The Trans Thread

[Tempest Duer]

*blink blink* I'll just head over to the remembrance thread then...

I believe in the madness called "now."

[sprhrgrl]

So I'm dating a genderqueer kid, Cubbie. I'm bringing them home for Christmas. I have two little cousins - they're six and nine years old. Any suggestions as to how I should deal with pronouns for Cubbie with them? I'm not out to the family as genderqueer yet, so I haven't had to play with this issue thus far.

Sweetie, I'm a fag. I been there. - Tara (Dead Things shooting script)

A muscle cramp? in your. . . pants? - Tara (Older & Far Away)

I can scramble an egg, I won't eat it but I can scramble it. - Amber

Edited by: sprhrgrl  at: 12/1/03 12:01 am

[urnofosiris]

How does Cubbie feel about it? Would Cubbie be ok about being out to your family and if so, how would Cubbie like to be addressed? What do you say when talking about Cubbie to someone that you are out to (do you always use them?)? If all else fails you could avoid pronouns by just using Cubbie's name, but that could get a little odd (as illustrated in this post) if instead of using he/she/something else you keep saying Cubbie, heh.

The last mosquito that bit me had to check into the Betty Ford Clinic.

--Patsy Stone

Edited by: DrG at: 12/1/03 8:10 am

[Tempest Duer]

Well, if you really want things to be easy, go with the pronoun that fits the Cubster's biological sex, assuming they have no major issues with that. Otherwise, I can't help ya.

Willow: Hey Buff. One more thing. Buffy: Yeah? Willow: I’m gay. Buffy: Okay, Will. Xander owes me ten bucks.

~Remember to Breathe by Yellow Cray

[sprhrgrl]

I think we're going to going to go with non-birth-sex, actually. . . Overcompensation is a big thing in our lives, lately. . . Thank you all for your advice. . . It's a bigger issue for me, really, than for Cubbie. It's about respect, really. Cubbie's willing to let it slide, but I very much want my family to show respect if possible. . .

Sweetie, I'm a fag. I been there. - Tara (Dead Things shooting script)

A muscle cramp? in your. . . pants? - Tara (Older & Far Away)

I can scramble an egg, I won't eat it but I can scramble it. - Amber

[redleia]

I can understand the trepidation.I am a transgendered female who makes no effort to look female.I am very comfortable with being a women in a man's body.My friends sometimes get afraid to use feminine terms to refer to me in public.Everybody who sees an effeminate gal like me assumes I am gay.I am but I am a lesbian not a gay male.A guy beat me up because my gal pal Tammy called me girl friend.Said no gays were allowed in his bar.They are afraid I am going to get hurt again.I tell them to feel free to call me girl,girlfriend,b**ch..whatever.I refuse to live my life afraid of idiots who are incapable of understanding me.



Call Cubbie what you are both comfortable with and let the family call her/him what they are comfortable with.



I just came out as transgendered a year ago and am not up on terminology.What is gender queer?



Red/Leia Fan

[sprhrgrl]

We gave up. Cubbie's going with sex pronouns for now, although my "they"ing is certainly confusing the family. That'll suffice until anyone asks, I guess.



Genderqueer is for me someone who doesn't fall within any of the socially prescribed gender norms. I am not a man, I am not a woman. . . I fall somewhere in between, and the location of that somewhere can vary depending on the day hour or second. The is how I define genderqueer - the label can be used to mean a variety of things, depending on the person.



Welcome, redleia! ::cheek kiss::

Sweetie, I'm a fag. I been there. - Tara (Dead Things shooting script)

A muscle cramp? in your. . . pants? - Tara (Older & Far Away)

I can scramble an egg, I won't eat it but I can scramble it. - Amber

[Tempest Duer]

Amen to that, Puck. Oh, and nice avatar.

Willow: Hey Buff. One more thing. Buffy: Yeah? Willow: I’m gay. Buffy: Okay, Will. Xander owes me ten bucks.

~Remember to Breathe by Yellow Crayon

[Warduke]

Read this over at Yahoo...

Quote:

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Transgendered Community Remembers Murder

       

Sat Dec 27, 6:18 PM ET



By TARA GODVIN, Associated Press Writer



FALLS CITY, Neb. - Ten years ago, a handsome, brown-haired 21-year-old named Brandon Teena was raped and later murdered by two men after they discovered he wasn't born a man.



The New Year's Eve tragedy in rural southeastern Nebraska inspired the award-winning 1999 film, "Boys Don't Cry." It also touched off a movement in the transgendered community.



In the days after Teena was killed, a new generation of activists banded together to demand greater civil rights protections. Ten years later, 65 municipalities and states have hate crime laws that specifically include transgendered people, according to the Transgender Law Policy Institute. California became the fourth state to adopt such a law earlier this year.



Big corporations, such as Hewlett-Packard and Nike, have adopted similar rules. And 145 members of Congress have banned such discrimination from their offices, said Riki Wilchins, executive director of the Washington-based Gender Public Advocacy Coalition.



"How many times do you get to see a giant sea change like this in people's perceptions? But you look at Congress, corporate America, and cities and states ... and you see this enormous change in how people are looking at gender as a civil rights issue," Wilchins said.



Nebraska passed a hate-crime law in 1997, but it did not refer specifically to transgendered people. It was found unconstitutional after a 2000 U.S. Supreme Court ruling in another case involving sentencing provisions.



One problem for the transgendered community — which encompasses a range of identities including cross-dressers and transsexuals — is that allies have been hard to come by.



Although they were at the forefront of New York City's 1969 Stonewall Riots, which led to the gay rights movement, the relationship between the transgendered and gay communities hasn't always been easy.



"For a long time, the gay movement was like, 'Well, that's an interesting problem, but it's not our problem. You folks are too weird. We don't want to talk to you.'" said Paisley Currah, executive director of the Center for Lesbian and Gay Studies at Brooklyn College in New York.



Teena's story helped reveal the two groups' common ground, Currah said.



The national attention given to Teena's murder also helped introduce the idea of being transgendered to mainstream America, said Shannon Minter, a board member of the Transgender Law and Policy Institute in New York.



"People are just much less freaked out about the concept, and see us more as human beings with partners, families, children," said Minter, who is transgendered.



Many activists say Teena's murder attracted so much attention because of its brutality and the failure of law enforcement to protect Teena.



John Lotter and Marvin Nissen were convicted of murdering Teena, who had dated a female friend of the two men. They also killed Lisa Lambert, 24, and Philip DeVine, 22, who had witnessed Teena's death in a farmhouse.



A week before the killing, Teena had told the local sheriff the men had raped him, but the sheriff took no action.



In a scathing court opinion in 2001, Nebraska Supreme Court Chief Justice John Hendry said former Richardson County Sheriff Charles Laux showed indifference by referring to Teena as "it" and not immediately arresting the suspects.



Laux, reached by telephone at his home, decline to comment.



A judge initially awarded Teena's mother, Joann Brandon, $17,360 in damages, saying that Teena's own lifestyle was partly responsible for his death. The state Supreme Court ordered him to reconsider, and he later awarded Brandon $98,223.



Brandon's lawyer, Herb Friedman, said she no longer wanted to talk about case.



Lotter is now on Nebraska's death row. Nissen was sentenced to life in prison.



Though much has improved for the transgendered community in the last 10 years, there is still a long way to go, Minter said.



In the past year alone, Remembering Our Dead, an online memorial that tracks bias killing of transgendered people around the world, recorded 17 deaths in the United States.



The few people in Falls City willing to talk about the case voiced a desire to move on and frustration at its cost to the county.



"Every town's got some weird people," said resident Mary Symonds.



About 25 miles from Falls City in the tiny town of Humboldt, the small farmhouse where Teena, Lambert and DeVine were killed attracts a regular stream of sightseers.



"They just drive and stare and I guess get a thrill out of that," said Dagmar Jansen, who moved into the house about two years ago with her family.



"It's horrible. It probably comes from prejudice and people not being open-minded." Jansen said. "I think by the year 2003 people should be able to live for who they are and not for what people think they should be."

---

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Firebird: One Browser To Rule Them All.

[urnofosiris]

Thanks for posting that Brian. He would have been my age now. It's scary to think there are people out there who might have done the same to me if I had been in the wrong place at the wrong time. Anyone can become victim of a crime, not a pleasant thought, but the odds go up if you have the 'wrong' skin color, sexual preference or gender. If Brandon had not been transgendered he probably would have been alive today, and with him many, mainly transgendered women. The amount of money his mother got an insult if you compare it to the shitload of money you can get if you are stupid enough to spill hot McDonalds coffee over yourself while you are driving.

Quote:

---

In the days after Teena was killed, a new generation of activists banded together to demand greater civil rights protections. Ten years later, 65 municipalities and states have hate crime laws that specifically include transgendered people, according to the Transgender Law Policy Institute. California became the fourth state to adopt such a law earlier this year.

---

Can someone explain this a bit to me? I don't even really know what the Dutch law says when it comes to this, let alone the US law. I know that you can't go around raping and killing people, but I don't need a law to tell me that. What exactly does a hate crime law mean? I mean if you rape and kill someone you should go to jail, preferably forever. Why this law? Surely no one can/could use the fact that the victim is black or a woman or gay or transgendered as a reason to commit the crime or as a defense? Do people get punished more severely if they are convicted of a hate crime as opposed to a 'random' crime? No criticism intended, I am just curious what this law is about and what the thoughts behind it are.

Edited by: DrG at: 12/28/03 7:30 am

[redleia]

As a victim of a bias crime I hate hate crime legislation.



Hate crime legislation tacks on an extra punishment if the jury finds that a person's crime was motivated by bias.So if the guys who beat me up would have done it to get my wallet and not because I am effeminate they would have deserve to serve less time? I believe this is in violation of the equal protection given under the constitution.At the time I was beaten Georgia did not have a hate crimes law.If they did I would have lobbied against my attackers being sentenced under it.Just give them the penalty for Assault and battery.



Teena was a tragedy.I would never see it happen again but instead of giving us special protection,give us equal protection.Whether or not you agree with the death penalty they can only execute the guy on death row for Teena's murder once.The problem is that too many time in bias crimes the police take an attitude the victim got what they deserved and due to sloppy police work,the crime goes unpunished or the criminals get a hand slap.Hate crime bills will not change that.If you want to pass a bill pass a bill outlawing the gay panic defense and then when the scum bags are convicted sentence them as you would anyone else.Not for attacking a gay or trans person but for attacking a human being.



I want everybody who commits a violent crime to get equal punishment.I don't care what motivates them.You punish behavior not thought.If the guys who beat me up had done it for my wallet I would be no less trashed than I was because they thought I was gay.



Instead of hate crime law we need judges who are going to say no to this gay panic defense(his being gay made me feel threatened so I beat him half to death) and sentence crimes against us the same way they would against anybody else. No more or less.



Red Leia

[Gatito Grande]

Well, I'd like to say a word in defense of hate crimes laws. (Not for a minute denying the need for equal protection from a prejudiced legal system]



The thing about hate crimes laws is, they ramp up the penalty in *comparatively* less serious breaches of the law. Think about it this way: everybody hates vandalism, right? But getting random things spray-painted on your house (even if swear words) is NOT the same thing as "Get out, Nigger!" if you're black, or "Die, faggot!" if you're gay. The first is definitely annoying, while the latter is downright threatening. Hence, the more serious penalties.



GG I think it makes sense. YMMV. Out



Welcome again, redleia!



And hang in there, sprhrgrl: love is love, no matter the pronoun.

[xita]

I agree, it's def not the same kind of crime. If you beat me up cause I pissed you off, that's certainly different than beating me up for no reason. Besides hate crimes certainly suggest a pattern, do it once and you've likely done it before or will do it again.

- - - - - - - - - - -
"Hard work often pays off after time but laziness always pays off now!"

[redleia]

So if two people get beat up: one becuase a thug wants his wallet the other becuase he is perceived as gay(like me) and the first attacker gets 4 years and the second gets 9 becuase of hate crime laws,you don't have a problem with that.To me that is saying to the victim of the first crime your suffering is less important becuase you are not a member of a protected group.





Also punishing the thought behind a crime is a slippery slope.A person's thoughts are protected under the 1st ammendment.By tacking on an extra penalty for hate crimes you are punishing thought,not action.That should be Anethema to a free society.Punishing criminal action is fine but what scares me is hate crime laws punishes thought.



Do we want to live in a society where thought,no matter how vile,is punished.



I want a world where Teena and Matt are a painful reminder of an outdated way of thinking,I do not believe hate crime laws are the way to acheive that.



Red Leia

[urnofosiris]

I don't see it as a punishment for the thought itself, it is still a punishment for the action. No law can stop a person from being homophobic, but maybe that law will somehow prevent a few people from acting on those thoughts. Maybe I watched too many cop shows, but doesn't a cop killer get punished more severely as well? Like a mandatory life sentence? If so, I don't think such a law, like a hate crime law, is per definition wrong or unfair, it isn't like saying a police officer or a gay person is better than Mr or Mrs such and such who happen to be neither, but some groups are more at risk for coming to harm simply because of who they are or what they do and that makes me think added protection is justified. I don't know the numbers, but I'll guess an openly gay person runs a greater risk of getting beaten up than a random straight person, as a gay person you run the regular risk plus the added risk for being gay. I am not sure whether a hate crime law really helps, I don't know, does anyone know any stats on this? Has violence against groups included in this law decreased since these laws exist? If so, that would be a big point in it's favor. Anyway, seeing as such a law does exist and as long as it does, it seems there can be no question that violence against transgendered people should be included as a no no. Maybe if it had been when Brandon was alive, that sheriff would have acted differently, not out of the goodness of his heart, but because there was one extra law telling him to, because apparently the fact that rape is illegal no matter who or why was not incentive enough for him to do his job.

Edited by: DrG at: 12/29/03 12:11 pm

[redleia]

I think what we need to do is enforce the laws on the books and nail people like the sheriff in Teena's case to the wall when they, due to their bigoted worldview,fail to do their job.If I were the Governor I would have the sheriff up on charges for violating Teena's civil rights .I would do the same thing to a sheriff who failed to protect a battered women because the batterer is his buddy.



What i have not seen is recrimination for "peace officers" who fail to do their job because of the victims orientation or gender identity.



I want to see us protected,I don't know maybe hate crime laws are the way to do it.As someone who studies law and the constitution as a hobby they just make me a bit uncomfortable.



You bring up a good point with the cop killer laws.They are necessary.They make a special group of victim but without the

laws we would no doubt have more cop killings.



I don't know.Ya'll have given me much to think about.This has been a informative topic.I am starting to think hate crime laws are a necessary evil.



Tabby

[Gatito Grande]

. . . and ironically, I hate "cop killer" or "child killer" laws.



When it comes to physical violence, I think that it's all obscene. No human being is more or less deserving of being attacked, raped, or killed. I oppose the death penalty in all circumstances (for moral reasons), but whatever the most serious penalty is, should be applied in the case of first-degree murder, regardless of who the victim is.



Again, though, I return to the realm of *less serious* crimes, for where hate crimes laws can (and I believe, should) be applied. If someone (I don't know) shouts "Hey *sshole!" at me, well, they're rude, but that's they're opinion (truthfully, GG has *occasionally* been known to be an *sshole ).* But if someone shouts "Hey, Lesbo!" at me (not entirely accurate, but how I'm likely seen), then I feel exposed as part of a traditionally-hated/discriminated/assaulted class. It's not for anything I did (like being an *sshole), but just for who I am (or perceived to be) that I'm being singled out. That's qualitatively *different*, and should be treated as such.



GG Once again making the "Try not to be an *sshole" New Year's Resolution! Out



*Note the phrase "someone (I don't know)": while I'd just as soon not have someone I *do* know shout "Hey Lesbo!" (or "*sshole!" for that matter) at me, there is something to be said for "in the family" as opposed to outside it (Ala "nigga" among some black people, which is verboten for everyone who's not.) Maybe this is a case of penalizing thought (for the stranger, as opposed to someone "in the family"), but doesn't the law do that all the time? Take libel or slander, for example. Either of those laws require the perpetrator to *know their accusation is false* for it to apply. If they believe the accusation to be true (that is, they *intend truth*, in the way that the "in the family" person *intends in-group friendliness*) then the law does not penalize them.

[redleia]

QUOTE:But if someone shouts "Hey, Lesbo!" at me (not entirely accurate, but how I'm likely seen), then I feel exposed as part of a traditionally-hated/discriminated/assaulted class. It's not for anything I did (like being an *asshole), but just for who I am (or perceived to be) that I'm being singled out. That's qualitatively *different*, and should be treated as such.



Please tell me you are not suggesting hate speech laws.Hate speech is just that:speech.That is why I am not for punishing bigoted graffiti more than regular vulgar graffiti.Punish the destruction of private property not the speech.I will defend the right of Fred Phelps to say God wants all gays dead with the same fervor I support my trans and gay brothers and sisters right to speak out against our persecution.



Your comparison to libel/slander laws rings false to me.



All fags should be dead.Vile but an opinion and therefore protected.



Red Leia slept with her pastor's wife when you know it to be false.Slander and punishable.The law punishes intent not thought.Did you intend to spread false information that is harmful.



Now if you said something like In my opinion Red Leia is the kind of person who would sleep with her pastor's wife.That is no less vile but protected.



Like I said maybe Hate crime laws are a necessary evil but I will always view them like that.



On another note my mom did my laundry and found that I wear a nightie to bed.She folded my clothes and put a note on top.Son or Daughter I will always love you Ronkins.



Red Leia

[Tempest Duer]

GG, I don't think you've broken your resolution yet. Sometimes people are just a little... okay, really touchy.

Willow: Hey Buff. One more thing. Buffy: Yeah? Willow: I’m gay. Buffy: Okay, Will. Xander owes me ten bucks.

~Remember to Breathe by Yellow Crayon

[Gatito Grande]

"Please tell me you are not suggesting hate speech laws."



Depends on the context, redleia. I'm not a lawyer, and I may get this wrong, but here's what I understand:



"All fags should be dead." If this were said, for example, at my workplace (my *theoretical* workplace, as GG is still unemployed), it would be "establishing a climate of harassment."



What am I saying?! Of course we fags still aren't protected. Let's try something else. Let's say I wasn't a WASP. Let's say I'm Jewish:



"All Jews should be dead." If *this* were said at my theoretical workplace, it would be "establishing a climate of harassment." If my employer didn't do something about it (like fire that anti-Semitic *sshole), then I could sue under Federal Civil Rights Laws.



Similarly, many colleges and universities have hate speech codes, and I for one think they're OK. It's the function of a college/university to provide an atmosphere where everyone can learn, and having "all fags should be dead" said in my face would definitely impede that.



Of course, redleia, we may have arrived at a basic philosophical difference between you and me. To understand where I'm coming from, I recommend Stanley Fish's essay "There's No Such Thing as Free Speech, and It's a Good Thing, Too" (as found in the book Debating P.C., ed. Paul Berman, and probably other places as well). Here's a relevant quote:

Quote:

---

Speech, in short, is never and could not be an independent value, but is always asserted against a background of some assumed conception of the good to which it must yield in the event of conflict. When the pinch comes (and sooner or later it will always come) and the institution (be it church, state, or university) is confronted by behavior subversive of its core rationale, it will respond by declaring "of course we mean not tolerated ______, that we extirpate" [Fish is quoting John Milton]; not because an exception to a general freedom has suddenly and contradictorily been announced but because the freedom has never been general and has always been understood against the background of an originary exclusion that gives it meaning.

---

This is what I think Fish means by "originary exclusion": for example-



***National Security Agency scanning the internet, NOTE THE FOLLOWING IS ONLY STATED AS A (RHETORICAL) EXAMPLE!***



-one could not say "I am going to kill the President of the United States" and claim "Freedom of Speech" under the First Amendment, because it is the President of the U.S. that is the Chief Executive of the government that established the First Amendment in the first place. Get it?



Speech is always a political negotiation, and in *my* version of that negotiation, no one can shout "Hey Lesbo!" at me, w/o my seeking some kind of retaliation (legal or otherwise) for the sense of my freedom being impinged by this kind of harassment. Of couse GG doesn't have very much clout in this regard, but various LGBT groups are working on this, and I say more power to 'em!



GG Still kinda nervous about the NSA knocking on---busting down?---my door. I just wanna unelect Dubya, not physically hurt the guy! I swear! Out

[redleia]

Let me ask you this.Let us say instead of Die Lesbo(or trans fag..etc)a fellow employee is talking in lunchroom to another employee and you over hear them say"I think all homosexuals are going to hell".Do you think a person should lose their job over that.I don't.There is a difference between making a slur and stating an opinion that is offensive.



You are right we have different philosophies.I believe with a few exceptions(yelling fire in a crowded theater when there is no fire)all speech must be protected.The speech(as well as thought) must be protected,how you employ the speech (an action)is free game for legal action.



I want a world free from anti-gay and trans violence but not at the cost of restricting thought and speech.



I do not agree with the words men like Fred Phelps say.If I was at Matthews or Teena's Memorials I probably would have decked him but I will defend their right to spew their vile hate.Censoring anything is the first step in censoring everything.I don't defend the right to hate speech or thought because I like it.It is a necessary evil if we are to maintain a free society.



The way to counter hate speech is with more speech.Use the freedom of speech that protects them against them.



When Fred Phelps came tp protest my church in Atlanta during the Southern Baptist convention that was held there several years ago,because we brought food and ran errands for people with aids,I counter protested with a sign that Said:"Fred Phelps:You are blinded by hate....

" my friend held a sign that said "..but God still loves you too.





One time I was at a Halloween blast at a club.I was dressed as Xena.A Prep came up to me and said"I did not know fags were allowed in this place.I said to him."I said to him"You know I am a fag.Thank you for noticing,that is the kindest thing anyone has ever said to me.Thank you."He walked away with a blank look on his face.I could have got a bouncer on him for trying to start something,but that would have only confirmed his bias.Instead I took the Bible's advice.A soft answer turns away wrath.



In parting.I respect all those who don't see eye to eye with me on this subject.We want the same thing:No more Matthews or Tina's.We just don't see eye to eye in how best to go about it.The baser side of me wants to beat the sheriff in Teena's case senseless.That is not the way.Counter words and thoughts of hate with words of love.This is a better than suppression or thought policing.I enjoy spirited,civil debate.



Red Leia

[urnofosiris]

Quote:

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All fags should be dead.Vile but an opinion and therefore protected.

---

Depends on who is saying it. I makes a bit of a difference if some anonymous moron starts shouting in the middle of a random street that "all gays, or all Jews much die. Kill them for me" or whether it is an important religious or secular leader with a strong (fanatical) following who might just do exactly as their leader says. One could say that leader is only expressing his opinion, but when that opinion is likely to lead to direct harm of another human being then no, not good, he or she should be held accountable for that. I don't know where you should draw the line as to who can say exactly what where and when and who not, I don't think there is a rule that covers every possible scenario, nothing is black and white, it is usually a lot easier to see when the line gets crossed.



To use an extreme example: Hitler, I don't know whether he personally killed even one Jew during WWII, but his words, his opinions did it for him. He is no less guilty than the minions that actually did the killing for him. He knew the effect his words, his ideology, was having, even if he never gave a direct order to kill anyone (which he did, it's just for argument's sake), he was still fully and completely accountable and utterly deserving of punishment. It is not as easy as everyone should be allowed to say whatever they think or feel where ever and whenever they feel like it. That does not make a society more safe or free than a society that does hold those accountable for the actions their words inspire. If other people have to live in fear because of it, I don't see how a society can call itself free.



Spoken words are different from thoughts, no law could ever govern a person's thoughts, unless maybe if those who should enforce that law become mind readers. People can spend their whole life mentally wishing hell and damnation on gay people, but when they start spewing that crap out loud and that crap leads to some other asshole physically harming someone it is not ok. Another example, what about a parent continuously telling their child he or she is worthless, or whatever other horrible thing you can think of. That may be that parent's opinion, but can he/she be allowed to just go ahead and keep expressing that opinion or can such a parent be stopped? Simply put, to me the freedom of speech does not take precedence over another person's well being (and I don't mean to say that if I get my feelings hurt because someone calls me a weird transsexual freak, that that is reason to punish such a person by law, I mean on a grander scale and a greater hurt). I am happy that in my country certain influential people/extremists are held accountable for their public hate inspiring opinions. I know it is not easy, and I am fully aware that a government needs to be really really careful before stepping in, but sometimes it really is necessary.

Quote:

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That is not the way.Counter words and thoughts of hate with words of love.This is a better than suppression or thought policing.I enjoy spirited,civil debate.

---

I wish that would be enough, I really do.



Edited for the umpteenth time: I promise to stop editing now. It's just I don't usually use so many words to say something so little and now I remember why I don't. I make typos. Lots of them.

Edited by: DrG at: 12/30/03 6:51 pm

[Tempest Duer]

Spirited debate is a wonderful thing to watch. I'm glad you all are so opinionated, so I don't have to be. But really, this is better than my soaps.

Willow: Hey Buff. One more thing. Buffy: Yeah? Willow: I’m gay. Buffy: Okay, Will. Xander owes me ten bucks.

~Remember to Breathe by Yellow Crayon

[Gatito Grande]

Quote:

---

Let me ask you this.Let us say instead of Die Lesbo(or trans fag..etc)a fellow employee is talking in lunchroom to another employee and you over hear them say"I think all homosexuals are going to hell".Do you think a person should lose their job over that.

---

Probably not.



There are a couple of key phrases in your hypothesis: "overhear" and "going to hell." The second merely reflects a theological opinion, one which I am free to reject. It doesn't threaten my existence in the Here n' Now. However, if the person told me that *I'm* going to hell---if it were in my face, loudly and repeatedly---then that *might* impede my ability to do my job. The fact that you say that I "overhear" it says that it is not in my face. Ergo, it is not detrimental to the work environment.



GG I might keep an eye on said employee though: to see if they were encouraging their co-workers to become actively homophobic against lil' ol' Out Me. Out

[willowrulz4ever]

I have a question.I am TG and attracted to both sexes.



I came out to my sister in law.She wants to know if being a female in a males body means that for me to be attracted to males is normal and liking the ladies makes me bi.



Tash has been really understanding and I would like to have an answer for her but I don't.



i just know it is hw I am.



Tabby

[urnofosiris]

Well first of all I´d say that had you been a man in male body and attracted to other men then that would be normal too. So yeah, you being attracted to men is normal whether you´re male or female, though many people still disagree with that view and would claim being attracted to the same gender is ´unnatural´ or ´abnormal´, which is crap, but discussing that would be preaching to the choir. As for whether you´re bi or not, I think ultimately only you can answer that. It´s not easy, you could ask 10 different people and get 10 different answers. Out of curiosity, are you equally attracted to men and women?

[willowrulz4ever]

There has only been two.One was my therapist.The other was a cowrker.We had a brief relationship and some great sex.



I mostly prefer girls bu if I meet a guy i like I am not above starting something.



Tabby

[Gatito Grande]

The intersection between sexuality and (trans)gender: now there's a subject ripe for discussion! (At least to me)



I've never forgotten this woman writer I read in, oh, the early 90s. The woman was a big David Lee Roth fan (I know: takes all kinds, huh? ). Anyway, she wrote this line that has always stayed with me: "I didn't know if I wanted to do him, or be him."



God Almighty, can I relate! (Just not about DLR )



When I think about my sexuality these days, I would say that I'm mostly just into women (I've ID'd as bi for almost 20 years now). And yet, I still have a fascination w/ looking at (good-looking) men. Is that just my gender dysphoria at work---that I'm envying their bodies? Or what?



OK, gonna put it out there: this might be TMI about GG in general, and GG's past relationship w/ hir male partner (the &%$#@!!! Ex) specifically, so if "the male anatomy" makes ya queezy, ya might wanna skip the rest of this post.



Let's talk penis. I was terribly fond of my ex's equipment, but in a strangely, um, detached sort of way. For one, I didn't really associate w/ him. I swear to God, even when our relationship was going well, I thought of it as "Our Penis." Moreover, I didn't really relate to it that much in a sexual way . . . at least not in an intercourse kind of way. Oh, intercourse was OK: it could even be enjoyable. But I didn't really associate *that* experience as, uh, "penile" if you know what I mean. No, what I really loved about the ex's wanger, was this sense of it as a toy . . . and maybe as kind of a joke (they really are pretty ridiculous-looking). Though neither of us really said much about this at the time, their was clearly a high degree of envy in my attitudes and behavior (but the ex really didn't appreciate my rather impish behavior around him, if he just "happened to be" walking around w/ his pants off: I might just reach out and give it---FWIW, he didn't have a "name" for it---a playful squeeze. I really think that he believed that there should be an innate "reverence" around it: something else about him I came really dislike).



So do I just have a case of (giving Freud a happy) penis envy? Conversely---to make Freud less happy---is that just a sign that I'm not really female? Or do I have some sexual attractions to Mister Wanger that, for whatever reason, I don't feel like facing right now? (Or do I have a "Can Do or Can Be, but Not Both" attitude, re: males---because of internal homophobia, that I couldn't be a gay---or rather, bi---male?)



GG And why the f*ck, as I get older, do I seem to get more and more confused about all this stuff? Out

[willowrulz4ever]

I am woman.That I know.The rest I really don't think of much.It is just when I ask someone who is trying to understand I like to have a half way plausible sounding answer.



this is probaly going to sound weird,but a lot of times i wished I coud change plumbing with my ex.She was going on and on how much easier guys had it than gals with their plumbing and I always hated the plumbing God gave me at birth.



When I first asked dad why my foster sister coud wear pretty dresses and I couldn't and he explained the difference between boys and girls I asked himwhycan't I just get what she has.I got slapped for being smart but I wasn't.I really wantedto know if I was getting in trouble for playing with dolls and could not wear pretty dresses cuase I had a penis instead of a vagina.Why couldn't I just get a vagina.



now I am seeing a therapist and we are talking about different options.



tabby

[Tempest Duer]

Hi Willowrulz4ever... didn't know you were trans too... trade you equipment any time.

Willow: Hey Buff. One more thing. Buffy: Yeah? Willow: I’m gay. Buffy: Okay, Will. Xander owes me ten bucks.

~Remember to Breathe by Yellow Crayon