Reading and Writing Fan Fiction: Questions

[Katharyn]

Re the positive feedback thing...



I am a firm believer that if you cannot be positive and/or constructive then you stay silent. I have had the flames (thankfully not many) and it is immensly painful to have something that (in my case) is worked on over several months slammed in a few seconds with no reason for that.



Also typed responses can give the wrong impression if you are not very careful. That is not to say that feedback must be positive but you know - if you do not like a fic... or you don't think you can help with useful advice then shut up and skip to the next part or just stop reading.



Makes sense to me.



Katharyn

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[Puff]

What is interesting is the titles and types of stories that are out now on the board. Many of the titles speak of darkness, shadows and loss. Or there are the one's that speak of hope and renewal.



Compare these to the stories we were getting this time last year. They were about the happy summer break and getting Buffy back (Everyone pretty much knew that she WOULD be back). There's your link between the show and the effects it has on the fiction written.



It makes me wonder what future stories will explore, I know they are far cleverer than someof the thing I have seen on TV.



Hopefully this ramble makes sense

-----------------------
You know, it's a real deal relationship and that's why people can relate to it
Amber Benson

[darkmagicwillow]

I don't feel compelled to say something positive, but I'd rather spend my time encouraging writing I like than criticizing writing I dislike. When I first started reading Pens I was annoyed by all the short positive feedbacks and resolved not to do that and instead write long analyses like those from VampNo12 that I like so much. Later, I realized both that I didn't have time to write long feedbacks for everything I liked and that the short notes had a function in building a community here. Also, once I started posting my own writing, I learned that I really liked getting feedback, no matter how short. It let me know that people were reading and enjoying what I wrote.



I actually still worry about not having enough insightful content in my feedbacks, but I try to take time to let the authors know what I like even when I can't think of something new and interesting to tell them.

--
"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit. "   "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

[Willa1975]

1. - I keep writing and reading fan fiction becasue it gives me direct access to the characters that I have come to care about. In terms of W/T fiction, their story isn't finished for me, my interest in them isn't done with either. Writing the fiction allows me to explore the characters options, have them doing things that they (especially since the death of Tara) would otherwise never get to do. It allows me to focus in on what I want to write about using characters that are well established.



2. - The other books I read are usually just that, books. Willow and Tara are voices I hear in my head (and not because I'm crazy) I have seen the chemistry of the characters, I have heard them speak, seen them at their best and worst moments. I go away from books with pretty vivid pictures in my head, but with W/T they are even MORE vivid.

Fan fiction is a unique experience to read ("I never would have thought of that!" or "They would never do that! That is not within their characters!")



3. - Tara's death has made me both more interested and compelled by W/T fanfic. I am working on a fanfic piece now about how Tara might be brought back in a realistic manner. I want W/T to continue, and no matter what is shown in S7, W/T will live on together, happily, in my fiction.



4. - sure. reneemcsheffrey@hotmail.com



5. - I don't know if it will go away. As of yet there are no other characters on a show that I like as much, or respect as much or am as intrigued by. I suppose writing them is cathartic, I get to see them together and that makes me happy.



6. - I think feedback is important. I like to know if there are huge plot holes, or unbelievable happenings, heck even a grammar and spell check from another is good. Let's me know what's good and interesting to the readers.



7. - Feedback can help if it is feedback that is specific. I get a lot of the "I loved that, write more." kind of feedback, which is great, but it doesn't tell me where I triumphed, and I have yet to recieve any negative feedback telling me "Hey, this doesn't work at all, here's why..." I think people are just being really nice, not that I'm complaining too much, but specific and useful feedback is a great help to me and makes me more aware when I write (or at least when I edit).

[Katharyn]

Puff - Personally after I get rid of my dark fic (which was started before the current events became an issue) I intend big happy fic.



DMW - I agree... My feedback to others is not what I might like to receive myself... but the "great keep it up" is a good thing. It shows that people care and that builds community.



When I am motivated to deeper stuff (and VN12 is the key exponent of the analysis style as is Sass) I feel I have given something back, just a little. And yeah... as a feedback whore myself... I love that. But it is not like... mandatory*S*



Katharyn

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[VampNo12]

Seeing my name mentioned I will add that first, I am in awe of anyone willing to put something they put their heart/time into by posting their story for anyone to read. It takes confidence to do this, and I am greatly appreciative of their effort (whether or not it's a story with a plot that compels me to read). I never read fan fiction before in my life until W&T, and I must admit I never thought I would be able to enjoy the stories as much as I enjoyed watching the actual show on tv. Boy I was wrong, because it turned out I enjoy the writing much more than the program (and this was before the disaster of season 6, I think I started reading fic in the summer of last year). With fan fic you get to see parts of W&T's lives the show only touched on (ie personal relationship), but never dug deep enough on the show.



I must admit part of the reason my feedback tends to be long is a combination of being long-winded with my words , and from being a law student. I tend to have to go through tons of cases analyzing every little detail, and I seem to bring this into my pleasurable reading (ie fan fic). So it's a habit I can't seem to break, and believe me there are times I try to be short (I just haven't been successful yet).



Also I must admit there are stories I do read (and enjoy) that I don't give feedback due to my time constraints, as well as the fact if I come real late to a story I feel weird all the sudden giving such late feedback. And for the issue of feedback being only positive, for me I won't lie and say a story is wonderful (if I really don't like it), but at the same time I won't harshly criticize the fic either. Sometimes constructive criticism is helpful for both the reader and writer, but if I totally hate a story I just stay silent (just because I don't particularly like a certain story doesn't mean others have to feel the same way). I guess I babbled long enough, just thought I add my opinion on the feedback question.

[Tulipp]

Um, VampNo12?

Quote:

---

I guess I babbled long enough

---

.



Impossible. Really. I would love to hear more of your thoughts on the issue of feedback and the other questions, as well.



darkmagicwillow: So glad you found this. I will have more to say...



Katharyn, I get what you're saying about building community. And as we all know, it IS scary to post, and I wonder if many fewer people would take that leap if there were a higher risk of getting negative criticism. In some ways, the conventions of feedback on the board are very important.



Puff, you're right about the evidence. I need to go deep into the Pens archives and read happier stuff.



Willa1975, thanks for your thoughts. I will be getting back to you, too.

[darkmagicwillow]

1. I've loved the story of BtVS. It's one of the best shows I've ever seen on TV, but it went badly wrong this past season so I decided to see if it could be done better in fan fiction. I was amazed to see how many ways it has been be done better here on Pens.



I've watched Buffy since the summer reruns of season 1 and I've always wanted more Willow as she's the character I really identify with and I find it difficult to find characters to identify with especially on TV shows. Most importantly, Willow and Tara's relationship is one of the best relationships I've ever seen portrayed in any kind of fiction and I wanted more of that.



2. I read books by authors like Mercedes Lackey and Anne McCaffrey that's much like many of the stories here, but writing is essentially different as I haven't written anything that's not non-fiction since high school and that was a long time ago.



I'm having a difficult year and W/T fanfiction is a great source of comfort reads. I constantly build stories in my head but I've never written them down before. The combination of wanting to fix Buffy and the wonderfully supportive environment of Pens has finally encouraged me enough to actually write down a couple of my stories.



3. Season 6 was going very wrong from almost the beginning, but Seeing Red is what finally convinced me to give up on it and focus on fan fiction.

W/T fiction is definitely does more for me now and I think it might have improved too as season 6's badness inspired more people to write.



4. Sure, you've got my email.



5. Unfortunately, I think the community will gradually fade over time, but as long as people are writing good stories, I'll still be here. I read my first few W/T stories to recover from the end of season 6, but that's no longer my reason for reading. I'm reading now simply because the stories here are good.



6. The supportive feedback community of Pens was essential for inspiring me to write and for helping me continue to write.



7. Yes, particularly the more critical feedback from beta readers.

--
"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit. "   "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

[Katharyn]

Tulipp, you mentioned a couple of times about e-mails but I never seem to have received one - of course you might not have sent it! As my profile e-mail address field is private I will leave it here



katharynrosser@hotmail.com



Katharyn

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[Tulipp]

darkmagicwillow, thanks for your thoughts. As I've mentioned a few times in previous posts, I am particularly interested in how feedback works: when is it supportive and affirming, when is it critical (it can be both, of course). One thing I might want to pursue here is the specifics of a few different beta relationships. I know I save every word that my beta reader has written to me about my story, and I wonder if that's true for others? This is very likely one of the things I will want to talk about in e-mail follow-ups.



And Katharyn, no, you didn't miss my e-mail, and I do have your e-mail address. I am so sorry that I got behind on sending out my follow-ups; you are right that I have mentioned it more than once. It is coming, and thanks very much for the reminder.

[Sheridan]

I find the expectation of updates has helped me to discipline my writing, that is to actually sit down and get on with it and get into the groove of writing every day. I have a couple of other projects that have languished because the goal is the somewhat vague one of trying to write somehting publishable, whereas with the fanifc I have a clear objective.

Willow: ...I have to tell you....

Tara: No, I understand you have to be with the
person you l-love

Willow: I am

[Katharyn]

Okay Tulipp... no problem.



Whilst I am here though beta reading...



Critical. Absolutely critical - to me at least. Like you I save all the beta that comes back - I get the beta reader to edit the comments into the text in a different coloured font (I am told it is quirky!) which really does help.



It took me the longest time to figure out that a beta reader is more than a sophisticated spell checker. Actually it took one opinionated beta reader saying "No! You can't do this" and telling me why.



Guess what? She was right.See the thing about fic is that it is only your story until you publish it... then it belongs to everyone. To me a beta reader is there to be the first reader... who tells me where I screwed up... she is also therefore the co-owner of the story.



I guess what I mean is it is her fault as much as mine!



Joking aside... I am way to close to my own fic. What is logical to me is not explained adequately to others... The beta reader should be able to help with that. But you have to ask them. Tell them what you want...



This would have goen on a bit but I have been called away!



More in the email...



Katharyn

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[Tulipp]

Yes, more on e-mail, Katharyn. But you raise a fascinating point about fan fiction and ownership; I like what you say about a story belonging to the audience as well as to the writer, especially in light of things you've said before about the way you write FOR the Kittens and for posting on the Kitten Board specifically.



In that sense, and I believe you've said this before too, the feedback and response are as much a part of the story as the story itself. And I can think of some threads, like Darkness Falls or Angels and Goddesses, where the overall feedback takes on its own distinct personality or character.



Any thoughts on this, anyone?

[darkmagicwillow]

I too save all my feedback from my beta reader. She's an essential part of my writing. I never felt a need for spelling or grammar checking (watch how many mistakes I make after writing that!), but I absolutely need someone to tell me whether the story is working, whether it conveys the emotions I want it to and whether I'm staying true to my characters. The criticism is essential.



I also like what Katharyn says about the ownership of these stories, though I disagree with her stance on archiving. Katharyn, I'd love to have copies of your stories without all the HTML and commentary added on Pens so I could go back and reference them, both for making comments about your current fic (Sidestep is complex--I need to backreference occassionally to remember the details of what's happened and it's hard to do that on Pens) and for examining them to understand what makes your writing work.

--
"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit. "   "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

[MadeinNZ]

Before I answer the questions I just want to say, as an avid reader of W/T fic, a big thanks to all the writers who contribute to the Pens Board. The quality is so high and the stories so compelling that I have become a bit of an addict (but in a good way). It gets quite confusing flicking between stories so I tend to go back to the previous chapter to refresh. I probably spend around 3 hours a day on the Pen Board at the moment.



1. Why do you keep coming back to read or to write W/T fan fiction? A couple of things: 1)The high quality of the fic. There some superb stories; and 2) A love of the characters and their relationship.



2. Is there something about reading and writing W/T fan fiction that is essentially different from the other reading and writing that you do? How would you describe that difference, or how would you say what makes fan fiction reading and writing unique?For me, its all about the characters. I love these girls. Also - I'm fairly entrenched in the BtVS universe so things are very familiar and easy to relate to.



3. Have the recent events on the show changed your feelings about W/T fan fiction specifically? I've always been a big fanfic reader and I don't think recent events will diminish this.



4. May I ask you follow-up on questions via e-mail? Yes. Email me on: nicolahaslam@xtra.co.nz



5. Do you think that at some point your need for W/T fan fiction will go away? If not, why not? Is it really cathartic if you keep coming back to it? No - if the stories are great - I'll keep reading.



6. & 7 Feedback I can only give you the feedback of a respondee here (rather than a recipient). I like to give feedback when I think I can encourage the writer. Sometimes I just want to let them know that I enjoyed reading it. I try not to put pressure on for updates - its usually along the lines of "Can't wait to read the next bit". I'll be a bit more careful about this in the future after reading some of the comments earlier on. I don't usually post negative feedback. I don't really feel qualified to give a critique. If I don't like it, I won't continue to read it.

------------------------------


"When someone falls for Willow, they stay fallen" - Normal Again

Edited by: MadeinNZ at: 7/31/02 5:27:27 pm

[Tulipp]

Sheridan and Katharyn, I''m interested in that question of compulsion, both by a beta reader and by general readers, and I want to flip that question around to focus not on the writer but the reader of fanfic:



Especially with fanfic written for and on the Kitten board, I wonder if readers feel ownership of the fics, if they/we have a part to play in the outcome of the story?



We're all active viewers, right, in the sense that we take these characters from TV and do what we like with them, but do we see ourselves as active readers as well? I may want to follow up on this.



And MadeinNZ, thanks for your reply. You mentioned that you have to go back and refresh your memory with a given story when you read updates. I sometimes do that, too because there are so many versions of W and T out there.



And as a feedbacker, any thoughts on the question above about active readers? Do you feel ownership of any kind of stories?



Thanks.

[Puff]

As an active reader I don't feel ownership of any stories that I read but that doesn't make me any less involved. What I like about reading fanfic is seeing where other people would take the characters. I'm just there for the ride, I think that most people when the post the first part of a story already know where the next part is going...although I guess this is not always true.



I think I only feel that the influence I (as a reader) have on the story is in getting the next update pasted and encouraging the writer in the work they are doing.

-----------------------
You know, it's a real deal relationship and that's why people can relate to it
Amber Benson

[Tulipp]

Puff, very interesting. When you say that most people know when a first post goes up where the fic is going, do you mean that the WRITER knows, or the READER knows?



Also, I seem not to be able to stop myself from just throwing out more and more questions:



How do individual beta relationships work? I only have my own experience to go with on this, and I suspect that it's very particular.



Anyone care to answer this? How do you do what you do with your beta? (Writing and reading, folks).



Or, for you beta readers out there, how do you do what you do with your writer?

Edited by: Tulipp at: 8/1/02 11:17:42 am

[darkmagicwillow]

I've always been an active reader, continually building new plotlines for stories I read and creating entire new stories if I like the author's world enough. I think I started that when I read The Lord of the Rings in grade school.



I'm not sure how much feedback can influence authors here, but I try to suggest interesting ideas and point out things I liked to encourage the author in general but also in the hopes of seeing more of what I liked. Of course, it's up to the author to decide what to do with the feedback.

--
"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit. "   "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

[Puff]

Well I have an idea as the reader and a lot of that actually depends on what writer I am reading,. (hopefully that makes sense)



But I'd hope the writer would as well know a general idea by the time they post part 1.



I tend to find that if I really think that I know where the story is going then I would never post it anyway. I like to be continually surprised and I figure that other readers do as well. Many times a story will change direction on you (as a reader) and I like those twists.



As for the question How do you do what you do with your beta?



Well I sent mine in small chunks to my beta who made all suggestions in a different color and then sent them back. That way I could change the grammar and see cooments about the story and events etc and choose what worked.We also IMed each other to make comments about various parts.



I hope some of this helped

-----------------------
You know, it's a real deal relationship and that's why people can relate to it
Amber Benson

[Sheridan]

I have to say that I work the opposite way round, I have to have a pretty good idea of where the story will go before I even think about witing it. In fact I write a complete outline in advance. I do this for several reasons. Firstly by actually having it down I can see where there are weaknesses or where I can make additions. Secondly I've found from experience that if I start out on a story without a plan things tend to go worng, you get trapped into blind alleys, its not infallible of course, I had to completely rewrite 'LA La Land'.

Willow: ...I have to tell you....

Tara: No, I understand you have to be with the
person you l-love

Willow: I am

[MadeinNZ]

I agree with Puff above. As a reader, I don't feel any ownership for the stories. I don't make suggestions about where the story should go - I like to be surprised. This is different from the writer/beta relationship which is much more collaborative.

------------------------------


"When someone falls for Willow, they stay fallen" - Normal Again

[Tulipp]

So Puff and others, may I ask? What kinds of beta comments do you get?



As for the question of ownership, I'm persuaded by the last few posts about the limits of ownership and the limits of feedback...it does seem that there is a point beyond which a story belongs to an author. At the same time, the story on its own is very different from the story read as it appears in the thread, complete with feedback and avatars and conversation. So in a way, all of that becomes part of the conversation.

[Magrat70]

I've just started to use a beta and I'm finding it very useful. I picked the person who I wanted to Beta my work because I knew she would challenge me if she felt I was on the wrong track.



I wish i had had a Beta when I started writing my fic "Passion Never Dies" because I may have toned down a scene that upset people. I think at times you get so close to the story that you need someone to pull you back at times and try to get you to look at things from a different angle.



I also save any comments sent to me by Beth

These five words in my head scream "are we having fun yet?"

Chad Kroeger

[Puff]

What kinds of beta comments do you get?



I'm probably not the best person to ask here as I have only written the one story But I got grammar changes and comments for each chapter sent. Mainly it was comments on how individual sentences sounded and what worked and what didn't. I also was very nervous (and still am) about posting what I wrote so my beta was very good at encouraging me as well that I was taking the story in a good direction etc. Normally those happened over IM messages when we would discuss how the story was going and what the beta reader thought of the story so far.



If I had to ask myself why I was nervous of posting it would be because what I wrote was personal in a way to me. I thought I'd write better about things that I have gone through so I incorporated parts of me in with parts of Tara in the story. So this has made me a bit nervous about how things are received although so far everything is going ok.



I don't know if other people had this experience but I was told by the end of the story that my beta reader had to make far few suggestions (she prefers that term ) in how the story was going.



Does any of this help Tulipp?

-----------------------
You know, it's a real deal relationship and that's why people can relate to it
Amber Benson

[Tulipp]

Magrat, I like what you said about having a beta reader who challenges you; I know this is true for me, as well--a beta doesn't only help with the nuts and bolts of the writing but also plays devil's advocate and challenges. Is this true for others, as well?



Puff, YES! This is helping a great deal. I haven't been on the Kitten board very long compared to many people, but even so, I have already internalized some of the conventions of the Kitten and Pens so that the way we do things here--how we respond to fics, how beta readers work, etc. --already seems natural to me; it feels intuitive. But to try to write ABOUT this, I have to think about what would not be intuitive for others. And I think feeding back and beta relationships fall into this category.



So please, keep posting!

[darkmagicwillow]

My beta reader challenges me quite a bit, especially when I first began writing, to make scenes more emotional and to be true to the characters, especially Tara who I have a more difficult time writing. She usually gives me overall analyses of scenes instead of commenting on specific lines except for the occassional very important line.



She's also great for keeping me consistent with the show. Even though I can reference the transcripts online, they're missing a lot of the nonverbal interactions that are so important.



We do everything through email. I usually send her a second draft of each chapter then depending on feedback do another couple of drafts before sending it back to her. Since I'm not posting any chapters until I'm mostly done, I also go back, either because of her feedback or from my own inspiration, to earlier chapters to add things that make future parts flow more easily with the whole story.

--
"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit. "   "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

[Tulipp]

darkmagicwilllow, you raise a very interesting point when you mention that you reference the transcripts available online in your writing. I do that, too, and also use the Buffy Dialogue Database, although that doesn't have everything. And I watch taped episodes that a friend loans me.



This is research, right? I imagine that other books--fiction and non-fiction--also could be considered research.

[mariacomet]

My beta readers are mean, unfeeling wenches who wield whips and torture me...



er...was that outloud?



I kid! I kid! Actually I currently have three beta readers and they are all saints... Kathayrn, LeatherQueen and Pixie.



I think my first piece of advice, if I am qualified to give any is this...have more then one beta reader. The reasons why are many. First, beta readers are human too. No, really...they are. They might miss a misspelled word or needed comma, just like you did. A second beta reader increases the percentage that typos will disappear by the final draft.



However the most important reason in my mind is that different people have different perceptions.



When I write, I am trying to communicate to a rather broad base of people as a whole. What might be common phrases for me, might not be true everywhere. And what might feel true for some, might not feel quite right for others.



I think that as a writer, my greatest enemy is a lack of objectivity. In other words, I know what I MEAN to say...I know what I MEAN to make the reader feel...but often I am not sure how things come across.



I need another pair of eyes and the insight that comes with them. Also, multiple betas mean you get the advantage of several unique perspectives. In my opinion, this is invaluable.



Little comments can make a world of difference.



As for how you get these comments - sometimes you ask. Often in emails to betas, I ask them to specificially look for things. I might say something like



- IS Willow too whiny in the first scene?

- Overall, how is character X coming across?

- Does this part seem slow and dragging?



more general questions you might ask to get a good dialouge going are:



- Overall what did you think of Willow in this part?

- Do you think - so far - that the characters are like they are in the show?



etc etc.



I believe that certain beta readers mesh better will with certain writers and visa versa. This is normal. And I also think it can take time to fall in sync with a beta reader. They need to figure out what you are looking for, and how best they can help you - which most beta readers will want to genuinely do.



Above all, I want to encourage you to remember that beta readers are giving you a gift of their time and vision. Be sure that you appreciate that as best you can.

Edited by: mariacomet at: 8/4/02 3:10:24 pm

[Sheridan]

Well when it comes to beta reading I really see them as a way of seeing how well I've gotten my ideas across, if there are any places where theres not enough exposition, simply because I know whats happening, or where things aren't as clear as they should be. When it comes to plot or characterisation, sorry but at the end of the day it is my story and I'm very selfish and temperamental.

Willow: ...I have to tell you....

Tara: No, I understand you have to be with the
person you l-love

Willow: I am