The Politics Thread - Read the First Post

[Diebrock]

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One could consider both creationism and evolutionism but its like comparing apples to oranges.

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Isn't it more like comparing apples with a fruit (you have been taught grows in a far away land) which you (or anyone else) have never seen personally and the only "credible" info you have about it comes from a millenia old discription?



Or was that what you meant and oranges was only much more economical.

_________________

Independence is my happiness, and I view things as they are, without regard to place or person; my country is the world, and my religion is to do good.

I've kissed her best friend. I've reached into her best friend's pocket and fished around for keys. And I gave her best friend my number. I must be doing something totally, totally wrong... - TBSOL by Dreams

[Hemiola]

darkmagicwillow and Kieli : many thanks for the corrections and additional info



maudmac : that's a good one!

[sam7777]

Another theary may well come along to replace Evolution but Creationism as a religious theory cannot replace a scientific theary.



Diebrock: LOL. Excellent analogy.

_____________________

I still see dead lesbian cliches

[justin]

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Another theary may well come along to replace Evolution but Creationism as a religious theory cannot replace a scientific theary.

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Since this is the point I was making, I'm growing confused over what exactly we were disagreeing over.



In other news France is trying to strengthen relationships with America.



According to bbc news

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France seeks to rescue US ties

George Bush and Jacques Chirac

The personal relationship between Bush and Chirac has deteriorated

French Foreign Minister Michel Barnier has appealed for an end to "French-bashing" in the US and urged co-operation between the two countries.



In a Wall Street Journal article called "Letter to America", Mr Barnier said France and the US shared ideals of prosperity, peace and freedom.



The letter comes days after US President George W Bush's re-election.



Relations between the two countries have been strained, mainly because of differences over the Iraq war.



Mr Barnier's article appeared to reflect hopes expressed in Paris that Mr Bush's re-election would lead to the relationship between Paris and Washington being re-invigorated.



He called for the creation of a high-level group of independent figures from both sides to explore ways to deepen political co-operation across the Atlantic.



'Paradox'



But he wrote that he was worried that France and Europe in general were misunderstood, if not scorned, in the US.



"Because of all the things that connect us, I'm concerned about the campaigns against my country, and the recent surge of 'French-bashing'," he said.



"There's a paradox here, since France is actually among your best friends in the fight against terrorism."



"In the end, the most inaccurate cliches are obscuring the most obvious truths. It is time to put a stop to it."



Mr Barnier cited co-operation within Nato in Afghanistan and Kosovo, and also evoked the spirit of D-Day. Mr Bush came to France to celebrate the 60th anniversary of the World War II Normandy invasion in June.



But he acknowledged that the Iraq had deeply divided the two countries.



He said France would not send troops but was prepared to help train Iraqi security services and resolve Iraq's debt problem.

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It'll be interesting to see if the Bush administration does do anything about the French bashing that has grown up in America.

--

Homer Simpson: When will people learn, democracy just doesn't work.

[Diebrock]

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...and resolve Iraq's debt problem.

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If that is such a serious problem and France, Russia, Germany and I don't know how many others are being asked for debt relief by the US, how do they justify this: link

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Reparations in Reverse

by Naomi Klein



Next week, something will happen that will unmask the upside-down morality of the invasion and occupation of Iraq. On October 21, Iraq will pay $200-million in war reparations to some of the richest countries and corporations in the world.



If that seems backwards, it’s because it is. Iraqis have never been awarded reparations for any of the crimes they have suffered under Saddam, or the brutal sanctions regime that claimed the lives of at least half a million people, or the U.S.-led invasion, which United Nations Secretary-General Kofi Anan recently called “illegal.” Instead, Iraqis are still being forced to pay reparations for crimes committed by their former dictator.



Quite apart from its crushing $125-billion sovereign debt, Iraq has paid $18.8-billion in reparations stemming from Saddam Hussein’s 1990 invasion and occupation of Kuwait. This is not in itself surprising: as a condition of the ceasefire that ended the 1991 Gulf War, Saddam agreed to pay damages stemming from the invasion. More than fifty countries have made claims, with most of the money awarded to Kuwait. What is surprising is that even after Saddam was overthrown, the payments from Iraq have continued.



Since Saddam was toppled in April, Iraq has paid out $1.8-billion in reparations to the United Nations Compensation Commission (UNCC), the Geneva-based quasi tribunal that assesses claims and disburses awards. Of those payments, $37-million have gone to Britain and $32.8-million have gone to the United States. That’s right: in the past 18 months, Iraq’s occupiers have collected $69.8-million in reparation payments from the desperate people they have been occupying. But it gets worse: the vast majority of those payments—78 per cent—have gone to multinational corporations, according to statistics on the UNCC website.



Away from media scrutiny, this has been going on for years. Of course there are many legitimate claims for losses that have come before the UNCC: payments have gone to Kuwaitis who have lost loved ones, limbs, and property to Saddam’s forces. But much larger awards have gone to corporations—of the total amount the UNCC has awarded in Gulf War reparations, $21.5-billion has gone to the oil industry alone. Jean-Claude Aimé, the UN diplomat who headed the UNCC until December 2000, publicly questioned the practice. “This is the first time as far as I know that the UN is engaged in retrieving lost corporate assets and profits,” he told the Wall Street Journal in 1997, and then mused: “I often wonder at the correctness of that.”



But the UNCC’s corporate handouts only accelerated. Here is a small sample of who has been getting “reparation” awards from Iraq: Halliburton ($18-million), Bechtel ($7-million), Mobil ($2.3-million), Shell ($1.6-million), Nestle ($2.6-million), Pepsi ($3.8-million), Philip Morris ($1.3-million), Sheraton ($11-million), Kentucky Fried Chicken ($321-thousand) and Toys R Us ($189,449). In the vast majority of cases, these corporations did not claim that Saddam’s forces damaged their property in Kuwait—only that they “lost profits” or, in the case of American Express, experienced a “decline in business,” because of the invasion and occupation of Kuwait. One of the biggest winners has been Texaco, which was awarded $505-million in 1999. According to a UNCC spokesperson, only 12 per cent of that reparation award has been paid, which means hundreds of millions more will have to come out of the coffers of post-Saddam Iraq.



The fact that Iraqis have been paying reparations to their occupiers is all the more shocking in the context of how little these countries have actually spent on aid in Iraq. Despite the $18.4-billion of U.S. tax dollars allocated for Iraq’s reconstruction, the Washington Post estimates that only $29-million has been spent on water, sanitation, health, roads, bridges, and public safety—combined. And in July (the latest figure available), the Department of Defense estimated that only $4 million had been spent compensating Iraqis who had been injured, or who lost family members or property as a direct result of the occupation—a fraction of what the U.S. has collected from Iraq in reparations since its occupation began.



For years there have been complaints about the UNCC being used as a slush fund for multinationals and rich oil emirates—a backdoor way for corporations to collect the money they were prevented from making as a result of the sanctions against Iraq. During the Saddam years, these concerns received little attention, for obvious reasons.



But now Saddam is gone and the slush fund survives. And every dollar sent to Geneva is a dollar not spent on humanitarian aid and reconstruction Iraq. Furthermore, if post-Saddam Iraq had not been forced to pay these reparations, it could have avoided the $437-million emergency loan that the International Monetary Fund approved on September 29. With all the talk of forgiving Iraq’s debts, the country is actually being pushed deeper into the hole, forced to borrow money from the IMF, and to accept all of the conditions and restrictions that come along with those loans. The UNCC, meanwhile, continues to assess claims and make new awards: $377-million worth of new claims were awarded last month alone.



Fortunately, there is a simple way to put an end to these grotesque corporate subsidies. According to United Nations Security Council Resolution 687, which created the reparations program, payments from Iraq must take “into account the requirements of the people of Iraq, Iraq’s payment capacity and the needs of the Iraqi economy.” If a single one of the three were genuinely taken into account, the Security Council would vote to put an end to these payouts tomorrow.



That is the demand of Jubilee Iraq, a debt relief organization out of London. Reparations are owed to the victims of Saddam Hussein, the group argues—both in Iraq and in Kuwait. But the people of Iraq, who were themselves Saddam’s primary victims, should not be paying them. Instead, reparations should be the responsibility of the governments that loaned billions to Saddam, knowing the money was being spent on weapons so he could wage war on his neighbours and his own people. “If justice and not power prevailed in international affairs then Saddam’s creditors would be paying reparations to Kuwait as well as far greater reparations to the Iraqi people,” says Justin Alexander, coordinator of Jubilee Iraq.



Right now precisely the opposite is happening: instead of flowing into Iraq, reparations are flowing out. It’s time for the tide to turn.

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_________________

Independence is my happiness, and I view things as they are, without regard to place or person; my country is the world, and my religion is to do good.

I've kissed her best friend. I've reached into her best friend's pocket and fished around for keys. And I gave her best friend my number. I must be doing something totally, totally wrong... - TBSOL by Dreams

[Kieli]

*sigh* What am I gonna do with you Diebrock? I know you do this to give me a hard time....it's all good, paybacks are hell, to be sure I know you know what I meant, my dear. If you want me to 'splain it, I will

Time flies by when the Devil drives.
It's not the pace of life that concerns me, it's the sudden stop at the end.

[Hemiola]

sam777: here I go again No theory can "replace" evolution--evolution is a fact. Is it possible that a new and/or revised theory could replace natural selection? Well...nothing is impossible, but let's just say it's not likely.



justin: Why should we be surprised that this administration likes to bash, mock, and otherwise denigrate France and the French. The French have a highly developed intellectual tradition, and there's nothin' Dubya hates more than an "intellectual fancypants" (cf. Woodward's book on Bush for his use of this term ). Of course, far be it from Dubya to pay any attention to the fact that France was the first of our allies--the United States would not exist without the aid provided by the French troups under Rochambeau and the French fleet commanded by Admiral De Grasse. It would have been necessary for Dubya to read some history books in order for him to know these things, and we all know how he feels about readin'......

[maudmac]

If someone wrote My Pet Intellectual Fancypants, he might read that, especially if his country is being attacked at that moment.

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make some room now dig what you see

[TemperedCynic]

Heminola:

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No theory can "replace" evolution--evolution is a fact.

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Fact or not, conservatives tend to ignore anything that is not part of their belief set. Just like "neocons" can ignore the NY Times or CNN because they are perceived as 'biased' to the left (which is a crock, btw). Conservatives and evangelicals will do what they are told, like all good little lemmings, and they will vote in Creationism because they have the power to do so.



As for "intellectual fancypants" – Bush has always kept intellectuals in line by denigrating them – his name-calling both in college and in the White House are perfect examples. This is to keep France on the defensive, just where Bush wants ‘em. Is Bush a moron? I’d now have to re-consider that – anyone who can convince Texas that he was like a native son has got some smarts somewhere. I’d hate to think we underestimated the little troglodyte.

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More than any other time in history, mankind faces a crossroads. One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness. The other, to total extinction. Let us pray we have the wisdom to choose correctly. Woody Allen (1935 - )

[sam7777]

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"Another theory may well come along to replace Evolution but Creationism as a religious theory cannot replace a scientific theory."



Since this is the point I was making, I'm growing confused over what exactly we were disagreeing over.

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Justin: Um I've lost track of the evolution vs creationism thread but I don't think I meant that last statement to repudiate you. Agree to agree.



I was meaning to address Evolution is fact. I think that Evolution is still a "theory" in the sense of the dictionary meaning: "A set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts or phenomena, especially one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely accepted and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena." Evolution is a qwell established theary that can now be taken as fact. Any follow on theories will be adding to Evolution not replacing it.



As for the intellectuals thing. I can't see how anyone can be proud to be ignorant, uniformed and bigotted. Bush is a twit.

[Triscuit7]

Except he wouldn't know the word "twit"... he'd think you were calling him something else entirely.



Ciao, Melissa

******************



Do something totally irrational and let the enemy think himself to death. (Pyanfar Chanur)

[TemperedCynic]

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Except he wouldn't know the word "twit"... he'd think you were calling him something else entirely.

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And, it would still be accurate!

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More than any other time in history, mankind faces a crossroads. One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness. The other, to total extinction. Let us pray we have the wisdom to choose correctly. Woody Allen (1935 - )

[justin]

Recently when reading the bbc website I got a good reminder of why it's a good thing the Conservatives don't stand a chance of getting re-ellected in the next general election.



From news.bbc.co.uk

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Tories unveil tax cutting options



Oliver Letwin says it's time for a change of direction on tax

The Tories are considering a plan to take more than a million people out of the higher tax rate.



The level at which workers begin paying a 40p tax rate would jump from £36,000 to £40,800, under one of a range of tax options unveiled on Tuesday.



If Shadow Chancellor Oliver Letwin gave the go ahead the proposal would save higher earners up to £800.



The proposal, estimated to cost £2.6bn, is one of five options in the Tories' consultation paper and is not policy.



The Conservatives plan eight tax consultation papers over the coming months focusing on what the Tories say is an unfair and over-complicated taxation system.       



Mr Letwin said: "Tony Blair claimed that he had no plans to raise taxes at all. That was all talk.



"By stealthily raising [tax rate] thresholds more slowly than the increase in earnings, Tony Blair has dragged 4.2m more people into paying income tax and 1.35m more people into paying top rate income tax.



"Part time workers in the minimum wage are now paying tax, and deputy head teachers are paying top rate tax.



"A change of direction is needed to help people on lower incomes and people trapped in top rate tax."



'No guarantee'



For Labour, chief secretary to the Treasury Paul Boateng said the Tories had not made a firm commitment to tax cuts "because none of their sums added up".



"They cannot make their savings and so the only guaranteed cut you will get from the Conservatives is an immediate £20 billion cut in spending on vital public services such as schools and hospitals, defence, police and transport, and science and skills.''



Liberal Democrat Treasury spokesman Vincent Cable accused the Tories of spending expected savings from cutting waste and bureaucracy several times.



"It's obvious that the Conservative Party believe they can't win the next general election as they continue to make promises with money they don't have.



"Fairer taxation is a desirable aim but it is an empty promise unless clear costings of policies are published. This is something the Liberal Democrats have been happy to do."



'Menu of options'



Entitled Income Tax and National Insurance Thresholds - A New Direction, the Tory paper published on Tuesday, unveils five options which aim to create a low tax economy.



But the Conservatives are keen to stress that the options being unveiled do not "constitute any guarantee or promise" that a particular option would form part of a future Tory government's budget plans.



Instead they "represent a menu from which a Conservative government may draw when formulating budgets", the party said.



The options are:



# Indexing the personal allowance and the national insurance threshold to earnings rather that prices. This the Tories say would stabilise the number of people paying income tax and national insurance.



# Raise personal allowances and the national insurance threshold to the point where someone on the minimum wage, working 20 hours a week becomes exempt from paying national insurance and income tax. This would mean only those earning more than £5,058 would pay income tax and national insurance, the Tories say.



# Fix the income tax personal allowance and national insurance so that the same proportion of people pay it as did in 1997. This, the Tories say, mean only those with incomes over £5,318 would pay income tax and national insurance.



# Index the base rate limit to earnings rather than prices. The Tories say this would stabilise the number of people paying coming tax at the higher rate.



# Fix the income tax basic rate limit so that the same proportion of people are paying top rate tax as in 1997. Hundreds of thousands of people would be taken out of the 40% income tax band as a result, the Tories say, with only those on £40,764 or more a year paying the top rate.

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The main plan seems to be to raise the boundary between standard and upper levels of income tax, which will mean people either no longer paying the upper level or paying it on a smaller part of their salary.



So this will save high level tax payers up to £800 a year, becuase obviously people earning that much need all the money they can get





It's going to cost £2.6 billion. The conservatives say they can save this through getting rid of waste, but that seems doubtful. Which means they'll either have to cut public spending or get the tax money else where, such as VAT. So it's the standard Tory policy of robbing from the poor to give to the rich.



Not that this is that much of a surprise. While the Tories were still in power John Major often said that he wanted to completely do away with income tax and get all tax revenue through VAT style tax. So it goes to show that a political party can't change it's spots.

--

Homer Simpson: When will people learn, democracy just doesn't work.

[Diebrock]

Kieli wrote:

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*sigh* What am I gonna do with you Diebrock?

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Anything you like.



Ah Kieli, I have the utmost respect for you. And most of the time I agree completely with your point of view. Unfortunately for you, that also translates into smart-ass remarks send your way now and then.



Then there is also the irresistible fact that my mother's maiden name is Kiel.

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Gonzales Is a Disastrous Choice



It didn't take long for President Bush to squander the opportunity provided by John Ashcroft's resignation as attorney general. Instead of replacing Ashcroft with someone of enough stature and independence to bolster the administration's commitment to the rule of law, Bush rushed to nominate his old confidant from Texas, White House counsel Alberto R. Gonzales. Gonzales should face little trouble being confirmed as the nation's first Latino attorney general, and that's a shame. He is a terrible choice.



Social conservatives are relieved to see Gonzales take over the Justice Department, if only because his perceived lack of passion for their agenda made him a worrisome potential Supreme Court candidate in their book. At least Gonzales has that going for him. But the role he played in orchestrating the war on terror from the White House counsel's office makes him a disastrous choice to lead the Justice Department.



Most notoriously, Gonzales wrote a memo in early 2002 arguing that suspected terrorists captured in Afghanistan were not subject to protections under the Geneva Convention. He called the convention's particulars "quaint," a disdain for international law that begat the Abu Ghraib prison scandal and charges of human rights abuses at Guantanamo Bay.



Congress has been demanding access to all of Gonzales' memos, but Ashcroft has predictably refused. The Senate should insist that the White House provide them, but we won't hold our breath. Still, it's worth considering whether someone who lacked the judgment to help his client, the president, avoid the torture scandals is temperamentally suited to be the nation's top prosecutor. To the rest of the world, appointing Gonzales attorney general is reminiscent of Bush's praise for Donald Rumsfeld's tenure at the Pentagon in the middle of the Abu Ghraib scandal.



Gonzales has also fostered the administration's culture of secrecy. For example, almost as soon as Bush entered office, Gonzales championed an executive order that altered the 1978 Presidential Records Act to severely restrict access to documents. Gonzales is a zealous proponent of the USA Patriot Act, which comes up for renewal in 2005.



Any Bush nominee, of course, is going to champion the Patriot Act, and Gonzales is likely to be approved. But he still represents the loss of a golden opportunity.

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_________________

Independence is my happiness, and I view things as they are, without regard to place or person; my country is the world, and my religion is to do good.

I've kissed her best friend. I've reached into her best friend's pocket and fished around for keys. And I gave her best friend my number. I must be doing something totally, totally wrong... - TBSOL by Dreams

Edited by: Diebrock at: 11/12/04 3:44 am

[BFR from Paris]

One thing for sure, we French people don't really feel welcome in the US... I recently talked about it with some of my friends, and we all agree that it's a shame because there are some American cities that we would love to visit!



Also, I read an article that pinpoints something interesting: even though the American culture is all over our screens, stores etc, we Europeans know very little (if nothing) about the Americans who reelected Bush... So in a way, the image that America gives of itself abroad is a fake one. Which explains why a lot of people here were surprised by the reelection of W (although our so-called "intellectual fancypants" did expect it )



Bonsoir!



Christine

[Kieli]

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Anything you like.



Ah Kieli, I have the utmost respect for you. And most of the time I agree completely with your point of view. Unfortunately for you, that also translates into smart-ass remarks send your way now and then.



Then there is also the irresistible fact that my mother's maiden name is Kiel.

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Well, the respect thing is mutual, my dear but can I just say, you're evil? And who would've thought that you could flirt?



I'm finding out all sorts of wild things about you. I'm waiting for you to tell me that you like Nutella and...*ahem* well you get the picture

Time flies by when the Devil drives.
It's not the pace of life that concerns me, it's the sudden stop at the end.

[Gatito Grande]

[Diebrock and Kieli are flirting: I guess the Apocalypse really is upon us!



BFR: we Americans have specialized in presenting bullsh*t images of ourselves for years---nuthin' new there (probably because our image-makers know that if the world got the real picture of us, our whole "Leader of the Free World, by God!" thang would go pfffft? )]



I was listening to Dubya today (not by choice, I assure you) in the press conference w/ his Tony-Poodle, and I realized something. For more than four years now, his whiny Here's Talking (Defensively!) Down at You tone has driven me nuts (e.g. speaking about Palestinians "Some people are suspicious! They say you can't have democracy in that part of the world!" {snark-whiiiiine-snark}). "Where have I heard that before?" I thought.



Today, I connected it . . . to this week's South Park. Dubya's been taking lessons from Cartman: "But Mo-oooooom!"



GG Although from everything we've learned about Dubya's twisted psyche, the tone probably arose in the form of "But Da-aaaaaad!" Out

[Kieli]

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Diebrock and Kieli are flirting: I guess the Apocalypse really is upon us!

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Hey now! I'm a perfectly innocent married woman I don't flirt....well...not really. See my halo? And I don't see that Prince of Darkness carrying off Bushwad so..it ain't the Apocalypse yet, sister

Time flies by when the Devil drives.
It's not the pace of life that concerns me, it's the sudden stop at the end.

[darkmagicwillow]

Also, I read an article that pinpoints something interesting: even though the American culture is all over our screens, stores etc, we Europeans know very little (if nothing) about the Americans who reelected Bush... So in a way, the image that America gives of itself abroad is a fake one.



The US is about the same size as Europe, so it's necessarily a diverse society in some ways. As for visiting the US, there seem to be two types of tourist attractions: the cultural centers in cities and the natural beauties of the national parks and similar wilderness areas. On the other hand, while visiting Europe, I travel to the major cities like Paris and Rome but also to the smaller towns like Amboise, Colmar, St Goar, Varenna, and so forth.



If you would visit American cities as you mentioned you'd like, you'd largely encounter Kerry supporters (see the map above) and you'd encounter a variety of tourists in the national parks, but notice what's left out: the rural areas, which largely voted for Bush and consist of about half of the US's population.

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"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

[Diebrock]

Kieli wrote:

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I'm waiting for you to tell me that you like Nutella and...*ahem* well you get the picture

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Why? Most people I know like it (Germans annihilate 50.000 tons of the stuff a year, just so that lots of other people don't have to suffer the temptation; we're such a noble bunch... ). Is there subtext to liking Nutella that I'm unaware of?

It probably wouldn't be a good idea then to tell you that about 1 meter to my right there is a small table (easily reachable with only a little leaning while sitting in front of the computer), on which stands a 400g glass containing...well, let's just say the lettering is red except for the first letter which is black, and on top of which lays a spoon.





GG wrote:

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[Diebrock and Kieli are flirting: I guess the Apocalypse really is upon us!

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And that from two atheists. And was there flirting? Must have just been my natural charm. I would never flirt with a married woman (though I refuse to use the words 'perfectly' and 'innocent' in this context )





Regarding America's image: I think it was always more the ideal of equality, freedom and democracy for which the US stood rather than the reality.

You have the the oldest democracy, yet a number of countries established true democracy earlier than the US when they allowed all citizens (including women) to vote. You have the great pioneer spirit but whose development went hand in hand with the genocide of the native people. You have (for the time) revolutionary founding documents that proclaim the inherent equality of all men, yet slavery (and later segregation) was okay. You get my meaning.



America puts up the ideal as if it were their living reality. The one thing that Bush really accomplished was to make the hypocrisy, the huge gap between ideal and reality, so blatantly obvious that most of the rest of the world recognized that the US wasn't up there; it was down here in the dirt with the rest of us.

Being the world's oldest still existing democracy means little when you can't make elections work without big problems; or talking big about freedom while enthusiastically embracing the patriot act and Guantanamo; preaching about human rights while factually legalizing torture and non-compliance with the Geneva Conventions; aggressive war on Iraq is good while Iraq's aggressive war on Kuweit was a crime; Saddam murdering 300,000 of his own people over a few decades are crimes against humanity but the US killing 100,000 Iraqis in about a year is just the prize you (they) have to pay for freedom and being saved from a brutal dictator and it's not as if civilians are deliberately targeted - they just seem to be everywhere...



There is nothing wrong with having ideals and working to bring reality closer to them (we will probably never achieve it completely). And there is nothing wrong with being proud of these defining ideals. But I get the feeling that the majority of Americans believe that they have already achieved it and furthermore that it's impossible to slide back, after all they live in the 'best country' (TM) in the world (and I include in this attitudes like the following also: Sure, things are fucked up here. But it's still far better than anywhere else). And given that about half of the American voting public explicitly voted to approve of and continue with Bush's policies (including the ones I ranted about above), and the 40 percent who didn't vote were obviously content with the course their country was on, you have a majority of about 70% who see no conflict between the 'American values', of which they are proud (the ideals I was talking about), and their country's behaviour.



So I'm not so sure if the image America presents abroad is to dupe the foreigners. Maybe it's just the same self-delusion they use for themselves?





I hope this was half-way coherent as I had real trouble trying to express my thoughts on this.

_________________

Independence is my happiness, and I view things as they are, without regard to place or person; my country is the world, and my religion is to do good.

I've kissed her best friend. I've reached into her best friend's pocket and fished around for keys. And I gave her best friend my number. I must be doing something totally, totally wrong... - TBSOL by Dreams

[Kieli]

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Is there subtext to liking Nutella that I'm unaware of?

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Ohh boy, I knew you were going to play innocent on me...just to get me to trap myself in innuendo and thus, trouble would ensue. You're getting good at this

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I would never flirt with a married woman (though I refuse to use the words 'perfectly' and 'innocent' in this context )

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Hey now!

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Regarding America's image: I think it was always more the ideal of equality, freedom and democracy for which the US stood rather than the reality.

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Agreed. What many Americans, I think, do not realise is that the U.S. was NEVER posited in our Constitution as a true democracy, but rather as a republic, which is a gemisch of three other types of government, as the definition shows:

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Republic is formed from two Latin words res (thing) and publica (public); it literally means 'the public thing(s)'. In the Latin context, it means 'affairs affecting the state', 'the state' itself, or 'the constitution' of the state".(1) The Latin word republic is similar in meaning to the Greek word politea. Both words constitute the meaning of state; the state being one that is made up of different classes of people and all involved in the governing of the polity under a constitution. Simply stated: a republic is a "mixed constitutional government".



A republic, in the classical form, is a type of government that is made up of a mixture of elements from three other types of government: monarchy, aristocracy, and democracy. There is the Spartan model which is a tri-political government of kings, gerousia (aristocracy) and Ephors (democratic body). There is the Roman model that has a civilian head, and an aristocratic body which is the Senate. It is marked by a bicameral legislative body (the upper house being aristocratic) and by a written constitution that marks out the duties and responsibilities of the different bodies. A classical republic is considered by its proponents to be the best compromise between the interests of the aristocracy (or of the wealthy elite) and those of the people.

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I often find that many of my fellow Americans seem to be of the misguided notion that we alone created democracy, freedom, yadda yadda yadda and that we alone are the most free country in the world. Delusional and quite uninformed. As you well note:

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So I'm not so sure if the image America presents abroad is to dupe the foreigners. Maybe it's just the same self-delusion they use for themselves?

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To be honest, I think that many of my fellow Americans are so used to the spin and hype our elected leaders put forth that they've just accepted it as truth and fact. I agree that this is the image put forth but I think it's both to dupe other nations as well as totally confuse and dupe the citizenry at home. When things are amiss within the governmental ranks, it's often the tactic to throw on the bloody cape of nationalism to distract people from the REAL issues. I'm a patriot as much as anyone else in my country. But I'll be damned if I will turn a blind eye to the hideous corruption and flagrant deception of our elected leaders (just the whole "elected" thing makes me shudder constantly) just to say that I am a loyal citizen. A loyal citizen, IMHO, works to ensure that EVERY citizen has their rights intact, holds their leaders accountable for questionable actions that may infringe on said rights and the rights of other nations and dammit, a loyal citizen remains informed above all else and investigates further when things just don't sound right. None of this passing the buck or choosing to remain blissfully ignorant to satisfy my religious sanctimony (thank heavens I am unencumbered with such nonsense) and questionable ethics (I leave out morality here b/c it's such a very personal thing and can be quite fluid, probably more so than personal ethics IMHO). I could rant for days but, yanno, I'm sure Diebrock would have to comment

Time flies by when the Devil drives.
It's not the pace of life that concerns me, it's the sudden stop at the end.

[thx1123]

I have been away for a long time.



For some reason the three cards i sent in to change my Georgia voter registration from Dekalb to Richmond county.



I horse traded to get a friend to drive me 150+ miles so I could vote.



The republican lady there tried to tell me I was not registered to vote in dekalb county.I knew that was not true becuase I called and made sure that I was registered in dekalb.I am not traveling 150+ miles for nothing.



I said fine maybe those nice people from the local cbs affilate would like to hear my story.refering to the newspeople who were doing person on the street interveiws outside.



she changed her story and found my registration lickety split.



then there was the redneck who came into my yard and removed my whoever you vote for just vote sign out of my yard.Either you supoport Bush or you are a panties wearing,commie pinko fag he let me know.



SinceI had a loaded shot gun trained on him while m friend called the police i let him know I found panties extremely comfy and any doubts I had about voting for Kerry he had just removed.



I am doing 2 yeras probation on a contributing to the deliuquency of minors charge for telling a young girl that it was not wrong fr her to be a lesbian.Her girl friends mother cuaght them in bed and pressed charges for statutory rape.The girl is 16 her GF is 15 .They claimed I inspired her to committ stautory rape.This guy comes into my yard and vandalizes my property and spray paints my parents house with anti gay and kerry slogans in the middle of the night and he gets a 25$ fine.



I cannot go to chat rooms becuase I cannot have undersuperised contact with minrs for telling a girl she is not evil becuase she is gay and this idiot gets a slap on te wrist and my parents are more cocerned my SO was there when they were gone than this idit trashed their place.



I told myself that conservatives are good folk but they see nothing wrong with this.



This bitch did not want me to vote becuase I was wearing a skirt and pink blouse and none f my conservative friends have a problem with this.It serves me right,they told me.This is what happens when you refuse to stay in the closet.



There may be good heated conservatives but there are not enough to counter the neocons.





I am heart sick.



I feel stupid,niave,used.



The venom I heaped upon you.



I need to say this to end.



GEORGE W BUSH MAKES POND SCUM LOOK EVOLVED





HILLARY IN 08

[3peanuts]

I really do think what we ALL need, and here an Italian speaks, is more EDUCATION!



Education: more structured ideas=more knowledge of the global problems=less tendency to be driven as stupid machines by people who know how to speak even if they aren't saying anything=a full capability to understand the implications and responsibility which come from the right to vote.



And more education means no room for prejudices and integralism to sink into public opinion. And i mean any kind of integralism.



But as long as we leave education between four walls and don't try to spread it, for example giving to everybody the right to study, giving to everybody the possibility to form a political idea of their own, it will be very hard for things to change.

"I like Amber Benson 'cause she's a proletarian" Sarabiga

Keynes was right

[Gatito Grande]

Tabby, honey:



There is much to be said for fighting to turn a Red State (or maybe Purple State) Blue.



You, on the other hand, need to get your queer arse outta Dodge, and go somewhere you are SAFE. Please?



GG In a week it'll be Transgender Day of Remembrance---we don't need to add to the list of our dead. Please, please: take care of yourself! To make change, Tabby, you need to BE HERE (alive and well) in order to make it. Out

[thx1123]

to be honest i cannot leave georgia right now.I have a choice between living with my neocon dad or being in a homeless shelter.



Even if I could leave I don't know if I would.





I have done so much damage.In 2000 campaigned for Bush.



I was a member of the NRA,Sons of the confederacy,citizens heritage council and even actively supported Fred Phelps in a vain attempt to deny who I am.I am a leftist gender queer.I could always find reasons why my gut feeling was wrong and the conservatives in my life were right.



I feel the need to redeem the evil I have done.What better place than Hephzibah Georgia,but believe me I am careful.



cannot support the NRA becuase of their oppisition to even common sense gun controls but I keep a shot gun loaded with rock salt.It won't kill but by time they pick themselves up they will be in police handcuffs.



The young girl who I am got in legal hot water over is one step.



She is fighting the statuary rape charges and has asked her aunt to let her live with her.She plans to sue to be made an emnicipated minor.



her aunt is straight but not narrow.



When I talked to her the first time she was compliplating suicide.Now she is fighting for the right to be herself.



You would not believe how idiotic georgia's sex laws are.



This girl stands to spend more time in kiddie jail becuase she comitted cunningluss to her GF than if she had been a male and penetrated the GF with a penis.



Contact between the mouth of a person and anyone 15 and unders gentials is aggravated criminal sodomy.So a 40 year old who put his penis in a 12 year old would be better off than a 16 year caaught eating her 15 year old girl friend.



No wonder Georgia went red,using the law to opress queers is a way of life.



Tabby

[Diebrock]

msnbc.msn.com

Quote:

---

Secretary of State Powell quitting;

will serve until successor is OK'd

Resignation was submitted Friday to Bush

Secretary of State Colin Powell attends a meeting last week at the Mexican Foreign Ministry in Mexico City.

NBC News and news services

Updated: 12:13 p.m. ET Nov. 15, 2004WASHINGTON - Colin Powell has submitted his resignation as secretary of state, joining at least five other Cabinet members in planning to depart either prior to or early in President Bush’s second term, the White House confirmed Monday.





"I believe that now that the election is over the time has come for me to step down as Secretary of State and return to private life," Powell said in a resignation letter released by the White House.



Aides said the 67-year-old Powell told his senior staff early Monday that that he had submitted his resignation on Friday. He plans to stay on until a successor is confirmed, they said.



Powell's resignation was one of four departures from the 15-member Bush Cabinet announced by the White House on Monday. The others are Agriculture Secretary Ann Veneman, Education Secretary Rod Paige and Energy Secretary Spencer Abraham.



White House spokesman Scott McClellan said that no replacements for the departing Cabinet members would be announced Monday.



Attorney General John Ashcroft and Commerce Secretary Don Evans announced their resignations last week. Bush has so far moved to fill just one vacancy, naming White House counsel Alberto Gonzales to succeed Ashcroft.



Rice seen as leading candidate

Republican sources told Reuters that national security adviser Condoleezza Rice emerged as the likely candidate Monday to replace Powell.



Rice has been President Bush's national security adviser since Bush took office in January 2001 and has been one of his closest confidantes. She was previously the provost of Stanford University.



U.N. Ambassador John Danforth, a Republican and former U.S. senator from Missouri, also has been mentioned as a possible successor.



According to one official, who spoke with the Associated Press on condition of anonymity, Powell expects that his departure date will be sometime in January. It was not immediately clear whether he will leave before Bush's second inauguration on Jan 20.



For many months, Powell had been viewed as a likely one-term secretary of state but he has always been vague about his intentions. He had said repeatedly in recent weeks that he serves at “the pleasure of the president.”



Powell has had a controversial tenure in the chief of state's job, reportedly differing on some key issues at various junctures with Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld. Powell, however, has generally had good relations with his counterparts around the world, although his image standing has been strained by the U.S.-led war in Iraq.



Delivered U.N. speech on Iraq

Powell, a retired four-star general and former chairman of the military Joint Chiefs of Staff, led the Bush administration argument at the United Nations for a military attack to oust Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein. Most notable was his U.N. Security Council appearance on Feb. 5, 2003, during which he argued that Saddam must be removed because of its possession of weapons of mass destruction.



There is no evidence that those claims had any foundation. Powell has maintained all along that the use of force of by the American coalition in Iraq was justified.



Despite his public support of the war effort, the son of Jamaican immigrants has generally been seen as representing more moderate views on foreign policy in the Bush administration.



After the Sept. 11 terror attacks, he helped fashion a fragile coalition of countries for the war against terrorism, careful to request all the help a country could give without pushing any country beyond its limits. Similarly, when leaders decided to end or shorten their troops' duty in postwar Iraq the State Department avoided any harsh reaction, saying simply that it was up to each country to make up its mind.



He also pressed for negotiations with North Korea over its suspected nuclear arsenal and has acquiesced on European talks with Iran over its atomic programs.



Normal schedule

Powell will go about his usual schedule and will continue at full speed until a successor is named and in place, a senior administration told the AP.



Powell was scheduled to meet later Monday with Israeli Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom and was to attend a meeting of Asian in Chile on Wednesday and a mutinational conference on Iraq next week.



Word of his impending departure came shortly after Pentagon officials said there was a "strong possibility" that the secretary of state will visit the West Bank next week and meet with Israeli leaders and the new Palestinian leadership.



NBC News' Tammy Kupperman and Norah O'Donnell and the Associated Press contributed to this report.

---

_________________

Independence is my happiness, and I view things as they are, without regard to place or person; my country is the world, and my religion is to do good.

I've kissed her best friend. I've reached into her best friend's pocket and fished around for keys. And I gave her best friend my number. I must be doing something totally, totally wrong... - TBSOL by Dreams

[Kieli]

Yep, you heard right folks. Check it out:



Rove in the running as Time Magazine's Person of the Year

Quote:

---

Karl Rove in Running for Time's Person of the Year

Tue Nov 16, 4:57 PM ET



By Ellen Wulfhorst



NEW YORK (Reuters) - White House adviser Karl Rove topped the unofficial list of contenders for Time's 2004 Person of the Year, according to a panel assembled by the magazine on Tuesday to debate the question.



Along with Rove, widely credited as the architect behind President Bush (news - web sites)'s re-election, other candidates suggested by the panel included the president himself and filmmakers Mel Gibson and Michael Moore.



Time does not prepare or publish a formal list of nominees. Instead, the weekly magazine said its editors choose the person of the year after significant reporting by the staff.



The selection may well be none of the names suggested at Tuesday's panel, the editors said. The choice remains secret until it appears, this year, on the Dec. 20 issue cover.



In the meantime, the selection becomes a parlor game in America to guess who fits the criteria of "the person or persons who most affected the news and our lives, for good or for ill, and embodied what was important about the year, for better or for worse."



The person also must be alive, the editors said.



Another suggestion was "The Terrorist." Time has selected such entities as "The American Soldier" in 2003, the "Endangered Earth" in 1988 and "The 25 and Under Generation" in 1966.



Another proposed entity for 2004 was "The Blogosphere," the online Web log journals that helped redefine the role of the media. Other suggestions were God and the prophet Mohammed.



Gibson was proposed for directing "The Passion of the Christ," a controversial film seen by many as anti-Semitic. Moore made "Fahrenheit 9/11," a film highly critical of the Bush administration which was a huge box office hit.



The panel featured Time commentator Andrew Sullivan, NBC News anchor Brian Williams, activist Rev. Al Sharpton (news - web sites), Alessandra Stanley, television critic for The New York Times, and FBI (news - web sites) agent Coleen Rowley, one of the 2002 Persons of the Year which went to "The Whistleblowers."



The Person of the Year tradition grew out of an editorial embarrassment in 1927 when the magazine failed to put pilot Charles Lindbergh on its cover after his historical solo trans-Atlantic flight.



At the end of that year, during a slow news week, the editors decided to make him man of the year to remedy the oversight, said Eileen Naughton, president of the Time Group.



Some selections have been notoriously unpopular, such as Adolf Hitler in 1938, Joseph Stalin in 1939 and 1942 and the Ayatollah Khomeini in 1979.



Bush was named Person of the Year in 2000.

---

Time flies by when the Devil drives.
It's not the pace of life that concerns me, it's the sudden stop at the end.

[Gatito Grande]

[I'd actually prefer to see Rove than Dubya (since Rove is the Evil Genius behind the Dubya Disaster).]



When Powell was rumored to go, and Condoleeza Rice was said to be in the running (for Sec. of State), I didn't believe it.



When Powell (abruptly---as in "pushed") resigned, and Condi was short-listed, I didn't believe it.



When Condi was rumored to be Dubya's choice, I didn't believe it.



When the press conference was set, and the story filed, I didn't believe it.



Then I mo'fo' watched the frickin' press conference, and saw Dubya name beaming yellow-suited Condi as his Secretary of State . . . and I still don't believe it!!!



Are we just supposed to ignore that she's been a disaster as NSA?



*That 9/11 happened on her watch (a month after the CIA produced the security brief "Bin Laden Determined to Attack the U.S." and specifically mentioned hijacking airplanes! )?



*That it was her office which re-inserted the infamous "Yellowcake from Niger" into Dubya's '03 State of the Union speech (after the CIA, and Amb. Joseph Wilson, investigating, specifically told her it was bogus)?



*That she's developed an international reputation as a Bush Sycophant (w/ disturbingly personal side: "As I told my husb- . . . I mean, as I told the President")?



*That world leaders and foreign ministers can't stand the Neocon "Imperial USA" bullsh*t, of which she is a principal mouthpiece?



*That the U.S. desperately needs a Middle East (specifically Arab) specialist at this time, and not an obsolete Sovietologist (and I say that as an obsolete undergrad Sovietologist *myself*)?



*That putting her at State, in place of Powell, removes the last voice of sanity in the Administration? (What a surprise: her Neocon colleague Stephen Hadley takes over as NSA . . . while Powell's guy State #2 Richard Armitage is also leaving)?



* That the entire U.S. foreign policy team is now a frickin' HIVEMIND---the team that got us into the mess we're in, in Iraq?







GG I still can't believe it. Me, a supposed Bush-hater, didn't think Bush would be THAT STUPID . . . but no, he is. Out



GG ponders: just think, if I'd gone into the Foreign Service---as I planned, and tried---15 or 20 years ago . . . I could be resigning in disgust now!

[Diebrock]

Something to cheer you up. It's really great.



Dubya - The Movie

_________________

Independence is my happiness, and I view things as they are, without regard to place or person; my country is the world, and my religion is to do good.

I've kissed her best friend. I've reached into her best friend's pocket and fished around for keys. And I gave her best friend my number. I must be doing something totally, totally wrong... - TBSOL by Dreams

[Kieli]

So now the Republicans have stooped so low as to manipulate the rules so that a convicted criminal can retain his "leadership post". How sick is that? You can't be queer and be a leader but you can be a convicted felon and still be considered a fine, upstanding leader of men and women? I hope to hell that people protest this!



House Changes Rules to Protect de Lay

Quote:

---

House Changes Rules to Protect DeLay



Wed Nov 17, 2:36 PM ET

       

By LARRY MARGASAK, Associated Press Writer



WASHINGTON - House Republicans approved a party rules change Wednesday that could allow Majority leader Tom DeLay to retain his leadership post if he is indicted by a Texas grand jury on state political corruption charges.



By a voice vote, and with a handful of lawmakers voicing opposition, the House Republican Conference decided that a party committee of several dozen members would review any felony indictment of a party leader and recommend at that time whether the leader should step aside.



The current party rule in this area requires House Republican leaders and the heads of the various committees to relinquish their positions if indicted for a crime that could bring a prison term of at least two years. It makes no distinction between a federal and state indictment. Three of DeLay's political associates already have been indicted by that Texas grand jury.



Rep. Henry Bonilla (news, bio, voting record), R-Texas, said that under the change embraced Wednesday, the House Republican Steering Committee would have 30 legislative days to review a felony indictment and recommend to all House Republicans whether a lawmaker who is charged could remain as a committee chairman or leader.



There is no indication that DeLay, a 57-year-old Texan, will be indicted in connection with a Travis County, Texas, campaign finance investigation. But the majority leader has called the probe a partisan attack on him.



Bonilla said there was no vote count taken in the closed meeting but said the proposal passed overwhelmingly.



"This takes the power away from any partisan crackpot district attorney who may want to indict" party leaders and make a name for himself, Bonilla said.



Lawmakers said that DeLay did not publicly push for the change and did not participate in the closed-door debate which lasted several hours.



Bonilla said the leader would not have to step aside while fellow party members considered whether an indictment was frivolous.



The grand jury is probing alleged irregularities in 2002 state legislative races. Republican victories in those contests enabled DeLay ultimately to win support for a congressional redistricting plan that resulted in the GOP's gain of five House seats in Texas in this month's elections.



House Democrats have a step-aside provision that applies to both federal and state proceedings similar to the current Republican rule, and their leader, Rep. Nancy Pelosi (news, bio, voting record) of California, was highly critical of the GOP proposal.



"If they make this rules change, Republicans will confirm yet again that they simply do not care if their leaders are ethical. If Republicans believe that an indicted member should be allowed to hold a top leadership position in the House of Representatives, their arrogance is astonishing," Pelosi said.



In September, the grand jury indicted three political operatives associated with DeLay and eight companies, alleging campaign finance violations related to corporate money spent in the 2002 legislative races. The corporate donations were made to Texans for a Republican Majority, a political action committee created with help from DeLay.



DeLay said he was not questioned or subpoenaed as part of the investigation, led by retiring prosecutor Ronnie Earle.



The majority leader said after the indictments, "This has been a dragged-out 500-day investigation, and you do the political math. This is no different than other kinds of partisan attacks that have been leveled against me that are dropped after elections."



In October, the House ethics committee rebuked DeLay for appearing to link political donations to a legislative favor and improperly persuading U.S. aviation authorities to intervene in the Texas redistricting dispute.

---

Time flies by when the Devil drives.
It's not the pace of life that concerns me, it's the sudden stop at the end.