. I can’t discuss my idea with anybody or even jot anything down because then, and this has happened to me so friggin much, the inspirational bunny just hops away.



Once I’m halfway through a storyline - which usually means I have the beginning and the ending, or just the middle, or just the beginning – I just sit and type it up. I can’t have anything else going on, not music, tv, another book, talking to somebody, anything. I just type and every once in a while stare off into nothing for about twenty minutes. I can do that for as long as I’m left alone. Usually though I don’t get more than four hours straight without interruption. The missing parts I work in while typing - I’ve only written short stories so far so I can swing it this way. Also, I’ve never needed to plan ahead and deal with updates. My respect for those who do, though.



I write slowly, not because I type that way but because I’m a perfectionist. Everything has to come out exactly right. I can’t write an outline or a sketch and then work around it, a paragraph has to be perfect before I move on, without any mistakes I can still see and fix.



After that it’s pretty much back and forth with my beta. She points it out and I correct it, revise it, and email it back to her until were both satisfied with the result. I’ve only recently discovered the wonder that is a beta and I can’t get enough of it. Being able to use a beta is just a sweet treat and I’d like to say to all the betas out there – THANK YOU!! You. Rock.



And Sass, I know this isn’t really the place but… *kneels and goes into worship mode* God I love your writing! You just capture moments so perfectly. Amazing. I’m so glad you’re part of the pens community. Seriously.

---
“You know, if you weren’t such a bitch-queen from hell you and I would’ve gotten along just fine” – Me making with the friendly at Glory, in a dream where I was Buffy and she was crucifying me.

[darkmagicwillow]

I start with a handwritten page or so of notes about the chapter which contains the essential events and the very important lines. However, as much as half of these never make it into the chapter. Then I handwrite a first draft, scene by scene, which contains all the action and dialog, but may be a bit lacking in details. After I put that into the computer, I make a second draft by adding details, thoughts, feelings, and expressions and polish my wording and transitions between paragraphs and scenes. Then I send that draft off to my betas. Yes, I'm lucky enough to have two, having adopted an additional one halfway through my current story.



Like Katharyn, I have a bit of an assembly line going with some chapters in the notes only or first draft handwritten stage, others in second draft being edited, and still more waiting for corrections after being beta'd. I do have an outline of everything that will happen, but while the beginning and end are fixed, the details of the journey can change greatly as I get near to writing a chapter and can change noticeably even while writing one.



I just sent one chapter off for beta'ing so I'm going to write some notes on my next one this afternoon and start making corrections on some earlier chapters I got back this week tonight.

--
"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit. "   "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

[Tulipp]

Well, first, let me again thank everyone who has been replying...both the hearty souls who keep coming back and back and back and also the people who answer a few questions. You have all been so helpful, although you should realize that this is now turning into my entire dissertation.



Thank you most recently to Kieli, Katharyn, Ruth, Sass, Sheridan, darkmagicwilow, and Mrs. Vertigo.



I am reading what you say, and I want to respond, but today I thought maybe we could go in a different direction with a question that both writers and readers might want to answer, but this is a reading question.



What makes good fanfic good? This might be different for everyone, so what are the criteria by which you as a reader decide when a particular piece of fanfic is good or great? Which criteria are internal to a piece of fic--like characterization or plot or pacing--and which are external--like timing or your own emotional state? (And please avoid using negative examples here; thanks),



As always, please take this question anywhere you like.



And thanks!

***************

"Maybe you should stop watching Season Severed.... Whatever it is, it's not worth hurting yourself over."
--Riley, slightly adapted from "Wild at Heart"

[Zahir al Daoud]

I write by keeping the word processing program up at my PC, so whenever I sit down I can put in a few sentences here and there at least. Methinks I write much better when alone, and early mornings are probably best (but my roommate is such a light sleeper that's often impractical alas).



As for the actual process, I let it flow but try to keep several rules in mind. One is to avoid too many adjectives, and to try beginning each sentence with a different letter. Another is to find the "voice" of the p.o.v. character and keep it (while trying to avoid the dreaded passive voice!!!!!).



I do outline, but in very general terms. Outlines, imo, are tools not straightjackets. They're to allow you enough solid knowledge of the terrain you won't get lost on a mild detour.



One thing I've found with anything good I write--something unexpected happens. A character will show up or do something, or go somewhere I had no plans for at all. That's whats meant, I think, when folks talk about "listening to your muse."



Finally, I utterly adore feedback. Love it. Its like applause to an actor, a visceral sense that when you reach out to an audience you succeed in making contact. Without feedback, art is masturbation--harmless, fun, but lonely. Yet after trying to use Betas, I find they pretty much short-circuit my creative process. So now I won't use them. Don't make that judgement for anyone else, just me.

"O Let my name be in the Book of Love!
If it be there I care not of that other Book above.
Strike it out! Or write it in anew, but
Let my name be in the Book of Love!"
--Omar Kayam

[Kieli]

Hmmm...for me, deciding what fanfic I determine as "good" has never been something I've actively thought about. Sometimes there are stories that are so creative and original that they draw me in immediately. I like smut to some extent but get really turned off by extreme graphicness. There's a point for me and I do have limits. I love fics that make me laugh out loud with quirky bits of Willow-humour, sly understated Tara-humour and hilarious situations that border on the verge of Bridget Jones-esque. I've no set criteria, in other words. Some days it just depends on my mood and other days I feel like examining a story in its parts. But I really doubt that I could truly explain this. It's like the feeling I get when I listen to a certain song....I can't explain why it moves me so much I only know that it does.



I'm sure that all was so NOT helpful



Toni

Love is tricky. It is never mundane or daily. You can never get used to it. You have to walk with it, then let it walk with you. You can never balk. It moves you like the tide. It takes you out to sea then lays you on the beach again. Today's struggling pain is the foundation for a certain stride through the heavens. You can run from it but you can never say no. It includes everyone."--Amy Tan "The Hundred Secret Senses"

[Mrs Vertigo]

Ok, you’re probably sick of hearing me again but… hehe



What are the criteria by which you as a reader decide when a particular piece of fanfic is good or great?



Humm, ok… My first turn-on in a story is fluent language. That mostly means that the narrative isn’t all bumpy with typos and grammar mistakes (make me crazy), and doesn’t just spatter out unprocessed facts. A real treat is when the writer puts in little tongue-tangles and, uh, descriptions that just sound like something Willow would say? If I get witty narrative I just drool with pleasure. Then the obvious – characterization. I don’t think anybody here enjoys a story where Tara badmouths constantly and Willow gets a pet tarantula or carries a shotgun everywhere. But that goes both ways – write good characterization and I’ll be eating out of the palm of your hand. ext thing that I’m a real sucker for is theories, when people explain something that’s cannon, like why is Tara mothering Dawn, that has never been addressed onscreen. Those fanfics that ‘fill in’ cannon holes are my favorites. As for plot, I actually don’t give that the greatest weight. If there’s a complicated, thought over and sophisticated plotline *coughSidestedChroniclecough* then who am I to resist its lure but really, I could do with the simplest plot-less vignette. And as a general rule, as long as it’s nicely explained I’ll go along with pretty much anything.



Complete turn-offs include the Everyone’s Suddenly Gay! syndrome, Merry Sue in her various shapes and sizes and graphic sex scenes. Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for snuggles, smoochies and passionate lovemaking but I can’t stand over-graphicness. Smut, if not very carefully written, is just cringe-worthy stuff to me.



As for exterior factors, I don’t think those really play a major part for me because I tend to use reading as a getaway. It doesn’t really matter if I’m upset, bored or just genuinely interested because when I read I just block out everything. That’s part of why I like it so much – I don’t have to worry about stuff and I can just sink in a story. So in short, I could be pissed as the newly driven bull and still be all jellowy for w/t.



All in all I think I’m a tough reader. It’s not a very good thing, I know, but I really don’t fall head over feet for most fanfic and I have plenty of criticism (that I don’t post because it’s not helpful.)



Ok, hope my yammering help -gd’lcuk Tulipp

---
“You know, if you weren’t such a bitch-queen from hell you and I would’ve gotten along just fine...” – Me making with the friendly at Glory, in a dream where I was Buffy and she was crucifying me.

Edited by: Mrs Vertigo at: 9/25/02 1:35:41 pm

[VampNo12]

In answer to the ("What are the criteria by which you as a reader decide when a particular piece of fanfic is good or great?") I think it depends. First I need the writing to flow, or in other words, it's not a chore to read the piece (ie structure, grammar, and etc) allow me to enjoy the actual story/characterization (and the above flaws don't take away from the plot/characters).



For me characterization and plot are the big keys in determining how well I deem a fic "good" or "great". I need to recognize these characters regardless if the fic takes place in a particular season or it's an AU fic (ie the characters of W&T aren't acting totally out of character). I enjoy complex plots, but at the same time enjoy simple pieces that just explore the relationship between W&T falling in love as the main plot. Really a story draws me in (and keeps me there) when the fic takes care with the characterization, not too many plot-holes (ie makes sense in the "grand scheme"), although sometimes my mood plays a part in determing what I read. Or in other words, if I am depressed I might find a Season 4 "getting together" fic great, to take away the bitter taste of "Season Sux/7". Therefore, a story with a lot of agnst (even if well written) might be avoided for awhile until I am in the frame of mind to read that type of story (so I would take the "good story" over the great at that point).



Smut doesn't bother me, sometimes I need just to read a good smut piece . Really if a story can make me feel, makes me picture W&T in my head as I read the piece, and the TBC at the end of the update makes me watch the thread for an update I deem the story "great". The definition of "good" I guess would be there are some "plot holes" that don't make sense, but it doesn't take too much away from the overall story (ie it bothers me, but I still continue to read/enjoy the story, but maybe not all the parts), as well as fic that has grammar flaws/etc, but I still can overlook them to continue reading (ie the story is good, but a little more effort not in the plot, but the structure would make the story better).



As for turn-offs I agree with Mrs Vertigo about the "Everyone's Suddenly Gay Syndrome"! It needs to make sense in the context of what I know about the characters. I have a feeling I been rambling, but I hope this helps !

Edited by: VampNo12  at: 9/25/02 4:05:08 pm