"Preventing" homosexuality??

[maudmac]

Sheridan, that's a good point. I doubt very seriously that Dobson believes he could ever be made to be gay, but, by his own logic, he could.

---------------------------
I bring pie scented cleaner!--- weebl

Edited by: maudmac at: 7/13/02 4:26:18 pm

[kittenchow]

God this guy is pathetic....I'm surprised he didn't come right out and say that homosexuality is "contagious". Next, he'll be on a campaign to raise money for the CDC to do research to find a cure like Cancer research and HIV. Maybe one day, we'll all be able to take injections and oral medications to rid us of our "homosexuality"...Yea! There is hope yet...maybe I don't have to live my life as a lesbian....one day I'll be able to shout out...as well as Tara did, "I'm cured, I want the boys!" WHATEVER!!!!!!!!!

***********
If you want, then start to laugh. If you must, then start to cry. Be yourself, don't hide...just believe in destiny. Don't care what people say, just follow your own way. Don't give up and loose the chance, to return to innocence. - ENIGMA

[BBOvenGuy]

Someone emailed me today asking for links to some websites that deal with homosexuality and Christianity. For the benefit of others, I'll post a couple of those links again here. We had a pretty good discussion over at the old Novogate board once, but I think it was lost when we moved.



www.soulforce.org



This is the homepage of Soulforce, a group dedicated to seeking justice for the LGBT community through nonviolent means, founded by the Rev. Mel White. Mel used to be a ghost-writer for Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson and the rest of the fundie hit-parade, until he came out and they all disowned him. More recently, Jerry Falwell has started talking to Mel again, but sadly I don't think their dialogue has gotten anywhere. Mel White is also the author of the very good book, Stranger at the Gate: To Be Gay and Christian in America.



www.ufmcc.com



This is the homepage for the Metropolitan Community Church, a Christian denomination founded in 1968 specifically for addressing the spiritual needs of the LGBT community around the world.



Check 'em out if you're interested.

------------------------------------------------
"A man who fails well is greater than one who succeeds badly" - Thomas Merton

Edited by: BBOvenGuy  at: 7/13/02 5:10:04 pm

[Nostalgianaut]

This Dobson guy's a looney! I remember back in the eighties when he was saying that Garbage Pail kids were demonic.

[slayer747]

One of my most-hated misconceptions about homosexuality is that when your friends (in my case, my girl friends) when they find out one of their female friend's gay they immediately assume that she will jump their bones.



How can something that feels (and is) so natural be prevented?



If i were given a chance to change things i wouldn't. i'd rather change the world so that they'd understand.



some straight people can't really think straight.



*instead of double posting, edit your first post and add anything new to that one.

------------
"Sometimes things happen between people that you don't really expect. And sometimes the things that are important are the ones that seem the weirdest or the most wrong, and those are the ones that change your life." - Jessie "Once and Again"

Edited by: Warduke at: 7/13/02 7:49:58 pm

[friskylez]

I was going to post a big old long rant this morning, but i decide all i could say was phuck em and

"Pride that dines on vanity sups on contempt"

[areslei]

I started getting queezy in the middle of reading that little article. All I can say is "what the f***." Looks like we have an epidemic here...bah! Sexually repressed asshole.

[Latsric]

It's things like this article that give me that little extra push to stay in school and get my Ph. D in Social psychology. Makes me want to go to the lab right now and prove them all wrong.



-lat-

- I need my obsessions, they keep me sane -

[lauriebear]

Well considering the estimated population of the US is

284, 796,887



And approximately 10% of the Population in gay.......



800!!!



wow he's reached .002% of US



These types of Homophobes are the worse because he presents his homophobic views in a what seem like a credible manner. Really, how many average uneducated Americans are going to read this article critically.



And TB a sexually transmitted disease???? Did I miss something in health class? I needed a good laugh



I ceases to amaze me why anyone would care so much what two people do in the privacy of there own bedroom.

What are they afraid of?

[urnofosiris]

Amy. coming from *you* that is very high praise indeed.

Between you, Jill and Julia wanting to have 10000 of my babies and Ruth being jealous over that I am getting quite modest.

Please keep it up.

---------------------------


Tara: "uh Willow?"

Willow: "No dancing naked, huh?...It just won't be the same."

Tara: "That's all right, we can save it for later" ----From Wilderness, the newest WT comic written by Amber Benson and Christopher Golden

[Hemiola]

Actually, what bothers me more are the "sneaky" aspects of this.



What do I mean?



Clearly this individual has a religious agenda/program in mind. Yet he feels it absolutely essential to hide behind his "doctor" title, as if what he is doing is promoting a "scientific" health program, rather than simply coming out (pun intended ) and saying, "I'm preaching". The "science" aspects of this are nothing less than a feeble attempt to give his statements a veneer of "respectability".



No offence to any religious people on this board, but it seems to me lately that more and more fundamentalists of all religions, realizing that an outright "religious" approach to their agendas no longer grants them any credibility, now feel it necessary to twist and torture science in order to "justify" their approaches to just about everything: sexuality, paleontology/anthropology (think of the oxymoronic "creation science"), culture, morals, etc. etc. etc.

[Zahir al Daoud]

Myself, I just skimmed this article because so many little things at the very start proved the guy an arrogant fool.

"O Let my name be in the Book of Love!
If it be there I care not of that other Book above.
Strike it out! Or write it in anew, but
Let my name be in the Book of Love!"
--Omar Kayam

[kukalaka]

As for the not wanting to change: After I had thought "You know, it really really really looks as though you're gay" for the first time, the very next thing I thought was: "This is sooo cool, I'll get to (make) love (to) women this way." It sounds kind of ridiculous, but imo it shows two things:

1. I really am gay (at least that's what I think today, it probably won't take too long before my confusion is back)

2. No want to change here either.



Of course the second thing was: "Gee, probably gonna have to face some problems..., but hey, women...

[Kalita]

Here's something interesting. Over the last couple days, as I've looked at this thread's title, I keep reading it as "Perverting homosexuality".



Which is oddly appropriate, 'cuz that's exactly what this guy's doing, making a perversion of the way we live. And I'm damn sick of it. : -->

"Hot lesbian witches! It's f--king genius!"
-Charlie Sheen, Being John Malkovich

[Robin]

When I read that article yesterday I just thought what a brainless idiot the writer is.

In the night I remembered a book I read from Armistead Maupin. There was a letter (great letter actually) from mouse to his parents in which he told them that the only thing he needed to be prevented (or saved, I'm not sure anymore) from, were people like Anita B.. The writer of this bloody stupid article just belongs in the same category of people who are too blind to see that your sexuality belongs to you like the colour of your eyes. It's nothing you choose, it can't be changed and as you are born this way it was meant to be this way.

[BBOvenGuy]

Fundamentalists are constantly getting themselves caught in logic traps. That's because when they say that the Bible is "100% true," they mean that every single word in the Bible is literally true (by their definition of "literally true"). That's opposed to other Christians who believe that the Bible sometimes uses metaphor, allegory, symbolism, etc. in its effort to express the spiritual truth - and also that what's said in the Bible needs to be viewed in its historical context.



If homosexuality is something that people are born with, that means God made homosexuals the way they are. But the Fundamentalists' "100% true" interpretation of the Bible says that homosexuality is against God. That means God made someone who is automatically against Himself, which is a contradiction.



There are two ways to resolve the contradiction - (a) insist that homosexuality is always a choice, thus denying that God made anyone as a homosexual, or (b) admit that homosexuality isn't something that's as "against God" as the Fundamentalists claim.



Guess which option the Fundamentalists choose?

------------------------------------------------
"A man who fails well is greater than one who succeeds badly" - Thomas Merton

[DawnsMan]

It pisses me off that this guy is saying this stuff. I hate it when these poeple give Christians a bad name. I'm a Christian and he makes us all look like stereotypical dickheads.

[Ittybittykitty]

I finally forced myself to read the entire freaking article. Damn. Him. I'd like to take his Ph.D and beat him over the head with it...asshole! I almost felt like adding in stuff to classify prehomosexual lesbians...being athletic, wearing "masculine clothes", being a tomboy, I mean the list could go on.

Hey why stop there? Why not try and single out all the gay teens and subject them to electro-shock therapy? Or aversion therapy like in the 70's? That might work! A little pain, some permanent physical and emotional scarring should do the trick!

I'm sorry I just got really pissed when I finally finished this...what a demented psycotic guy with papers, who people listen to!

Meri-SCREW THE SYSTEM!
Me-I will not, who knows where it's been?!

[Amymlc]

This guy is not only homophobic but also sexist. He seems to believe that mothers have a gay virus that they can pass onto their sons if the "man" doesn't step in and take charge of the mother son relationship. In what ways do boys have more developmental steps than girls? How is letting a little boy see his father's genitals in the shower going to make him straight? Since when have gays wanted to be the opposite gender? Isn't that transgender people? In most studies more transdender people are heterosexual than homosexual. I for one have never EVER wanted to be a boy, and I have never been very masculine...but then again he will probably see my interest in sports as masculine because women could never want to be active. I have always known I was female and never once wished I had a penis. Why do so many people care what people like sexually. Is it really that big a deal that I do not like penises? Sometimes I sit and I try and try to understand hate and prejudice and homophobia, but I just can't. I really don't understand why so many people care what people do and do not do sexually. Can someone please explain to me why that is important?



His comment about the twins have the 50 pecent chance of being gay is totally false. I researched that very subject for a research paper for my soc. class last year. Anyone in general has a 50 percent chance of being homosexual (including bisexuality), but if one twin is gay...the other is VERY likely to be gay as well. I do not remember the percentage exactly, but it is very high.



I love how he talks about his ex gay friend who is now married to an ex lesbian and has children...but then he says that he had a lapse where he was caught in a gay bar....yeah he sounds "cured" to me.



"Finally, if homosexuality were genetically transmitted, it would be inevitable, immutable, irresistible, and untreatable. Fortunately, it is not. Prevention is effective. Change is possible. Hope is available." --how can you prove that it is preventable? Does he know that someone was going to be gay before they were and then prevented it? I don't get how he can say that it is preventable.



I also think it is interesting that he talks about the greeks and romans where homosexuality "reached epidemic proportions." Ummm..that's because the Greeks and Romans did not see anything wrong with homosexuality so people didn't have to repress their feelings. It wasn't until someone (no doubt catholic) said that it was unnatural, wrong, blah blah blah...that the homosexual population decreased to what it is today. My personal opinion is that once people stop believing that loving someone of your own gender is "wrong" than we won't really need the titles homosexual and heterosexual. Why can't we just love who we love?





Hmm...I guess that is all I have to say...I could go on forever but I live in Arizona where it like never rains and it is pouring outside and I want to go play in it...so I guess I am finished.

[Pipsqueak]

Quote:

---

I hate it when these people give Christians a bad name. I'm a Christian and he makes us all look like stereotypical dickheads.

---

Can I add an "Amen" to that? I'm a Christian, and I don't buy a word of Dobson's crap. Sometimes it makes me embarrassed to be a believer, just because a few high-profile fundies make us look bad. We're not all like that, folks. I could go off on a big rant ....... but I won't. sigh.

---------------


"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." -- Albert Einstein


Check out my Buffy videos at http://mywebpages.comcast.net/pipsqueaky

[BBOvenGuy]

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Amymlc:

I also think it is interesting that he talks about the greeks and romans where homosexuality "reached epidemic proportions." Ummm..that's because the Greeks and Romans did not see anything wrong with homosexuality so people didn't have to repress their feelings. It wasn't until someone (no doubt catholic) said that it was unnatural, wrong, blah blah blah...that the homosexual population decreased to what it is today.

---

Well see, this is where the bit about "viewing the Bible in historical context" comes into play. Dr. Dobson is obviously referring to the Apostle Paul's Epistle to the Romans, which is the only mention of homosexuality in the entire New Testament, and the only mention of lesbianism in the entire Bible.



What was really going on - and this is what the Fundamentalists ignore - is that a lot of the "epidemic" homosexual activity was associated with the pagan temples. Prostitutes of both genders would work inside the temples, and depending on what ritual you were performing for which god, you would have sex with a prostitute of one gender or another. That's what Paul was denouncing, not two people of the same gender in a committed relationship.



When the Catholic church - which was the only Christian church in that day - took over and became the official religion of the Roman Empire, everything that had to do with the old pagan order was annihilated, including the same-sex rituals in the temples. I think that's where a lot of the church's aversion to homosexuality started.

------------------------------------------------
"A man who fails well is greater than one who succeeds badly" - Thomas Merton

[Amymlc]

yep...that's when the "devil" was created....to resemble a pagan diety...but I could go on and on about how the pagans were treated.

[BBOvenGuy]

Oh, the Judeo-Christian tradition has always had a devil. He shows up in the Book of Job, which archeologists believe was one of the first books written. But I think this was when he got his horns and pointy tail, yes.

------------------------------------------------
"A man who fails well is greater than one who succeeds badly" - Thomas Merton

[Gatito Grande]

Also, regarding Paul's condemnation of "homosexuality" (not the actual word, because no such word existed until the 19th century), don't forget the pedophilic aspect of Greco-Roman (male) homosexuality. When a man took a lover, it was supposed be a youth who could not yet grow a beard (when that happened the young man essentially "graduated": now he could take a pre-pubescent lover, and so forth).



Moreover, there's the sexist aspect: the worst thing about male homosexuality (to Paul and observant Jews generally) was that of the catamite or "bottom." Horror of horrors, a man being penetrated . . . like a woman! Considering that there's a traditional Hebrew prayer where a man is to thank G-d everyday that he wasn't born a woman . . . you get the idea.



Fortunately, Jesus wasn't concerned w/ any of this. He not only hung around and talked about God (!) w/ women, but w/ women who were considered sexual sinners---never harping about the sex aspect in the slightest. There's a lot of doubt as to whether Jesus could speak and/or read Greek: I like to think he could, and was a fan of Sappho.



GG If you ever get a chance, check out the movie "Trembling before G-d" a documentary about gay and lesbian Orthodox Jews Out

[Kaisyn]

As a born-again, spirit-filled, Christian lesbian, I believe I am James Dobson's worst nightmare. I love God with all my heart and I love my wife. If you truly study the Bible, meaning the original texts, you will never find anything against a loving committed relationship between two people of the same gender. Including Sodom and Gomorrah histories. Everywhere else the texts talk about the two cities and mention their "sin" it was inhospitality. Nothing about homosexuality. I was once a very conservative Christian who thought I would burn in hell if I didn't get "delivered" from loving women. Now I know that God doesn't hate me and am infuriated by the very thought that I was led to believe that. My relationship with God became closer than ever when I said out loud, "I'm gay." The truth really did set me free.







p.s. about the devil. Lucifer is a beautiful creature whose original job was the worship leader of heaven. No tail, no horns, nothing. I believe the book of Isaiah tells of the end of the world and people seeing him for what he truly is and proclaiming, "That is what made the earth tremble!" and then kind of rolling their eyes.



k

[La]

about dobson's argument about twins:

Quote:

---

There is further convincing evidence that it is not. For example, since identical twins share the same chromosomal pattern, or DNA, the genetic contributions are exactly the same within each of the pairs. Therefore, if one twin is "born" homosexual, then the other should inevitably have that characteristic too. That is not the case. When one twin is homosexual, the probability is only 50 percent that the other will have the same condition. 9 Something else must be operating.

---

whether or not the percentages are right or wrong, by his argument, if twins have identical genes, shouldn't they be identical in all other aspects as well - same personality and intelligence and all that? I'm sure my dad and his identical twin brother would argue against that. They're not total opposites, but they're not completely identical either. They're their own person, just like all sets of identical twins.



Just another instance where his "scientific" arguments are pure shite.

~La

You know you've been in Korea too long when you start packing to return to the U.S.

[Mrs Vertigo]

I just want to refer to something a couple of you have mentioned, that if you were actually given the choice to be either straight or gay, you would still prefer to be gay. Well, why is that?



I would’ve chosen to be straight. I don’t ‘like’ being a lesbian, I wouldn’t ‘choose’ it. Why, you ask? Well, whether we like it or not, homosexuality is an abnormality. Its sot a disability, but its not a normal and/or natural thing. The world is still 90something% straight. We have to fight and claw for every crumb, especially those of us who aren’t even bisexual. Why should anybody choose that? No, if I could, I would’ve chosen to love men. But hey, tough luck, I didn’t get that choice. I got stuck with an incredibly narrow range of possible partners, of literature and heck, even tv shows.



That is why I get SO incredibly angry when people call homosexuality ‘trendy’. Tattooing is trendy, tank-tops are trendy. Homosexuality is, whether we like it or not, a permanent hormonal disorder. It’s not changeable, it’s not preventable. If straight people have a hard time accepting that sexuality, think how the gays themselves must feel! Goddamn, I don’t need to be told I’m ‘curable’, I don’t need religious placebos and I don’t need false fucking hopes! If I’VE come to terms with my sexuality, they should have the common courtesy to do the same.

[concrete]

Erm….not normal ? Okay, maybe if you take that word quite literally, meaning “ outside the prevailing norm” yeah, maybe. But not natural ??? Well, excuuuuuse me but I would be (and feel) ‘unnatural’ if I were to engage in an intimate relationship with a member of the opposite sex. Or maybe it’s just me. But I don’t think so….. A hormonal disorder??? HUH?

It's not so much that I'm always right, it's just that I'm never wrong
Time cannot erase.....the memory of your face

[kukalaka]

I hope I'll make some sense here:



I wouldn't want to change because that is who I am. I would maybe like to have the opportunity to change some mistakes I made, but I definitely would not want to change my sexuality. Because that is no mistake, it's just who I am.



And if I am to experience problems because of being gay, I still know, that they really are problems of society since being gay in itself just isn't. It would probably be more difficult to maintain this attitude if things were still as bad as they used to be, I'm aware of that.



But If I wanted to be different, I would have to feel there is something bad about the way I am first. And I will not be made to think I'm bad because of what I happen to be by anyone.



--

IDIC - Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations (gotta love these Vulcans, such a good way to explain the way I see life)

[maudmac]

Mrs Vertigo, homosexuality, though falling outside the "norm" in all species, is nontheless natural. A hormonal disorder? No more so than having any preference for certain attributes in a partner, which we all do.



Homosexuality is found throughout the animal kingdom and many anthropologists have surmised that homosexuality in humans has remained at roughly constant levels throughout our history and that it was even an important part of why we are such a successful species. The theory is that homosexuality typically freed certain members of society to perform necessary duties, as they were likely to have less familial responsibilities. In a tribe of a hundred individuals, a few who had no children would be available to take care of some of the tribes other issues. The idea is that homosexuality helped humanity prosper. (Yes, it is "only" a theory, and we all know many gays and lesbians have children, but it makes sense.)



Just because society is opposed to something doesn't mean that which they oppose is wrong to be what it is. Much of American society was once opposed to African-Americans being anything other than property. Who in that situation bears the burden to change? Would you say that African-Americans have a permanent skin disorder?



And I cannot say it enough times, I wouldn't want to be straight for anything.

---------------------------
I bring pie scented cleaner!--- weebl