The Politics Thread - Read the First Post

[darkmagicwillow]

The U.S. has been the agressor in many conflicts, ranging from the 1915 invasion of Haiti which was followed by a 19 year occupation of that country, to U.S. and allied invasions of the USSR in 1918-1922 to rollback the Communist revolution (ever wonder how why the USSR was always suspicious of the US?), to the 1954 overthrow of the government of Guatemala on the behalf of United Fruit Company.



When did Congress lose its sole authority over the declaration of war? It's largely a rhetorical question, but U.S. involvement in dozens of conflicts since 1900 with only two declarations of war (WWI and WWII, unless I'm missing one) makes it clear that the executive branch has escaped its constitutional limitations to dominate American government.





On the separate topic of weapons of mass destruction, while the U.S. position is hypocritical to some extent, I do support most efforts at non proliferation as that's good for us all. It's also worth noting that the U.S. has banned bioweapons and significantly reduced its nuclear stockpile over the last couple of decades.

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

Edited by: darkmagicwillow at: 3/20/03 7:19:04 pm

[Kieli]

Apparently Dubya's education lacks some basic lessons in Civics. I'm sure he was sleeping during those classes Apparently the Checks and Balances of our government were interpreted as Credit or Debit. Everyone's been looking the other way for so long it's become habit. Pity.



The "other" Toni

Love is tricky. It is never mundane or daily. You can never get used to it. You have to walk with it, then let it walk with you. You can never balk. It moves you like the tide. It takes you out to sea then lays you on the beach again. Today's struggling pain is the foundation for a certain stride through the heavens. You can run from it but you can never say no. It includes everyone."--Amy Tan "The Hundred Secret Secret Senses"

[Mayhem]

Oh totally, I agree. What I am saying that it is unfair to attempt to disarm Sadaam while this is the same country whom not only has weapons of mass destruction but also is in the business of selling weapons to repressive regimes.



It's not just the United States that is guilty in this regard. Look at the massive human suffering and death that occured in Rwanda. Ethnic tension (created during colonialism) was escalated and encouraged by two rival camps who profited from the selling of weapons)



The whole world, ideally, should disarm, but you can't try to disarm a nation by using bombs. It's completely illogical.

[Kieli]

Agreed. However, the problem is that none of the nations really, truly trust each other. It could be that our dear Dubya has decided to become territorial and annex Iraq. Wouldn't that be a piece of work?

Love is tricky. It is never mundane or daily. You can never get used to it. You have to walk with it, then let it walk with you. You can never balk. It moves you like the tide. It takes you out to sea then lays you on the beach again. Today's struggling pain is the foundation for a certain stride through the heavens. You can run from it but you can never say no. It includes everyone."--Amy Tan "The Hundred Secret Secret Senses"

[xita]

I got my Dixie Chicks CD in the mail today. I am so ashamed that people in America, try to silence others from expressing their right to freedom of speech.



My biggest problem is being an educator and having little kids asking me questions and having to not present a point of view. Very difficult especially when kids think in terms of black and white. Good guy - bad guy. They know they live here and we aren't bad so therefore what we do or our president has to be the bad guy. Saddam of course must be the bad guy, but how can you explain to the kids that he may be a bad guy but that doesn't mean it's right to go into his country for an unjustified war.



I am so afraid that they are going to send me some curriculum to prepare children for bio/chemical terrorism. I never got to sing "duck and cover," but god help me if I am asked to sing "plastic and tape are your friends," or some dumb thing.



And my current favorite link:



www.houstonjusticenotwar....ist_attack

-----------------------------------

Only 50 cents

[Willowlicious]

Well, I could write a lot about this, but I'm tired and I don't want to bore anyone. So, the short version is that I'm extremely bothered that the US has chosen to take military action against Iraq. I don't think the benefits are worth the immediate deaths of innocents that will take place. I believe that the actions of the US are going to further enflame the anti-American sentiments that fuel the terrorist groups we are SUPPOSED to be fighting. (Do the war hawks forget that it was the presence of US troops in Saudi Arabia during the first Gulf War that set off bin Laden in the first place?) Finally, I'm angry at the arrogant, underhanded way the Bush Administration has presented the "reasons" for this conflict to the American people and to the world. It was maddening to see them carefully, purposefully try to confuse the 9/11 attacks with Iraq, knowing that many people would come to see them as the same thing. I also just love how questioning the actions of the Bush Administration is called "un-American" or "pro-Saddam." They're depending on flag-waving sheep to shout down dissent and intelligent debate, because careful review of their policies on this matter reveal holes big enough for that new-fangled Mother of All Bombs of theirs to fly through.



Sigh.



I just want this over as soon as possible. I'm fearful that this war has just ensured that we will live in fear for much longer. My brother-in-law works in New York City. He survived the World Trade Center attacks (the second plane went right through his office), but now he's afraid to use the subway. He takes cabs to work. He and my sister are more nervous now because of the war. They are desperately trying to move back to Michigan. They've had it.



I pray for the safety of our troops and for the people of Iraq and for everyone this conflict will endanger.



Amy

[Kieli]

Oh Xita that link just had me ROTFLMFAO! It's so sad but I couldn't help myself. Talk about mixed messages!

Love is tricky. It is never mundane or daily. You can never get used to it. You have to walk with it, then let it walk with you. You can never balk. It moves you like the tide. It takes you out to sea then lays you on the beach again. Today's struggling pain is the foundation for a certain stride through the heavens. You can run from it but you can never say no. It includes everyone."--Amy Tan "The Hundred Secret Secret Senses"

[Enigmatic]

Well, soldiers are on their way to Bagdad right now, less then a day away have I heard. It puzzles me that they didn't just give them a big attack from the beginning, but then I talked with my dad about it...

True, they might have tried to nail SH with the little attack, but my theory is that Bush WANTS SH to use some of his stuff. If he just droops a tiny little chemical bomb, then Bush's war is justified. Just like that. I think that's what he's waiting for, because if he wanted, he could have removed him by now...

I'm from Denmark, and I "we" have decided to go to war. My personal opinion is that our Prime Minister must be gay have the hots for Bush...



Sarah

I know you're gone, you said you're gone, but I can still feel you here...

[GottaLuvAmber]

One thing (out of many) that bothers me about this war is any reference to religion. Now, don't get me wrong: Although I am agnostic, I admire people with a strong spirituality. One of my best friends is Muslim and I love asking and learning about her practices. And I myself am minoring in Classical Civilizations, so I fully relish the beliefs of the ancient Greeks.



What bothers me is when religion becomes political. Bush believes firmly in God and expects us to. I may not pray for our soldiers, but I do hope they survive and do not harm innocent bystanders.



I'm tired of American people targeting Muslims. I'm tired of hearing Muslim countries call for Jihads. I'm tired of the millennia-old strife between the Israelis and the Muslims in Jerusalem (not that I'm forgetting the Christian's Crusades, as well). Heck, I'm tired of my mother believing that my gayness is a sin.



But I don't mean to rant on religion. I appreciate the fundamental idea of it--filling a spiritual need in our lives, giving us comfort in knowing there's meaning or a plan in our lives, etc. But I don't want religion involved in this war. I don't want the US involved in this war.

[xita]

I am sick of CNN, when they aren't criticizing IRAQ for miscalculating how mighty the american army is , they are congratulating themselves on their amazing resources and how the military gets information from them. War via webcam, thanks a lot CNN.

-----------------------------------

Only 50 cents

[friskylez]

My opinion is, no one wants war, no one likes war...I seriously doubt Bush woke up one morning and said hey ill think ill invade Iraq so i can piss off the world...He had information and he made a decision based on that information...



It will be interesting to see if world opinion changes when the Iraqi people speak out once SH is ousted and we find out what was really going on in that country.....



Until i know, im going to hold off judgement on what has ensued...Im not gonna bash the US (and im not saying anyone is) and im not suddenly going to become ashamed

of being an American (im not saying anyone is)...



"I may not agree with what you have to say, but i will defend to the death your right to say it.." Those who have served in wars past and this one now, have done just that.. JMO

"Life is what happens while waiting for your ship to come in"

Edited by: friskylez  at: 3/22/03 2:08:30 am

[Kieli]

I don't think Bush spontaneously came up with that thought. I think he really does think that we're right in invading Iraq. I don't believe for one instance that our president did not have access to information or resources that could've led to a peaceful solution. He just conveniently chose to overlook them. I AM embarrassed for my country mostly because we are so much better than the foaming-at-the-mouth warmongering that we're reduced ourselves to in the eyes of the world. Like we needed to help that view along any more. Just because I am embarrassed doesn't make me any less proud to be an American. I am just glad I didn't vote for the man.



Honestly? I don't think the Iraqis will speak out after SH is gone anymore than the Afghans did once we went in and rattled the Taliban cages. I doubt we'll ever really know what went on in those two countries. There are too many spin doctors in our media and government to muddy the waters.

Love is tricky. It is never mundane or daily. You can never get used to it. You have to walk with it, then let it walk with you. You can never balk. It moves you like the tide. It takes you out to sea then lays you on the beach again. Today's struggling pain is the foundation for a certain stride through the heavens. You can run from it but you can never say no. It includes everyone."--Amy Tan "The Hundred Secret Secret Senses"

[saule77]

Whatever is going on at the moment, I really hope that once the war is over, they DO find weapons of mass destruction and biochemical weapons, because if they don't... That'd mean that there was ABSOLUTELY no reason to attack Iraq in the first place. The whole "preemptive war" thing on which the Allies are basing their attack would have no ground to stand on. And that thought makes me shiver.



It would mean that Saddam Hussein wouldn't have had the capibility to do whatever he was thought to do. That he was a dictator, just like most of the others. Which, in itself, is not enough to be declared war to by an outside country.

Don't get me wrong, I have no sympathy for such a man. Hundreds of thousands have died under his regime. All I'm saying is that the only danger he represented was to his own country and people. Does that make him a worse dictator than others? Why focus on HIM?



The Allies would have a lot to answer for then. Including the first casualties they encountered yesterday. 12 British and 4 American soldiers. In an helicopter crash. Probably dead for nothing. And I won't even mention the Iraqui casualties...



The Allies would have a lot to answer for...

"You are Willow Rosenberg, vixen-y lighter of the flame and keeper of my heart."

(Camp Flutie by Rane)

[Blue Pariah]

Want to know why the war is really being fought?



Read this site:



www.cbc.ca/news/iraq/issues_analysis/realitycheck030317.html



And then this one:



www.newamericancentury.org/



And then weep for us all.



Then go to the site we'll all need:



titaniumcounter.com/temp/emergency/



Because if you can't laugh at the government's terrorism response plans, then what can you laugh at?

I take to shade and I play in the shadows
I watch my back and I play it cool
"Blue Pariah" by BRJ

[justin]

Kieli wrote

Quote:

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Some people gave me hell for comparing Bush to Hitler.

---

You're not the only person to make this comparison. The main similarity being they have both used an agressive foreign policy to draw attention away from their domestic policy's.



I am very much against this war. I know that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and that the Iraqi people are probably suffering under his regime (particularly the Kurdish people) but if that becomes a justification for war then when does it stop? There are a lot of country's run by tyrants, whose people suffer. Anyway I doubt if helping the Iraqi people is the goal of this war so much as crippling Iraqs military forces so that it's no longer seen as a threat to the international community.



Blue Pariah, are those sites for real? I'm having a lot of trouble believing that anyone could think those things.

I understand, you should be with the person you l-love


I am

[oneyedchicklet]

For the most part, I am proud to be an American but I tend to feel embarassed when things like this happen. I strongly believe that Bush is trying to finish what was started by his father. We've had 12 years to put behind us Desert Storm only to have it all over again.

We found out on Monday that a good friend of mine who is a Marine, has been moved to Kuwait. He is a career Marine and usually gaurds American Embassy's around the world but was given the orders to move last week. I fear for him as I fear for the hundreds of thousands of other men and women in the military. I also fear for the lives of the innocent that will/have been subjected to this.

Yesterday, 5 teenagers duct taped themselves together in protest of the war only to be untaped and taken away in handcuffs by police. They weren't distructive or violent, yet they were placed under arrest. Now I ask, what ever happened to our "Right to assemble peacefully"? The last time I check, it was one of our Constitutional Rights as Americans.

I hope this ends quickly with as little casualties on all sides as possible. May God bless all.



Love to All,

Barb

I'd sacrifice all those nights if I could make the earth and my dreams the same. The only difference is to let love replace all our hate. So lets go there, lets make our escape.

[darkmagicwillow]

Xita, your post on education got me thinking about that topic. The letters to the editor about this war have been amazingly poorly informed, about both American government and history. While the little kids can't be blamed for having simplistic views, what about the textbook committees who foist overly simplistic history books on the high school students?



How many people out there were taught in their American history classes that World War I ended in 1918? Okay. How many were taught that the fighting went on for almost 10 more years in Eastern Europe and the Middle East, with American-supported German troops occupying much of western Russia, Allied-sponsored Greek armies invading Turkey, Allied-sponsored Polish armies invading Russia, and direct American and Allied invasions of Russia from 1918-1922?



These selective edits to history aren't dangerous simply because they portray America as always being in the right, but also because they portray war and reconstruction as being much simpler than they are, allowing Bush and previous presidents to sell people on short wars with a simple moral resolution and a complete solution in a quick rebuilding.



History is also important for perspective. The British Empire sustained itself with a navy twice the size of the next largest navy; the American navy is larger than all the other navies of the world today and the American "defence" budget is larger than the other top 10 budgets combined. It would be clear even in a country with enemies on its borders, which the U.S. doesn't have, that that's too large to be purely for defence. It's also worth pointing out that history has shown in the British Empire and so many others that having a huge military cannot sustain a state in the long term, as the overexpenditure of funds on the military drains the state's economic strength until it cannot support its military any longer.

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

Edited by: darkmagicwillow at: 3/21/03 6:56:35 am

[cassiopeia191]

Quote:

---

The main similarity being they [SH and Hitler] have both used an agressive foreign policy to draw attention away from their domestic policy's.

---

justin, I can't agree with you on that because Hitler didn't start the war against Poland which led to WWII because he wanted to draw attention away from Germany's domestic policy, war was one of his main goals, expressed in Mein Kampf and his plans were to invade the rest of the world and be the sole superpower in it -- this is a similarity to Bush although I think you should be careful about it. I generally think that references to the Nazi regime aren't too appropriate in this situation although this comparison is truly the worst insult one can bestow upon Bush, but still it doesn't work.



What is especially scary about this scenario is the hype that comes along with it...I remember the terminology used by Rumsfeld in pre-war days which was insulting and frightening in its ignorance of diplomacy and simplest rules of interaction between people. Now, we hear reports about people burning CDs of the Dixie Chicks (who impressed and suprised me with their frankness) or of German and French artist...when I heard a report on this yesterday, I unvoluntarily had to think of Nazis burning books, written by politically or racially "inconvenient" authors, in 1933 and again, I wonder why people can't see how dangerous this is! Sometimes I think it would be better not to comment on actions like these because I don't want to dignify those acts of immaturity with a comment. But why? Where does all this come from?



I'm implaccably opposed to this war as I can't see how it could be politically or morally justified by any means. I also don't understand how people can talk about "winning" this war, which is nothing but an absolute failure of humanity and politics, like any war. Europe has had the experience of wars at home instead of abroad, which is the kind of war the US are accustomed to lead, and I am proud that people have learned from it. War is wrong, especially when it is a war one has chosen to lead and therefore not justified. In addition to this, the Bush administration's arguments seem highly hypocritical to me: in the beginning of the 1980s, the US and the UK have supported Iraq and its biological/chemical-weapons-systems to build a strong opponent against Iran and Ajatollah Chomeini. I don't see Bush's intentions...what is it that he wants? Protecting people is a nice thing but made impossible by dropping bombs on them, killing them and having the recklessness to say that this is all for their own good.

Really, I mean no offense to anyone because I realize it is a sensitive issue, but the argument that Iraq hasn't been following the UN resolutions for the past 12 years and so a war is justified, seems bizarre to me when I look at Israel and how this country hasn't been fulfilling their resolution for twenty-something years. First, it is quite unbelievable that the US pretend to "protect" the UN when all they do is weaken and disrepect it and second, where's the consistency here? It's no wonder that the Arab world feels it is attacked and not treated in a fair fashion when Israel can do the same thing (I'm not talking about SH, I mean the resolution) and not have to carry the consequences.



Woodrow Wilson introduced the idea of the United Nations and the damage done to it during the process of the last year is immense. Ironically, the one country who claims to be the one who knows the values of freedom and democracy best, has decided to weaken and disrespect the UN, to introduce a new world order with the US standing above every one. Of course, every war America ever leads is just so it is okay to let them decide when the time has come to do so...the possibility of a pre-emptive strike brings high risks wth it. One country alone can decide to lead a war when it feels athreat...old ideals of equality and innocence until proven guilty...all thrown away. This is a dark time.



I apologize for the length of this post but this is an issue that's been troubling me for a long time and I have a strong opinion on it, especially because I love the US and spent an amazing time with awesome people there -- it's hard to believe that the same country's government will just throw away fundamental values...break international law...kill civilians in a war it is eager to lead...mistreat their allies and friends...for what?



Lisa

"Oh, isn't life a terrible thing, thank God?"

[justin]

Quote:

---

this is a similarity to Bush although I think you should be careful about it. I generally think that references to the Nazi regime aren't too appropriate in this situation although this comparison is truly the worst insult one can bestow upon Bush, but still it doesn't work.

---

You're right about the need to be careful when making comparisons to Natziism. Because, as you say, it is a terrible, and unjustified, comparison and also because, like calling someone a communist, it can be something of a kneejerk reaction.

Which is probably why on Usenet as soon as someone mentions Nazis the debate is considered to be over.

I understand, you should be with the person you l-love


I am

[Kieli]

I disagree that the comparison is unjustified. Hitler started out small and got a taste of power. He managed to use his charisma and intelligence to sway a country that was facing economic hardships. President Hindenberg was loathe to give Hitler the chancellorship but by then AH was so popular he had no choice. AH was good at telling the people what they wanted to hear and rousing intense patriotic feelings in the Germans of the time. While Bush is not an Anti-Semite or Anti-Muslim proponent (that we know of), some parallels are just to difficult to ignore.



Bush is doing pretty much the same thing...we have a country that has been in economic straits for almost three years, 9/11 had severely depleted the nation's spirits and he needed a solution, someone to blame since his intelligence services have not as yet caught the TRUE culprit, Osama Bin Laden and his cronies. When in doubt, give the public a war to distract them from the troubles at home. Give the public something to feel good about and restore pride. While racial and world domination was Hitler's ultimate goal, in some respect you can see where people would see that Bush's agenda is similar. He's flouting UN policy while claiming to enforce them, he's attacked a country without having the proper evidence for the provocation (Hitler didn't bother with the UN...he just ran roughshod over half of Europe and dared anyone to stop him). The differences between WWII and the Iraq War are that (thank god!) many people have learned from the mistakes of the past and are no longer supporting a leader just because he runs the country. People are stepping up to voice their concerns about this atrocity and in the process are being branded as traitors. Apparently the propaganda machine works extremely well in any age. While Bush may not be the monster Hitler was, his methods and justifications are no less deplorable.



At this point, one can wonder where it will end? People are burning the Dixie Chicks CDs in the streets. Did the Nazis not promote book burning and burning of other "subversive" material deemed traitorous and unseemly? The problem is, how to control the mob mentality once it has been set loose. We can't afford to have another Holocaust. If we're not careful, we could easily slip into one. Internment camps could very well come back. There are a few politicians who still think that they were a necessary evil back then. What's to say they won't think that they are a necessary evil for this situation (Iraq War)?



You see these things snowball. They fall apart. What starts out as well meaning could be totally disastrous. Hitler probably did mean well when he first started out. He probably did only want the best for Germany. But somehow things went awry and so horribly horribly wrong. America saw the signs then and did nothing until it was almost too late. It could happen here and please don't delude yourselves and think that it can't. It wouldn't take much. Seeing the way that the Dixie Chicks and other war dissenters are being treated proves that. We can't say that Bush could "never" be like that because the truth is we have no idea. No one can know the potential of a leader until its effects are felt. I'm sure many Germans thought of Adolf Hitler as a saviour and good man at the time. What came out of it was more frightening than any one of them could have imagined.



I love my country and I sure as hell don't want to see it slandered. But reason has to come to fore. We can't kid ourselves and cover ourselves in our Flag and say "My country Do or Die". It no longer works that way. We supposedly learn about past history in order not to repeat the mistakes. Let's hope our politicians finally put into practice what they have learned.



For more information, these sites are helpful:

search.biography.com/print_record.pl?id=5537

www.holocaust-trc.org/wmp07.htm

www.us-israel.org/jsource/Holocaust/hitlertoc.html



End rant.



T.

Love is tricky. It is never mundane or daily. You can never get used to it. You have to walk with it, then let it walk with you. You can never balk. It moves you like the tide. It takes you out to sea then lays you on the beach again. Today's struggling pain is the foundation for a certain stride through the heavens. You can run from it but you can never say no. It includes everyone."--Amy Tan "The Hundred Secret Secret Senses"

[Diebrock]

Quote:

---

How many were taught that the fighting went on for almost 10 more years in Eastern Europe and the Middle East, with American-supported German troops occupying much of western Russia, Allied-sponsored Greek armies invading Turkey, Allied-sponsored Polish armies invading Russia, and direct American and Allied invasions of Russia from 1918-1922?

---

darkmagicwillow, I'm really doubting that German troops where anywhere in Russia, much less occupying parts of it after WWI (and before WWII).

Because of the October revolution Germany and Russia came to a truce and peace treaty 1917/18, long before the "official" end of the war in 1918. After Germany lost the war, it had to disarm and pay high reparations. There were no German troops left to deploy to Russia, with or without the Entente's knowledge. Poland tried to get their old borders back which lead to the war with Russia, that I know. But Germany was not at war from 1918 until 1939 and there was no occupation of foreign soil until 1938.

Believe me, if there is one nation that learns all its horrible and gory history in school, it is Germany. And I have never heard of that despite a history major.



And here's a quote that I had to think about often in the last months. It's from someone who knew what he was talking about



Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a parliament or a communist dictatorship ... Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country.

Hermann Göring



And to cheer people up a bit

www.wereldcrisis.nl/mod.php?mod=qtvideo&movie=Readmylips.mov

_____________________

"MURDERERS! Remember Orca!!! Free Willy!!!" Yun-kyung bellowed. "The shark in Jaws was just misunderstood!" - Castaway
I've kissed her best friend. I've reached into her best friend's pocket and fished around for keys. And I gave her best friend my number. I must be doing something totally, totally wrong... - TBSOL by Dreams

[urnofosiris]

Oh rofl Diebrock, I wanted to say something clever and serious, but I clicked on that link first. What a cute couple.

Excuse me while I go compose myself. Hee.

-------------------------


Coffee, Food, Kisses and Gay Love........Get it while you are hot

[Kendahl897]

I just have three words to say---'WAG THE DOG'

[friskylez]

The very freedom we have in this country allows us the opportunity to come to this board and say how we feel, without fear of retribution..How many political prisoners are there around the world because they spoke out against their government..



We are not imprisoned because we are gay while in other countries people are..There are people from other countries who would give their right arm to be living in the United States right now regardless of this war...



I am not for this war, but there aint nothin i can do to make

it be over with..I can only pray that Bush made the right decision, im just glad i didnt have to do it..



If you want to say you hate this war, more power to ya, protest it, bash Bush, whatever..But i really dont like hearing

Bush compared to Hitler and in my opinion the United States is no nazi Germany...One man made this decision, not a country, not the people that live in this country...



I was a hippie, young as i was, in the 60s, a feminist in the 70s and in the 80s i joined the Army..It didnt change me or the way i thought, just gave me a greater respect for the country i live in..





There are lots of things id like to see changed and ill do what i can to change them..Mistakes have been made, we as a country are not perfect but ya know nothing in life is..

"Life is what happens while waiting for your ship to come in"

Edited by: friskylez  at: 3/28/03 3:01:31 am

[Verdant]

After 9/11 the press, the president and many everyday people seemed mystified as to why anyone would do such a horrible thing.



Anyone who said, "we deserved it" was treated like a traitor and a pariah.



I ask now -- is there any half-way intelligent American who still wonders why 9/11 happened?



I'll say it again -- As awful as that event was, America brought it on itself. Our agressive policy of changing regimes wherever it best suits our corporate interest has only gotten stronger and more out of hand and now it is out in the open for the world community to see.



It is a shameful moment for our country and for most Americans who have lived in denial of our disgusting dirty dealing, secret wars and greedy foriegn policy for too long.



I ask this in all sincerity to any Germans out there. How did your parents/grandparents deal with the shame of having been part of a country that perpetrated such acts? Americans are going to need your support and insight in the coming months/years/decades -- however long this drags on. National shame is a very weird feeling to be a part of.



I honestly love my country. The land I live on, my friends, my freedoms and I don't take any of it lightly. I understand the difference between patriotism and nationalism. I consider myself a patriot (I love my country) and I condem nationalists (my country is better and more worthy than any other, therefore everyone who is a percieved threat should be put down and converted to my style of government) for their narrow view.



Perhaps some of you will commiserate when I say that this war brings back all my feelings of despair from losing Tara, only tenfold more because it's real people getting killed and real people deciding the fate of other real people.



My hopes, prayers, and thoughts of peace go out to the world tonight, and especially every one in Iraq living under a dictatorship about to be squashed by the American Empire.



I would also like to add that now is the time when civil liberties will be stripped away at an even more alarming rate than they have been under the "war on terror" and the "war on drugs." Be alert to how law that "protect you" really hurt your freedom. This is where the real parallel to Nazism is.



Here's some food for thought in the Bush v. Hitler debate:



"Of course the people don't want war... That is understood. But... it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country." --Hermann Goering at the Nuremberg trials



Also as a final note -- thank you Xita and everyone else for providing this intelligent forum. There are few places to talk about these things without it degenerating into a screaming match.

____________________

Maybe you wanna put some ice on it.

[darkmagicwillow]

Yes, Germany and Russia ended their conflict with the treaty of Brest-Litovsk, with Russia ceding much of the Baltic region, Byelorussia, and the Ukraine to Germany. German occupation forces moved into these territories after the treaty was signed in March 1918. However, after the November 11th, 1918 armistice with Germany, the Allied Powers asked the German armies in those territories to remain to prevent the Bolsheviks from taking them. In fact, this was part of the armistice agreement, Germany being required to evacuate all former Russian territories "as soon as the allies shall think the moment suitable, having regard to the internal situation of those territories." No new German forces were sent into Russia and no new territory was occupied, but those that were there stayed at the request of the Allied powers.



You may not have heard of it, but the evidence is there in the armistice, and Estonia celebrates June 23rd as Victory Day for their 1919 victory over the German 8th army led by General von der Goltz. Here's an online article on the post-war German occupation of the Baltics.

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"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

[Kieli]

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The very freedom we have in this country allows us the opportunity to come to this board and say how we feel, without fear of retribution..How many political prisoners are there around the world because they spoke out against their government..

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Really? Then why are peaceful protesters of this war being arrested by the thousands? Sounds a bit like retribution to me. Why were the supporters of Senator Byrd quickly silenced in the Congressional Gallery when they clapped for him? True we are freer than most but that could change on a dime. I don't take it for granted, trust me. I know that it could go away at any moment if the latitude were given, Constitution or no.

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If you want to say you hate this war, more power to ya, protest it, bash Bush, whatever..But i really dont like hearing

Bush compared to Hitler and in my opinion the United States is no nazi Germany...One man made this decision, not a country, not the people that live in this country...

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A country didn't make the decision for Nazism, I hate to tell you. It was made for them. They either embraced it or lived in fear of recrimination. Initially people thought that Hitler was doing the "right thing", doing great things for their country. By the time some realized they were being misled, it was too late. What helped pull the wool over the eyes of the people was a ton of propaganda, an extremely charismatic leader, and a willingness to believe nothing wrong was going on or being done. Who would want to admit that people were being persecuted by their strong leader who promised them the world?

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There are lots of things id like to see changed and ill do what i can to change them..Mistakes have been made, we as a country are not perfect but ya know nothing in life is..

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True mistakes have been made and no one is perfect. But that is no reason to make that excuse time and time again. Usually when one makes a mistake or sees others have made mistakes, one would think one would have learned from them instead of continuously perpetuating the cycle.

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We are not imprisoned because we are gay while in other countries people are..

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You DID know that there are anti-sodomy laws in several states still here in the US right? Which means that gays can be imprisoned if caught or even thought to be breaking that law. Ask the men here in TX who were arrested while having consensual gay sex in the privacy of their homes. Don't kid yourself. Just because it's not as rampant as it seems to be in other parts of the world, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. There are still vehement opposition to legislation to protect gays in this country, so many of us are literally taking our lives into our hands by being out (this depends on your location in this country).



The US is not a utopia and it has great people living in it. Our leaders though, leave something to be desired. Which is my point. Don't blindly follow someone because they are your leader. Use your mind! Question and for christ's sake don't just assume that every leader we have in this country actually knows what's best or even what the hell they are doing. If an actor can be president so can anyone else. He is a common man and not royalty and is not permitted dictatorial privileges. True, he is going to make mistakes. He is human. But it's also just common decency to own up to those mistakes and admit it when one is wrong.

Love is tricky. It is never mundane or daily. You can never get used to it. You have to walk with it, then let it walk with you. You can never balk. It moves you like the tide. It takes you out to sea then lays you on the beach again. Today's struggling pain is the foundation for a certain stride through the heavens. You can run from it but you can never say no. It includes everyone."--Amy Tan "The Hundred Secret Secret Senses"

[Diebrock]

Okay, so I stand corrected.

I was looking for seperate actions against Russia and didn't think about the ceded territories. My bad.

Thanks for the explanation.

_____________________

"MURDERERS! Remember Orca!!! Free Willy!!!" Yun-kyung bellowed. "The shark in Jaws was just misunderstood!" - Castaway
I've kissed her best friend. I've reached into her best friend's pocket and fished around for keys. And I gave her best friend my number. I must be doing something totally, totally wrong... - TBSOL by Dreams

[Nix42]

I got these stats through the post this morning (from Amnesty)



Humanitarian organisations and leaked UK draft planning documents estimate the human cost of war with Iraq to be:



50,000 civilian deaths

500,000 civilian injuries

2,000,000 refugee and displaced people

10,000,000 in need or humanitarian assistance



I just hope someone's got a plan to sort out the aftermath of the war.



IMO this war is more about economics and ego, not freedom and democracy; that makes me sad.

If Mrs Whitehouse saw this, she'd have our collective danglies in a Magi-Mix

Gus Hedges, Drop the Dead Donkey

[darkmagicwillow]

I can't agree that Bush is more than superficially like Hitler. He's not the first leader of a country, or president of the U.S., to start a war abroad in an attempt to distract from problems at home nor is he the only one who's attempted to supress dissent at home to some extent (the Alien and Sedition acts date all the way back to 1798, just a few years after the Bill of Rights.) Those are ancient traditions, and what makes Hitler a monster is more than that, which causes this comparison to obscure the issue and, perhaps more importantly, convinces many people not to listen to anything you say after that.



However, this is not to say that you shouldn't protest the war or watch Bush carefully. The anti-terrorism measures passed on Bush's behalf since 9/11 are truly scary encroachments on our freedoms, and the needs of war have always been used to justify further increase in the powers of government and further reductions of our freedoms. Watchfulness will help ensure that no president does attain the powers of a dictator.



Diebrock, no problem. It's not a well known part of history, which is one of the reasons I brought it up.

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"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."