The Politics Thread - Read the First Post

[justin]

I think for me the point of all this isn't "republicans are committing electoral fraud, so republicans are evil" or "democrats are committing electoral fraud, so democrats are evil" but, basically, how can America hold itself up to the world as being the pinnacle of freedom and democracy when this sort of rubbish is going on?



It seems to me that the words "land of the free and home of the brave" don't mean much any more.

A good story should provoke discussion, debate, argument...and the occasional bar fight. -JMS

[Gatito Grande]

justin, while I get your point, seeing a moral equivalency between Democrats and Republicans (generally-speaking: there a few decent Republicans left, and more than a few *sshole Democrats) is not helpful.



Democrats would "hold [the USA] up to the world" by trying to be, at our best "a model [not "pinnacle"] of freedom and democracy."



GG Whereas Republicans declare that the U.S. is the pinnacle . . . only by holding everybody else down. Just a little bit different, wouldn't you agree? Out

[skittles]

Ok, this is scary. I've heard little bits, but now I'm really worried.



Here is the beginning of an article from the NYTimes Magazine section: Without a Doubt by Ron Suskind. It talks about GWB's faith. It is really scary reading. Here is the first part of the article:

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Bruce Bartlett, a domestic policy adviser to Ronald Reagan and a treasury official for the first President Bush, told me recently that ''if Bush wins, there will be a civil war in the Republican Party starting on Nov. 3.'' The nature of that conflict, as Bartlett sees it? Essentially, the same as the one raging across much of the world: a battle between modernists and fundamentalists, pragmatists and true believers, reason and religion.



''Just in the past few months,'' Bartlett said, ''I think a light has gone off for people who've spent time up close to Bush: that this instinct he's always talking about is this sort of weird, Messianic idea of what he thinks God has told him to do.'' Bartlett, a 53-year-old columnist and self-described libertarian Republican who has lately been a champion for traditional Republicans concerned about Bush's governance, went on to say: ''This is why George W. Bush is so clear-eyed about Al Qaeda and the Islamic fundamentalist enemy. He believes you have to kill them all. They can't be persuaded, that they're extremists, driven by a dark vision. He understands them, because he's just like them. . . .

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Just this much of the article scared me... then I read the rest of it. How do you deal with someone who is so wrong, but firmly believes he is undeniably right?? devinely right??



Note: NYTimes requires registration (free) to read the articles.

skittles

Prepare the child for the path, not the path for the child.

When life hands you lemons, ask for a bottle of tequila and some salt

[justin]

I think there are a lot more than a few decent Republicans. It's just that the worst of the Republican party are the ones who are in control and who get most attention.



I've often seen it said that the problem with politics in America is that the battle lines between the two parties is growing increasingly hardened, with neither side willing to see the others point of view. That this combativeness between the two parties is damaging the country. In which case I'd say that taking a view point of democrat = good and republican = evil isn't helpful.



Anyway my, perhaps overly cynical, view is that there are two types of politician, bad and worse. I hope that Kerry beats Bush in November because Kerry is in the first group while Bush is in the second.

A good story should provoke discussion, debate, argument...and the occasional bar fight. -JMS

[sam7777]

GG: Certainly what the Republicans are doing to suppress legal votes is worse than what groups like ACORN are doing to get out the vote. For example, ACORN has said that they are tightening their procedures but procedures are in place to weed out fake registrations. Republican groups are throwing out valid registrations. Voter fraud is bad but what ACORN is doing won't prevent people who can vote from voting.

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It's just that the worst of the Republican party are the ones who are in control and who get most attention.

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justin: Agreed. This is why folks like the Log Cabin Republicans are trying to "take their party back". I'm no fan of the Democrats and their leadership council but Bush must go. That said I don't think it's a choice between bad and worse but between mediocre and bad. Bush is a bad president and must go IMHO. I think that Kerry will do a decent job and though he prolly won't accomplish much with a republican congress, he also won't do the harm that Bush has done.

_____________________

I still see dead lesbian cliches

Edited by: sam7777  at: 10/18/04 12:23 pm

[Ben Varkentine]

www.andrewsullivan.com/in...7483327528

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NOW, INCEST: Alan Keyes goes on the attack again, saying children of gay parents will live in families where "incest becomes inevitable." I await the outrage of Matthew Dowd, Lynne Cheney, Bill Kristol, Bill Safire, Mort Kondracke, Maureen Dowd, and on and on. Oh, wait. It's only if you say a positive thing about gay people that you're a homophobe. (Hat tip: Blueline.)

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Ben



"One voice is easily ignored or silenced, but when other people add their voices to yours, you become a chorus not easily ignored."--Wil "Just A Geek" Wheaton

Edited by: Ben Varkentine at: 10/18/04 12:16 pm

[sam7777]

Right now unless something changes, the future of the Republican party is to great rid of moderates like Spector and put in right wingers like Santorum. The party platform is certainly not moderate by any means. As a liberal independent, the Republicans have nothing to offer me. At least the Democrats offer a little (pro-choice, anti-FMA, sane foreign policy). The Republicans are simply not interested in reaching out beyond their base and can be expected not to do anything for people outside of it.

_____________________

I still see dead lesbian cliches

Edited by: sam7777  at: 10/18/04 3:07 pm

[justin]

A while ago 4WiccanLuv wrote,

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Close....a Hispanic Lesbian *newly* registered Republican. The Dems are beginning to scare me, they've gone plum loco. Sadly, the moderates have become extinct in my former Party.

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No one else has asked this, but I think it's an important question. What is it about the Democrats that scares you? Is it any particular policies, or is it just the general behaviour of Democrat supporters?

--

"There are some days that you just can't get rid of a bomb" - Batman: The Movie

[sam7777]

These Democrat supporters certainly scare me:

democrats4bush

as do these Republican supporters:

Rally Mobilizes Anti-Gay Christians For Election Day

and these Nader supporters:

Nader Accused Of Taking Anti-Gay Money



The gay community is very angry about the FMA and rightly fear what else the Bush administration will come up with in a second term: GOP using gays as pawns



-------- On the lighter side of the campaign --------

Bush, Kerry Battle For Dead Swing Voters

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Akron, Ohio -- (SP) With the election campaign heating up, both sides have turned to the cold vote to bring their candidate to victory.



In a stump speech designed to cater to the departed, President Bush promised that with his reforms to immigration policy, cemeteries will be mowed by legal aliens to this country who come here to find work.



"You take your average Jose, just over the border here from Mexico, and you tell him he can do anything he wants, as long as a white person doesn't want to do it, and he will" said the President Thursday to the vast crowd stored at Pinetree Hill Mausoleum.



Massachusetts Senator John Kerry, speaking to a group of deceased 'War of 1812' veterans in Chipawanee, New York, pointed out that in the last four years, George Bush had "Done nothing to improve our naval presence on the Great Lakes to prevent Canada from marching across our inland seas and shelling your great-great grandchildrens nursing homes"



"I think it is so nice for both parties to really speak up for the dead" noted Eugenia Parksidip of Chipawanee. Her husband, Randall, has become more active in politics since his death in 1985.



"He used to say that all those guys looked like car salesmen, but after the lord took him, he's been a rabid political junkie. Randall has voted straight democrat for what, twenty years."



Sheila Raynor, a member of the militant lesbian group "Political Equality, News, Information and Statistics", or P.E.N.I.S. for short, finds it shameful that the drive for the Commander and Chief has been led down a graveyard path.



"Its awful, those two men fighting over who can be more popular by promising things they can't deliver, like affordable health care or admitting that upright urination is an insult to women"



"It is the right of every cadaver, no matter how young or old, to have access to gravestone repair" said John Kerry to a question and answer session at Riley Ridge Funeral Parlor. "and to answer what you had asked, yes, I am in favor of using the full power of the Justice Department to prosecute 'stone tipping'"



In a poll of corpses likely to vote, nearly ninety-nine percent were either undecided or chose not to take part in the survey. With that much of a potential voting block up for grabs in key states, the president may be decided by who can cover the most turf.



"I know how you feel" spoke President Bush to the cremated remains of Lucille Volga, of Akron. "Crispy, dehydrated. It gets hot in Crawford. Like an oven. Hot."

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I guess with the polls ties they need every vote they can get :

Kerry, Bush Tied in Surveys by Zogby, NYT, Post

_____________________

I still see dead lesbian cliches

Edited by: sam7777  at: 10/19/04 11:59 am

[justin]

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I guess with the polls ties they need every vote they can get

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Well it worked for sideshow Bob, so why not?

--

"There are some days that you just can't get rid of a bomb" - Batman: The Movie

[4WiccanLuv]

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No one else has asked this, but I think it's an important question. What is it about the Democrats that scares you? Is it any particular policies, or is it just the general behaviour of Democrat supporters?

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Justin, thank you for asking. Part of it is the behavior of Democrats and Liberals. Especially the violence of late that never seems to make it into the headlines. The mainstream media bias is also disconcerting, i.e., Dan Rather and Memo-Gate, ABC’s recent inter office memo, wherein they were told to call Bush to task on comments made throughout his campaign, but same does not apply to Kerry. A letter writing campaign where the UK’s Guardian passed out email addresses for Clark County, Ohio voters in attempts to influence our election. The DNC asking their election officials to claim voter intimidation even though none exists. There have been reports of shootings and lootings of Republican HQs. AFL-CIO union protesters recently stormed a HQ in Florida and physically man-handled staffers. There was a cross burning in a yard that had Bush Cheney sign. Also, wide reports of vandalism of cars with GOP stickers. I’m not saying that there haven’t been incidents by Republicans, but not to these extremes. Personally, they’re turning every bit as ugly as they claim Republicans are.



In addition, since the 2000 election there has been an incredibly huge shift to the Left, which I do not care for. The Dems have aligned themselves with the Michael Moore types and are drinking the “conspiracy theory” cool-aid. As I stated earlier, the Moderates are extinct in the Democratic Party, with the exception of Zell Miller, Joe Lieberman and Ed Koch, to name a few. I feel John Kerry was a poor choice in a candidate and only settled for him only after Howard Dean did himself in. Anyhow, Kerry has been rated the number one most Liberal Senator and I fear he would lead us in a socialist type direction. Also, Kerry can't seem to take a stand on anything and stick to it. His decisions are based on which way the political wind is blowing at the time.



The policies are another point of contention. I’ll keep it simple. I support the War in Iraq and the continuing fight against terrorism, wherever that may take us. The last thing I care about is whether we’re globally liked or approved of. Ronald Reagan was widely hated and yet won peace through strength. I am against affirmative action, pro death penalty and pro 2nd amendment. I am in favor of lower taxes and smaller government. And yes, I do realize that Bush has spent more and actually expanded government…but then again, prior President’s did not have to deal with the effects of 9/11, so I give him a pass. IMO, he’s done a damn good job of keeping this country safe and strong so far.



That being said, I don’t think the country will fall apart if John Kerry wins the election. I probably won’t agree with his policies, but I will respect him and the office of the Presidency. On the other hand, I think most Dems really do believe we’re doomed if Bush wins four more years. I don’t share that negativity.

"Those are my principles. If you don't like them I have others." - Groucho Marx

[Diebrock]

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A letter writing campaign where the UK’s Guardian passed out email addresses for Clark County, Ohio voters in attempts to influence our election.

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You blame the Democrats for the actions of a foreign newspaper and foreign people? Wow.

I agree that was probably not a very thought-out campaign. Of course it was a great way of asking: how do you like foreigners meddling in your affairs. We all know that the Americans can dish it out but can't take it. Or maybe it was the European girly-men approach of letter writing and everything would have been better received if they had donated huge sums of money for the party they liked better, had put up sanctions for as long as the undesirable party was in power, had their intelligence agencies help overthrow the government or had sent armed troops to do the regime change completely themselves. Those are all US approved methods. Would you have liked that better? Neither does anyone else.



The following is a partial list of United States Covert action abroad to impose or restore favorable political conditions, 1946-1983. The list was prepared by Tom Gervasi of the Center for Military Research and Analysis in 1984, and it was compiled using information available in the public domain.



1946: GREECE. Restore monarch after overthrow of Metaxas government. Successful.



1946-1955: WEST GERMANY. Average of $6 million annually to support former Nazi intelligence network of General Reinhard Gehlen. Successful.



1948-1968: ITALY. Average of $30 million annually in payments to political and labor leaders to support anti-Communist candidates in Italian elections. Successful.



1949: GREECE. Military assistance to anti-Communist forces in Greek civil war. Successful.



1949-1953: UKRAINE. Organize and support a Ukrainian resistance movement. Unsuccessful.



1949-1961: BURMA. Support 12,000 Nationalist China troops in Burma under General Li Mi as an incursion force into People's Republic of China. Unsuccessful.



1950-1952: POLAND. Financial and military assistance for Polish Freedom and Independence Movement. Unsuccessful.



1950: ALBANIA. Overthrow government of Enver Hoxha. Unsuccessful.



1951-1954: CHINA. Airdrop guerilla teams into People's Republic of China. Unsuccessful.



1953: IRAN. Overthrow Mossadegh government and install Shah Zahedi. Cost: $10 million. Successful.



1953: PHILLIPINES. Assassination and propaganda campaign to overcome Huk resistance and install government of Ramon Magsaysay. Successful.



1953: COSTA RICA. Overthrow government of Jose Figueres. Unsuccessful.



1954: SOUTH VIETNAM. Install government of Ngo Dinh Diem. Successful.



1954: WEST GERMANY. Arrange abduction and discreditation of West German intelligence chief Otto John, and replace with Reinhard Gehlen. Successful.



1954: GUATEMALA. Overthrow government of Jacobo Arbenz Guzman and replace with Carlos Castillo Armas. Successful.



1955: CHINA. Assassinate Zhou Enlai en route to Bandung Conference. Unsuccessful.



1956: HUNGARY. Financial and military assistance to organize and support a Hungarian resistance movement, and broad propaganda campaign to encourage it. Unsuccessful.



1956: CUBA. Establish anti-Communist police force, Buro de Represion Actividades Communistas (BRAC) under Batista regime. Successful.



1956: EGYPT. Overthrow Nasser government. Unsuccessful.



1956: SYRIA. Overthrow Ghazzi government. Aborted by Israeli invasion of Egypt.



1956-1957: JORDAN. Average of $750,000 annually in personal payments to King Hussein. According to United States government, payments ceased when disclosed in 1976.



1957: LEBANON. Financial assistance for the election of pro-American candidates to Lebanese Parliament. Successful.



1958: INDONESIA. Financial and military assistance, including B-26 bombers, for rebel forces attempting to overthrow Sukarno government. Unsuccessful.



1958-1961: TIBET. Infiltrate Tibetan guerrillas trained in United States to fight Chinese Communists. Unsuccessful.



1959: CAMBODIA. Assassinate Prince Norodum Shianouk. Unsuccessful.



1960: GUATEMALA. Military assistance, including the use of B-26 bombers for government of Miguel Ydigoras Fuentes to defeat rebel forces. Successful.



1960: ANGOLA. Financial and military assistance to rebel forces of Holden Roberto. Inconclusive.



1960: LAOS. Military assistance, including 400 United States Special Forces troops, to deny the Plain of Jars bad Mekong Basin to Pathet Lao. Inconclusive.



1961-1965: LAOS. Average of $300 million annually to recruit and maintain L'Armee Clandestine of 35,000 Hmong and Meo tribesmen and 17,000 Thai mercenaries in support of government of Phoumi Nosavan to resist Pathet Lao. Successful.



1961-1963: CUBA. Assassinate Fidel Castro. Six attempts in this period. Unsuccessful.



1961: CUBA. Train and support invasion force of Cuban exiles to overthrow Castro government, and assist their invasion at the Bay of Pigs. Cost: $62 million. Unsuccessful.



1961: ECUADOR. Overthrow government of Hose Velasco Ibarra. Successful.



1961: CONGO. Precipitate conditions leading to assassination of Patrice Lumumba. Successful.



1961: DOMINICAN REPUBLIC. Precipitate conditions leading to assassination of Rafael Trujillo. Successful.



1961-1966: CUBA. Broad sabotage program, including terrorist attacks on coastal targets and bacteriological warfare, in effort to weaken Castro government. Unsuccessful.



1962: THAILAND. Brigade of 5,000 United States Marines to resist threat to Thai government from Pathet Lao. Successful.



1962-1964: BRITISH GUIANA. Organize labor strikes and riots to overthrow government of Cheddi Jagan. Successful.



1962-1964: BRAZIL. Organize campaign of labor strike and propaganda to overthrow government of Joao Goulart. Successful.



1963: DOMINICAN REPUBLIC. Overthrow government of Juan Bosch in military coup. Successful.



1963: SOUTH VIETNAM. Precipitate conditions leading to assassination of Ngo Dinh Diem. Successful.



1963: ECUADOR. Overthrow government of Carlos Julio Arosemena. Successful.



1963-1984: EL SALVADOR. Organize ORDEN and ANSESAL domestic intelligence networks under direction of General Jose Alberto Medrano and Colonel Nicolas Carranza, and provide intelligence support and training in surveillance, interrogation and assassination techniques. Successful.



1963-1973: IRAQ. Financial and military assistance for Freedom Party of Mulla Mustafa al Barzani in effort to establish independent Kurdistan. Unsuccessful.



1964: CHILE. $20 million in assistance for Eduardo Frei to defeat Salvador Allende in Chilean elections.Successful.



1964: BRAZIL, GUATEMALA, URUGUAY, DOMINICAN REPUBLIC. Provide training in assassination and interrogation techniques for police and intelligence personnel. Inconclusive.



1964: CONGO. Financial and military assistance, including B-26 and T-28 aircraft, and American and exiled Cuban pilots, for Joseph Mobutu and Cyril Adoula, and later for Moise Tshombe in Katanga, to defeat rebel forces loyal to Lumumba. Successful.



1964-1967: SOUTH VIETNAM. Phoenix Program to eliminate Viet Cong political infrastructure through more than 20,000 assassinations. Infiltrated by Viet Cong and only partially successful.



1964-1971: NORTH VIETNAM. Sabotage and ambush missions under Operations Plan 34A by United States Special Forces and Nung tribesmen. Inconclusive.



1965-1971: LAOS. Under Operations Shining Brass and Prairie Fire, sabotage and ambush missions by United States Special Forces personnel and Nung and Meo tribesmen under General Bang Pao. Inconclusive.



1965: THAILAND. Recruit 17,000 mercenaries to support Laotian government of Phoumi Nosavan resisting Pathet Lao. Successful.



1965: PERU. Provide training in assassination and interrogation techniques for Peruvian police and intelligence personnel, similar to training given in Uruguay, Brazil and Dominican Republic, in effort to defeat resistance movement. Unsuccessful.



1965: INDONESIA. Organize campaign of propaganda to overthrow Sukarno government, and precipitate conditions leading to massacre of more than 500,000 members of Indonesian Communist Party, in order to eliminate opposition to new Suharto government. Successful.



1967: BOLIVIA. Assist government in capture of Ernesto Che Guevara. Successful.



1967: GREECE. Overthrow government of George Papandreou and install military government of Colonel George Papadopolous after abdication of King Constantine. Successful.



1967-1971: CAMBODIA. Under Projects Daniel Boone and Salem House, sabotage and ambush missions by United States Special Forces personnel and Meo tribesmen. Inconclusive.



1969-1970: CAMBODIA. Bombing campaign to crush Viet Cong sanctuaries in Cambodia. Unsuccessful.



1970: CAMBODIA. Overthrow government of Prince Norodom Sihanouk. Successful.



1970-1973: CHILE. Campaign of assassinations, propaganda, labor strikes and demonstrations to overthrow government of Salvador Allende. Cost: $8,400,000. Successful.



1973-1978: AFGHANISTAN. Military and financial assistance to government of Mohammed Duad to resist rise to power of Noor Mohammed Taraki. Unsuccessful.



1975: PORTUGAL. Overthrow government of General Vasco dos Santos Goncalves. Successful.



1975: ANGOLA. Military assistance to forces of Holden Roberto and Jonas Savimbi to defeat forces of Popular Movement for the Liberation of Angola (MPLA) during Angolan civil war, and prevent MPLA from forming new government. Unsuccessful.



1975: AUSTRALIA. Propaganda and political pressure to force dissolution of labor government of Gough Whitlam. Successful.



1976: JAMAICA. Military coup to overthrow government of Michael Manley. Unsuccessful.



1976-1984: ANGOLA. Financial and military assistance to forces of Jonas Savimbi to harass and destabilize Neto and succeeding governments. Inconclusive.



1979: IRAN. Install military government to replace Shah and resist growth of Moslem fundamentalism. Unsuccessful.



1979-1980: JAMAICA. Financial pressure to destabilize government of Michael Manley, and campaign propaganda and demonstrations to defeat it in elections. Successful.



1979: AFGHANISTAN. Military aid to rebel forces of Zia Nezri, Zia Khan Nassry, Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, Sayed Ahmed Gailani and conservative mullahs to overthrow government of Hafizullah Amin. Aborted by Soviet intervention and installation of new government.



1980-1984: AFGHANISTAN. Continuing military aid to same rebel groups to harass Soviet occupation forces and challenge legitimacy of government of Babrak Karmal.



1979: SEYCHELLES. Destabilize government of France Albert Rene. Successful.



1980: GRENADA. Mercenary coup to overthrow government of Maurice Bishop. Successful.



1980: DOMINICA. Financial support to Freedom Party of Eugenia Charles to defeat Oliver Seraphim in Dominican elections. Successful.



1980: GUYANA. Assassinate opposition leader Walter Rodney to consolidate power of government of Forbes Burnham. Successful.



1980-1984: NICARAGUA. Military assistance to Adolfo Colero Portocarrero, Alfonso Robelo, Alfonso Callejas, Fernando Chamorro Rappacioli, Eden Pastora Gomez, Adrianna Guillen, Steadman Fagoth and former Somoza National Guard officers, to recruit, train and equip anti- Sandinista forces for sabotage and terrorist incursions into Nicaragua from sanctuaries in Honduras and Costa Rica, in effort to destabilize government of Daniel Ortega Saavedra.



1981: SEYCHELLES. Military coup to overthrow government of France Albert Rene. Unsuccessful.



1981-1982: MAURITIUS. Financial support to Seewoosagar Ramgoolam to bring him to power in 1982 elections. Unsuccessful.



1981-1984: LIBYA. Broad campaign of economic pressure, propaganda, military maneuvers in Egypt, Sudan and Gulf of Sidra, and organization if Libyan Liberation Front exiles to destabilize government of Muammar Qaddafi. Inconclusive.



1982: CHAD. Military assistance to Hissen Habre to overthrow government of Goukouni Oueddei. Successful.



1982: GUATEMALA. Military coup to overthrow government of Angel Anibal Guevara. Successful.



1982: BOLIVIA. Military coup to overthrow government of Celso Torrelio. Successful.



1982: JORDAN. Military assistance to equip and train two Jordanian brigades as an Arab strike force to implement United States policy objectives without Israeli assistance.



1982-1983: SURINAM. Overthrow government of Colonel Desi Bouterse. Three attempts in this period. Unsuccessful.



1984: EL SALVADOR. $1.4 million in financial support for the Presidential election campaign of Jose Napoleon Duarte. Successful.

_________________

Independence is my happiness, and I view things as they are, without regard to place or person; my country is the world, and my religion is to do good.

I've kissed her best friend. I've reached into her best friend's pocket and fished around for keys. And I gave her best friend my number. I must be doing something totally, totally wrong... - TBSOL by Dreams

[Jimmi Magnus]

4WiccanLuv wrote:

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Anyhow, Kerry has been rated the number one most Liberal Senator and I fear he would lead us in a socialist type direction.

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Now, I'm a socialist and all, and I have a hard time understanding what someone can have against socialism. What is it specifically you fear? Is it the free healthcare available to any human being? Is it the assurance that nobody lives in poverty? The ability of everybody to get the education they want? Please clarify what it is you fear.





Justin wrote:

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It seems to me that the words "land of the free and home of the brave" don't mean much any more.

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It's a common misconception among americans, that the United States of America is the bastion of freedom and democracy in the world. And as such, that there is nothing to learn from the rest of the world when it comes to democracy and freedom.



Currently the US is only #7 in freedom of the press

Has only the 17th lowest corruption level in the world

And unlike many European democracies, citizens of the United States of America does not have a constitutional right to vote



If the US is to be the bastion of freedom and democracy, then the first step is to stop spreading the myth about the best system in the world. Only then will it be possible to make the necessary changes to become the fabled bastion.





Lastly to sam777: I would agree with you that republicans are more scared than democrats about a higher voter turnout. History has shown that the more people who vote, in a democracy, the more left-wing politicians gets elected.

Du skal ha lussinger i takt til musikken

Edited by: Jimmi Magnus at: 10/20/04 7:38 am

[Kieli]

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A letter writing campaign where the UK’s Guardian passed out email addresses for Clark County, Ohio voters in attempts to influence our election.

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And what? We're not over in Iraq and Afghanistan influencing their elections by having our own hand-picked "advisors" and policemen in place? One word: Blinders. Not unexpected, mind you.

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I’m not saying that there haven’t been incidents by Republicans, but not to these extremes.

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Apparently you've not been reading the links that others have been posting about said the Republicans actions which are just as onerous...or choose not to.

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The Dems have aligned themselves with the Michael Moore types and are drinking the “conspiracy theory” cool-aid.

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This is quite incorrect but, it's like with anything else, if you pay enough attention to Fox News and only hear the loud mouths of the Democratic Party, you're missing out on all the rest of us who ARE moderate. Even Al Sharpton and other candidates did not suscribe to the Michael Moore theory, so your argument is on shaky ground at best. Also, within every conspiracy theory there is, at least, some grain of truth. Whether or not you want to acknowledge or hear it is another matter.

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Anyhow, Kerry has been rated the number one most Liberal Senator and I fear he would lead us in a socialist type direction. Also, Kerry can't seem to take a stand on anything and stick to it. His decisions are based on which way the political wind is blowing at the time.

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I find this quote most amusing...Bush who became a born again Christian just weeks before his first presidential campaign, Bush who made specific promises to the gays and lesbians who helped him get elected and then reneged faster than you could say "Osama Bin Laden", Bush who blatantly lied about our reasons for going to war with a country that was NOT involved in 9-11 (did you actually read the 9-11 Commission Report?) only to admit to that under duress. Sure he stands by his decision; he has no choice. It was a colossal blunder and he STILL has not found the man behind 9-11! Talk about making decisions according to political wind. The Patriot Act, et. al., was made solely according to political climate and the fear in the country. We are no safer than we were almost four years ago. Many people have proven that by their successful attempts at penetrating our so called "security measures" and calling the government on it. Granted, I don't like Kerry either and I think my beliefs tend to lean toward the more Libertarian side than Democrat (although I am a registered Dem); however, I DO think that we are in deep trouble if Bush becomes president again. And I reiterate JM's question to you: What's wrong with socialism? Nothing. France and Canada have embraced socialist values and have been quite successful in that effort.

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I support the War in Iraq and the continuing fight against terrorism, wherever that may take us. The last thing I care about is whether we’re globally liked or approved of.

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Funny, that sounds like cutting off your nose to spite your face, since Bush is now calling on those people whose opinions he cares nothing about to help us finish up the fight we started in Iraq. So what was that about not caring if we're globally like or approved of? Like it or not, we need our allies. Bush is finally getting that b/c we simply cannot afford this fiasco and this long term "fight against terrorism" (and I use that term oh so loosely) and now decides we need help. If we get dropped from NATO tomorrow, you know what? We won't be able to go it alone. Now that the US is no longer, 100% American (like Wall Street is almost all owned by foreign banks and investment houses as we speak, almost all of our goods come from places OTHER than America and a good bit of our work has been shipped overseas through incentives given by Bush), we can't afford to. We're a multinational nation that touts our moral pillar. We can no longer afford the luxury of sanctimony (actually, we never really could). It's not about a global popularity contest. It IS, however, about treating our allies and other nations with respect, dignity and humanity and not treating them like ad hoc vassals meant to serve or emulate our "great democratic state". They don't have to like us, true enough. But we should, at least, be concerned as to whether or not we deserve their respect. We used to have that. Not anymore.

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I am against affirmative action, pro death penalty and pro 2nd amendment. I am in favor of lower taxes and smaller government.

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I am too but I don't need to wave the Republican flag to prove it.

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IMO, he’s done a damn good job of keeping this country safe and strong so far.

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Not hardly, it's just not been trumpeted in the newspaper, on television or on the radio. If you go to any airport in the MidWest, a terrorist can get on a plane, train or bus with no problems whatsoever. Too much focus has been placed on airports and not enough on the secondary modes of travel (hell, a terrorist can drive a car to whatever target they need to get to without being hindered). My point is, if someone REALLY hates us enough, they will find a way around our weak security attempts. Ever wonder why Tom Ridge is giving up his post as Homeland Security Director (besides the reason he gave in his press conference)? I would.

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On the other hand, I think most Dems really do believe we’re doomed if Bush wins four more years. I don’t share that negativity.

---

Ignorance is bliss, after all.

Time flies by when the Devil drives.
It's not the pace of life that concerns me, it's the sudden stop at the end.

Edited by: Kieli at: 10/20/04 1:39 pm

[Diebrock]

On the topic of European versus american values I remembered this little satire (it's already a couple of years old, I believe)

It shows pretty well why we prefer our socialism.

---

Bush Liberates Europe!

By Erik H. Thoreson

Wild celebrations greet president as 10-year marijuana sentences, assault rifles and politicians who never lose their hair...sweep across continent!



With the publication of President Bush's statement of strategic priorities, a euphoric outburst of gleeful anticipation is sweeping across Europe. America intends to make our world "not just safer but better" -- an action that will be "sustained by faith in the principles of liberty and the value of a free society." Bush intends "to extend the benefits of liberty and prosperity through the spread of American values and tangible rewards for good governance." Discussion and speculation abound. What will the new Americanized Europe look like?



No country will feel the effects of Americanization more than Norway, long known for its naive view of social responsibility and fairness. American values will liberate Norway from the repressive restrictions of its social-democratic philosophy. While some disagreements continue over the look of the New Norway, a general consensus on major changes is taking form.



After more than half a century of high-quality, universal and equal healthcare treatment for all, Norwegians will adopt the more elegant pay-as-you-go American system. The best medicine will be reserved for those who can afford it. Those who can't will either join a limited service, for-profit HMO or simply go without healthcare. After all, who said healthcare was a right? It is a privilege for those who have earned the right to pay for it.



As part of the same exciting transformation, Europeans will soon be paying four to 10 times more for their prescription drugs, bringing pricing in line with the American experience. Americans understand pharmaceutical corporations have to make strong profits so they can develop new drugs. The American way is to solve every problem with a pill, so drug company profits must be protected at all costs.



To improve their safety and allow them to defend their personal property, Europeans will be encouraged to own and carry handguns, assault rifles and any other weapons they want. There is little doubt Europe will be the "safer" place promised by Bush once capital punishment returns, offering people the same deterrent protection against the murder of children and other innocents Americans enjoy.



Marijuana users will face long-term incarceration, raising public morality while also creating a boom in penal institution construction and increased employment not only for building tradesmen but individuals attracted to the dynamic new profession of prison guard.



Global fast-food companies will put small restaurants out of business, allowing Europeans to enjoy the security of knowing that no matter where they travel, the food will always taste, smell and look identical and be served by minimum wage, uniformed high school kids or pensioners. McDonald's, Burger King, KFC, Subway and other franchises will eliminate the anxiety of restaurant choice. As all European towns will look the same once the franchises and strip malls have been installed, Americans will no longer have to visit six countries in 10 days during their once-in-a-lifetime overseas trip.



Stand a group of Europeans next to a group of Americans, and it is obvious the former are nutritionally deprived. Once fast-food restaurants take over, Europeans will grow to their proper size. And the economic benefits will be multiple: Big and Tall shops will open in all countries, and a billion-dollar diet industry will spring up. Foul-tasting low-fat foods will be everywhere. No food product will ever again be sold without a package claim of 10 to 99 percent less fat, calories, sodium, etc., etc.



Food animals will be raised the American way. No longer will chickens, lamb, beef cattle or any food animal be denied the benefits of growth hormones and antibiotic maxi-doses. Grains will all be biotech and farms will be run by huge corporations, which will benefit everyone. Selfish small-acreage farms will be swallowed up. Enormous food animal facilities will allow neighbors from miles around to smell the sweet scent of animal waste day and night. The sharing of animal droppings in streams, rivers and lakes will promote new exotic plant growth in unexpected places, greening our dull European world and delighting everyone.



Europeans will no longer have to endure the burden of producing their own products. All items needed for good living will be produced in Third World countries. Even better, each town, large or small, will have at least one Wal-Mart to sell those goods. Wal-Mart will no longer be just "America's store" -- it will supply the world with low-priced goods while providing minimum-wage, 28-hour-a-week, no-benefits jobs for a permanent class of service serfs. As an added benefit, the congestion that has long plagued town centers in Europe will be relieved once Wal-Mart puts most small retail stores out of business.



When it comes to work, it'll be time for lazy Europeans to come to terms with the fact that "La Dolce Vita" may have been a great movie, but it's an unprofitable way to live. Four or more weeks of vacation a year will be replaced by two weeks (after two years of work).



Taxes formerly levied on the rich will be transferred to the middle class, creating a shortfall. Governments will then be justified in cutting back on public transportation or forcing it to privatize. Once railways and bus systems go on the auction block, automobile corporations will snap them up, as they did in many parts of America, and quickly bankrupt them. This will dramatically increase the need for cars, which will greatly increase employment in low-wage countries around the world. It won't be long before all Europeans either own or dream of the day they will own an American-made SUV. These gas-guzzling polluters will warm the earth, bringing a smile to the face of freedom-loving Eskimos, Siberians and researchers in Baffin Land.



Europe's confusing and chaotic political parties will be eliminated, replaced by a one-party system pretending to be two. Europeans will learn that what they previously considered corruption (giving huge cash donations to politicians to gain access and consideration) is really "free speech." At last they will be permitted to enjoy yearlong campaigns. No more six-week campaigns without TV advertising. And those weekly forums when the leaders of each party sit together and present their visions to the public -- b-o-r-i-n-g. American-style attack ads will bring pizzazz and entertainment back to politics.



After years of dangerous transparency, Norwegian politicians will no longer be required by "sunshine" laws to turn over all correspondence not related to national security to any citizen who asks to see it. As Vice-President Dick Cheney and the top oil executives who helped him formulate America's energy policy know, no government becomes great by letting the people in on what it is doing!



Europe will adopt American accounting rules, allowing CEOs to adjust the profit figures and enrich executives, who are already paid 500 times the wage of ordinary workers. Golden parachutes and $1 million-a-year retirement packages for CEOs will give European executives the incentive to do a better job for shareholders. Government oversight of corporate business conduct will be replaced by the American system of self-regulation, which has proven to be so effective.



For too many years Norwegians and other Europeans have been neglecting their economic -- which means patriotic -- responsibilities. "Living within one's means" is a fine-sounding phrase, but it does nothing to help national economies to grow. Consequently, all Europeans will be sent five to 20 credit cards so they can begin to incur a level of debt consistent with American freedom and values.



"Whenever I hear the word 'culture,' I reach for my revolver," Goebbels said, and his far-seeing words will provide the parameters for a bold new market-based approach to the arts and entertainment. Tax-supported public television stations will be sold to commercial interests. The discredited 20th century notion of airways belonging to the people will be history, as will the limited economic potential of broadcasting for the public good. Global media companies will decide what news or programs the public will see. Europeans will discover how much better entertainment is when a program is interrupted every 10 minutes to air five commercials!



A new era of victimhood will lead Norwegians to sue en masse for punitive damages. Presently Norwegians are expected to watch where they are going; they assume their accidents to be at least in part their responsibility. When American values prevail, this bizarre delusion will vanish, increasing the number of trial lawyers and other underrepresented professionals.



Sustainable energy schemes like Denmark's electricity-producing windmills will be stopped. People will be encouraged to use energy created with oil and coal. God put it there in the ground for our use; it would be wrong to turn our back on His gift. Europeans will realize that the Kyoto treaty is an insult to man's rightful dominion over nature. No country should ever sign treaties that might cause corporations to spend more money and thereby reduce profits: in the words of President Bush, "I'm not doing anything that will hurt the American economy." Once American values are in place, no country in Europe will have to care about or cooperate with, any other country in the world. That's freedom!



Europeans will accept that the best use of historic buildings is as gigantic billboards. If the Coliseum must stay in its present location, its name will be changed to the "Nike Coliseum." The preservation of culture, traditions, history and even language must be justified economically. Ninety-five percent of all Norwegians may currently attend Independence Day parades and celebrations, but no marketing studies have been carried out to determine whether these events generate enough business to make them economically feasible. If they do not, they must be ceased. Global soft-drink corporations will place their vending machines in every school, bending children's minds to assure brand loyalty and create lifelong consumers.



With American values will come a mass influx of toupees. Unlike in Europe, no American politician, political pundit or news analyst appears to have ever lost a single hair. Moreover, research indicates that almost all American politicians who wear toupees avoided military service in their youth. One theory is that toupee wearers are better able to tolerate the heat of the false hair on their heads since they were never required to wear helmets.



Finally, American values will enable Europeans to fulfill their real obligations. Instead of wasting their tax money on healthcare, social programs, repair of roads, bridges and support of cultural programs, the money will be spent on defense. The European Union will emerge as a potent military force. That will eliminate the endless time and millions of dollars needed to work in harmony with the rest of the world. Europe can turn all its efforts inward and not worry about things like world poverty, disease, the environment, global warming, pollution, brutal dictatorships or hunger. If other countries don't like it, tough. Like America, Europe will be a shining city of freedom on the distant hill, needing no one and watching out only for its own interests.



We can hardly wait.



--------------------



About the writer : Erik H. Thoreson spends six months a year in his native land, Norway. He regularly comments on the state of America.

_________________

Independence is my happiness, and I view things as they are, without regard to place or person; my country is the world, and my religion is to do good.

I've kissed her best friend. I've reached into her best friend's pocket and fished around for keys. And I gave her best friend my number. I must be doing something totally, totally wrong... - TBSOL by Dreams

[sam7777]

I don't consider Kerry to be a liberal but a moderate and I consider Bush to be a right-winger (I use that word because liberal is an equally ugly word these days). If you agree with the likes of Zell Miller, you are quite right of center and Bush is prolly the president for you though I still don't see how you can reconcile his anti-gay views as a gay person or Prop 187 as an hispanic but it really doesn't matter. Personally, I wish that Kerry had come out in favor of gay marriage (the actual liberal position) and was more opposed to the Iraq war (also the actual liberal position) but I'll take him over Bush any day.



I'd rather argue for Kerry than go over why folks want to vote for bush in hopes that others can be convinced to vote for Kerry and gay rights. The Republicans are fighting a cultural war with GLBT folks in the crosshairs. If they win then we lose.



Republican Party admits to antigay mailers



Hate Crimes and Republican Anti-Gay Bigotry



Republican Anti-Gay Strategy Moves Forward



With Bush and the Republicans, you can be sure that you will never be able to marry or have a civil union, adopt kids, or even teach in schools to name a few. I'm not more afraid of terrorists than I am of losing my civil rights which is why I'll be voting for Kerry on Nov 2. Like Maudmac, I hopw that enough other people vote against our oppressors.

_____________________

I still see dead lesbian cliches

Edited by: sam7777  at: 10/20/04 12:29 pm

[justin]

4WiccanLuv, thanks for the very in depth answer. I think I've got a better idea of where you're coming from now.



That said, I have to say that my views are pretty much diametrically opposed to yours

Quote:

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I am against affirmative action, pro death penalty and pro 2nd amendment. I am in favor of lower taxes and smaller government.

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I'm pro affirmative actions, anti death penalty, pro gun control and favour higher taxes and larger government. I'm also a socialist.



The only statement I agree with is this one

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The last thing I care about is whether we’re globally liked or approved of.

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I don't particularly care if America is globally liked or not either. I just wish that when destroying it's international image, America would stop dragging Britain down with it.

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Anyhow, Kerry has been rated the number one most Liberal Senator

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By who?

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The mainstream media bias is also disconcerting, i.e., Dan Rather and Memo-Gate, ABC’s recent inter office memo, wherein they were told to call Bush to task on comments made throughout his campaign, but same does not apply to Kerry.

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This is all so confusing. Democrats say the media is biased in favour of the Republicans, while Republicans say it's biased in favour of the Democrats, who's right? Or maybe this is an example of quantum mechanics, and where you see bias depends on how you observe the system.

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As I stated earlier, the Moderates are extinct in the Democratic Party,

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It also seems that the Moderates are extinct in the Republican party as well, or at least they're not being given a voice.

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but I will respect him and the office of the Presidency.

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This strikes me as being a curious statement. The office of the Presidency is just a job, how do you have respect for a job title. Surely you have respect for people, and that should be dependant on their actions, not their job.

--

"There are some days that you just can't get rid of a bomb" - Batman: The Movie

[Willowlicious]

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The DNC asking their election officials to claim voter intimidation even though none exists.

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Wow. There is a long history of voter intimidation in this country. It is VERY real. I live just outside Detroit and have seen it in action personally. Everything from moving polling sites in poor areas at the last minute, posting signs with the wrong voting date, to stationing "officials" near polling sites to ask voters if they've brought their birth certificates or passports for proof of citizenship, paid their back taxes, etc.



In fact on Monday, one of my girlfriend's co-workers brought in a flyer that had been left in her door (and hundreds of others in her pre-dominately black neighborhood) telling citizens to remember that they could NOT VOTE if they were behind on any of their utility bills. As if! Sadly, some people in poor areas are not well versed of their rights and the true requirements of voting. That, of course, is just what Republicans are preying on, because, of course again, minorities and lower income voters overwhelmingly trend Democratic.



Being an insulated white girl from the suburbs, I used to wonder if voter intimidation was actually still an issue, too. But now that I live and work in an urban area with many minorities, I KNOW it is true.



And it's sad. And it's un-American.



Amy

[sam7777]

McCarthy in an interview on Inside Politics had a very good point about liberalism. If it's so bad then what liberal achievements would you like to do without:



1. Social Security

2. Medicare

3. Civil Rights

4. Gay tolerance



None of the above would have passed if conservatives had their way and now they are trying to turn back the clock. I'm more afraid of laws being passed against gays in this country than terrorists.



ETA: When outing works

Quote:

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Almost 40 years ago, The New York Times got a tip that Daniel Burrows, a former number 2 at the American Nazi Party, was Jewish. Abe Rosenthal and Arthur Gelb were running the Metropolitan desk back then, and they assigned McCandlish Phillips to the story. Rosenthal and Gelb both happened to be Jewish, while Phillips was a deeply religious Christian and one of the Times’s most meticulous reporters ever. When the story was published revealing that the 28-year-old Nazi was a Jew, Burrows killed himself.



Hypocrisy—which in this case had morphed into extreme self-hatred—has traditionally been viewed by serious journalists as a good reason to do a story. In our own time, some activists have argued that gay Republicans who actively work against gay causes are also guilty of a kind of hypocrisy that deserves public exposure.



I don’t think there is any good argument for outing a closeted politician who supports gay rights. But any secretly gay person who uses his bully pulpit to vilify his own people deserves the treatment gay blogger Michael Rogers is now meting out in the nation’s capital. Rogers has caused consternation everywhere, from the Log Cabin Republicans to the Human Rights Campaign, by announcing that he will out any closeted Republican who espouses antigay positions or works for a congressman or senator who does.



Rogers’s latest victim is Ed Schrock, a two-term Republican congressman from Virginia who was running for reelection this fall—until Rogers identified him as a closeted gay man (with a wife and an adult son). Schrock declined all comment for 11 days, then bowed out of the race. He never did say whether he was gay or not; he just acknowledged the existence of allegations that “will not allow my campaign to focus on the real issues facing our nation and region.” Rogers’s smoking gun was a tape he said captured Schrock placing a voice-mail ad for gay sex. The man on the tape is looking for “nothing real heavy-duty, but just a fun time.”



One good reason for outing people like Schrock is that closet cases are so frequently among our most virulent enemies. People secure in their own heterosexuality are rarely threatened by us; it’s all those talking heads from the religious right on the Sunday talk shows that we really have to worry about.



Schrock appears to be an excellent example of the self-hating gay man. Not only did he support the move to amend the U.S. Constitution to ban gay marriage; in his first run for Congress in 2000 he called for the repeal of Bill Clinton’s “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy—because it was too pro-gay. “You’re in the showers with them, you’re in the bunk room with them, you’re in the staterooms with them,” the candidate told The Virginian-Pilot. And Schrock knows what he’s talking about. Before he turned to politics, he spent 24 years in the Navy—so apparently he was one of those shower lurkers himself.



“Why should my community protect him?” Rogers asked The Washington Post. “He’s the enemy.”



Some people are more squeamish when it comes to outing gay staffers of homophobic legislators, which Rogers also started doing during the antigay marriage amendment debate in the Senate last summer. “It’s not going to help the cause at all,” Lynden Armstrong told another Washington reporter. Armstrong works for Republican senator Pete Domenici of New Mexico and is a founder of the Gay and Lesbian Association of Senate Staffers. Domenici, of course, is another supporter of the anti–gay-marriage amendment. “It is not fair that they are doing this,” Armstrong said.



Perhaps Armstrong is right that the tactic won’t change the minds of any senators. But it should certainly make closeted lesbians and gay men think twice before contributing their talents to legislators who want to take away our basic civil rights. No one is forcing these staffers to take these jobs. If gay people working for antigay legislators aren’t losing any sleep over these career choices, what’s wrong with the rest of us exposing their hypocrisy to the world?

---

DiFranco, Cho bring anti-Bush message

Quote:

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Ani DiFranco and Margaret Cho joined forces at the Overture Center for the Arts Tuesday in an effort to swell the ranks of voters who hope to put a new president in office.



"It looks like your town got the memo," DiFranco, who spent the previous day tooling around Madison, told the sold- out crowd. "It seemed like everyone I passed on the street was talking about participating and activating."



In the lobby, an army of clipboard-toting supporters worked diligently to make sure concertgoers were registered to vote, so, as Cho put it, "we can get our country back."



"We want democracy, not demo-crazy," said Cho, who called the current atmosphere in the nation "perilous."



"First of all, free Cat Stevens," she said, referencing the former singer and peace activist who years ago converted to Islam. Recently, the plane on which Stevens was traveling from London to Washington, D.C., was diverted to Maine because Stevens (now Yusuf Islam) is on a U.S. no-fly list.



Saying the country's terrorism warning elevates whenever President Bush is down in the polls, Cho predicted that on Election Day, "Osama Bin Laden is gonna jump out of a cake."



Cho used her often risque humor masterfully to build a case against the Bush administration and its assault on gay rights and women's rights.



"You know things are bad when you're reminiscing about how good a president Ronald Reagan was," said Cho, whose performance was highlighted by a hilarious routine on the supposed dangers of women's sexuality.



Rather demure in comparison, DiFranco let her presence and her lyrics speak for themselves in echoing Cho's message.



With lyrics such as "I am an all-powerful amazon warrior not just some sniveling girl" - from the song "Origami," on her latest CD, "Educated Guess" - DiFranco harkened back to her earliest songs, which earned her a fierce following of young women rightfully claiming their own power and potential.



Along with newer works, DiFranco offered earlier songs characteristically born anew, such as "As Is," "Untouchable Face" and "Anticipate."



"You gotta rub some juju on those seats, work this place in a little," DiFranco playfully teased before chiding Overture Center for being the only hall on the tour that charged for a table to be used by groups providing information and registering people to vote.



"If you think that's dumb, you can contact this venue," she said.



But Overture treated DiFranco right in providing a stellar venue for her intimate bass- accompanied performance. While her set leaned toward more introspective and contemplative choices, DiFranco fully conveyed the passion she brings to her words and music.



DiFranco underscored the evening's theme by ending with her poem "Grand Canyon," which begins and ends with a profession of love for her country and joyful indebtedness to all the people throughout its history who have fought the government for what is right "so that we could stand here and behold breathlessly the sight how a raging river of tears cut a grand canyon of light."



During intermission, a slide show chronicled how women, blacks and Native Americans have had to fight for the right to vote and the ability to exercise it without being the target of violence.



Black gay comedian Bruce Daniels, who opened the show, brought biting humor to his condemnation of the Bush administration and its proposed constitutional amendment against gay marriage.



"If I pay my taxes in this country, shouldn't I have every right everyone else has?" asked Daniels, who equated being a gay Republican to being a Jewish Nazi. "How could you hate yourself some more?



"I'm not going to let this administration scare me back into the closet."

---

_____________________

I still see dead lesbian cliches

Edited by: sam7777  at: 10/20/04 2:57 pm

[darkmagicwillow]

Quote:

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IMO, he’s done a damn good job of keeping this country safe and strong so far.

---

The Simpsons has a good answer to the idea that Bush is responsible for making the US safer since there have been no attacks since 9/11:



Homer: Not a bear in sight. The Bear Patrol must be working like a charm.

Lisa: That's specious reasoning, Dad.

Homer: Thank you, dear.

Lisa: By your logic I could claim that this rock keeps tigers away.

Homer: Oh, how does it work?

Lisa: It doesn't work.

Homer: Uh-huh.

Lisa: It's just a stupid rock.

Homer: Uh-huh.

Lisa: But I don't see any tigers around, do you?

[Homer thinks of this, then pulls out some money]

Homer: Lisa, I want to buy your rock.

[Lisa refuses at first, then takes the exchange]

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

[Diebrock]

Quote:

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Anyhow, Kerry has been rated the number one most Liberal Senator and I fear he would lead us in a socialist type direction.

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I know I'm coming in bits and pieces but...

I have already given my opinion about the superiority of socialism.

But I have now come across a very interesting site that disputes the first part of your statement. Kerry has been rated the number one most Liberal Senator, yes...by Republicans...in a RNC ad. You shouldn't believe ads of any kind from anyone.

Anyway, factcheck.org (you know, that Cheney-promoted site) has this to say:



For the entire article go here.

Quote:

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Summary



A Republican National Committee ad released Oct. 16 claims that Kerry is "the most liberal man in the Senate." It's true that vote rankings by the politically neutral magazine The National Journal rated Kerry "most liberal" in 2003 and in three earlier years during his first Senate term: 1986, 1988, and 1990. But over his entire career the Journal ranks Kerry the 11th most liberal Senator. And by other rankings he's only a bit left of his party's center.

---

_________________

Independence is my happiness, and I view things as they are, without regard to place or person; my country is the world, and my religion is to do good.

I've kissed her best friend. I've reached into her best friend's pocket and fished around for keys. And I gave her best friend my number. I must be doing something totally, totally wrong... - TBSOL by Dreams

[darkmagicwillow]

Quote:

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Part of it is the behavior of Democrats and Liberals. Especially the violence of late that never seems to make it into the headlines. The mainstream media bias is also disconcerting, i.e., Dan Rather and Memo-Gate, ABC’s recent inter office memo, wherein they were told to call Bush to task on comments made throughout his campaign, but same does not apply to Kerry.

---

Actually, the media is not biased towards the Democrats. For every Dan Rather, there's something like the story that Fox News made up about Kerry. Fox News briefs its reporters to pass on their pro-Bush message of the day every day, while trumpting their "fair and balanced" stance. I've also noticed how many issues, like Republican trashing of Democratic registrations, goes unreported too. Our coverage of the War on Iraq on every major network is amazingly biased; check out Google News for a broad spectrum of reports from across the world to see how the war in Iraq is really going.



As for the vandalism stories, perhaps the press wants some substantiation in case the stories turn out to be plants like the special Olympics Bush flier in Tennessee or that 3-year old who supposedly got her sign torn up by Kerry supporters...just like how her dad got in the news for the same thing in 1996 and 2000 too. It's an ugly election cycle, but the Republicans are far from innocent. Their New England campaign chief just resigned over criminal charges from subverting elections in 2002, something the DOJ and Bush administration knew about well before he was appointed to that position.

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

[Gatito Grande]

Or is that "Another Ex-Democracy due to Bush?"



4WL, I'll give you this: you make me check the Board FAQ. It contains these words of wisdom:

Quote:

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Remember posting on the kitten Board doesn't make you a kitten, keeping in the spirit of the board makes you a kitten.

---

Submitted for general consideration: "The last thing I care about is whether we’re [U.S. of A.] globally liked or approved of."



It seems to me that, the Kitten being an international board as it is (which is to say, it's on the internet, and the mods don't ask for your passport/Green Card at the gate), that this, well, Amerika Uber Alles bias is NOT "keeping in the spirit of the board."



GG As I've said in the past to Tabby, and I'll say to anyone: all Kitten nationalities are EQUAL here. Out



"Ronald Reagan was widely hated and yet won peace through strength." Yeah, in the mastabatory hysteria that wound its way in line around the Capitol last June, I'm sure that cry was frequently uttered before the worshippers came . . . into the Rotunda (to view the RRemains). Among the unenchanted (or unaroused) it's a different story (though too long for a Fox News bite).

[sam7777]

Personally, I don't see how treating the rest of the world like shit helps the US.



darkmagicwillow: Loved your Simpson's rebuttal.



I remember watching Fahrenheit 9/11 where the crazy woman in the tent was arguing with the Bush supporter. I couldn't help but think that you have to be a crazy woman living in a tent in front of the White House to want to try to reason with those folks. I'd rather preach to the unconverted and get a few more votes against Bush.



And good golly Miss Molly, Republicans can be violent too:

Young Republican Kicks Female Protester

with video to boot.



----more of the lighter side of politics ---

Political Jokes Archive

Quote:

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Republican National Convention Schedule



New York, NY



6:00 PM Opening Prayer, led by the Rev. Jerry Falwell

6:30 PM Pledge of Allegiance

6:35 PM Burning of Bill of Rights (excluding 2nd amendment)

6:45 PM Salute to the Coalition of the Willing

6:46 PM Seminar #1: Getting your kid a military deferment

7:30 PM First Presidential Beer Bong

7:35 PM Serve Freedom Fries

7:40 PM EPA Address #1: Mercury, it's what's for dinner

8:00 PM Vote on which country to invade next

8:10 PM Call EMTs to revive Rush Limbaugh

8:15 PM John Ashcroft Lecture: The Homos are after your children

8:30 PM Roundtable discussion on reproductive rights (MEN only)

8:50 PM Seminar #2: Corporations: the government of the future

9:00 PM Condi Rice sings "I Can't Help Lovin' Dat Man"

9:05 PM Second Presidential Beer Bong

9:10 PM EPA Address #2 Trees: the real cause of forest fires

9:30 PM Break for secret meetings

10:00 PM Second prayer, led by Cal Thomas

10:15 PM Lecture by Karl Rove: Doublespeak made easy

10:30 PM Rumsfeld demonstration: How to squint and talk macho

10:35 PM Bush demonstration of trademark deer-in-headlights stare

10:40 PM John Ashcroft demonstrates new mandatory Kevlar chastity belt

10:45 PM Clarence Thomas reads list of black Republicans

10:46 PM Third Presidential Beer Bong

10:50 PM Seminar #3: Education: a drain on our nation's economy

11:10 PM Hilary Clinton Pinata

11:20 PM Second John Ashcroft Lecture: Evolutionists: the dangerous new cult

11:30 PM Call EMTs to revive Rush Limbaugh again

11:35 PM Blame Clinton

11:40 PM Laura serves milk and cookies

11:50 PM Closing Prayer, led by Jesus Himself

12:00 AM Nomination of George W. Bush as Holy Supreme Planetary Overlord

---

And

Quote:

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Bumper Stickers for the Bush 2004 Campaign



Bush/Cheney '04: Four More Wars



Bush/Cheney '04: Leave No Billionaire Behind



Bush/Cheney '04: Deja-Voodoo All Over Again!



Bush/Cheney '04: Compassionate Colonialism



Bush/Cheney '04: Because the Truth Just Isn't Good Enough



Bush/Cheney '04: Making the World a Better Place, One Country at a Time



Bush/Cheney '04: Over a Billion Whoppers Served.



Bush/Cheney '04: Putting the "Con" in Conservative



Bush/Cheney '04: Thanks for Not Paying Attention.



Bush/Cheney '04: The Last Vote You'll Ever Have to Cast



Bush/Cheney: Asses of Evil



Bush/Cheney '04: We're Gooder!



Bush/Cheney '04: This Time, Elect Us!



George W. Bush: The Buck Stops Over There



George W. Bush: A Brainwave Away from the Presidency



Don't think. Vote Bush!



More Trees, Less Bush



It Takes a Village Idiot



One Person, One Vote (*May Not Apply in Certain States)



Bring Back Monica Lewinsky

---

And now for the republican anti-gay hits. Remember these great tunes:

Republican anti-gay speaker compares gays to Hitler

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When defending her comparison of Gay and Lesbians to Adolph Hitler, Drew simply stated that “it may seem a bit extreme to imply a comparison between the atrocities of Hitler and what is happening in terms of contemporary threats against the family—but maybe not.”

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EzCode Parsing Error:=When defending her comparison of Gay and Lesbians to Adolph Hitler, Drew simply stated that “it may seem a bit extreme to imply a comparison between the atrocities of Hitler and what is happening in terms of contemporary threats against the family—but maybe not.”]Keyes' gay slam roils GOP[

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"In a homosexual relationship, there is nothing implied except the self-fulfillment, contentment and satisfaction of the parties involved in the relationship," said Keyes, who holds a Ph.D from Harvard University. "That means it is a self-centered, self-fulfilling, selfish relationship that seeks to use the organs intended for procreation for purposes of pleasure. The word pleasure in Greek is hedone and we get the word hedonism from that word."

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DeMint: Gays should not teach

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DeMint, a Greenville congressman, said the government should not endorse homosexuality and “folks teaching in school need to represent our values.”

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And just give us four more years of Bush and we can have even more.

Edited by: sam7777  at: 10/20/04 10:04 pm

[4WiccanLuv]

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You blame the Democrats for the actions of a foreign newspaper and foreign people? Wow.

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No, Democrats here, like-minded people elsewhere.



I would never write to someone abroad and tell them how they should vote because I dislike their leader. It’s arrogant and wrong headed. Foreigners oppose Bush and his policies, which is fine and dandy, but they do not live here. They cannot presume to understand what other everyday issues the common American voter faces.



What governments do is another matter entirely. BTW, I did recognize some of those leaders….dictators, despots, thugs, lovely. Regardless, all countries engage in covert activities in accordance to their national interests. I’m certain every Nation has a list just as long.

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Now, I'm a socialist and all, and I have a hard time understanding what someone can have against socialism. What is it specifically you fear? Is it the free healthcare available to any human being? Is it the assurance that nobody lives in poverty? The ability of everybody to get the education they want? Please clarify what it is you fear.

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I have no problem whatsoever with people attaining all those things you mention, so long as they earn them through work. Socialism tells me that I am too weak to provide for myself, therefore, I need “Big Daddy” Government take care of me. No thanks, less is more!

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And what? We're not over in Iraq and Afghanistan influencing their elections by having our own hand-picked "advisors" and policemen in place? One word: Blinders. Not unexpected, mind you.

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Wow, millions voting in Afghanistan, more than half of them women voting for the first time ever. Yeah, maybe we should have left them to the Taliban. Unbelievable!

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Bush who blatantly lied about our reasons for going to war with a country that was NOT involved in 9-11 (did you actually read the 9-11 Commission Report?) only to admit to that under duress. Sure he stands by his decision; he has no choice. It was a colossal blunder and he STILL has not found the man behind 9-11!

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I am so tired of this “blatantly lied” B.S. He was given intelligence, he acted on it, accordingly. If he lied, so did Clinton, Kerry and Edwards, among other politicians and world leaders who were equally convinced that WMDs existed and publicly stated it as fact.



Besides, are you going to tell me that Saddam had no ties to terrorism whatsoever? Which BTW, we’re in a war against terrorism, not Osama bin Laden alone. Are you also going to tell me that we created all of these terrorists in Iraq now? I suppose they were running flower shops or selling cars in Syria, Jordan and Palestine before they headed to Iraq and began beheading and killing people in the name of Allah.

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And I reiterate JM's question to you: What's wrong with socialism? Nothing. France and Canada have embraced socialist values and have been quite successful in that effort.

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You’re right, nothing, if you’re in Canada or France, but we are not. I’m surprised at this question, you being a Libertarian and all. Socialism reduces individual rights.

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They don't have to like us, true enough. But we should, at least, be concerned as to whether or not we deserve their respect. We used to have that. Not anymore.

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The reverse could be asked. Do they deserve ours? And “who’s” respect would you like, BTW?

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On the topic of European versus american values I remembered this little satire (it's already a couple of years old, I believe)

It shows pretty well why we prefer our socialism.

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Read in response if you like.

American values vs. European values

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I still don't see how you can reconcile his anti-gay views as a gay person

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I’ve said before, “gay marriage” is a non-issue for me. Being gay does not define me, although my gf loves my being gay.

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I hope that enough other people vote against our oppressors.

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I, for one, do not feel oppressed, I’m sorry that you do. Perhaps I might feel oppressed if I were living in some Middle Eastern country though, where I couldn’t vote, go to school, couldn’t travel, wear a burqua or have sex without getting stoned to death.

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I don't particularly care if America is globally liked or not either. I just wish that when destroying it's international image, America would stop dragging Britain down with it.

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That is something you probably need to address with your government. I hear elections will take place soon. I do hope Tony Blair remains in power though, I like him. Really wish Bush was as eloquent.

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This is all so confusing. Democrats say the media is biased in favour of the Republicans, while Republicans say it's biased in favour of the Democrats, who's right? Or maybe this is an example of quantum mechanics, and where you see bias depends on how you observe the system.

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True, I guess it depends on which side you’re observing from. But to further argue my case, here’s a quote today from ABC News Anchorman, Peter Jennings, “I’m a little concerned about this notion everybody wants us to be objective.”



Silly me, I thought “objectivity” was a serious journalist’s creed. The days of fact reporting without partisan slant are gone by the wayside.

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This strikes me as being a curious statement. The office of the Presidency is just a job, how do you have respect for a job title. Surely you have respect for people, and that should be dependant on their actions, not their job.

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Not really, I guess what it comes down to is that I’m a nationalist, a flag waiver, proud, etc… To me, the person who holds the highest office in our land deserves some modicum of respect.

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Being an insulated white girl from the suburbs, I used to wonder if voter intimidation was actually still an issue, too. But now that I live and work in an urban area with many minorities, I KNOW it is true.



And it's sad. And it's un-American.

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I agree that voter suppression and fraud is un-American and should be stopped. Those responsible should also be prosecuted and punished. But the story you just told about the flyers has been circulating on the internet for years. Rumor has it that 1 million Black votes were suppressed in 2000. These are serious charges that to date remain unproven. Regardless, John Kerry has stated these rumors as fact several times throughout his campaign and IMO, it is merely a fear tactic being used by the Dems in order to mobilize voters.

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Remember posting on the kitten Board doesn't make you a kitten, keeping in the spirit of the board makes you a kitten.

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Oh right, I guess I didn't read the part where we can't have differing political POVs. Very inclusive.

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And good golly Miss Molly, Republicans can be violent too:

Young Republican Kicks Female Protester

with video to boot.

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Never claimed it doesn’t happen, there are clearly idiots on both sides….Peaceful Activists?



***



Listen people, obviously my opinions and beliefs are polar opposite to most here and are apparently offensive to some or don't keep within the "Kitten" spirit. So I’ll bow out and leave you to your regularly scheduled Bush bashing.

"Those are my principles. If you don't like them I have others." - Groucho Marx

[darkmagicwillow]

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I am so tired of this “blatantly lied” B.S. He was given intelligence, he acted on it, accordingly.

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That would be fine if that's how events played out, but it's not. Bush decided to attack Iraq before 9/11, then after 9/11 he sent Cheney to the CIA to cherry pick worst case scenarios. Intelligence reports are rarely as simple as Saddam Hussein has 5 WMDs. Instead, they give best, worst, and most likely scenarios based on their limited knowledge. The Bush administration picked all the worst case scenarios and used data that their own intelligence agencies told them was likely fake (the yellow cake document) to support their already made decision to go to war. The lies were actually fairly cleverly presented, as long as they kept knowledge of how they came up with their data suppressed, but now we know how they did it and there's no longer any reason to believe what you claim above.

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

[Willowlicious]

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But the story you just told about the flyers has been circulating on the internet for years.

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Wait a second, the flyer "story" I posted is not just a "story," rather it is fact. Are you suggesting that I just dusted off an old urban myth, changed a few facts and tried to pass it off as the truth? You're ignoring the fact that I witnessed this. I **personally** saw the flyer on Monday, October 18, 2004, in Warren, Michigan at about 5:40 p.m. I have **personally** seen other flyers handed out over the years. I have also **personally** seen voters questioned outside a polling place about whether their taxes were paid.



If you choose not to believe voter intimidation is a problem, fine, but please don't suggest I'm just making this stuff up. It's insulting.



Amy

Edited by: Willowlicious at: 10/21/04 8:18 am

[Jimmi Magnus]

4WL, differences of oppinion there will always be. I, for instance, believe that it's every persons responsibility to help their fellow human beings, you don't. That's why I call myself socialist, you do not. Ok, that's just a difference of oppinion. I disagree with many of your points, but some statements you have made I just find untrue. And oppinions based on untrue assumptions is (in my mind) not valid oppinions.

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Socialism reduces individual rights.

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Is an untrue statement, that I believe is made more because of some preconcieved notion than because of facts.



In my last post I linked to the Constitution of the United States of America. That constitution does not grant you the right to vote. The Constitution of the Kingdom of Denmark grants every resident citizen of legal age the right to vote (chapter 4, paragraph 28, article 1).



As for rights that american citizens have, the american second ammendment right to bear arms, is one I do not, as a danish citizen, have. Also, I do not have the right to recruit people for an organisation by the use of discrimination and hate rethorics gainst any particular group based on gender, religion, race or sexual orientation.



Ok, so by comparison between my socialist-democracy, and your capitalist-democracy, we both have rights the other side don't.



Now, is your statement true? I mean, you can go buy a gun, yes you have that right, I don't. I, on the other hand, have a right to vote.



To VOTE



You know, the most basic thing in a democracy.



So, I don't believe that the quoted statement is true. If you have evidence/statements to back up your point of view, please feel free to provide them. I'm not too proud to acknowledge when I'm proven wrong.

Du skal ha lussinger i takt til musikken

[The Partisan]

19th. Amendment

to the U.S. Constitution







--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of sex. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.



--



There are other amendments regarding voting as well, but I gather it's a moot point because it's dawned on me that this isn't a thread for discussing politics, it's a hate-filled forums where the denizens proclaim their tolerance then try to tear to shreds anyone who doesn't tow the party line.



I've seen hints of it before; the shabby treatment of 4WL confirmed it.



I'm out. For good.

Edited by: The Partisan at: 10/21/04 7:52 am

[Kieli]

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Regardless, all countries engage in covert activities in accordance to their national interests. I’m certain every Nation has a list just as long.

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True but apparently we like to think that WE don't....everyone else does and we're better than that and all that sort of rubbish. Sanctimony at its best.

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I have no problem whatsoever with people attaining all those things you mention, so long as they earn them through work. Socialism tells me that I am too weak to provide for myself, therefore, I need “Big Daddy” Government take care of me. No thanks, less is more!

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I hate to tell you this, but there are MILLIONS of Americans who work their asses off and STILL don't have access to the basics: basic healthcare, basic subsistence, etc. Capitalism seems to breed this tendency to take advantage of your workers for monetary gain. If the government doesn't help out, what happens to those who are too poor to get the basics? Granted, there are those would take advantage of the system. However, I believe a blend of socialism/capitalism would do far more good than harm. And I ask again, what are you afraid of? If I'm not mistaken, socialist countries don't force anything on you; you can refuse government help, you know (it's not like, say, communism where one had few choices). BTW, I never said I was Libertarian. If you read more closely, I said I am a registered Democrat who has Libertarian leanings...that does not imply that I subscribe to all of either or both party's views. Some, my dear, merely some. Moderate and all that.

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Wow, millions voting in Afghanistan, more than half of them women voting for the first time ever. Yeah, maybe we should have left them to the Taliban. Unbelievable!

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Hmm, millions voting in an election that is still rigged and prone to tribal politics. Apparently, we taught them too well And don't kid yourself, the Taliban is still alive, well and slowly but surely taking back their country. We simply do not have the resources to keep that from happening again.

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I am so tired of this “blatantly lied” B.S. He was given intelligence, he acted on it, accordingly. If he lied, so did Clinton, Kerry and Edwards, among other politicians and world leaders who were equally convinced that WMDs existed and publicly stated it as fact.

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Um, he and Cheney admitted to fudging the truth, with/without their limited intelligence (hmm....I won't go there...this is the president who disdains education and educated people). It's not B.S. although I'm sure it makes you feel better to think so. All politicians lie; it's the nature of politics. But when their lies produce very drastic results, it's no longer acceptable.

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Besides, are you going to tell me that Saddam had no ties to terrorism whatsoever? Which BTW, we’re in a war against terrorism, not Osama bin Laden alone. Are you also going to tell me that we created all of these terrorists in Iraq now? I suppose they were running flower shops or selling cars in Syria, Jordan and Palestine before they headed to Iraq and began beheading and killing people in the name of Allah.

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We do NOT have the right to just blatantly walk into countries to fight "terrorism" unless they invite us. We need to do that fight on our own soil and keep terrorists from coming to OUR country. So they breed in other countries...that's bound to happen and not just in the Middle East. So, we should go to war with the world because they have terrorists that hate us? Please. You do realise that one of the reasons why the US is targeted so often is due to our blatant disregard for other nations, right? We most certainly had a hand in fostering the conditions that breed terrorism. Our war against terrorism seems to only be truly focused on Iraq. To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if Osama was kickin' back at Crawford Ranch, smoking a Cohiba and drinking a glass of Cuervo.

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Not really, I guess what it comes down to is that I’m a nationalist, a flag waiver, proud, etc… To me, the person who holds the highest office in our land deserves some modicum of respect.

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I'm a devout American too but I won't blindly give my respect to just any politician, especially the president. He/she has to earn it. Thus far, Bush hasn't earned it. To be fair, neither has Kerry but if faced with voting for the lesser of two evils, Kerry is it.

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I’ve said before, “gay marriage” is a non-issue for me. Being gay does not define me, although my gf loves my being gay.

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I agree with this to a point. It's not so much gay marriage as the right for gays to enter into a partnership and have the same rights as heterosexuals (i.e. shared medical benefits, the right to adopt each others children, etc). Apparently you're happy staying in the closet and with the meager rights gays have now. Good for you. The rest of us want more than that.

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Oh right, I guess I didn't read the part where we can't have differing political POVs. Very inclusive.

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I think that you're missing the point. You've not really given cogent arguments or facts as to why your view is different other than you think the Dems are whacko. Point taken. But to ignore the fact that Republicans' tactics are just as extreme is having tunnel vision. You know you're a Republican but are not quite sure why other than you think the Dems are embarrasing you with all of this talk of gay rights, voter fraud and getting us out of Iraq. I don't see you signing up to go fight the war on terrorism. It's so much easier to say "Let's go to war!" when we're not the ones doing the bleeding, fighting and dying; when we're not the ones losing fathers, brothers, sisters and mothers. I won't condone a war that has no clear cut goals, no foreseeable end and NO REAL PROOF that it was necessary. We need to fight our own battles on our own turf and not someone else's.



TP: Its a shame that you don't know the difference between hate speech and arguing passionately for your views. 4WL is being asked to clarify and has made some very untrue statements. If that's hate speech then I'm Dubya's long lost love child

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The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of sex. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

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The 19th amendment only protects the voters rights based on gender. It says nothing about race, sexual orientation nor socioeconomic status. Amendment 24 protects voters' rights based on age. Amendment 15 protects voters' rights based on race. However, nowhere in the Constitution is the right to vote specifically stated as a given for ALL. The Constitution only specifically mentions the right to vote in regards to electoral votes (for legislative branch and executive branch) age, race and gender discrimination. One could argue that all other factors are not supported by the Constitution (i.e. the institution of the popular vote, for instance). Only the 17th Amendment addresses the use of the popular vote fas well as the electoral vote for the Senate.

Time flies by when the Devil drives.
It's not the pace of life that concerns me, it's the sudden stop at the end.

Edited by: Kieli at: 10/21/04 8:47 am