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The Politics Thread - Read the First Post

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Re: Dubya gets dumber and dumber

Postby Ben Varkentine » Mon Aug 23, 2004 6:14 pm

Good interview with a guy who has written a book on Bush's military record...or lack theof.



Quote:
Sadly, so much of his support is fundamentalist: no amount of evidence will ever convince them that he is less than perfect. But what is really frightening is the general obsequiousness of the American media, who, even if they may not think it’s blasphemy, do think it is a form of lèse-majesté [a crime against the sovereign] to question this President with any degree of thoroughness.


Ben



"One voice is easily ignored or silenced, but when other people add their voices to yours, you become a chorus not easily ignored."--Wil "Just A Geek" Wheaton

Ben Varkentine
 


responding

Postby thx1123 » Tue Aug 24, 2004 6:30 am



Okay,Iraq was a mistake but to blame the civillians and military deaths solely on Bush is to give a bunch of murdering thugs a free pass.



Does he bare a a good deal of the blame,yes.Is he telling Sadr and his ilk to wage a war of terror not only at the Coalition troops but Innocent Iraqi's NO.



And there is no proof he lied,that is to knowingly and willingly state things he knew to be untrue to get us in war with Iraq.



The 9-11 commission was not composed of Bush Yes men and they said there was no evidence of willing deceit or doctoring of the evidence.



Is Bush a liar,I don't believe so.Is he a small minded man who sees the world as Us Vs them.Yes.If he had any patience we might have avoided war.Sometimes it is Us vs them but not all the time.



And to say that saddam had no WMDS is false.He had them.He got rid of them but we have no prof he destroyed them. I don't think it is overeacting to say that as long as those WMDs out there are unaccounted for everybody could be in danger.Anthrax is bad but is really not a WMD on the scale of Nuclear Waepons,nerve gas or Small pox.We know that saddam had no nukes but at one time he had small pox.All it would take is one terrorist to allow himself to be infected.Even if they nabbed him at the airport by time it was figured out what he was carryiong all chances of containing the epidemic would be lost.We are ill prepared for an outbreak of small pox.I hope the WMD are destroyed but i would sleep easier if we knew for sure.



Just becuase I don't talk about Bush like he is something that I scraped off my shows don't mean I am behind him.



An air campaign.ala Kosovo could have gotten saddam to turn over the documents we need or tell us what he did with his WMDS,evn Kerry says he had them.



Regime change was unessecary and becuase of it we may never know what happened to the WMDS or if we find out they all were not destroyed it was becuase hundreds of our people are dead. I am not using the existence of WMDS to say you go Bush.I am saying by showing a lack of patience and rushing to go in and shock and awe may have endangered us all.



And 9-11 may be a anomaly.I pray it is but we cannot afford to assume it is.Terrorism is not an law enforcement issue,it is a national defense issue and I think Bush is right to treat it as such.



However,we could have located Saddam WMD's or confirmed their destruction with a fraction of the cost in human lifes,property destruction and dollars.



In Iraq Bush used a Sledge hammer to crack a hard boiled egg.Yes Mr.Cheney we do need a more sensitive war on terror.



If we have to use Force to take out thugs like Sadr and Bin Laden,so be it however you are using a howister when derringer will do.



I am worried Kerry is going to cut and run which I think will only compound Bush's blunder and encourage those who love jihad and only need a cuase to excuse it.





And there has been no back door draft.Gaurdsmen and reservist are told when they sign up they may be deployed at anytime for any length of time and stop loss orders of some kind are issued during just about every conflict.



I personaly believe in universal service fr every able bodied 18 year old,not nessecarily in the military,when I lived in Germany they had compulsary male service but those who choose not to serve in the military where put to work helping in their communities ala Americorp.



I think national service of some kind would be good for our youth whether they choose to load bombs or hand out bread.



As for North Korea anti communism has nothing to do with why they worry me. think we need to end the stupid,self defeating trade embargo with Cuba,Fidel ain't goin anywhar as they say done here in the south.



My thing is I am leary becuase the North Korean leadership has no regard for human life.They are content to live in luxury while their people starve.I do not see a rational mind in charge there.I believe if Bush went to launch a premptive first strike I believe one of his generals would balk.I believe Bush is reactionary,not that reactionary.He understands mutualy assured destruction.I am notconvinced the honchos in the north of korea care about that concept.



Iran worries me less than North Korea.I think if the hard liners tried to launch nukes the moderates would overthrow them.Iran is slowly changing for the better.



I wish no one had nukes but I also think unilateral nuclear disarmament is a mistake.The day anyone has reason to believe they could escae a nuclear exchange bloodied but intact,we are all in deep sh*t.Every human being on this planet.



The soviets and chineese know what we know,they might take us out by launching but we would destroy them as well.Ithink the Israeli's,Pakistanis.Indians and even Iranians understand this reality as well,I just am not too sure the North Korean leadership understands that.



And withdrawing troops from South Korea is an idiotic move.Kinda like putting your gun down in the face of a pissed off mama bear.



I do not refuse to support Bush any longer becuase I think he is an immoral bad person,but becuase he incompotent and has allowed user conservatives to run roughshod.I define User conservatives as those who pervert conservatism to enrich themselves instead of using conservative theory as a tide to lift all as I believe the record shows Reagan did.



I would define Pat Robets and the Enron gang as User conservatives and it bothers the mess out of me Cheney thinks it s none of our buissness what they talked with him about during the energy summit.I want t know what the hell a bunch of indicted accused crooks told him about energy policy.It may be innocent but his silence worries me as does Bush's refusal to drop him.It shows really poor judgement.I believe Cheney is a user conservative.



And if kerry can get us down to 4% unemployment without doubling or tripling the size of the federal bearaucy I will personaly do a snoopy dance for him and say he is da man on this board.



Some say Kerry needs to learn from Clinton.Me i say he could learn a lot from the first JFK's mixture of social liberalism and fiscal conservatism.



i believe JFK would have cut taxes and sponsor a federal civil unions bill to give us all the rights of marriage..



I respect Reagan,but respect does not come close on how i feel about JFK and camalot.. I have to be careful that my devotion to the first JFK does not become worship.



He was a flawed man who worked hard to overcome his flaws and did muc good.I don't respect Ted.He is a political hack on the level of Newt Gingrich who I also do not respect.



i wish Bobby had not died either.





Tabby

thx1123
 


Re: Dubya gets dumber and dumber

Postby The Angry Lion » Tue Aug 24, 2004 10:05 am

what youre saying is theres no smoking gun proving Bush lied, no, maybe just a really warm gun that reaks of coridite. When youve got conservatives like Richard Clarke coming forward and saying Bush wanted to go after iraq from day one that paints a pretty damning picture.



As for North Korea being irrational, ill restate, North Korea is on a list, a very short 3 name list, and one name has already been crossed off. If I was the N Korean leadership id get nukes, and Id consider it a very rational thing to do.



as for reagan i think the record shows he didnt lift the tide, any tide lifting that took place in the last quarter century or so happened under clinton. And speaking of fiscal conservatism (Im nowhere near a fiscal conservative but i understand the concept yes) Clinton performed a hell of a lot better on that agenda, then Bush. yes Ill agree, bush, cheney et al are the not the traditional kind of conservative, Neo-conservative is the term I use when Im specific.





My Country is the World. My Coutrymen Mankind-Thomas Paine

The Angry Lion
 


Re: Is Bush In Trouble?

Postby thx1123 » Tue Aug 24, 2004 11:45 am



Quote:
when you got conservatives like Richard Clarke


He is not a conservative and has less credibilty than the swift boat vets against the truth.Both him and them are basicaly smearig their former bosses out of spite.



It seems to me that all someone has to do is speak bad of Bush and they get instant credibilty.



I see progressives as being blinded by their dislike for Bush.



They attack Bush for his supposed Support of SBVFTT but ignore smear merchants like moveon.org that has connections to prominent democratic donors.



Both sides are letting independent groups smear their opponent.Bush is not pure,neither is Kerry but some progressives only want to harp on Bush and pretend Kerry is innocent while expecting conservatives to speak up against smear merchants on our side.I have spoke out against the swift boat liars I am waiting for progressive to speak out against moveon.org.



Clarke has the same thing the SBVFTT have,his word and I tend to take what he and they say with a grain of salt.



I believed from the moment they started the SBVFTT were full of crap.



And why do you have a problem with North korea being on a short list.They are a threat to stabilty in Asia.



And to be honest anyone who thinks we are going to go to war with North korea does not know the North korean Army or the battle feild we would face them on.



we might send a couple sorties to knock out any reactors they have but the frigid tempatures of North Korea would reduce the advantage our advanced weapon systems would give us on the ground.



Without that advantage they would tear us a new butt hole.



But North Korea is not a poor innocent vctim of American Imperialism.



And letting them black mail you as Clinton did is not the answer.

Bush's camp may be hawks but I don't believe they are totaly crazy.



Our best bet is to try to keep pressure on them.





And defense has nothing to do with why they want nukes.



Tabby





And no financial aid.Our aid goes t the party fat cats and their sychophants first and then the people and that is not a given.



If I thought the food or other supplies would go to help the starving masses of North Korea I would be the first to say give it to them.



But most of it will never get to those who truly need it.





And i am sick of the rest of the world getting a pass,France has no buissness accusing us of cowboy unalaterialism they wrote the book on cowby un

Edited by: thx1123 at: 8/24/04 5:23 pm
thx1123
 


Re: responding

Postby Kieli » Tue Aug 24, 2004 11:48 am

Quote:
Okay,Iraq was a mistake but to blame the civillians and military deaths solely on Bush is to give a bunch of murdering thugs a free pass.


I suppose I would agree with that up to a point. When you set loose trained killers with conflicting orders and messages, chances are something is going to go wrong. And who's fault is that? Dubya. There's no other way around it. When a leader's initiative fails, he alone must take the blame regardless of whose fault it is exactly. To try to split that many hairs is impossible. It was his directive, his order that started this war. And thus, there is no one else to blame, IMHO.

Quote:
And there is no proof he lied,that is to knowingly and willingly state things he knew to be untrue to get us in war with Iraq.


That is untrue. Even in his own speeches, he admits to keeping certain "facts" (or the lack thereof) to himself and not even having complete proof as justification for this war. Thus, if one has no evidence to justify an action other than "I want to" or "I felt threatened" and tries to convince others without said proof that it is in their best interest to trust him to do the right thing while knowing that such evidence is lacking, he/she is lying. Even a lie of omission is still a lie.

Quote:
And to say that saddam had no WMDS is false.He had them.He got rid of them but we have no prof he destroyed them. I don't think it is overeacting to say that as long as those WMDs out there are unaccounted for everybody could be in danger.Anthrax is bad but is really not a WMD on the scale of Nuclear Waepons,nerve gas or Small pox.We know that saddam had no nukes but at one time he had small pox.All it would take is one terrorist to allow himself to be infected.Even if they nabbed him at the airport by time it was figured out what he was carryiong all chances of containing the epidemic would be lost.We are ill prepared for an outbreak of small pox.I hope the WMD are destroyed but i would sleep easier if we knew for sure.


I don't know where you're getting this, but no one EVER said Saddam NEVER had WMD. The WMDs he did have either were dismantled or no longer posed an immediate threat. I quote the 9-11 report called "WMD in Iraq: Evidence and Implications: Guide to Key Findings" from the 9-11 committee:

Quote:
Iraq’s WMD programs represented a long-term threat that could not be ignored. They did not, however, pose an immediate threat to the United States, to the region, or to global security. (p. 47)



With respect to nuclear and chemical weapons, the extent of the threat was largely knowable at the time. (p. 47)



* Iraq’s nuclear program had been dismantled and there was no convincing evidence of its reconstitution. (p. 47)



* Regarding chemical weapons, UNSCOM discovered that Iraqi nerve agents had lost most of their lethality as early as 1991. Operations Desert Storm and Desert Fox, and UN inspections and sanctions effectively destroyed Iraq’s large-scale chemical weapon production capabilities. For both reasons, it appears that thereafter Iraq focused on preserving a latent, dual-use capability, rather than on weapons production. (p. 47–48)



The uncertainties were much greater with regard to biological weapons. However, the real threat lay in what could be achieved in the future rather than in what had been produced in the past or existed in the present. (p. 48)



* The biological weapons program may also have been converted to dual-use facilities designed to quickly start weapons production in time of war, rather than making and storing these weapons in advance. (p. 48)



The missile program appears to have been the one program in active development in 2002. (p. 48) Iraq was expanding its capability to build missiles whose ranges exceeded UN limits.



It is unlikely that Iraq could have destroyed, hidden, or sent out of the country the hundreds of tons of chemical and biological weapons, dozens of Scud missiles and facilities engaged in the ongoing production of chemical and biological weapons that officials claimed were present without the United States detecting some sign of this activity

before, during, or after the major combat period of the war. (p. 55)



How much radioactive and biological material have been lost and whether they have fallen into the wrong hands remain crucial unknowns. (p. 58–59)



Prior to 2002, the intelligence community appears to have overestimated the chemical and biological weapons in Iraq but had a generally accurate picture of the nuclear and missile programs. (p. 50)



The dramatic shift between prior intelligence assessments and the October 2002 National Intelligence Estimate (NIE), together with the creation of an independent intelligence entity at the Pentagon and other steps, suggest that the intelligence community began to be unduly influenced by policymakers’ views sometime in 2002. (p. 50)



There was and is no solid evidence of a cooperative relationship between Saddam’s government and Al Qaeda. (p. 48)



There was no evidence to support the claim that Iraq would have transferred WMD to Al Qaeda and much evidence to counter it. (p. 48)



The notion that any government would give its principal security assets to people it could not control in order to achieve its own political aims is highly dubious. (p. 49)



Today, the most likely source of a nuclear terrorist threat would be from theft or purchase of fi ssile material or tactical nuclear weapons from poorly guarded stockpiles in Russia and other former Soviet states, including Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan, and Ukraine. The security of Pakistan’s nuclear assets, including technology and know how, is also a major concern. (p. 50)



Administration officials systematically misrepresented the threat from Iraq’s WMD and ballistic missile programs, beyond the intelligence failures noted above, by:

* Treating nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons as a single “WMD threat.”

The conflation of three distinct threats, very different in the danger they pose, distorted the cost/benefi t analysis of the war. (p. 52)

* Insisting without evidence—yet treating as a given truth—that Saddam Hussein would give whatever WMD he possessed to terrorists. (p. 52)

* Routinely dropping caveats, probabilities, and expressions of uncertainty present in intelligence assessments from public statements. (p. 53)

* Misrepresenting inspectors’ findings in ways that turned threats from minor to dire. (p. 53)



While worst case planning is valid and vital, acting on worst case assumptions is neither safe nor wise. (p. 54)



The assertion that the threat that became visible on 9/11 invalidated deterrence against states does not stand up to close scrutiny. (p. 57)



Saddam’s responses to international pressure and international weakness from the 1991 war onward show that while unpredictable he was not undeterrable. (p. 57)



The UN inspection process appears to have been much more successful than recognized before the war. Nine months of exhaustive searches by the U.S. and coalition forces suggest that inspectors were actually in the process of finding what was there. Thus, the choice was never between war and doing nothing about Iraq’s WMD. (p. 55)



In addition to inspections, a combination of international constraints—sanctions, procurement investigations, and the export/import control mechanism—also appears to have been considerably more effective than was thought. (p. 56)



The knowledge, prior experience in Iraq, relationships with Iraqi scientists and officials, and credibility of UNMOVIC experts represent a vital resource that has been ignored when it should be being fully exploited. (p. 51)



To reconstruct an accurate history of Iraq’s WMD programs, the data from the seven years of UNSCOM/IAEA inspections are absolutely essential. The involvement of the inspectors and scientists who compiled the more-than-30-million-page record is needed to effectively mine it. (p. 56)



Considering all the costs and benefi ts, there were at least two options clearly preferable to a war undertaken without international support: allowing the UNMOVIC/IAEA inspections to continue until obstructed or completed, or imposing a tougher program of “coercive inspections” backed by a specially designed international force. (p. 59)



Even a war successful on other counts could leave behind three significant WMD threats: lost material, “loose” scientists, and the message that only nuclear weapons could protect a state from foreign invasion. (p. 58)



The National Security Strategy’s new doctrine of preemptive military action is actually a loose standard for preventive war under the cloak of legitimate preemption. (p. 60)



In the Iraqi case, the world’s three best intelligence services proved unable to provide the accurate information necessary for acting in the absence of imminent threat. (p. 61)




Actually reading at least SOME evidence to support your sweeping statements might be more helpful if you want people to at least entertain your POV.

Quote:
My thing is I am leary becuase the North Korean leadership has no regard for human life.They are content to live in luxury while their people starve.I do not see a rational mind in charge there.


I find this statement the most entertaining since the US has been supporting these types of people (read: DICTATORS and their ilk) for many many years....let's see, the Taliban, Idi Amin, Noriega and, as you can see HERE, the list goeth on. So don't think that the US is worthy of this pedestal we've been putting ourselves on. We're not clean nor blameless by a long shot.

Quote:
And there has been no back door draft.Gaurdsmen and reservist are told when they sign up they may be deployed at anytime for any length of time and stop loss orders of some kind are issued during just about every conflict.


This is completely false. My father and brothers, all former Army and my dad has been retired for almost 15 yrs, have already received letters notifying them that they could be called. Again, getting a bit more info might help you here.

Quote:
I wish no one had nukes but I also think unilateral nuclear disarmament is a mistake.


It's not a mistake, just an unrealistic expectation. There are a good deal of holes in your arguments. However, you're entitled to your opinion. Just make sure it's an INFORMED one instead of an UNINFORMED one. Clearly, you need to do your homework.


Time flies by when the Devil drives.
It's not the pace of life that concerns me, it's the sudden stop at the end.

Edited by: Kieli at: 8/24/04 10:51 am
Kieli
 


Re: responding

Postby sam7777 » Tue Aug 24, 2004 12:58 pm

angel of salvation: Agreed. The problem I see with Bush is that he doesn't seem to have an interest in being president of the whole United States. Using bigotry against gays to energize his base, is mean sprited at best and hatemongering at worse. I don't believe that Bush will do anything for anyone that does not vote for him. He's seems to be only interested in his conservative base. Truly a shame in such a diverse country. We deserve better.



_____________________

I still see dead lesbian cliches

Edited by: sam7777  at: 8/24/04 4:57 pm
sam7777
 


Re: Is Bush In Trouble?

Postby Gatito Grande » Tue Aug 24, 2004 1:00 pm

Quote:
And i am sick of the rest of the world getting a pass




Not nearly as sick as the rest of the world is of U.S. greed, hypocrisy, brutality, ignorance and overbearing ARROGANCE.*



Tabby, could you at least try to remember that there are Kittens from all over "the rest of the world" when you make sweeping generalizations like the above? :(



GG Yesterday's terrorist has become today's hero in much of the Muslim world, and may become tomorrow's vanguard in the rest, if the U.S. does not present a "more sensitive foreign policy" . . . as Kerry rightly says, dammit! (Pro-war draft-dodger Dick Cheney can go "4F" himself!) :mad Out



*On average, survey sez (Kieli could probably find you a link! :) ).



GG, squinting towards crappy old monitor to make a point . . . :sigh

Gatito Grande
 


Re: Is Bush In Trouble?

Postby sam7777 » Tue Aug 24, 2004 6:06 pm

GG: Indeed. If Kieli cannot find it, then it prolly doesn't exist.



Well this American citizen deplores the antagonistic foreign policy that the Bush administration has adopted. Bullying and insulting your allies is simply not the way a superpower should act IMHO. The US has lost respect all over the world. On the one hand, the administration says they want to bring democracy while decrying democracies like Spain, Germany or France because they don't agree with them. Apparently the only "democracy" they want to support is one that they fully control like Iraq. Bushies simply refuse to see the big picture. The planet Earth is more than the United States of America.

_____________________

I still see dead lesbian cliches

sam7777
 


Re: Is Bush in trouble?

Postby Kieli » Tue Aug 24, 2004 6:46 pm

Quote:
GG: Indeed. If Kieli cannot find it, then it prolly doesn't exist.


You guys give me too much credit. Most of my sources can be found with either a simple Google search or a quick trip to the library (does anyone do that anymore??).



To answer GG's question, though, one does not necessarily need a poll to gauge the attitudes towards the US overseas...just read the European newsagents. I refer you to the following links just to name a few:



BBC News: Is political advertising in the US getting dirty?



BBC News: US Military Shakeup: Your Views



Germany's DIE ZEIT (their political commentary page has a lot of pretty good articles IMHO)



My Italian and Czech is not good enough to get some of those newsagents' articles online but I'm sure some enterprising Kitten can be helpful.



Quote:


Well this American citizen deplores the antagonistic foreign policy that the Bush administration has adopted. Bullying and insulting your allies is simply not the way a superpower should act IMHO. The US has lost respect all over the world. On the one hand, the administration says they want to bring democracy while decrying democracies like Spain, Germany or France because they don't agree with them. Apparently the only "democracy" they want to support is one that they fully control like Iraq. Bushies simply refuse to see the big picture. The planet Earth is more than the United States of America.


Agreed on all fronts and well said. However, I want to point out that I think American politics in general has gotten a bit too big for its britches. The US fails to see that our "superpower status" was not a "God given" right but a matter of happenstance....we have one of the largest landmasses in the world with a fairly dense population and a relatively stable economy (as compared to third-world and Communist countries; right now Germany and the UK seem to be outdoing us as far as the value of their currency is concerned). We helped to win WWII only because we got a bloody nose at Pearl Harbor. Had that not happened, I highly doubt the US would've found that perfect opportunity to plant military bases and embassies all over the world to affect foreign policy to our advantage. We've been playing puppetmaster for far too long without severe consequences and now we're paying for our bit of hubris ten-fold.






Time flies by when the Devil drives.
It's not the pace of life that concerns me, it's the sudden stop at the end.

Kieli
 


Re: responding

Postby sam7777 » Tue Aug 24, 2004 7:14 pm

Quote:
We've been playing puppetmaster for far too long without severe consequences and now we're paying for our bit of hubris ten-fold.
Kieli: Indeed. Every empire falls. US foreign policy has never been ideal but in the past 3 years it has set back international relations more than the past 20 years IMHO. As to credit, it may be a google or library search but few could put together such a cogent argument.

Edited by: sam7777  at: 8/24/04 6:16 pm
sam7777
 


Re: responding

Postby thx1123 » Tue Aug 24, 2004 7:47 pm





I am sick of being accused of ignorance becuase I do not agree with you.



I admit withthe brain injury I get confused some times and muddle stuff up but I just do not listen to Rush and mindlessly parrot him.





My intepretations of the facts may be different but that does not mean I am pulling stuff out of my ass.



And to adress a point I did forget about the recall of former active duty personnel.But that is not a back door drft.When dad retired he was told he could be recalled at anytime as well as everyone else who gets out of the militaary whether by retiring or just not reupping.





Bush did not create the veteran recall or stop loss orders.











It was asumed I knew nothing about it.Why becuase my POV is different.





And I take what so called arm inspectors say with a grain of salt.I read their reports and do not agree.That does not make me ignorant just contrarian.I think most of them could not find an elephant stuck in a telehone booth.



That is my opinion based on what I have read.









Also please get it through your heads.I do not support Bush.







I happen to think he is a well meaning throughly incompentent boob.



And I readily acknowledge there are those abroad who have cuase to hate us.We have acted like the only nation in the world is the US.But nothing justifies the slaughter of civillians which Bsh has cuased to happen.But the blame must also be put on the thugs,the terrorists not our soliders,who set the bombs and shoot the innocents.



I am not giving him a pass but I also have no ax to grind with him,just his policies.



Tabby







And if I get a smoking gun,a taped cionservsation ala Nxon that he knowingly lied to us and waged a war he knew to be unessecary i don't just want hin imeached I want him tried for crimes against community,but I prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt.



I have reservations about Kerry but I think he is an honrable guy and give him the benefit of the doubt and my vote.



I can always change it in 08.







thx1123
 


Re: responding

Postby Kieli » Tue Aug 24, 2004 8:06 pm

Quote:
I am sick of being accused of ignorance becuase I do not agree with you.


Please do pay attention then because I'm not saying this again. I'm am NOT accusing you of ignorance because you do not agree with me; I am accusing you of ignorance because your posts show that you truly are ignorant of the facts. You have not shown in ANY of your posts your command of the facts, of the knowledge readily available to anyone with the presence of mind (no pun intended, I do not wish to demean your brain injury in the slightest) to look up the facts.

Quote:
My intepretations of the facts may be different but that does not mean I am pulling stuff out of my ass.


I beg to differ since I'm not quite sure you were even aware of many of the facts I posted here for your perusal nor am I even sure you went to check up on the so-called "facts" the media gives out like candy for pacification of the masses.

Quote:
And I take what so called arm inspectors say with a grain of salt.I read their reports and do not agree.That does not make me ignorant just contrarian.I think most of them could not find an elephant stuck in a telehone booth.


Really? How interesting that you've now become a weapons expert....tell me, have you handled weapons grade plutonium in your lifetime? Have you been trained as a weapons inspector? If not, how do you have the means to form an opinion if you've no knowledge of what criteria they are using as a basis for inspection? This is what I mean about people having uninformed opinions. Who can take an argument seriously if it has no credible (or even plausible) support?

Quote:
It was asumed I knew nothing about it.Why becuase my POV is different.


Untrue....I didn't assume you knew nothing about it. I hypothesized that you knew little about it. Your retraction now supports my hypothesis.

Quote:
But the blame must also be put on the thugs,the terrorists not our soliders,who set the bombs and shoot the innocents.


Let's be quite clear, shall we? No one EVER said that the terrorists are not to blame for the violence going on. Violence begets violence and no good can come from it. However, the US is in large part responsible for allowing the terrorist groups to exist in the first place. It is quite simple to convince a poor, enslaved and starving person that their lot is the fault of a richer, obnoxious country who is flaunts the wealth but does not share it as much as it should. It is not difficult at all to incite those who have nothing to perpetuate violence on those who have all in order to bring about change. It is quite easy for those with high intelligence and education (note that most terrorist organizations have leaders that were either trained in this country or educated by our Western allies...I find that fact rather ironic as do the terrorists themselves) to manipulate those without such learning and knowlege who have the best of intentions (at least initially) when joining said organizations. The terrorist leaders, I feel, are the ones who must be held most accountable, as they are the ones who usually escape justice and do not do the dying themselves unless quite by accident. And one can never really know the motivation of a terrorist leader, even with all of the religious and political rhetoric they spout for all the world to hear. But terrorists are not born, contrary to popular belief. There are specific sets of circumstances that mould and shape them into killers. The US helped with that. Make no mistake.




Time flies by when the Devil drives.
It's not the pace of life that concerns me, it's the sudden stop at the end.

Kieli
 


Re: Is Bush in trouble? I hope so....

Postby Triscuit7 » Tue Aug 24, 2004 9:04 pm

Bush a "well-meaning thoroughly incompentent boob"? Nah. IMHO he's not well-meaning, but I'd agree with the rest easily enough though.



I read Clarke's "Against All Enemies" over the summer and found it very even-handed. Clarke basically says intelligence regarding terrorists and the Middle East has been messed up for years, pre-dating Dubya, pre-dating Clinton, pre-dating Bush Sr. He supplies evidence that to some degree Reagan created bin-Laden's and al-Qaeda's reason for being by setting up the bases on Saudi Arabia's sacred soil to keep the USSR in check (policy continued and expanded by Bush Sr to launch the Gulf War). Bin-Laden was actually sent to Afghanistan to organize resistance against the USSR; he doesn't become a "bad guy" until the 1990s. Clinton couldn't get the intelligence folks take him out when he was spotted at various training camps in Afghanistan mainly because they wanted to keep the robot spy drones a secret. The thing Clinton was able to do was to block various terrorist plans for Y2K. Clarke's book deals with all of Dubya's recent predecessors; it also indicates that his misfortune is primarily of his own making.



From the point he took office Dubya willfully ignored advice when it contradicted his own opinions. Susskind's book, Price of Loyalty, makes it clear what happens to staff who disagreed with the party line. Clarke had/has a big mouth. It's one of the things that he's best known for. In Dubya's administration, he was shut down. No one would listen to him about al-Qaeda and bin-Laden. You have to wonder...what if?



Hindsight is a wonderful thing.



Ciao, Melissa





******************



Do something totally irrational and let the enemy think himself to death. (Pyanfar Chanur)

Triscuit7
 


Re: Dubya gets dumber and dumber

Postby The Angry Lion » Tue Aug 24, 2004 11:21 pm

why am I not surprised that Richard Clarke would come in for the character assassination attempt, um, how exactly is he less credible then the highly uncredible swift boat slanderers? its very easy to accuse him of spite, but spite is often what is necessary for some ppl to come forward and tell the truth

There is ample evidence that the swift boat ppl are fuill of it, to my knowledge besides vague accusations there is no real evidence to undermine Richard Clarkes pov. Your also forgetting the major influence of Project for a new American Century on the Busdh Ad, PNAC has wanted war with Iraq years before Bush was selected for the white house.

Im gonna leave this North Korea thing, after I dont want to look like a closet Stalinist or anything, Ive made my points already and Im moving on, but Im just saying that you have no evidence to back youre theories of North Korea up, and ppl are starving in India, and Pakistan as well, while the ruling class lives in luxury, I trust Inida and Pakistan much less with their nukes, no doubt.



btw all of frances unilateralism is well in the past, Bushes is the present, Ill admit that Chirac is hardly the most upstanding guy, but hes certainly not on any unilateral stance.



as for the whole swift boat thing, amazing to see you try to use that against the left, you see I think that it (for the umpteenth time) proves that the right has zero moral authority, they attack Michael Moore, Al Franken etc etc( and wheres the proof that Michael Moore is a liar, the real proof?, wheres the proof that Al is?) and then they rush to embrace anyone who can put the dirty on John Kerry

you see I am aware you dont plan to vote for bush, good, although thats your decision and ultimately not my business who you vote for, im also aware that you dont have knee jerk responses on issues, Im glad you want to see the cuban embargo ended, so do I. But you seem to be showing a lot of intolerance yourself towards ppl and groups who disagree with bush, like you, but do so from a more lefty perspective (my opinion yes but thats how i feel)

My Country is the World. My Coutrymen Mankind-Thomas Paine

The Angry Lion
 


Re: responding

Postby urnofosiris » Wed Aug 25, 2004 12:32 am

Quote:
And I take what so called arm inspectors say with a grain of salt.I read their reports and do not agree.That does not make me ignorant just contrarian.I think most of them could not find an elephant stuck in a telehone booth.




On what facts do you dismiss them so easily? Not that it matters that you do, but when Bush does, it becomes another matter. When he choose to *not* believe there were no weapons of mass destruction, he had the excuse he needed to start his war. Why take what those inspectors, who actually went to Iraq, said with a grain of salt, but just blindly believe George Bush when he claimed ´there are weapons of mass destruction´. Maybe George knew the real deal and decided to go with information that was more convenient. Is that same as lying? Comes pretty damn close to it in my book. At the very least he is guilty of starting a war based on information that was at best questionable. He does not have the luxury of being a well meaning incompetent boob if that incompetence costs thousands of lives.



Quote:
Also please get it through your heads.I do not support Bush.




By now it is pretty clear you do not support Bush (you just defend him whenever someone criticizes him), you have said so in almost every post you make, I actually heard you the first time, so no more need to try and get that through my head thank you. Btw, any axes being grinded against him are based on his policies. If he were just an anonymous guy somewhere in the US, I doubt we would be talking about him. Unfortunately he happens to be the president of a country that has the power to influence the rest of the world.

urnofosiris
 


Re: Speech by Arundhati Roy

Postby Diebrock » Wed Aug 25, 2004 9:39 am

It's long. But good. And we need to hear more from people representing the "Third World".






Transcript of full speech by Arundhati Roy in San Francisco, California on August 16th, 2004.



TIDE? OR IVORY SNOW?

Public Power in the Age of Empire




I've been asked to speak about "Public Power in the Age of Empire." I'm not used to doing as I'm told, but by happy coincidence, it's exactly what I'd like to speak about tonight.



When language has been butchered and bled of meaning, how do we understand "public power"? When freedom means occupation, when democracy means neo-liberal capitalism, when reform means repression, when words like "empowerment" and "peacekeeping" make your blood run cold - why, then, "public power" could mean whatever you want it to mean. A biceps building machine, or a Community Power Shower. So, I'll just have to define "public power" as I go along, in my own self-serving sort of way.



In India, the word public is now a Hindi word. It means people. In Hindi, we have sarkar and public, the government and the people. Inherent in this use is the underlying assumption that the government is quite separate from "the people." This distinction has to do with the fact that India's freedom struggle, though magnificent, was by no means revolutionary. The Indian elite stepped easily and elegantly into the shoes of the British imperialists. A deeply impoverished, essentially feudal society became a modern, independent nation state. Even today, fifty seven years on to the day, the truly vanquished still look upon the government as mai-baap, the parent and provider. The somewhat more radical, those who still have fire in their bellies, see it as chor, the thief, the snatcher-away of all things.



Either way, for most Indians, sarkar is very separate from public. However, as you make your way up India's social ladder, the distinction between sarkar and public gets blurred. The Indian elite, like the elite anywhere in the world, finds it hard to separate itself from the state. It sees like the state, it thinks like the state, it speaks like the state.



In the United States, on the other hand, the blurring of the distinction between sarkar and public has penetrated far deeper into society. This could be a sign of a robust democracy, but unfortunately, it's a little more complicated and less pretty than that. Among other things, it has to do with the elaborate web of paranoia generated by the U.S. sarkar and spun out by the corporate media and Hollywood. Ordinary Americans have been manipulated into imagining they are a people under siege whose sole refuge and protector is their government. If it isn't the Communists, it's al-Qaeda. If it isn't Cuba. it's Nicaragua. As a result, this, the most powerful nation in the world - with its unmatchable arsenal of weapons, its history of having waged and sponsored endless wars, and the only nation in history to have actually used nuclear bombs - is peopled by a terrified citizenry, jumping at shadows. A people bonded to the state not by social services, or public health care, or employment guarantees, but by fear.



This synthetically manufactured fear is used to gain public sanction for further acts of aggression. And so it goes, building into a spiral of self-fulfilling hysteria, now formally calibrated by the U.S government's Amazing Technicolored Terror Alerts: fuchsia, turquoise, salmon pink.



To outside observers, this merging of sarkar and public in the United States sometimes makes it hard to separate the actions of the U.S. government from the American people. It is this confusion that fuels anti-Americanism in the world. Anti-Americanism is then seized upon and amplified by the U.S. government and its faithful media outlets. You know the routine: "Why do they hate us? They hate our freedoms" . . . etc. . . . etc. This enhances the sense of isolation among American people and makes the embrace between sarkar and public even more intimate. Like Red Riding Hood looking for a cuddle in the wolf's bed.



Using the threat of an external enemy to rally people behind you is a tired old horse, which politicians have ridden into power for centuries. But could it be that ordinary people are fed up of that poor old horse and are looking for something different? There's an old Hindi film song that goes yeh public hai, yeh sab jaanti hai (the public, she knows it all). Wouldn't it be lovely if the song were right and the politicians wrong?



Before Washington's illegal invasion of Iraq, a Gallup International poll showed that in no European country was the support for a unilateral war higher than 11 percent. On February 15, 2003, weeks before the invasion, more than ten million people marched against the war on different continents, including North America. And yet the governments of many supposedly democratic countries still went to war.



The question is: is "democracy" still democratic?



Are democratic governments accountable to the people who elected them? And, critically, is the public in democratic countries responsible for the actions of its sarkar?



If you think about it, the logic that underlies the war on terrorism and the logic that underlies terrorism is exactly the same. Both make ordinary citizens pay for the actions of their government. Al-Qaeda made the people of the United States pay with their lives for the actions of their government in Palestine, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, and Afghanistan. The U.S government has made the people of Afghanistan pay in their thousands for the actions of the Taliban and the people of Iraq pay in their hundreds of thousands for the actions of Saddam Hussein.



The crucial difference is that nobody really elected al-Qaeda, the Taliban, or Saddam Hussein. But the president of the United States was elected (well ... in a manner of speaking).



The prime ministers of Italy, Spain, and the United Kingdom were elected. Could it then be argued that citizens of these countries are more responsible for the actions of their government than Iraqis are for the actions of Saddam Hussein or Afghans for the Taliban?



Whose God decides which is a "just war" and which isn't? George Bush senior once said: "I will never apologize for the United States. I don't care what the facts are." When the president of the most powerful country in the world doesn't need to care what the facts are, then we can at least be sure we have entered the Age of Empire.



So what does public power mean in the Age of Empire? Does it mean anything at all? Does it actually exist?



In these allegedly democratic times, conventional political thought holds that public power is exercised through the ballot. Scores of countries in the world will go to the polls this year. Most (not all) of them will get the governments they vote for. But will they get the governments they want?



In India this year, we voted the Hindu nationalists out of office. But even as we celebrated, we knew that on nuclear bombs, neo-liberalism, privatization, censorship, big dams - on every major issue other than overt Hindu nationalism - the Congress and the BJP have no major ideological differences. We know that it is the fifty-year legacy of the Congress Party that prepared the ground culturally and politically for the far right. It was also the Congress Party that first opened India's markets to corporate globalization.



In its election campaign, the Congress Party indicated that it was prepared to rethink some of its earlier economic policies. Millions of India's poorest people came out in strength to vote in the elections. The spectacle of the great Indian democracy was telecast live - the poor farmers, the old and infirm, the veiled women with their beautiful silver jewelry, making quaint journeys to election booths on elephants and camels and bullock carts. Contrary to the predictions of all India's experts and pollsters, Congress won more votes than any other party. India's communist parties won the largest share of the vote in their history. India's poor had clearly voted against neo-liberalism's economic "reforms" and growing fascism. As soon as the votes were counted, the corporate media dispatched them like badly paid extras on a film set. Television channels featured split screens. Half the screen showed the chaos outside the home of Sonia Gandhi, the leader of the Congress Party, as the coalition government was cobbled together.



The other half showed frenzied stockbrokers outside the Bombay Stock Exchange, panicking at the thought that the Congress Party might actually honor its promises and implement its electoral mandate. We saw the Sensex stock index move up and down and sideways. The media, whose own publicly listed stocks were plummeting, reported the stock market crash as though Pakistan had launched ICBMs on New Delhi.



Even before the new government was formally sworn in, senior Congress politicians made public statements reassuring investors and the media that privatization of public utilities would continue. Meanwhile the BJP, now in opposition, has cynically, and comically, begun to oppose foreign direct investment and the further opening of Indian markets.



This is the spurious, evolving dialectic of electoral democracy.



As for the Indian poor, once they've provided the votes, they are expected to bugger off home. Policy will be decided despite them.



And what of the U.S. elections? Do U.S. voters have a real choice?



It's true that if John Kerry becomes president, some of the oil tycoons and Christian fundamentalists in the White House will change. Few will be sorry to see the back of Dick Cheney or Donald Rumsfeld or John Ashcroft and their blatant thuggery. But the real concern is that in the new administration their policies will continue. That we will have Bushism without Bush.



Those positions of real power - the bankers, the CEOs - are not vulnerable to the vote (. . . and in any case, they fund both sides).



Unfortunately the importance of the U.S elections has deteriorated into a sort of personality contest. A squabble over who would do a better job of overseeing empire. John Kerry believes in the idea of empire as fervently as George Bush does.



The U.S. political system has been carefully crafted to ensure that no one who questions the natural goodness of the military-industrial-corporate power structure will be allowed through the portals of power.



Given this, it's no surprise that in this election you have two Yale University graduates, both members of Skull and Bones, the same secret society, both millionaires, both playing at soldier-soldier, both talking up war, and arguing almost childishly about who will lead the war on terror more effectively.



Like President Bill Clinton before him, Kerry will continue the expansion of U.S. economic and military penetration into the world. He says he would have voted to authorize Bush to go to war in Iraq even if he had known that Iraq had no weapons of mass destruction. He promises to commit more troops to Iraq. He said recently that he supports Bush's policies toward Israel and Ariel Sharon 100 percent. He says he'll retain 98% of Bush's tax cuts.



So, underneath the shrill exchange of insults, there is almost absolute consensus. It looks as though even if Americans vote for Kerry, they'll still get Bush. President John Kerbush or President George Berry.



It's not a real choice. It's an apparent choice. Like choosing a brand of detergent. Whether you buy Ivory Snow or Tide, they're both owned by Proctor & Gamble.



This doesn't mean that one takes a position that is without nuance, that the Congress and the BJP, New Labor and the Tories, the Democrats and Republicans are the same. Of course, they're not. Neither are Tide and Ivory Snow. Tide has oxy-boosting and Ivory Snow is a gentle cleanser.



In India, there is a difference between an overtly fascist party (the BJP) and a party that slyly pits one community against another (Congress), and sows the seeds of communalism that are then so ably harvested by the BJP.



There are differences in the I.Q.s and levels of ruthlessness between this year's U.S. presidential candidates. The anti-war movement in the United States has done a phenomenal job of exposing the lies and venality that led to the invasion of Iraq, despite the propaganda and intimidation it faced.



This was a service not just to people here, but to the whole world. But now, if the anti-war movement openly campaigns for Kerry, the rest of the world will think that it approves of his policies of "sensitive" imperialism. Is U.S. imperialism preferable if it is supported by the United Nations and European countries? Is it preferable if UN asks Indian and Pakistani soldiers to do the killing and dying in Iraq instead of U.S. soldiers? Is the only change that Iraqis can hope for that French, German, and Russian companies will share in the spoils of the occupation of their country?



Is this actually better or worse for those of us who live in subject nations? Is it better for the world to have a smarter emperor in power or a stupider one? Is that our only choice?



I'm sorry, I know that these are uncomfortable, even brutal questions, but they must be asked.



The fact is that electoral democracy has become a process of cynical manipulation. It offers us a very reduced political space today. To believe that this space constitutes real choice would be naïve.



The crisis in modern democracy is a profound one.



On the global stage, beyond the jurisdiction of sovereign governments, international instruments of trade and finance oversee a complex system of multilateral laws and agreements that have entrenched a system of appropriation that puts colonialism to shame. This system allows the unrestricted entry and exit of massive amounts of speculative capital - hot money - into and out of third world countries, which then effectively dictates their economic policy. Using the threat of capital flight as a lever, international capital insinuates itself deeper and deeper into these economies. Giant transnational corporations are taking control of their essential infrastructure and natural resources, their minerals, their water, their electricity. The World Trade Organization, the World Bank, the International Monetary Fund, and other financial institutions like the Asian Development Bank, virtually write economic policy and parliamentary legislation. With a deadly combination of arrogance and ruthlessness, they take their sledgehammers to fragile, interdependent, historically complex societies, and devastate them.



All this goes under the fluttering banner of "reform."



As a consequence of this reform, in Africa, Asia, and Latin America, thousands of small enterprises and industries have closed down, millions of workers and farmers have lost their jobs and land.



The Spectator newspaper in London assures us that "[w]e live in the happiest, healthiest and most peaceful era in human history." Billions wonder: who's "we"? Where does he live? What's his Christian name?



The thing to understand is that modern democracy is safely premised on an almost religious acceptance of the nation state. But corporate globalization is not. Liquid capital is not. So, even though capital needs the coercive powers of the nation state to put down revolts in the servants' quarters, this set up ensures that no individual nation can oppose corporate globalization on its own.



Radical change cannot and will not be negotiated by governments; it can only be enforced by people. By the public. A public who can link hands across national borders.



So when we speak of "Public Power in the Age of Empire," I hope it's not presumptuous to assume that the only thing that is worth discussing seriously is the power of a dissenting public. A public which disagrees with the very concept of empire. A public which has set itself against incumbent power - international, national, regional, or provincial governments and institutions that support and service empire.



What are the avenues of protest available to people who wish to resist empire? By resist I don't mean only to express dissent, but to effectively force change. Empire has a range of calling cards. It uses different weapons to break open different markets. You know the check book and the cruise missile



For poor people in many countries, Empire does not always appear in the form of cruise missiles and tanks, as it has in Iraq or Afghanistan or Vietnam. It appears in their lives in very local avatars - losing their jobs, being sent unpayable electricity bills, having their water supply cut, being evicted from their homes and uprooted from their land. All this overseen by the repressive machinery of the state, the police, the army, the judiciary. It is a process of relentless impoverishment with which the poor are historically familiar. What Empire does is to further entrench and exacerbate already existing inequalities.



Even until quite recently, it was sometimes difficult for people to see themselves as victims of the conquests of Empire. But now local struggles have begun to see their role with increasing clarity. However grand it might sound, the fact is, they are confronting Empire in their own, very different ways. Differently in Iraq, in South Africa, in India, in Argentina, and differently, for that matter, on the streets of Europe and the United States.



Mass resistance movements, individual activists, journalists, artists, and film makers have come together to strip Empire of its sheen. They have connected the dots, turned cash-flow charts and boardroom speeches into real stories about real people and real despair. They have shown how the neo-liberal project has cost people their homes, their land, their jobs, their liberty, their dignity. They have made the intangible tangible. The once seemingly in-CORP-o-real enemy is now CORP-o-real.



This is a huge victory. It was forged by the coming together of disparate political groups, with a variety of strategies. But they all recognized that the target of their anger, their activism, and their doggedness is the same. This was the beginning of real globalization. The globalization of dissent.



Broadly speaking, there are two kinds of mass resistance movements in third world countries today. The landless peoples' movement in Brazil, the anti-dam movement in India, the Zapatistas in Mexico, the Anti-Privatization Forum in South Africa, and hundreds of others, are fighting their own sovereign governments, which have become agents of the neo-liberal project. Most of these are radical struggles, fighting to change the structure and chosen model of "development" of their own societies.



Then there are those fighting formal and brutal neocolonial occupations in contested territories whose boundaries and fault lines were often arbitrarily drawn last century by the imperialist powers. In Palestine, Tibet, Chechnya, Kashmir, and several states in India's northeast provinces, people are waging struggles for self-determination.



Several of these struggles might have been radical, even revolutionary when they began, but often the brutality of the repression they face pushes them into conservative, even retrogressive spaces in which they use the same violent strategies and the same language of religious and cultural nationalism used by the states they seek to replace.



Many of the foot soldiers in these struggles will find, like those who fought apartheid in South Africa, that once they overcome overt occupation, they will be left with another battle on their hands - a battle against covert economic colonialism.



Meanwhile, as the rift between rich and poor is being driven deeper and the battle to control the world's resources intensifies. Economic colonialism through formal military aggression is staging a comeback.



Iraq today is a tragic illustration of this process. An illegal invasion. A brutal occupation in the name of liberation. The rewriting of laws that allow the shameless appropriation of the country's wealth and resources by corporations allied to the occupation, and now the charade of a local "Iraqi government."



For these reasons, it is absurd to condemn the resistance to the U.S. occupation in Iraq, as being masterminded by terrorists or insurgents or supporters of Saddam Hussein. After all if the United States were invaded and occupied, would everybody who fought to liberate it be a terrorist or an insurgent or a Bushite?



The Iraqi resistance is fighting on the frontlines of the battle against Empire. And therefore that battle is our battle.



Like most resistance movements, it combines a motley range of assorted factions. Former Baathists, liberals, Islamists, fed-up collaborationists, communists, etc. Of course, it is riddled with opportunism, local rivalry, demagoguery, and criminality. But if we are only going to support pristine movements, then no resistance will be worthy of our purity.



This is not to say that we shouldn't ever criticize resistance movements. Many of them suffer from a lack of democracy, from the iconization of their "leaders," a lack of transparency, a lack of vision and direction. But most of all they suffer from vilification, repression, and lack of resources.



Before we prescribe how a pristine Iraqi resistance must conduct their secular, feminist, democratic, nonviolent battle, we should shore up our end of the resistance by forcing the U.S. and its allies government to withdraw from Iraq.



The first militant confrontation in the United States between the global justice movement and the neo-liberal junta took place famously at the WTO conference in Seattle in December 1999. To many mass movements in developing countries that had long been fighting lonely, isolated battles, Seattle was the first delightful sign that their anger and their vision of another kind of world was shared by people in the imperialist countries.



In January 2001, in Porto Alegre, Brazil, 20,000 activists, students, film makers - some of the best minds in the world - came together to share their experiences and exchange ideas about confronting Empire. That was the birth of the now historic World Social Forum. It was the first, formal coming together of an exciting, anarchic, unindoctrinated, energetic, new kind of "Public Power." The rallying cry of the WSF is "Another World is Possible." It has become a platform where hundreds of conversations, debates, and seminars have helped to hone and refine a vision of what kind of world it should be.



By January 2004, when the fourth WSF was held in Mumbai, India, it attracted 200,000 delegates. I have never been part of a more electrifying gathering. It was a sign of the social forum's success that the mainstream media in India ignored it completely. But now, the WSF is threatened by its own success. The safe, open, festive atmosphere of the forum has allowed politicians and nongovernmental organizations that are imbricated in the political and economic systems that the forum opposes to participate and make themselves heard.



Another danger is that the WSF, which has played such a vital role in the movement for global justice, runs the risk of becoming an end unto itself. Just organizing it every year consumes the energies of some of the best activists. If conversations about resistance replace real civil disobedience, then the WSF could become an asset to those whom it was created to oppose. The forum must be held and must grow, but we have to find ways to channel our conversations there back into concrete action.



As resistance movements have begun to reach out across national borders and pose a real threat, governments have developed their own strategies of how to deal with them. They range from cooptation to repression.



I'm going to speak about three of the contemporary dangers that confront resistance movements: the difficult meeting point between mass movements and the mass media, the hazards of the NGO-ization of resistance, and the confrontation between resistance movements and increasingly repressive states.



The place in which the mass media meets mass movements is a complicated one.



Governments have learned that a crisis-driven media cannot afford to hang about in the same place for too long. Like business houses need a cash turnover, the media need crises turnover. Whole countries become old news. They cease to exist, and the darkness becomes deeper than before the light was briefly shone on them. We saw it happen in Afghanistan when the Soviets withdrew. And now, after Operation Enduring Freedom put the CIA's Hamid Karzai in place, Afghanistan has been thrown to its warlords once more.



Another CIA operative, Iyad Allawi, has been installed in Iraq, so perhaps it's time for the media to move on from there, too.



While governments hone the art of waiting out crisis, resistance movements are increasingly being ensnared in a vortex of crisis production, seeking to find ways of manufacturing them in easily consumable, spectator-friendly formats.



Every self-respecting peoples' movement, every "issue" is expected to have its own hot air balloon in the sky advertising its brand and purpose.



For this reason, starvation deaths are more effective advertisements for impoverishment than millions of malnourished people, who don't quite make the cut. Dams are not newsworthy until the devastation they wreak makes good television. (And by then, it's too late).



Standing in the rising water of a reservoir for days on end, watching your home and belongings float away to protest against a big dam used to be an effective strategy, but isn't any more. The media is dead bored of that one. So the hundreds of thousands of people being displaced by dams are expected to either conjure new tricks or give up the struggle.



Colorful demonstrations and weekend marches are vital but alone are not powerful enough to stop wars. Wars will be stopped only when soldiers refuse to fight, when workers refuse to load weapons onto ships and aircrafts, when people boycott the economic outposts of Empire that are strung across the globe.



If we want to reclaim the space for civil disobedience, we will have to liberate ourselves from the tyranny of crisis reportage and its fear of the mundane. We have to use our experience, our imagination, and our art to interrogate the instruments of that state that ensure that "normality" remains what it is: cruel, unjust, unacceptable. We have to expose the policies and processes that make ordinary things - food, water, shelter and dignity - such a distant dream for ordinary people. Real pre-emptive strike is to understand that wars are the end result of flawed and unjust peace.



As far as mass resistance movements are concerned, the fact is that no amount of media coverage can make up for mass strength on the ground. There is no option, really, to old-fashioned, back-breaking political mobilization.



Corporate globalization has increased the distance between those who make decisions and those who have to suffer the effects of those decisions. Forums like the WSF enable local resistance movements to reduce that distance and to link up with their counterparts in rich countries. That alliance is an important and formidable one. For example, when India's first private dam, the Maheshwar Dam, was being built, alliances between the Narmada Bachao Andolan (the NBA), the German organization Urgewald, the Berne Declaration in Switzerland, and the International Rivers Network in Berkeley worked together to push a series of international banks and corporations out of the project. This would not have been possible had there not been a rock solid resistance movement on the ground. The voice of that local movement was amplified by supporters on the global stage, embarrassing and forcing investors to withdraw.



An infinite number of similar, alliances, targeting specific projects and specific corporations would help to make another world possible. We should begin with the corporations who did business with Saddam Hussein and now profit from the devastation and occupation of Iraq.



A second hazard facing mass movements is the NGO-ization of resistance. It will be easy to twist what I'm about to say into an indictment of all NGOs. That would be a falsehood. In the murky waters of fake NGOs set up or to siphon off grant money or as tax dodges (in states like Bihar, they are given as dowry), of course there are NGOs doing valuable work. But it's important to consider the NGO phenomenon in a broader political context.



In India, for instance, the funded NGO boom began in the late 1980s and 1990s. It coincided with the opening of India's markets to neo-liberalism. At the time, the Indian state, in keeping with the requirements of structural adjustment, was withdrawing funding from rural development, agriculture, energy, transport, and public health. As the state abdicated its traditional role, NGOs moved in to work in these very areas. The difference, of course, is that the funds available to them are a minuscule fraction of the actual cut in public spending. Most large funded NGOs are financed and patronized by aid and development agencies, which are in turn funded by Western governments, the World Bank, the UN, and some multinational corporations. Though they may not be the very same agencies, they are certainly part of the same loose, political formation that oversees the neo-liberal project and demands the slash in government spending in the first place.



Why should these agencies fund NGOs? Could it be just old-fashioned missionary zeal? Guilt? It's a little more than that. NGOs give the impression that they are filling the vacuum created by a retreating state. And they are, but in a materially inconsequential way. Their real contribution is that they defuse political anger and dole out as aid or benevolence what people ought to have by right.



They alter the public psyche. They turn people into dependent victims and blunt the edges of political resistance. NGOs form a sort of buffer between the sarkar and public. Between Empire and its subjects. They have become the arbitrators, the interpreters, the facilitators.



In the long run, NGOs are accountable to their funders, not to the people they work among. They're what botanists would call an indicator species. It's almost as though the greater the devastation caused by neo-liberalism, the greater the outbreak of NGOs. Nothing illustrates this more poignantly than the phenomenon of the U.S. preparing to invade a country and simultaneously readying NGOs to go in and clean up the devastation.



In order make sure their funding is not jeopardized and that the governments of the countries they work in will allow them to function, NGOs have to present their work in a shallow framework more or less shorn of a political or historical context. At any rate, an inconvenient historical or political context.



Apolitical (and therefore, actually, extremely political) distress reports from poor countries and war zones eventually make the (dark) people of those (dark) countries seem like pathological victims. Another malnourished Indian, another starving Ethiopian, another Afghan refugee camp, another maimed Sudanese . . . in need of the white man's help. They unwittingly reinforce racist stereotypes and re-affirm the achievements, the comforts, and the compassion (the tough love) of Western civilization. They're the secular missionaries of the modern world.



Eventually - on a smaller scale but more insidiously - the capital available to NGOs plays the same role in alternative politics as the speculative capital that flows in and out of the economies of poor countries. It begins to dictate the agenda. It turns confrontation into negotiation. It depoliticizes resistance. It interferes with local peoples' movements that have traditionally been self-reliant. NGOs have funds that can employ local people who might otherwise be activists in resistance movements, but now can feel they are doing some immediate, creative good (and earning a living while they're at it). Real political resistance offers no such short cuts.



The NGO-ization of politics threatens to turn resistance into a well-mannered, reasonable, salaried, 9-to-5 job. With a few perks thrown in. Real resistance has real consequences. And no salary.



This brings us to a third danger I want to speak about tonight: the deadly nature of the actual confrontation between resistance movements and increasingly repressive states. Between public power and the agents of Empire.



Whenever civil resistance has shown the slightest signs of evolving from symbolic action into anything remotely threatening, the crack down is merciless. We've seen what happened in the demonstrations in Seattle, in Miami, in Göthenberg, in Genoa.



In the United States, you have the USA PATRIOT Act, which has become a blueprint for antiterrorism laws passed by governments across the world. Freedoms are being curbed in the name of protecting freedom. And once we surrender our freedoms, to win them back will take a revolution.



Some governments have vast experience in the business of curbing freedoms and still smelling sweet. The government of India, an old hand at the game, lights the path.



Over the years the Indian government has passed a plethora of laws that allow it to call almost anyone a terrorist, an insurgent, a militant. We have the Armed Forces Special Powers Act, the Public Security Act, the Special Areas Security Act, the Gangster Act, the Terrorist and Disruptive Areas Act (which has formally lapsed but under which people are still facing trial), and, most recently, POTA (the Prevention of Terrorism Act), the broad-spectrum antibiotic for the disease of dissent.



There are other steps that are being taken, such as court judgments that in effect curtail free speech, the right of government workers to go on strike, the right to life and livelihood. Courts have begun to micro-manage our lives in India. And criticizing the courts is a criminal offense.



But coming back to the counter-terrorism initiatives, over the last decade, the number of people who have been killed by the police and security forces runs into the tens of thousands. In the state of Andhra Pradesh (the pin-up girl of corporate globalization in India), an average of about 200 "extremists" are killed in what are called "encounters" every year. The Bombay police boast of how many "gangsters" they have killed in "shoot outs." In Kashmir, in a situation that almost amounts to war, an estimated 80,000 people have been killed since 1989. Thousands have simply "disappeared." In the northeastern provinces, the situation is similar.



In recent years, the Indian police have opened fire on unarmed people, mostly Dalit and Adivasi. Their preferred method is to kill them and then call them terrorists. India is not alone, though. We have seen similar thing happen in countries such Bolivia, Chile, and South Africa. In the era of neo-liberalism, poverty is a crime and protesting against it is more and more being defined as terrorism.



In India, POTA (the Prevention of Terrorism Act) is often called the Production of Terrorism Act. It's a versatile, hold-all law that could apply to anyone from an al-Qaeda operative to a disgruntled bus conductor. As with all anti-terrorism laws, the genius of POTA is that it can be whatever the government wants. After the 2002 state-assisted pogrom in Gujarat, in which an estimated 2,000 Muslims were savagely killed by Hindu mobs and 150,000 driven from their homes, 287 people have been accused under POTA. Of these, 286 are Muslim and one is a Sikh.



POTA allows confessions extracted in police custody to be admitted as judicial evidence. In effect, torture tends to replace investigation. The South Asia Human Rights Documentation Center reports that India has the highest number of torture and custodial deaths in the world. Government records show that there were 1,307 deaths in judicial custody in 2002 alone.



A few months ago, I was a member of a peoples' tribunal on POTA. Over a period of two days, we listened to harrowing testimonies of what is happening in our wonderful democracy. It's everything - from people being forced to drink urine, to being stripped, humiliated, given electric shocks, burned with cigarette butts, having iron rods put up their anuses, to being beaten and kicked to death.



The new government has promised to repeal POTA. I'd be surprised if that happens before similar legislation under a different name is put in place. If its not POTA it'll be MOTA or something.



When every avenue of non-violent dissent is closed down, and everyone who protests against the violation of their human rights is called a terrorist, should we really be surprised if vast parts of the country are overrun by those who believe in armed struggle and are more or less beyond the control of the state: in Kashmir, the north eastern provinces, large parts of Madhya Pradesh, Chattisgarh, Jharkhand, and Andhra Pradesh. Ordinary people in these regions are trapped between the violence of the militants and the state.



In Kashmir, the Indian army estimates that 3,000 to 4,000 militants are operating at any given time. To control them, the Indian government deploys about 500,000 soldiers. Clearly, it isn't just the militants the army seeks to control, but a whole population of humiliated, unhappy people who see the Indian army as an occupation force.



The Armed Forces Special Powers Act allows not just officers, but even junior commissioned officers and non-commissioned officers of the army, to use force and even kill any person on suspicion of disturbing public order. It was first imposed on a few districts in the state of Manipur in 1958. Today, it applies to virtually all of the north east and Kashmir. The documentation of instances of torture, disappearances, custodial deaths, rape, and summary execution by security forces is enough to turn your stomach.



In Andhra Pradesh, in India's heartland, the militant Marxist-Leninist Peoples' War Group - which for years been engaged in a violent armed struggle and has been the principal target of many of the Andhra police's fake "encounters" - held its first public meeting in years on July 28, 2004, in the town of Warangal.



It was attended by about hundreds of thousands of people. Under POTA, all of them are considered terrorists. Are they all going to be detained in some Indian equivalent of Guantánamo Bay?



The whole of the north east and the Kashmir valley is in ferment. What will the government do with these millions of people?



There is no discussion taking place in the world today that is more crucial than the debate about strategies of resistance. And the choice of strategy is not entirely in the hands of the public. It is also in the hands of sarkar.



After all, when the U.S. invades and occupies Iraq in the way it has done, with such overwhelming military force, can the resistance be expected to be a conventional military one? (Of course, even if it were conventional, it would still be called terrorist.) In a strange sense, the U.S. government's arsenal of weapons and unrivalled air and fire power makes terrorism an all-but-inescapable response. What people lack in wealth and power, they will make up with stealth and strategy.



In this restive, despairing time, if governments do not do all they can to honor nonviolent resistance, then by default they privilege those who turn to violence. No government's condemnation of terrorism is credible if it cannot show itself to be open to change by to nonviolent dissent.



But instead nonviolent resistance movements are being crushed. Any kind of mass political mobilization or organization is being bought off, or broken, or simply ignored.



Meanwhile, governments and the corporate media, and let's not forget the film industry, lavish their time, attention, technology, research, and admiration on war and terrorism. Violence has been deified.



The message this sends is disturbing and dangerous: If you seek to air a public grievance, violence is more effective than nonviolence.



As the rift between the rich and poor grows, as the need to appropriate and control the world's resources to feed the great capitalist machine becomes more urgent, the unrest will only escalate.



For those of us who are on the wrong side of Empire, the humiliation is becoming unbearable.



Each of the Iraqi children killed by the United States was our child. Each of the prisoners tortured in Abu Ghraib was our comrade. Each of their screams was ours. When they were humiliated, we were humiliated. The U.S. soldiers fighting in Iraq - mostly volunteers in a poverty draft from small towns and poor urban neighborhoods - are victims just as much as the Iraqis of the same horrendous process, which asks them to die for a victory that will never be theirs.



The mandarins of the corporate world, the CEOs, the bankers, the politicians, the judges and generals look down on us from on high and shake their heads sternly. "There's no Alternative," they say. And let slip the dogs of war.



Then, from the ruins of Afghanistan, from the rubble of Iraq and Chechnya, from the streets of occupied Palestine and the mountains of Kashmir, from the hills and plains of Colombia and the forests of Andhra Pradesh and Assam comes the chilling reply: "There's no alternative but terrorism." Terrorism. Armed struggle. Insurgency. Call it what you want.



Terrorism is vicious, ugly, and dehumanizing for its perpetrators, as well as its victims. But so is war. You could say that terrorism is the privatization of war. Terrorists are the free marketers of war. They are people who don't believe that the state has a monopoly on the legitimate use of violence.



Human society is journeying to a terrible place.



Of course, there is an alternative to terrorism. It's called justice.



It's time to recognize that no amount of nuclear weapons or full-spectrum dominance or daisy cutters or spurious governing councils and loya jirgas can buy peace at the cost of justice.



The urge for hegemony and preponderance by some will be matched with greater intensity by the longing for dignity and justice by others.



Exactly what form that battle takes, whether its beautiful or bloodthirsty, depends on us.



_________________

Independence is my happiness, and I view things as they are, without regard to place or person; my country is the world, and my religion is to do good.

I've kissed her best friend. I've reached into her best friend's pocket and fished around for keys. And I gave her best friend my number. I must be doing something totally, totally wrong... - TBSOL by Dreams

Diebrock
 


Re: Is Bush in trouble? I hope so....

Postby sam7777 » Wed Aug 25, 2004 12:44 pm

Diebrock: Great article. This bit is especially apt for Bush:
Quote:
Ordinary Americans have been manipulated into imagining they are a people under siege whose sole refuge and protector is their government. If it isn't the Communists, it's al-Qaeda. If it isn't Cuba. it's Nicaragua. As a result, this, the most powerful nation in the world - with its unmatchable arsenal of weapons, its history of having waged and sponsored endless wars, and the only nation in history to have actually used nuclear bombs - is peopled by a terrified citizenry, jumping at shadows. A people bonded to the state not by social services, or public health care, or employment guarantees, but by fear.
IMHO Bush is trying to use fear to win reelection. Fear of terrorism, fear of homosexuals, fear of immorality etc. He is running a campaign that is almost wholely negative be it against gays or Kerry. Fear and Smear indeed. Why can't BUsh tell us what he will do for the country other than not be Kerry and take rights away from gays.



Speaking of the Buch campaign, isn't it funny how folks involved with the Swift Boat Veterans for Lies keep popping up in the Bush campaign.

Bush-Cheney lawyer resigns over veterans flap

and

Bush adviser resigns after appearing in anti-Kerry ad

Why should we believe the Bush/Cheney campaign when they say they are not aligned with the Swift boat veterans?



ETA: I simply can't see Bush as "well meaning throughly incompentent boob". His administration was competent enough to push thru a war without justification and still make many people in this country believe his reasons even after they have been disproved by his own troops not finding the WMDs. Is it "well meaning" to attack gays to sure up his base?



The Republican party has officially made bigotry a part of their party platform:

GOP Adds Anti-Gay Marriage Plank to Platform



IMHO they aren't just anti-gay marriage but anti-gay, period.

_____________________

I still see dead lesbian cliches

Edited by: sam7777  at: 8/25/04 2:56 pm
sam7777
 


Re: Is Bush in trouble? I hope so....

Postby Kieli » Wed Aug 25, 2004 5:32 pm

Quote:
The Republican party has officially made bigotry a part of their party platform: GOP Adds Anti-Gay Marriage Plank to Platform

IMHO they aren't just anti-gay marriage but anti-gay, period.


Yes, pathetic isn't it? :eyebrow They can't really hold a candle on any true issues so that have to target a particular group and use them (hell it still might be the Iraqis too for all we know) to further their decidedly weak existing platform. The fact that the Log Cabin Republicans are still attempting to stick with the party is proof positive that the river of denial runneth quite deep.



ETA: Speaking of those Log Cabin Republicans, I bet they feel pretty betrayed right about now *shakes her head in disgust*: Republicans Endorse Ban on Gay Marriages


Time flies by when the Devil drives.
It's not the pace of life that concerns me, it's the sudden stop at the end.

Edited by: Kieli at: 8/25/04 6:35 pm
Kieli
 


Re: responding

Postby sam7777 » Thu Aug 26, 2004 1:08 pm

Kieli: Yeah those Log Cabin Republicans feel so "betrayed" that they are still considering endorsing Bush. I simply can't explain it.

This log cabin can get a little lonely



People have been telling them for years that the Republican party's turn to the right is anti-gay. If they really mean it about changing the party from within, they better make themselves heard at the convention rather than roll over for the right wing. That said, I know they won't. They'd rather support a party dominated by right wing groups that call them RINO (republicans in name only).



Here's a nice piece on the vietnam debate:

It Comes Down to This: Kerry Served in Vietnam, Bush Didn't
Quote:
The very mention of the Vietnam war should be a source of embarrassment to President Bush at a time when his supporters are attacking Democratic presidential nominee John Kerry -- a decorated veteran of that ill-advised conflict.



In a war where Kerry volunteered for combat duty in Vietnam, Bush skulked at home, going through acrobatics in order to avoid even serving on active duty. Bush used his pull as the son of a prominent Texas congressman to avoid the military draft by joining the Texas Air National Guard. He was jumped over hundreds of candidates on the waiting list.



Once in his safe billet, Bush compiled a National Guard record that still remains fuzzy -- and the president is obviously disinterested in clearing the fog about his performance there, despite continuing efforts by news organizations to get answers to lingering questions.



All this at a time when Bush supporters are bashing Kerry's distinguished war record. Even Bush conceded this week that Kerry "served admirably and he ought to be proud of his record."



Of course, that doesn't mean that the president would actually disavow the scurrilous attack ads that his supporters have launched against Kerry. But there has never been a shortage of gall or chutzpah in the Bush camp directed by political strategist Karl Rove.



Bush must be hurting politically to go down this dangerous road, knowing that attacking Kerry for his Vietnam service risks focusing attention on his own behavior during those years.
It's a longer article so click and read the rest for a great summary of the issues.

_____________________

I still see dead lesbian cliches

sam7777
 


Re: Dubya gets dumber and dumber

Postby Warduke » Thu Aug 26, 2004 2:24 pm

From Yahoo...



Quote:
Bush Campaign Refused to Pull Olympic Ad

       



ATHENS, Greece - President Bush's re-election campaign refused a request by the U.S. Olympic Committee on Thursday to pull a television ad that mentions the Olympics.



Bush campaign spokesman Scott Stanzel said the ads will continue through Sunday, the final day of the Athens Games.



"We are on firm legal ground to mention the Olympics to make a factual point in a political advertisement," Stanzel said.



The USOC asked the campaign to pull the ads on Thursday, committee spokesman Darryl Seibel said. The ad shows a swimmer and the flags of Iraq and Afghanistan.



"In 1972, there were 40 democracies in the world. Today, 120," an announcer says. "Freedom is spreading throughout the world like a sunrise. And this Olympics there will be two more free nations. And two fewer terrorist regimes."



Some of the players on the Iraqi Olympic soccer team have complained about the ad appearing as part of a political campaign.



The International Olympic Committee and the USOC have the authority to regulate the use of anything involving the Olympics.



"We own the rights to the Olympic name, and no one has asked us," said Gerhard Heiberg, the Norwegian IOC representative and IOC market commission leader.



Heiberg told the Norwegian news agency NTB: "We're watching, and we hope they will stop the commercial."



An act of Congress, last revised in 1999, grants the USOC exclusive rights to such terms as "Olympic," derivatives such as "Olympiad" and the five interlocking rings. It also specifically says the organization "shall be nonpolitical and may not promote the candidacy of an individual seeking public office."



Firefox: One Browser To Rule Them All.

Warduke
 


Re: Dubya gets dumber and dumber

Postby Gatito Grande » Thu Aug 26, 2004 3:49 pm

Quote:
An act of Congress, last revised in 1999, grants the USOC exclusive rights to such terms as "Olympic," derivatives such as "Olympiad" and the five interlocking rings.




Look at this factoid, and the dates. 1999: that's a Republican Congress that passed that law. And who were they afraid of? The whole "No one but the IOC/USOC may use 'Olympics'" debate came up in the context of . . . the Gay Olympics (renamed after the brouhaha, "Gay Games").



GG Can you say "hypocrisy" (or maybe smell it)? :mad Out



Switched to a larger font on the crappy old monitor: that helps, some :sigh

Gatito Grande
 


A Grieving Father....

Postby Kieli » Thu Aug 26, 2004 7:56 pm

This goddamn war has to end....reading things like this just breaks my heart:



Father of Dead GI sets Marine Van Ablaze


Time flies by when the Devil drives.
It's not the pace of life that concerns me, it's the sudden stop at the end.

Kieli
 


Re: swift boats

Postby Triscuit7 » Thu Aug 26, 2004 8:07 pm

I'm tired of it. Just thinking about it makes me weary beyond belief. What is it? That damn book "Unfit for Command" by the swift boat vets, the same ones who have been running THAT ad. I'm out of stock. Everyone is out of stock. If I had it I'd sell it (not happily but I would sell it - for me it just falls in the category of "books for stupid people").



There is no conspiracy...really. And yet, at least once a day over the past week a customer will get bent out of shape because my store has no more copies of this book (it's being reprinted by its small right-wing publisher), but we have anti Bush stuff. I hate being accused of censorship; the only thing worse is being accused of being a racist (because I'm watching that damned shoplifter).



My store's parent company is obsessing over this; today we received an email and a special message: to the effect that we should "make certain our current affairs displays are evenhanded", that we "should count the numbers of proBush books and make sure they equal the proKerry books, and do the same for the antiBush and antiKerry". And we should take care with displaying books of political humor since they're often considered offensive.



I've only seen my customers this polarized one other time (during the OJ Simpson trial). I suppose I should just hunker down and tough it out until we're finished with the election but I'm just so tired of it all.



I need to win the lottery so I can have my own bookstore....



Ciao, Melissa





******************



Do something totally irrational and let the enemy think himself to death. (Pyanfar Chanur)

Edited by: Triscuit7 at: 8/26/04 7:08 pm
Triscuit7
 


RE: The politics thread

Postby sam7777 » Fri Aug 27, 2004 2:57 pm

Kieli: These are the war victims that seldom get heard from unless something tragic like this happens. That's something that neither Bush nor Cheney's parents ever had to face and neither ever saw a shot fired in anger.



Triscuit: Yes the country is polarized and that's the legacy of the Bush administration. Splitting the country between rich and poor, gay and straight, christian and not, the world and the US etc. IMHO Bush has weakened this country by division at a time when we need to stand together and worse is sure to come in his second term. Bush SR used the Willy Horton AD and racism to win and now Bush JR is using the FMA and homophobia. That is what I hate most about the Bush policies. They promote what is worse in Americans.



Another "legacy" of the Bush administration:

More Americans Were Uninsured and Poor in 2003, Census Finds
Quote:
The ranks of the poor and those without health insurance grew in 2003 for the third straight year, the government reported on Thursday, in a sign of the lingering pain being caused by a long slump in the job markets.



Those trends, spelled out by the United States Census Bureau, signaled a clear shift in the way the 2001 recession and its aftermath have spread across the country. The economy's troubles, which first affected high-income families even more than the middle class and poor, have recently hurt families at the bottom and in the middle significantly more than those at the top.
Gays, the poor and non-christians are just 3 of the people who stand to suffer under a second Bush administration.

_____________________

I still see dead lesbian cliches

sam7777
 


When did I get this jaded?

Postby TromDeGrey » Sat Aug 28, 2004 9:33 am

Did your parents or grandparents ever tell you a story about getting to see a sitting president? I heard stories about getting to see Eisenhower, JFK, Nixon, even Jimmy Carter and Ronald Reagan. And no matter my family's political leanings, the stories were always told with a sense of excitement. Here was the leader of our country, personal feelings aside, here was someone to look up to and be excited about seeing. Maybe a once in a lifetime chance. The president visited my little town today: www.whiotv.com/news/3687487/detail.html



Not only did I not care to go see him, I was more than a little aggravated at the trouble I had getting home from the bank.



What the hell happened?



When did the man sitting in the Oval Office become little more than a circus ring leader? (Or in this case, some would argue, a clown.) When did our highest elected official become a position of scorn? Is it only this man? When was the last time you heard a child say, "I want to be the President of the United States when I grow up"? Yes, in our current political climate, I feel like I am less than a citizen because of my orientation and religion, but have I become so jaded that even a once in a lifetime opportunity fails to energize me?



Even if it's only to hold up a Kerry/Edwards sign?









My second favorite household chore is ironing. My first being hitting my head on the top bunk bed until I faint. -Erma Bombeck



TromDeGrey
 


Re: When did I get this jaded?

Postby Gatito Grande » Sat Aug 28, 2004 10:00 pm

Eh, TdeG: usually the 60s and Watergate get the blame for cynicism in these United States, but I suppose it all depends on your perspective (I barely remember the '68 election, and being disappointed that Nixon won, but it wasn't till Watergate than cynicism touched my prepubescent soul. Our car's license plate number was "880 GDN," and my mom always said it stood for "Gosh Darn Nixon"---to which my godmother admired my mom's clean mouth! :lol )



The first time I saw Mr. Smith Goes to Washington (still a fave movie), I saw DC through starry-eyed Jimmy Stewart's eyes: I was a teenager, and it made quite an impression. Why couldn't I feel all patriotic like that? But after Watergate, I just couldn't (I've since rejected nationalism all together). :sigh



Nevertheless, I still believe that one person can make a Big Difference in a democracy (even a recently half-*ssed one like the U.S. has become of late). Apathy is a luxury of the brainless and/or heartless, IMHO. :miff I may do more politicking on-line now (rather than staffing tables or handing out flyers ala my youth), but I'll show up every Election Day---to cancel out some Republican bozo's vote, if nothing else. :devilish



And I still have hope that someday, I'll vote, in a November Presidential election for a candidate I really believe in (instead of "Anybody but the b*stard s/he's running against"), and in that case, I'll turn out to see 'em in person.



GG I did so, at age 10, for George McGovern (he didn't arrive in Sacramento till after midnight! :sleepy ), and then I did so again---sort of---when I took my 85 year-old grandmother to see Gerri Ferraro, when she was running for Veep. :applause Out



On November 3, I might be all "President John Kerry" :happy (well, maybe not till the November 4 ;) ). But for now (till Dubya's dumped back in Texas where he belongs), it's Go Johnny Go! :banana

Gatito Grande
 


It gets better...

Postby TromDeGrey » Sun Aug 29, 2004 12:09 pm

I had a couple of clients in my office a few hours after the president left here and found out something rather interesting. I couldn't have gone down there with my Kerry/Edwards sign if I wanted to. The only people being allowed down on the square were registered Republicans and it was by invitaion only. I couldn't have seen MY president of MY United States (didn't vote for him, but still...) even if I'd wanted to!!! :wtf Is this a common practice? All of the people I've talked to since were aggravated by not being able to see and hear the president speak (not that he said much relevant to us locally). I realize there are security measures to be taken and they don't want their rallies to look bad on CNN, but that smacks a bit too much of controlling the media for me. You have the right to protest, but only if Dubya can't see or hear you. No media outlet carried this fact, so I'm assuming this is the way these things usually go? Uh-oh, there I go ASSuming in an election year... Xander for President!:shock







My second favorite household chore is ironing. My first being hitting my head on the top bunk bed until I faint. -Erma Bombeck



TromDeGrey
 


Re: It gets better...

Postby Gatito Grande » Sun Aug 29, 2004 1:40 pm

Oh no, this is a Dubya-invention (only "The Chosen" may see God's Annointed One---or presumably The Dickster either): I heard about it several weeks ago on NPR. :mad



GG I'd love to say I was all shocked-and-appalled (well, I was appalled), but really, nothing the Commanding *sshole-in-Chief does shocks me anymore. :miff Just one more reason to unelect him (for keeps this time), while we still can! :angry U.S. 2004 = Germany 1934? (Ooops, I'm going off-the-Dems-message :rolleyes ) Out



I seriously hope no one here is even considering voting for Nader* (OR staying home): the stakes are too damn high! :rage



*For whom I voted in 1996 (when BillC had both Pennsylvania and the U.S. in the bag)

Gatito Grande
 


fuck the RNC

Postby maudmac » Sun Aug 29, 2004 2:49 pm

Okay, after three and half hours, I had to quit watching all those protesters walking by Madison Square Garden. That's a lot of people. Damn. :eek



Praise be for C-SPAN.



I got a little verklempt over the whole thing, because it was so nice to see such a huge outpouring of dissent. I felt a bit of pride puffing itself up inside my chest and that was a nice feeling. Nice to see everyone - protesters and police - behaving themselves, too.



Some great signs. I think my favorite was the "Asses of Evil" one. :lol (Bush and Cheney, of course.)



That policy the administration has to only let Republicans see the president speak is ridiculous. It's like those "free speech zones." Hello! The entire nation, coast to coast, border to border, it's all a free speech zone. It's all indicative of how polarized we all are now. There's a hardcore Us vs. Them vibe about the US these days. And I don't think of the shrub as my president any more than he thinks of me as one of his constituents. Well, that's what we get when our government allows for people who aren't elected to nonetheless assume office.



Hey, hey, ho, ho, the Electoral College has got to go.



A lot of my friends voted for Nader last time around and most of them are sorry about that and resolved to vote for Kerry. As much as I want us all to have more than two options, I'm also in agreement that the stakes are waaaaay too high right now. As far as I'm concerned, a vote for Nader is a vote for Bush. I have no problem at all spouting off a great big ol' FUCK NADER because I think it's irresponsible for him to be running at all. Those protesters in NYC with the "Bush + Kerry = War / Nader + Camejo = Peace" signs...are they delusional? Nader is not going to win this election. It's sad, but true, that this election comes down to the lesser of two evils - two evils. There is no choice other than Bush or Kerry.



I'm not exactly pro-Kerry myself. He was pretty far down on my list of preferred Democratic nominees. But I am very "anybody but Bush." That man's going to bring this nation (and who knows how many others) to its knees if he gets four more years to spew his stupidity and hatred.


i wasn't sniffing your spicy brains

maudmac
 


How can you be moderate and anti-gay?

Postby sam7777 » Sun Aug 29, 2004 5:36 pm

'Moderate' Face of Republican National Convention Can't Hide the Truth: Bush Administration 'the most anti-gay in history of gay rights movement,' says National Gay and Lesbian Task Force
Quote:
With Republicans planning to present a moderate and compassionate face during the Republican National Convention, the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force today released a summary of the Bush Administration's record on lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) issues, calling the Bush-Cheney team "the most anti-gay administration in the history of the gay rights movement." The Task Force, the oldest national gay rights organization in the U.S., issued three reports on presidential candidates in 2000 and several reports on the Democratic and Republican candidates this election cycle.



"The Bush-Cheney Administration actively opposes every major policy initiative we care about - a federal nondiscrimination law, a hate crimes law, family protections, AIDS prevention, you name it," said Matt Foreman, the Task Force's Executive Director. "Ideology and religious zeal have replaced science as the driving force within the federal health care and research bureaucracy. And worst of all, President Bush has joined forces with the anti-gay industry, who scapegoat gay and lesbian families to promote their broader agenda of intolerance. This, from our perspective, is the true face of George W. Bush's presidency."


sam7777
 

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