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GLBT News

The place for kittens to discuss GLBT (gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgendered) issues as well as topics that don't fit in the other forums. (Some topics are off-topic in every forum on the board. Please read the FAQs.)

Re: Politicians with too much time on their hands in Minneso

Postby TemperedCynic » Mon Mar 10, 2003 6:45 pm

Xita - I will be happy to keep the Board up to date on the situation and what the Kittens can do to help. Emails are zipping through the ether as I post this update.



sprhrgrl - Eloquently stated for such a situation. Bollocks! for good measure. You are accurate with the idea that everyone must stay vigilant. It just seems ludicrous to modify a ten-year-old statement of rights that held little controversy until this bill was introduced. Man, I need a Guinness!



tommo - Couldn't agree more. I heard tell that the representative that introduced House Bill 341 quickly backed away, saying "I have enough headaches". Ooooo, you reminded me! Thank you, tommo! This article shows the whole impact:
Quote:
House Bill 341 goes so far as to remove sexual orientation from the list of attributes defining Holocaust survivors and victims, thereby appearing to excuse Nazi atrocities against the GLBT population during World War II.
That passage should make any intelligent person interested in basic human rights shudder.



Penrose Queen - Nora, I'm assuming Mankato or Winona for your school location. Blue Earth and Winona counties, like many outlying areas off-campus, are "a little right of Attila the Hun". The Twin Cities (Minneapolis and St. Paul) have always prided themselves in diversity awareness for public and private businesses. I hope we can show you a better side of our state, since this is shaping up to be an interesting test of wills.



sam7777 - ACK! Massachusetts, too!?!?!?! I'm going into apoplexy! Never expected the opposition to be so strong there. Your statement:
Quote:
I wish that we could see more stable and long term gay couples on TV. That would help people who may never have met a gay person be more accepting of gay marriage.
struck a chord with me, since that is the exact reason I joined the Board - Joss doesn't realize the atmosphere in the country, currently. Had Tara lived, the example these two characters provided would speak volumes in battles such as these.



Basic rights, TC style - "the right to be left alone".





Edited - 3/12/2003: The moment I hear anything, I will get back to the Kittens. I'm working to coordinate a plan of action, but my emails weren't returned today *sigh*.

Senator Norm Coleman, R. Minn., has asked for a retraction of State Rep. Lindner's Nazi comments. Rep. Lindner, a conservative Christian, also had this to say about the Dalai Lama in 2001. Another example that truth is stranger than fiction.


More than any other time in history, mankind faces a crossroads. One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness. The other, to total extinction. Let us pray we have the wisdom to choose correctly. Woody Allen (1935 - )

Edited by: TemperedCynic at: 3/12/03 4:30:06 pm
TemperedCynic
 


Speaking of Minnesota...

Postby superherofan » Wed Mar 12, 2003 1:45 am

The man responsible for the proposed bill to remove gays and lesbians from state protection, Minnesota state Rep. Arlon Lindner, believes gays were never persecuted by the Nazis, according to the 365gay.com article



There's more allegations in this article.

Edited by: superherofan at: 3/11/03 11:49:26 pm
superherofan
 


Re: Speaking of Minnesota...

Postby Patches » Wed Mar 12, 2003 3:22 am

Quote:
The man responsible for the proposed bill to remove gays and lesbians from state protection, Minnesota state Rep. Arlon Lindner, believes gays were never persecuted by the Nazis, according to the 365gay.com article




Okay, it's late and I'm not particularily articulate - but where the f**k does this idiot think the pink triangle came from. Shocked qualifies as the understatement of the centruy. Unbelievable, absolutely unbelievable.



If there's anything we non US people can do, please let us know.

You know I've heard about people like me. But I never made the connection. They walk one road to set them free, And find they've gone the wrong direction. But there's no need for turning back 'cause all roads lead to where I stand. And I believe I'll walk them all No matter what I may have planned

Patches
 


coming out survey

Postby Amymlc » Wed Mar 12, 2003 1:38 pm

Hi I got this from my school Pride list serve:



Would you please forward this to the list? Thanks very much.



-----------------------------



My name is Maria Dittrich and I am a 5th year doctoral student in the

Clinical Psychology program at The George Washington University. I am

writing to you to ask for your participation in a survey of the process

of coming out to one’s family. This survey is for my dissertation and

project is approved by the GWU Office of Human Research

(IRB#U010307ER), whose contact information appears below. I am

interested in hearing from people who do not identify as heterosexual.

The survey is online at



survey.gwu.edu/survey/ind...EY_ID=3124



The password you will need is EAGLE (all caps or lowercase is fine).

It should take less than 30 minutes to complete.



I would also like to ask you to forward this web address to anyone else

you know who might want to participate, especially a) non-college

students and b) adults with no siblings. I want to be sure to reach as

broad a representation of non-hetero people as possible.



If you know of people who might want to participate who do not have

access to a computer or who would prefer a traditional pencil-and-paper

survey, they may contact me at the address below to obtain a survey.

If you have any questions at all, please feel free to contact me at

maria23@gwu.edu. Thank you very much.



Sincerely,



Maria L. Dittrich

GWU Department of Psychology

2125 G Street NW

Washington, DC 20052

maria23@gwu.edu



Office of Human Research

2300 Eye St., NW - Ross Hall 712

Washington, DC 20037

Phone: 202.994.2715 Fax: 202.994.0465

Amymlc
 


Re: Speaking of Minnesota...

Postby TemperedCynic » Thu Mar 13, 2003 6:09 pm

Outfront Minnesota is our largest GLBT organization, and all my email responses from my contacts pointed to them. And what do you know - a Kitten works in the office! Iarlais has sent my email to their Public Policy Director. They are super-busy, as you can imagine, so I should have something by Monday.




More than any other time in history, mankind faces a crossroads. One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness. The other, to total extinction. Let us pray we have the wisdom to choose correctly. Woody Allen (1935 - )

TemperedCynic
 


Canadian military chaplains ready to bless gay marriages

Postby Kalita » Fri Mar 14, 2003 10:37 pm

Wow, front page in the Post! Someone must really be offended. :p (For the non-Canadians: the National Post is as ultraconservative as you can get in the Canadian newspaper industry.) Their page here.





Military chaplains ready to bless gay marriages

Defence officials say there is nothing to prevent it



Tom Blackwell



National Post



Military chaplains are considering offering same-sex marriage ceremonies as a gesture to help homosexual service people feel more at ease in the Canadian Armed Forces.



Anglican ministers within the army are discussing making themselves available for "blessings" of gay and lesbian couples.



A Defence Department official said there is nothing stopping a chaplain from officiating at the union of a gay or lesbian soldier.



"I would dearly love to be free to celebrate such ministry if requested by a couple to do so," Major John Fletcher, a senior Anglican chaplain, said in a recent letter. "At present, my Church does not permit this. But I believe that God is not finished with any of us yet."



Some United Church chaplains have already decided they will perform such services if requested, a Church spokeswoman said yesterday.



Maj. Fletcher said in an interview he and fellow Anglican chaplains are "open for business on the question" and had planned to resolve the issue among themselves this year. But they have put off the debate until the Church as a whole addresses it at a meeting of its general synod next year.



The Anglican Church currently forbids same-sex marriage ceremonies.



As is the case among Anglican clergy elsewhere, those in the armed forces are divided on the issue, he said.



"Many of my colleagues would be desirous to seeing some decisions made around these questions," Maj. Fletcher said.



"I know just as many who would say, 'Let's not open this can of worms. Let's not go there. It's only going to cause pain and division.' "



An evangelical minister who has launched a human rights battle against the military chaplaincy said he is concerned that same-sex marriages are even being contemplated.



Chaplains are required to leave out references to Jesus and other exclusively Christian terminology in public services directed to troops of all faiths, so as not to offend non-Christian personnel, said Reverend Sheldon Johnston of the Church of God in Canada.



Yet, the forces are willing to allow gay ceremonies that would be objectionable to many members of Pentecostal denominations like his, he said.



"It's concerning that a public official, a chaplain with a Maple Leaf sewn on his sleeve, would be conducting services we wouldn't approve of," Rev. Johnston said.



"These same-sex blessings are offensive to a number of Christian groups, as well as Muslims and some Jewish groups."



The thorny gay marriage issue came to a head last summer when an Ontario court ruled that the federal ban on marriage between gay and lesbian couples was illegal.



The federal government has appealed the judgment, but is also considering changing the law to legalize such unions, or just leaving the marriage business entirely to churches.



Meanwhile, a few churches have performed same-sex marriage ceremonies or blessings that do not have legal standing.



The United Church of Canada is the only major Christian denomination to give the green light to its clergy in the area. It is up to each parish and its governing body to decide whether to offer the service, said Reverend Jackie Harper, a spokeswoman for the United Church general council.



Among United Church chaplains in the armed forces, some have agreed to perform the ceremonies, while others have decided against it, she said. Rev. Harper said she was unaware of any having been performed within the forces to date.



The Defence Department would certainly not stand in the way of a same-sex ceremony involving its personnel, said Lieutenant-Colonel Dave Kettle, a spokesman for the Chaplain-General's office.



The decision is up to individual chaplains and their churches, he said.





"...not many people understood the karmic value of grilled cheese."

-Tara, Blue Athame's Angels and Goddesses

Kalita
 


lesbian moms in new jersey

Postby La » Sat Mar 15, 2003 11:03 am

from the Advocate online:



www.advocate.com/new_news...d=03/13/03



New Jersey court rules for lesbian moms

A lesbian couple in New Jersey will both be listed as parents on the birth certificate of the baby they're expecting in May, a judge has ruled. State officials said it is the first time that two women related to an unborn child have tried to get both their names listed on a birth certificate. One partner is carrying the child, and the other provided the egg; they plan to raise the child together. The ruling, issued Tuesday by Sussex County family court judge James A. Farber, means that the women, who prefer to remain unidentified, will share a financial obligation to the child as soon as it is born and that if one parent dies, the other will automatically have custody.



Analysts said the case is unusual because when lesbian couples have a child together, the woman who delivers the baby is usually listed as the mother on the birth certificate. Her partner must then adopt the child because she is not genetically related, and the court process for adoption can take six months or longer.



The woman who provided the egg in this case told The [Bergen County] Record that she hopes the ruling will help other couples. The women live in northern New Jersey and have been together for seven years; they said they pursued in vitro fertilization after one of them tried unsuccessfully to conceive with her own eggs and artificial insemination.



~La



"A science-fiction movie? I think I have made a science-fiction movie:

Chasing Amy. Because you go ask any lesbian--that'll never happen."

~Kevin Smith

La
 


Texas Gay Rights Case

Postby skittles » Mon Mar 24, 2003 6:49 am

From CNN.com:



Case of 2 Texas men turns into major gay rights battle

click here for original article at CNN

Sunday, March 23, 2003 Posted: 5:26 PM EST (2226 GMT)



HOUSTON (AP) -- John Lawrence and Tyron Garner could be called accidental activists.



More than four years ago, police burst into Lawrence's apartment _ sent there by a bogus report of an armed intruder -- to find the two men engaged in consensual sex. The pair were jailed overnight and charged with breaking Texas' Homosexual Conduct Law, which bans oral and anal sex between people of the same gender.



These days Lawrence and Garner keep a low profile, but their case challenging the Texas statute -- and by extension, sodomy laws in 12 other states -- has made it all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court.



Gay-rights activists regard Wednesday's arguments as one of the most important legal challenges for decades: In 1986, the high court upheld a now-defunct sodomy law in Georgia. To the Texas government and its allies, the case is about the right of states to promote the moral standards of their communities.



"It's one more battle, one more step," said Annise Parker, the only openly gay member of the Houston City Council. "I think there will be a huge celebration if we win it."



The men's arrest in September 1998 attracted relatively little attention, and they declined through attorneys to be interviewed. But from the start, they felt their arrest was unfair.



Garner said in court in 1998 that he hoped the law would change and, "I feel like my civil rights were violated and I wasn't doing anything wrong." Lawrence called his arrest "sort of Gestapo."



But once they pleaded no contest and each paid $200 fines, Lawrence and Garner faded out of public view.



"These are people who were arrested in their bedroom," said Patricia Logue, an attorney with the Lambda Legal Defense & Education Fund, which has handled the case since early on. "They never chose to have that invasion of privacy. This is something they believe in, of course, but it's not a battle they chose."



Logue and the men's other attorneys contend the Texas law is unconstitutional for two reasons: it authorizes impermissible intrusion into citizens' private lives and violates the Equal Protection Clause by criminalizing certain behavior only for same-sex couples, not for heterosexuals.



But William Delmore III, an assistant district attorney in Harris County, said the high court should leave it to Texas lawmakers and other state legislatures to tackle the issue.



"We feel pretty comfortable that while legislatures are free to repeal statutes of this kind -- and that's a completely appropriate exercise of democracy -- legislatures should remain free to act on principles of morality and retain statutes that are intended to public morality," Delmore said.



He contends the Texas sodomy law doesn't target gays and lesbians the way segregation laws targeted minorities before the high court intervened in 1954 to strike down the "separate but equal" precedent.



"As long as we continue to believe that gambling, prostitution and private drug use should remain subject to governmental regulation and prohibition, I think we're still considering morality an appropriate basis for governmental action," he said.



But many gays and lesbians feel there are singled out for discrimination in employment, custody and adoption when sodomy laws allow them to be labeled habitual criminals.



Texan Connie Moore, a lesbian who runs a small law practice with her partner, is outraged by the statute. The idea that she could be considered a criminal "because I loved a 'her' instead of 'him"' just doesn't cut it, she said.



As recently as 1960, every state had a sodomy law. In 37 states, the statutes have been repealed by lawmakers or blocked by state courts.



Of the 13 states with sodomy laws, four -- Texas, Kansas, Oklahoma and Missouri -- prohibit "deviate sexual intercourse," or oral and anal sex, between same-sex couples. The other nine ban consensual sodomy for everyone: Alabama, Florida, Idaho, Louisiana, Mississippi, North Carolina, South Carolina, Utah and Virginia.



Various groups have filed briefs with the high court either supporting or opposing the Texas law.



Supporters include several states with sodomy laws on the books and conservative groups, including the American Center for Law and Justice, which is affiliated with the Rev. Pat Robertson; Focus on the Family; and the Family Research Council.



"For homosexual activists, this case is their Supreme Court Super Bowl -- the next step in their pursuit of same-sex marriage," said Jan LaRue of Concerned Women for America, which joined those filing briefs supporting the Texas law.



Opponents include the American Bar Association, historians, the NOW Legal Defense and Education Fund and libertarian organizations, such as the Cato Institute and the Institute of Justice.



A brief filed by the Human Rights Campaign and other gay-rights groups evoked Mark Bingham, a gay man believed to have been among passengers who fought terrorists aboard United Flight 93 before it crashed in a Pennsylvania field on September 11, 2001.



"To his country, Mark Bingham is a hero; in Texas, he is a criminal," the brief said.

skittles



"Before I built a wall I'd ask to know

What I was walling in or walling out,

And to whom I was like to give offense." - Robert Frost, Mending Wall

skittles
 


Arkansas School Is Accused of Harassing a Gay Student

Postby skittles » Tue Mar 25, 2003 4:27 pm

Ok, I'm double posting... but I'm mad & this is a different news item.

link to article (registration required)

I have found other articles about this, too:

at http://www.Equality.org and at http://www.365gay.com

Even at the American Civil Liberties Union has an article about it at ALCU.org



From the NYTimes:



Arkansas School Is Accused of Harassing a Gay Student

By TAMAR LEWIN

March 25, 2003



As Thomas McLaughlin tells it, the trouble began when his eighth-grade science teacher overheard him refusing to deny to another boy that he was gay. It got worse that afternoon, when his guidance counselor called his mother at work to tell her he was homosexual.



"The assistant principal called me out of seventh period, asked if my parents knew I was gay, and when I said no, she said I had till 3:40 to tell them or the school would," said Thomas, a 14-year old student at Jacksonville Junior High School in Arkansas.



"I was too upset to sit through eighth period, so I went to the guidance counselor, and she made the call. Later, the science teacher wrote me a four-page handwritten letter about the Bible's teachings on homosexuality, telling me I would be condemned to hell. I threw it out."



That was a more than a year ago.



Since then, the McLaughlin family says, the school has continued to harass Thomas because of his homosexuality. The teachers and administrators who outed Thomas last year now want to silence him, the McLaughlins say, by telling him not to discuss homosexuality in school and disciplining him for doing so. They also say that a different assistant principal called Thomas to his office this year and made him read aloud a Bible passage condemning homosexuality.



The McLaughlins' account is the only one made public so far. The school district, citing student privacy rights, has not provided any details of its actions. The superintendent, Don Henderson, said that he could not respond to the accusations because the facts had not yet been established. Jay Bequette, the lawyer for the district, said he had no comment on the case.



Earlier this month, the American Civil Liberties Union, representing the McLaughlins, wrote to Dr. Henderson, accusing the school of violating Thomas's rights to free speech, equal protection and privacy, and asking for assurances by last Friday that there would be no further violations of Thomas's rights.



"Students should not be punished for being honest about their sexual orientation," Leslie Cooper, a lawyer with the A.C.L.U.'s Lesbian and Gay Rights Project, said. "Jacksonville Junior High School has trampled on Thomas McLaughlin's constitutional rights."



On Friday, the A.C.L.U. deadline, the district released a brief statement on the case, saying: "Based on the information the district has received, the district is unable to substantiate, and therefore denies, the specific allegations set forth in the letter. The district denies that it intentionally violated the student's constitutional rights, and no disciplinary action has been taken because of the student's sexual orientation."



The statement went on to say that if school personnel had "advocated religious beliefs," as the A.C.L.U. asserted, "such action was not appropriate and is not condoned by the district."



The district said it could not comment on a student's confidential disciplinary record without permission from the student and his parents, so without that permission, there would be no further comment.



Ms. Cooper said the A.C.L.U. would take the matter to court, if the school did not provide further assurances about protecting Thomas's rights. "Obviously, they have failed to meet our demands," she said. "We're pleased that they agree that religious preaching is not acceptable in school, but they failed to say that Thomas can speak about being gay."



Thomas said the issue of his sexual orientation first arose when a classmate asked if he liked a certain girl, and he responded that there was a reason he was not attracted to that girl or any other in the school. The other boy then asked if he was gay.



"I said, if I am, I am, and if I'm not, I'm not," Thomas said. "The science teacher overheard us. He told me to stop talking about that stuff. The next thing I know, the assistant principal calls me out of class."



His mother, Delia McLaughlin, said she was shocked that afternoon to get a telephone call from the guidance counselor about her son's sexuality.



"I remember she said he was having feelings for other males," Ms. McLaughlin said. "Those were the words she used. I was upset in the first place that I'm finding out my son's gay, but that it was a school administrator who told me, that was beyond my reasoning. Thomas didn't tell me about the Bible preaching until recently. That's what made me call the A.C.L.U. We're Christians, but this isn't the school's business. It's something for us, the parents, to talk about."



(end of article)

skittles



"Before I built a wall I'd ask to know

What I was walling in or walling out,

And to whom I was like to give offense." - Robert Frost, Mending Wall

skittles
 


Equal Marriage For Same Sex Couples

Postby xita » Thu Mar 27, 2003 11:33 pm

I was sent this article:



Equal Marriage For Same Sex Couples        



Equal Marriage For Same-Sex Couples (http://www.samesexmarriage.ca) documents the struggle of couples in British Columbia, Ontario, and Quebec, as they fight in the courts for the right to marriage. It is expected that these cases will converge in Canada's supreme court of Canada.



We are an advocacy group, working for change, one person at a time, educating the public and responding to social and political challenges to equality.



We are seeking to influence our political leaders through public advocacy.





We need letter writers, emailers, and phone callers to assist us in convincing politicians that it is time to remove this government discrimination.



URL:

www.samesexmarriage.ca

-----------------------------------

Only 50 cents

xita
 


Re: Politicians with too much time on their hands in Minn.

Postby TemperedCynic » Wed Apr 02, 2003 5:55 pm

Kittens can participate in the defeat of HF341 and the Senate version SF545 by going to Outfront Minnesota's Action Alert! page. The page lists contact numbers and email addresses for Gov. Tim Pawlenty and the bill sponsors for both houses.










More than any other time in history, mankind faces a crossroads. One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness. The other, to total extinction. Let us pray we have the wisdom to choose correctly. Woody Allen (1935 - )

TemperedCynic
 


Re: Equal Marriage For Same Sex Couples

Postby Kalita » Wed Apr 02, 2003 8:55 pm

Thanks for the link Xita, Kevin and Joe have quite a spiffy site up! They're following things a lot closer than I am, that's for sure. (Granted, they're one of the couples involved in the suit.)



It is very frustrating and embarassing to se how much of a mockery the Feds' discussion has become; we can only rely on the Supreme Court to keep level heads (as I'm quite sure they will). It would have been nice to see the government do it on their own, though.

"...not many people understood the karmic value of grilled cheese."

-Tara, Blue Athame's Angels and Goddesses

Kalita
 


Re: Vatican questions gay rights

Postby skittles » Wed Apr 02, 2003 9:23 pm

Unfortunately, although this was released yesterday, it doesn't seem to be an April Fool's Day joke...



Here's the link to the article at the Detroit News online, April 1, 2003



perhaps one of the kittens who follows news like this can give us further information... like this WAS an April Fool's Day joke ... please?? :pray



Vatican questions gay rights



April 1, 2003

REUTERS



VATICAN CITY -- A new Vatican book of sexual terms says gays and lesbians are not normal and that countries that allow gay marriages are inhabited by people with "profoundly disordered minds."



The "Lexicon On Ambiguous and Colloquial Terms about Family Life and Ethical Questions," prepared by the Pontifical Council for the Family, went on sale Monday. It runs nearly 900 pages and covers themes such as sexuality.



It says homosexuality stems from an unresolved psychological conflict and that people who want to give gays and lesbians the same legal rights as heterosexuals "deny a psychological problem which makes homosexuality against the social fabric."



Italy's gay community condemned the book. "The Vatican has gone from invective to insults," said Franco Grillini, honorary chairman of Arcigay, Italy's largest gay rights group.

(end of article)

skittles



"Before I built a wall I'd ask to know

What I was walling in or walling out,

And to whom I was like to give offense." - Robert Frost, Mending Wall

skittles
 


Re: Equal Marriage For Same Sex Couples

Postby Patches » Sat Apr 05, 2003 10:40 pm

Hi Xita. My god, you got that before I did, and I live here. Thank you so much for your support.



Yesterday, I received this e-mail from EGALE (Equality Gays And Lesbians Everywhere) regarding the upcoming public hearings. In the last MacLean's Magazine poll, 46% of Canadians supported same sex marriage, 42% opposed, the remaining 12% expressed no view either way. We're very close to attaining the right to legally marry, and although we do carry a majority of support (albeit by a slim margin) the anit-marriage campaign is organized and well funded by religious organizations (and you wonder where all that money you put in the plate on Sunday mornings went). These people make a lot of noise, clamining that they represent the views of the vast "majority" of Canadians. As much as I'd like to rant about this, I'll try to stick to the point.



Canadian Kittens - we need to get out and make our views known. Please write your Federal MP stating your position on same sex marriage and ask him or her to support our rights. Be sure to ask for a written response, clearly stating his or her position and send a copy to EGALE. The MP's can't be allowed to say they don't have the support of their constituency.



Please, be vocal and go to the hearings. My own dream is that when deferment period closes and the final ruling is made in June 2004, I will be able to legally marry my partner on our 10th aniversary (June 27).

~~~~~

Here is the text of the e-mail I received from EGALE - please copy it and send it to everyone you know.

~~~~~



This is a historic time in the struggle for equality! The federal Justice Committee will be holding public hearings on same-sex marriage in Sudbury on Wednesday, April 9, and in Toronto on Thursday, April 10 and on Friday, April 11.



It is important that we get as many people as possible out to these hearings. Please come along to show your support - numbers do matter! Bring friends, family-members, co-workers, and other supporters.



Here are the details for the hearings:



April 9th Sudbury, Ontario (9:00 a.m.-5:00 p.m.)

Palladium South

Ramada Inn, 68 St. Ann Road (705-671-6670)

Egale Support People - Krystie Coyne (miss_guided2000@hotmail.com or 705-674-3373)

Laurie Arron (laurie@egale.ca or 416-532-1088)



Note from Clerk of the Committee: At 4:00 p.m., we will go from panel discussions to a stand-up mike format. People who want to express their views will have until noon to register and, at noon, we will draw thirty names. People will have two minutes each for an oral presentation. Those whose names have not been drawn will have until April 24th to submit a written brief to the Committee.



April 10/11th Toronto, Ontario (8:30 a.m.-5:30 p.m.)

Mount Batten Salon

Delta Chelsea, 33 Gerrard St. West

Egale Support Person - Laurie Arron (laurie@egale.ca or 416-532-1088)



Note from Clerk of the Committee: At 4:30, we will move from panel discussions to a stand-up mike format. People who want to express their views will have until noon to register and, at noon, we will draw thirty names. People will have two minutes each for an oral presentation. Those whose names have not been drawn will have until April 24th to submit a written brief to the Committee.

----------------------------------------------------



The Egale support people will be present for the entire duration of the hearing, and will be able to support witnesses, debrief with them, raise potential concerns with the committee members or the chair, and generally monitor and record the activities of the day. Please feel free to contact them. It may also be possible to arrange car-pooling or other transportation to the hearings, if needed.



Print and radio media will be allowed to cover the hearings, however no cameras will be permitted in the hearing rooms.



Please feel free to contact me if you have any additional questions or comments, and we hope you can make it to these important hearings to support equal marriage!



Sincerely, Kim Vance

Equal Marriage Coordinator, Egale Canada

(kim@egale.ca or 902-889-2288)





You know I've heard about people like me. But I never made the connection. They walk one road to set them free, And find they've gone the wrong direction. But there's no need for turning back 'cause all roads lead to where I stand. And I believe I'll walk them all No matter what I may have planned

Patches
 


Re: Equal Marriage For Same Sex Couples

Postby Kalita » Sun Apr 06, 2003 4:44 pm

Knowing my work schedule and traffic, I doubt I'll make it in unless I skip off early on Thursday or Friday.



Which I just might - I'll have to see if I can swing it with the office folks.



In any case, I will be forwarding this. Thanks!

"...not many people understood the karmic value of grilled cheese."

-Tara, Blue Athame's Angels and Goddesses

Kalita
 


Re: Vatican questions gay rights

Postby DaffyQDuck » Wed Apr 16, 2003 8:35 pm

Washington Post

NATION IN BRIEF



April 16, 2003; Page A05



Judge Says Gay Partner May Sue as a Spouse





NEW YORK -- A judge ruled that a gay man can sue a hospital as the spouse of another man who died, in what a gay rights group believes to be an unprecedented decision.



John Langan can proceed with his wrongful-death lawsuit against St. Vincent's Hospital in connection with Neal C. Spicehandler's death, Nassau County Supreme Court Justice John P. Dunne said in a decision released yesterday.



Adam Aronson, a lawyer for the gay civil rights group Lambda, said the ruling is the first in the nation to treat a same-sex couple joined in a Vermont civil union as a married couple.



The group represented Langan. "This is a significant building block toward securing full equality for same-sex relationships," Aronson said.



Spicehandler was struck by a car on Feb. 12, 2002, and was taken to St. Vincent's, where he died three days later from medical complications. Langan sued, alleging that Spicehandler's treatment was negligent and reckless.



In his 25-page decision, Dunne said state law allows a common-law spouse from another state to sue for wrongful death, and that same right should be afforded to a same-sex partner joined by Vermont's civil union law.



It wasn't our world anymore, they made it theirs and they had fun - Willow

DaffyQDuck
 


White House Defends Santorum

Postby BytrSuite » Sat Apr 26, 2003 1:55 am

www.washingtonpost.com/wp...Apr25.html



White House Defends Santorum

Aides Say Bush Believes Pa. Senator Is an 'Inclusive Man'





By Dana Milbank and Alan Cooperman

Washington Post Staff Writers

Saturday, April 26, 2003; Page A05







The White House yesterday broke its silence over controversial remarks on homosexuality made by Sen. Rick Santorum (R-Pa.), calling the number three Senate Republican leader "an inclusive man."



President Bush's aides defended Santorum, a close White House ally and key social conservative, after the senator provoked a furor by condemning homosexual acts along with bigamy, polygamy, incest and adultery. "The president has confidence in the senator and believes he's doing a good job as senator," White House press secretary Ari Fleischer told reporters yesterday, four days after Santorum's remarks were reported. The spokesman also said Bush "believes the senator is an inclusive man."



In taking that stand, Bush sided with social conservatives, who had criticized White House silence on the matter, and against moderate Republican groups and lawmakers who had condemned Santorum's remarks. But Fleischer did not endorse Santorum's remarks on homosexuality, saying Bush "doesn't ask that question about people" and refusing to take a position on the Supreme Court case that Santorum discussed in his remarks.



The strong defense of Santorum was strikingly different from Bush's approach to remarks made by Sen. Trent Lott (R-Miss.) in December that were seen as praising segregation. After the White House initially supported Lott, Bush publicly rebuked him and set in motion Lott's removal as Senate Republican leader.



In the case of Santorum, Bush had a simpler decision than he faced with Lott. Santorum is much more strongly supported by the party's conservative base than Lott was, and, strategists said, independent voters were much less likely to be alienated by Bush condoning anti-gay remarks than racist remarks. "At the end of the day, race is still a huge issue in America and transcends social issues like this," said GOP tactician Scott Reed.



Whit Ayres, a Republican pollster, said that Americans are ambivalent about gay rights, noting that even Democratic President Bill Clinton signed legislation opposed to the recognition of gay marriage. "While the smallest sliver of the electorate supports gay marriage, a substantially larger bloc follows a 'don't ask, don't tell' policy regarding homosexuality," Ayres said.



Although Santorum was criticized by four moderate Republican senators -- Lincoln D. Chafee (R.I.), Gordon Smith (Ore.) and Susan Collins and Olympia J. Snowe (both Maine) -- GOP officials in the Senate said there was little chance Santorum, though damaged, would lose his leadership job over the flap.



"The base is with Santorum, the White House is with Santorum, and this is gender, not race," said a GOP aide. "The reason Lott lost is because those three factors were moving the other way, against him."



In an interview with the Associated Press published Monday, Santorum criticized homosexuality while discussing a pending Supreme Court case over a Texas sodomy law. "If the Supreme Court says that you have the right to consensual sex within your home, then you have the right to bigamy, you have the right to polygamy, you have the right to incest, you have the right to adultery. You have the right to anything," Santorum said.



"Whether it's polygamy, whether it's adultery, whether it's sodomy, all of those things are antithetical to a healthy, stable, traditional family," he said during the interview.



The Santorum remarks brought cries from gay rights groups for the White House to condemn Santorum and from conservative groups to defend him. At first, Fleischer declined to take a stand, saying the White House "typically" did not discuss pending court cases -- even though it had taken a position in a Supreme Court affirmative action case this year. The Family Research Council said that "the White House continues to bob and weave."



Yesterday, the group's president, Ken Connor, said the White House had not gone far enough. "Republican leaders are terrified to say what they really believe about homosexuality," he said. "They're absolutely cowed by the homosexual interest groups. What we need are people who are unafraid to make the case that homosexuality is a destructive lifestyle." Connor suggested pro-family voters might "reconsider their loyalty to the party."



Fleischer's remarks also failed to satisfy the Log Cabin Republicans, a gay organization. "We are hoping more Republicans will follow the path of Senator Snowe, Senator Chafee, and Senator Gordon Smith, who said this is harmful to the Republican Party," said the group's leader, Patrick Guerriero.



While saying he would "of course" prefer a different statement from the White House, he defended Bush. "Rick Santorum has put the White House and the party into this position, and Rick Santorum should get himself out of it," Guerriero said. "He's thrown acid onto the wounds that President Bush had largely healed over the last couple of years."



Bush antagonized gay Republicans in the presidential campaign by refusing to meet with the Log Cabin Republicans. But he later met with a group of gay Republicans, and as president he named an openly gay ambassador and an openly gay AIDS policy director, and pledged large sums to combat AIDS overseas.



The Republican Unity Coalition, which seeks to defuse the gay issue among Republicans, said the White House had reason to play down the controversy. "I can't imagine that they would ever, ever want to have a national debate on incest, bigamy, homosexuality -- culture war issues that Senator Santorum has so carelessly thrown out there," said Charles Francis, the group's co-chairman and brother of the chairman of Bush's 1994 gubernatorial campaign in Texas. Francis said that was good politics, adding: "Swing voters want a very moderate approach to the whole issue of gay assimilation into mainstream America."



Santorum's spokeswoman said the senator was not available for comment yesterday.



© 2003 The Washington Post Company


________
"Oh, good, my dog found the chainsaw."

Edited by: BytrSuite at: 4/26/03 12:58:06 am
BytrSuite
 


Anti-gay bill author cleared of ethics complaint.

Postby TemperedCynic » Sat Apr 26, 2003 8:04 am

As found in the Minneapolis Star-Tribune:



State House panel kills ethics complaint against Lindner

Associated Press



Published April 24, 2003 LIND25





An ethics complaint against Rep. Arlon Lindner died Thursday following a 2-2 tie vote in the House Ethics Committee that followed party lines.



At issue was whether there was probable cause to discipline the Corcoran Republican for remarks he made on the House floor and in newspaper interviews questioning whether, or the extent to which, homosexuals were persecuted during the Nazi Holocaust.



Lindner said he was happy with the outcome, adding that he hadn't expected the matter to be settled at this hearing. He also said he stands by his remarks and offered no apology.



His floor comments also included the statement that he didn't want to ``to sit around here and wait until America becomes another African continent,'' a reference he said applied to the spread of HIV and AIDS.



Asked if he regretted any of the statements after the verdict, he answered, ``not in the least.''



At that, a member of the audience called Lindner a ``redneck.''



``You offended me, representative,'' shouted Bill English, from the Coalition of Black Churches and African American Leadership Summit. ``Get some education and learn something before you offend a whole nation of people.''



Lindner responded that it was English who was acting intolerant.



DFL House leader Rep. Matt Entenza, of St. Paul, said the verdict means that any comments, regardless of their truth, will be allowed on the House floor.



``I think this highly partisan proceeding would give even a kangaroo court a bad name,'' he said.



Rep. Greg Davids, of Preston, one of the two Republicans on the panel who voted not to pursue the charges, said while he believed Lindner's comments were factually incorrect, he decided the case on freedom-of-speech grounds.



``I believe on the House floor he has the right to speak,'' Davids said.



Rep. Sondra Erickson, R-Princeton, the chairwoman of the committee who joined Davids in the vote, said Lindner's comments were no different than a lawmaker who uses the term fetus in a discussion about abortion instead of the words ``unborn child,'' saying she finds those comments hurtful.



``Hurtful things are said on the House floor quite frequently,'' she said.



Voting for the finding of probable cause to move toward a disciplinary proceeding were Democratic Reps. Tom Pugh, of South St. Paul, and Mary Murphy, of Hermantown.



Scott Cooper, of the gay rights group OutFront Minnesota, said he's worried about the climate the vote could create.



``If it's OK for public officials to denigrate people and deny their history and not be corrected, then isn't it OK for them to discriminate against them? To commit acts of violence against them? That's how this hits the ground outside the Capitol,'' Cooper said.



Lindner's comments first arose in discussion of his bill to repeal state human rights protections for people based on their sexual orientation. A part of that bill would remove any references to homosexuals in state statutes in references to the Holocaust.



Davids and Erickson were both co-sponsors of that bill, though both later removed their names.



Erickson said her views on the bill did not affect her opinion on the Lindner complaint. ``I'm a professional person,'' she said. ``I'm a fair person. I'm a person of integrity and I'll just leave it at that.''








More than any other time in history, mankind faces a crossroads. One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness. The other, to total extinction. Let us pray we have the wisdom to choose correctly. Woody Allen (1935 - )

TemperedCynic
 


Re: Vatican questions gay rights

Postby Amymlc » Tue Apr 29, 2003 10:43 am

I got this in my inbox the other day. It's similar to the one posted earlier, but it's different too. It has an interview with Santorum:

-------

National Gay and Lesbian Task Force Slams Santorum's "Gutter Language" Comparing Homosexuality to Pedophilia, Bestiality



MEDIA CONTACT:

NGLTF Communications Department

media@ngltf.org

323-857-8751

Pager: 800-757-6476





The National Gay and Lesbian Task Force (NGLTF) today called on Senator Rick Santorum (R-PA) to apologize for comments he made in an Associated Press interview comparing homosexuality to pedophilia and bestiality. NGLTF also called on President Bush and other Republican leaders to repudiate Santorum's remarks, the full transcript of which was released last night by A.P. and is included at the bottom of this release.



Finally, NGLTF called for both Republicans and Democrats to stand up against Santorum's remarks by:



1. speaking out in favor of and calling upon the White House to support the upcoming U.N. resolution which opposes sexual orientation-based human rights violations and links anti-gay bias to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights; and,



2. speaking out against anti-gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender (GLBT) legislation currently before several state legislatures.



In an April 7th interview, Santorum, the third highest ranking Republican in the U.S. Senate, compared same-sex marriages to "man on child, man on dog" relationships. He also described homosexuality as "antithetical to a healthy, stable traditional family," ignoring recent 2000 Census data showing that one in three lesbian and bisexual female couples are raising children, as are 22 percent of gay/bisexual male couples.



"Comments comparing committed same-sex relationships to bestiality and pedophilia are unbecoming of a United States Senator," said Lorri L. Jean, Executive Director of the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force. "This is the gutter language of the extreme right wing in this country. And Senator Santorum is wrong to portray gay families as 'antithetical' to the institution of the family. Research shows that half to three quarters of lesbians and gay men are in committed, caring, long-term relationships. The 2000 Census showed that 34 percent of lesbian couples and 22 percent of gay male couples are raising children under the age of 18. It is despicable that a United States Senator would devalue our families by presenting them as a threat to the American family, and by comparing them to man-dog, man-child 'relationships,'" Jean said. "We are the American family."



Jean also challenged Santorum's characterization of the Catholic Church sexual abuse scandal as "a basic homosexual relationship." "When a man abuses a young girl, the problem is not heterosexuality," Jean said. "Few would characterize such abuse as a heterosexual act similar to consensual sex between an adult man and woman. Similarly, when a man sexually abuses a boy or underage teen, the problem is not homosexuality. The problem is child abuse. Period."



NGLTF understands that the U.S. may abstain from the U.N. resolution vote, unlike many other allied and democratic countries. The vote, originally scheduled for today, is now scheduled to take place on Friday. "Both Congress and the media should be asking the White House why the United States would abstain on this human rights issue, especially in light of Santorum's inhumane comments," Jean said. "It is time for this 'compassionate conservative' administration to stand up for the rights of all human beings. Failure to take concrete action beyond rhetoric in this and all human rights cases will leave this administration standing in concert with the sentiments underlying Santorum's remarks." More information on the U.N. resolution can be found in the NGLTF U.N. Action Alert.



Jean also called on President Bush and other political leaders to repudiate Santorum's comments, and to take action against the stigmatization of gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender (GLBT) families, particularly gay parents with children, by speaking out against anti-gay adoption and foster care bills currently before the Texas and Oklahoma legislatures. In Oklahoma, HB1308 would ban "a homosexual, bisexual or lesbian" from adopting in the state. In Texas, HB 194 would prevent homosexuals and bisexuals from serving as foster parents, and stigmatize GLB parents and foster children by mandating that all prospective foster parents be asked if they are homosexual or bisexual. Another Texas bill would ban unmarried individuals from serving as foster parents. North Dakota's legislature just passed an anti-gay adoption bill, which awaits the Republican governor's signature. "These mean-spirited bills would codify the hatred expressed by Senator Santorum," Jean said. "This is hardly 'compassionate conservatism.' It is incumbent that the Republican and Democratic leadership, including President Bush, take concrete action to oppose these bills and speak out against laws like that in place in Florida, which bans gay men and lesbians from adopting."



With half a million children in the U.S. foster care system, many of whom bounce from foster home to foster home until they turn 18, it is not in the interest of child welfare to restrict the pool of potential parents on the basis of prejudice against their sexual orientation. Florida, Mississippi, Arkansas and Utah currently ban lesbians, gay men, or same-sex couples from serving as foster or adoptive parents. The Child Welfare League of America, the nation's premier child advocacy organization, says that adoption "[a]pplicants should be assessed on the basis of their abilities to successfully parent a child needing family membership and not on their . . . sexual orientation." The American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry and the North American Council on Adoptable Children also support evaluating gay and lesbian applicants for adoption on the same basis as heterosexual applicants.



Nearly 40 states have passed anti-same-sex marriage bills, and Texas is considering its second such bill. Ohio's legislature is considering a bill that would ban all forms of same-sex couple recognition, including non-economic benefits for domestic partners such as hospital visitation and inheritance rights.



For more information on gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender family policy issues, see Family Policy: Issues Affecting Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transgender Families, a comprehensive study released by NGLTF in January 2003 and available at the NGLTF publications library.



###



Following is an unedited section of the Associated Press interview, taped April 7, with Sen. Rick Santorum, R-PA. Words that couldn't be heard clearly on the tape are marked (unintelligible).



AP: If you're saying that liberalism is taking power away from the families, how is conservatism giving more power to the families?



SANTORUM: Putting more money in their pocketbook is one. The more money you take away from families is the less power that family has. And that's a basic power. The average American family in the 1950s paid (unintelligible) percent in federal taxes. An average American family now pays about 25 percent.



The argument is, yes, we need to help other people. But one of the things we tried to do with welfare, and we're trying to do with other programs is, we're setting levels of expectation and responsibility, which the left never wanted to do. They don't want to judge. They say, Oh, you can't judge people. They should be able to do what they want to do. Well, not if you're taking my money and giving it to them. But it's this whole idea of moral equivalency. (unintelligible) My feeling is, well, if it's my money, I have a right to judge.



AP: Speaking of liberalism, there was a story in The Washington Post about six months ago, they'd pulled something off the Web, some article that you wrote blaming, according to The Washington Post, blaming in part the Catholic Church scandal on liberalism. Can you explain that?



SANTORUM: You have the problem within the church. Again, it goes back to this moral relativism, which is very accepting of a variety of different lifestyles. And if you make the case that if you can do whatever you want to do, as long as it's in the privacy of your own home, this "right to privacy," then why be surprised that people are doing things that are deviant within their own home? If you say, there is no deviant as long as it's private, as long as it's consensual, then don't be surprised what you get. You're going to get a lot of things that you're sending signals that as long as you do it privately and consensually, we don't really care what you do. And that leads to a culture that is not one that is nurturing and necessarily healthy. I would make the argument in areas where you have that as an accepted lifestyle, don't be surprised that you get more of it.



AP: The right to privacy lifestyle?



SANTORUM: The right to privacy lifestyle.



AP: What's the alternative?



SANTORUM: In this case, what we're talking about, basically, is priests who were having sexual relations with post-pubescent men. We're not talking about priests with 3-year-olds, or 5-year-olds. We're talking about a basic homosexual relationship. Which, again, according to the world view sense is a a perfectly fine relationship as long as it's consensual between people. If you view the world that way, and you say that's fine, you would assume that you would see more of it.



AP: Well, what would you do?



SANTORUM: What would I do with what?



AP: I mean, how would you remedy? What's the alternative?



SANTORUM: First off, I don't believe --



AP: I mean, should we outlaw homosexuality?



SANTORUM: I have no problem with homosexuality. I have a problem with homosexual acts. As I would with acts of other, what I would consider to be, acts outside of traditional heterosexual relationships. And that includes a variety of different acts, not just homosexual. I have nothing, absolutely nothing against anyone who's homosexual. If that's their orientation, then I accept that. And I have no problem with someone who has other orientations. The question is, do you act upon those orientations? So it's not the person, it's the person's actions. And you have to separate the person from their actions.



AP: OK, without being too gory or graphic, so if somebody is homosexual,you would argue that they should not have sex?



SANTORUM: We have laws in states, like the one at the Supreme Court right now, that has sodomy laws and they were there for a purpose. Because, again, I would argue, they undermine the basic tenets of our society and the family. And if the Supreme Court says that you have the right to consensual sex within your home, then you have the right to bigamy, you have the right to polygamy, you have the right to incest, you have the right to adultery. You have the right to anything. Does that undermine the fabric of our society? I would argue yes, it does. It all comes from, I would argue, this right to privacy that doesn't exist in my opinion in the United States Constitution, this right that was created, it was created in Griswold -- Griswold was the contraceptive case -- and abortion. And now we're just extending it out. And the further you extend it out, the more you -- this freedom actually intervenes and affects the family. You say, well, it's my individual freedom. Yes, but it destroys the basic unit of our society because it condones behavior that's antithetical to strong, healthy families. Whether it's polygamy, whether it's adultery, where it's sodomy, all of those things, are antithetical to a healthy, stable, traditional family.



Every society in the history of man has upheld the institution of marriage as a bond between a man and a woman. Why? Because society is based on one thing: that society is based on the future of the society. And that's what? Children. Monogamous relationships. In every society, the definition of marriage has not ever to my knowledge included homosexuality. That's not to pick on homosexuality. It's not, you know, man on child, man on dog, or whatever the case may be. It is one thing. And when you destroy that you have a dramatic impact on the quality --



AP: I'm sorry, I didn't think I was going to talk about "man on dog" with a United States senator, it's sort of freaking me out.



SANTORUM: And that's sort of where we are in today's world, unfortunately. The idea is that the state doesn't have rights to limit individuals' wants and passions. I disagree with that. I think we absolutely have rights because there are consequences to letting people live out whatever wants or passions they desire. And we're seeing it in our society.



AP: Sorry, I just never expected to talk about that when I came over here to interview you. Would a President Santorum eliminate a right to privacy -- you don't agree with it?



SANTORUM: I've been very clear about that. The right to privacy is a right that was created in a law that set forth a (ban on) rights to limit individual passions. And I don't agree with that. So I would make the argument that with President, or Senator or Congressman or whoever Santorum, I would put it back to where it is, the democratic process. If New York doesn't want sodomy laws, if the people of New York want abortion, fine. I mean, I wouldn't agree with it, but that's their right. But I don't agree with the Supreme Court coming in.

--------



All I have to say is that I seriously hope that we all remember all things Bush is doing and not doing come election day next year.



Amymlc
 


Rick Santorum is a Big, Fat, Idiot

Postby Gatito Grande » Wed Apr 30, 2003 10:21 pm

OK, maybe he's not all that fat (and apologies to all Kittens "of size," I'm just copying Al Franken's title), but he is a total idiot.



Let us count the ways (the quotes):



Quote:
Yes, but it destroys the basic unit of our society because it condones behavior that's antithetical to strong, healthy families.




So, sodomy destroys the family, because . . . it destroys the family? Hello, tautology!



Why doesn't he just say "sodomy is bad because it's gross, and it's gross because it's bad?" So help me, Santorum is exactly the kind of guy at whom I want to scream "Penis up your ass, Rick! Visualize a penis up your ass!!" Idiot.



Quote:
Every society in the history of man has upheld the institution of marriage as a bond between a man and a woman. Why? Because society is based on one thing: that society is based on the future of the society. And that's what? . . . Monogamous relationships.




What "history of man" is he talking about? Apparently not the one on Planet Earth, where marriage has been . . . gasp! polygamous more often than not, either formally or semi-formally (one thinks of the classic "Mitterand's mistress standing next to the wife at the funeral" picture). And in that same Planet Earth history (and even today), the "bond" has typically been of the woman (or women) *to* the man. Idiot.



Quote:
In this case, what we're talking about, basically, is priests who were having sexual relations with post-pubescent men. We're not talking about priests with 3-year-olds, or 5-year-olds.




"Post-pubescent men": I love it! So, it's basically OK for an adult male to have sex w/ a 13-year old, as long as the 13-year old is female? If Rick has daughters, would some benevolent state agency please take them away? (It's not like Rick thinks he--or they---have a right to privacy!) Idiot.



Quote:
And if the Supreme Court says that you have the right to consensual sex within your home, then you have the right to . . . adultery.




Unless the U.S. became a theocracy while I wasn't looking, I could have sworn you did have the right to adultery. Certainly much of (any) Congress and many of the Presidents (inc. Bush 41, if not the current one) have behaved as though they did (Though Democrats have let Republicans get away with it, unremarked, more than the other way around). Idiot.





Then note how he goes from this:



Quote:
And if you make the case that if you can do whatever you want to do . . . as long as it's consensual




to this:



Quote:
. . . man on child, man on dog, or whatever the case may be.




So, Rick, what happened to consensual? Maybe your 13-year old "post-pubescent man" can consent (Not!), but your dog? Kind of undercuts your case that consensuality is irrelevent, if you then cite clearly non-consensual behavior (I won't dignify it by calling it "sex") in the same breath.



I've been writing this post in a raging thunderstorm here in Michigan, and I've already had the power go out once (good thing I saved this not 30 seconds before!), so I'll stop here. I'm sure other Kittens can find even more Santorum Idiocy. :puke



Thanks, Amymlc, for posting this.



GG What makes the Rickster all the more vile, is that when he was first elected to the Senate in '94 (I had just moved to his state of Pennsylvania at the time), he defeated *Harris Wofford*, a Civil Rights activist, Health Care advocate, and one of the finest people ever to serve in the Senate, IMHO. Out





Gatito Grande
 


Re: Anti-gay bill author cleared of ethics complaint.

Postby Minn » Thu May 01, 2003 10:37 am

I had to laugh when I read the part about monogamy I should that part to a very good friend who is openly poly and she laughed and came up with tons of examples of polygamy going on in all kinds of religious works both the bible and the Greeks and others. I'm not sure which history of the world he read. I'm just trying to block a lot of the others stuff out cause its to dump for me to even try to logic out how he came to that conclusion

Minn
 


Re: Equal Marriage For Same Sex Couples

Postby Patches » Thu May 01, 2003 2:22 pm



From Canadian Press



Vancouver [Canada] — Governments should change with the times and recognize gay marriage, the B.C. [British Columbia] Appeal Court said on Thursday as it knocked down a hurdle in the way of same sex unions.



The court overturned a B.C. Supreme Court ruling that said marriage should be restricted to heterosexuals.



In its decision the court gave the federal government until July 12, 2004 to change the law preventing gays and lesbians from marrying.



The panel of three judges wrote that they would reformulate the law, making it read “the lawful union of two persons to the exclusion of all others,” as opposed to the union of man and woman.



Courts in Quebec and Ontario also backed same-sex marriage rights but the federal government is appealing those decisions.



Two years ago, B.C. Supreme Court Justice Ian Pitfield ruled against same-sex marriages, finding that “marriage” can refer only to the union of couples of the opposite sex.



The judge also found that although the common-law prohibition of same-sex marriages violates Section 15 of the Charter, it was a legally justifiable limit under Section 1.



The ruling that was overturned Thursday had dismissed a petition by the eight couples seeking a declaration that the issuer of marriage licences under Section 31 of the Marriage Act is permitted to issue licences to same-sex couples.



In an explanation for their decision, the appeal judges wrote “that the common law definition of marriage contravenes the Charter and it cannot be justified in contemporary Canadian society.”



Courts, they said, have not given enough consideration to the extent to which society’s views on gay and lesbians have changed.



Michael Martens, a spokesman for Focus on the Family, a group opposed to same-sex marriage, said he was disappointed with the decision and that the issue should be debated in government.



He said the judges haven’t taken into consideration the benefits for society which marriage provides.



“Marriage is a social institution, institutions are not about rights, they’re about serving society, and marriage does a very good job of that,” Mr. Martens said outside the court.



“No other relationship provides the unique benefits that marriage does for kids, for the parents themselves and for people who aren’t married.”



Since the decriminalization of homosexual relationships in Canada in 1969, there has been a steady expansion of the rights of gay, lesbian and bisexuals reflected in human rights legislation.



“These developments have substantial public support, although the matter remains controversial,” the appeal court said. “This evolution cannot be ignored. Civil marriage should adapt to contemporary notions of marriage as an institution in a society which recognizes the rights of homosexual persons to non-discriminatory treatment.”



The couples who challenged the law are Murray Warren and Peter Cook, Elizabeth and Dawn Barbeau, Melinda Roy and Tanya Chambers, Robin Roberts and Diana Denny, Jane Hamilton and Joy Masuhara, Tess Healy and Wendy Young, Shane McCloskey and David Shortt, and Bob Peacock and Lloyd Thornhill.



Some of the couples have lived together for 30 years and have children.



Last week the federal government began its challenge to a controversial lower court ruling in Ontario that said Canadian law is unconstitutional because it recognizes only opposite-sex unions.



Common law defines marriage as “the union of one man and one woman” — a violation of the equality section of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, the divisional court said.



Lawyers for the government said the lower court came to the dangerous conclusion that the purpose of marriage is to discriminate against gay and lesbian couples.



The government said that was never the case, arguing that any inequality that exists has been ascribed to marriage by unfair legislation — such as employee benefits that exclude same-sex couples, or the imposition of registration and licence requirements on heterosexual marriages.




One step closer ...





You know I've heard about people like me. But I never made the connection. They walk one road to set them free, And find they've gone the wrong direction. But there's no need for turning back 'cause all roads lead to where I stand. And I believe I'll walk them all No matter what I may have planned

Patches
 


Youth Pride!

Postby sprhrgrl » Thu May 01, 2003 3:35 pm

In happier news than what is generally on this thread, San Diego Youth Pride is happening this weekend. It's a really exciting event, happening for the first time ever.



It's being put on by a bunch of crazy kids such as myself, and folks (queer and allied) are welcome if they are from the ages 14-24. I have a dig with exclusive spaces myself, but it'll all be okay because it'll be great.



We're having lots of neat performers like Bitch & Animal, I Am Loved, Elena and Carlsbad High School's three time national champion Lancer Dancers.



Again, it'll be great. The march leaves the Hillcrest Youth Center at noon, and then marches to The Center for the festival, which starts at one. And I'm leading said march, so it's all good.



There will also be a drag show, lots of neat informational tables, speakers, games, prizes and yummy yummy food.

So all of you baby San Diego kittens like me should come.



The end.





sprhrgrl.com

counting*stars


racism=sexism=homophobia

The truth shall set you free, but first it will piss you off. – Gloria Steinem

Edited by: sprhrgrl  at: 5/2/03 11:19:19 am
sprhrgrl
 


Re: Equal Marriage For Same Sex Couples

Postby Kalita » Thu May 01, 2003 8:32 pm

Thank you, Patches, it's great to hear that BC is on board.



The three most populous provinces' supreme courts think same-sex marriage is a Good Thing. It's only a matter of time now!

"What do people mean when they say the computer went down on them?"

- Marilyn Pittman

Kalita
 


Salon:Deconstructing conservative thought on homosexuality

Postby bzengo » Tue May 06, 2003 4:40 pm

From Salon

(Registration required)



Letters to a young heterosexual

Deconstructing a prominent conservative's thoughts on understanding the poor, wayward homosexual.



- - - - - - - - - - - -

By Andrew Sullivan







May 6, 2003 | Conservative radio talk show host and columnist Dennis Prager tried to take an evenhanded look in his recent column at the plight of the homosexual in today's society. Here's a look at what he said -- and how he did:



The homosexual is equal in God's eyes to the heterosexual.



Thanks, Dennis, for letting some people who might still harbor this kind of ignorance and prejudice know what even Jewish and Catholic orthodoxy teaches.



Parents must love their children, including the child who is homosexual. At the same time, a homosexual child must understand a loving parent's sadness over his or her inability to sexually love a person of the opposite sex.



Sure. But it's incumbent on parents to try to understand the pain and difficulty that gay children also endure, growing up. It is not enough to love someone, despite their being gay. Parents should love their children, however hard it may be at first, because they're gay; and the mystery of their sexuality is as deep and as beautiful as any heterosexual's.



Society has the right and obligation to prefer heterosexuality to homosexuality.



This is, alas, an absurd statement. It implies that one can choose one over the other. But, as Prager later acknowledges, for the vast majority of homosexuals and heterosexuals, there is no choice over the matter. It's like saying that society has the right and obligation to prefer redheads over brunets. As a statement of fact, it might be true. But as a statement of morals, it is meaningless.



It is better for children -- they need a mother and a father.



Again, largely meaningless. Of course all children -- gay and straight -- need a mother and a father. Many are lucky to have both, as I was. But some aren't, and we should do all we can to ensure that the children of single people, or divorced people, or gay couples, have as full a life as possible.



And it is better for the individual -- a woman makes a man a better person; and a man does the same for a woman.



But this point is not the same as "preferring" heterosexuality. Prager here is talking about heterosexual marriage or heterosexual relationships. I'm all in favor of both. But they are simply not meaningful options for gay people. In fact, the attempt to force gay people into such relationships is a recipe for betrayal, deception, psychological distress and terrible consequences for children. It is also, I think, demeaning to single people, straight or gay, to argue that their lives are worse than married ones. Some are. Many aren't. Friendships can enrich a life immeasurably; bad relationships can harm immensely. And what would Prager say about Catholic priests, who are religiously required to be single? Are they somehow damaging themselves?



Advocating heterosexuality as society's ideal no more implies bigotry or "homophobia" than advocating marriage implies bigotry against singles or "single-phobia."



Again, it's simply impossible for society to have as an "ideal" something over which people have no choice. That's not advocating for an "ideal"; it's advocating for simple privilege. There might be good reasons for giving some privileges to married couples. I think there are. But that simply argues for allowing such privileges to be available to gay couples as well.



Societies that regard homosexual sex as the equivalent of heterosexual sex have far more homosexual sex.



Really? Where's the data supporting that? I see no evidence, for example, that there is more homosexual sex in, say, Holland, than in, say, the United States. None at all. In fact, it might actually be the case that by recognizing homosexuals as a group of people, and identifying male-male sex with such people, that we have actually reduced the amount of male-male sex between straight and gay men. There's some historical evidence, for example, that there was more sexual interaction among straight and gay men in the 1940s and 1950s than there is today, because the whole concept (and therefore stigma) of homosexual orientation and community was less prevalent. But that might also be a function of greater autonomy for women and less sexual repression among heterosexuals. Either way, I know of no solid data supporting either assertion.



Ancient Greece esteemed man-boy sex, and consequently had far more of it than modern society.



I know that Dennis appreciates the distinction between man-boy sex and adult gay male sex, and I'm somewhat shocked that he seems to conflate it. Adult gay male sex, as we now understand it, was actually quite rare in ancient Greece. Boys were admired for their feminine qualities. They were preferred over women because women were regarded as an inferior species, necessary for procreation, but not reserved for erotic love. That's an entirely different cultural context than today.



Men who are not sexually attracted to women have no choice about being homosexual. Proponents of heterosexuality should, therefore, use the word "choose" sparingly when referring to homosexual men.



Sparingly? How about never?



We do not know why people are homosexual. The cause may be genetic, or it may be neonatal, but we have nothing approaching proof for either explanation. It may also be psychologically induced, and in some cases this can be shown (e.g., gay men who were subjected to sexual contact with a male when they were boys). In none of these cases can a homosexual be said to have chosen to be one.



I know of no evidence that boys have been made homosexual by early sexual contact with men. Again, where's the evidence? This is an ancient canard, used by some (though not Prager) as a smear against gay men in general. What we do know is that sexual abuse of the young leads to awful psychological consequences for the children, whether they be gay or straight. Bringing this subject up in this context strikes me as irresponsible and strained.



Many women in lesbian relationships, however, can find some men sexually desirable. Such homosexuals can be said to exercise some degree of choice. A significant percentage of women in lesbian relationships have come to those relationships primarily as a result of sexual abuse by a man.



Huh? What does "a significant percentage" mean? Again, I've seen no proof of this at all. I agree that female sexuality -- hetero and homo -- seems to be more fluid, less rigid and more emotionally connected than male sexuality. So what?



Bisexuals, by definition, exercise choice. They can be asked (though not legally coerced) to limit their sexual behavior to heterosexual relationships.



And they should also be able to answer that they will have sex with or love anyone they choose.



It is unfair to a child who can be adopted by a married couple to be adopted by a same-sex couple. Children have a basic human right to a mother and a father.



Yes to the last statement. But what if that choice doesn't exist? What if the choice is between no parents and two gay ones? Or between a single gay parent and two gay parents in a committed relationship? These are the most realistic questions and Dennis should address them.



The Boy Scouts have the right and the duty not to place gay men in situations where they are alone with boys -- just as the Girl Scouts should not place heterosexual men in positions where they are alone with girls.



I think this is overly paranoid. But it's defensible. The Boy Scouts, as a private group, should be able to set any rules for themselves that they want to. But it's extremely sad that same-sex or opposite-sex mentoring for all is now outlawed by panic about sexual abuse of children.



Yes, most gay men control themselves around boys; but the disproportionate sexual abuse of boys by homosexual priests suggests that some proportion of gays will not be able to control this desire.



In my experience, the vast majority of gay men have no need to "control themselves" around boys. They have no sexual interest in boys at all and don't need to control anything. If my spam is anything to go by, I think lusting after the underage is in fact disproportionately a heterosexual inclination. As to homosexual priests, especially those who grew up decades ago, they are surely a special case. Many are psychologically scarred beyond measure; many have had no experience of adult sexual relationships; many have the sexual maturity of teenagers; all are required to live lives of severe sexual repression. To use them as a typical subgroup of gay men is simply bizarre. And many of those who have abused children are not gay at all. They are physically attracted to adult women and prepubescent boys.



Jewish and Christian denominations are right to refuse to ordain avowed practicing homosexuals. At the same time they are not required to ask prospective clergy what their sexual orientation is. Sexual orientation is the individual's business; publicly proclaimed sexual behavior is the denomination's business.



Wrong again. Any religious group should be perfectly free to impose any requirements on its clergy that it wants. It can mandate that they be shaven, or celibate, or married, or castrated, or grow long, long beards and shave their armpits. It depends on the denomination. But it is a separate question whether celibate priests are a good thing; and if they are not, it is a separate issue again whether married priests who are gay can also have relationships. Prager doesn't explain why. So I won't open up a different discussion entirely. But he also omits an obvious category: Forget about publicly proclaimed sexual behavior. what about publicly proclaimed sexual orientation? If homosexuality is not in itself sinful, and if gay priests are celibate, there is no reason at all why they shouldn't be open about their sexual orientation. None whatsoever. In fact, requiring the closet in those cases is a function of pure prejudice and discrimination. Sexual orientation is a public matter. If a rabbi can bring his wife to the synagogue, a gay priest ought to be able to tell people he's gay. The fact that the church opposes this tells you a lot about where they're really coming from.



Consensual, private sex between adults is not always acceptable. Even most gays judge consensual adult incest such as father-daughter or brother-sister (or brother-brother) sex wrong. Many gays even believe it should be illegal. Therefore, heterosexuals who draw their line of acceptance at homosexual sex are not necessarily any more bigoted than gays who draw their line at consensual incest.



In general, private sexual behavior between consenting adults should indeed be private and legal. But the old and obvious exception is if it harms others or truly damages the social fabric. In some cases -- rape, sexual abuse, incest among related adults -- private sexual behavior really does harm people and also profoundly undermines family life. How does incest -- even adult and consensual -- harm the family? It does so because it introduces the passions of sex into what should be stable, reliable family relations. It destroys the trust essential for families to function. How does private, consensual gay adult sex do any such thing? Whom does it harm? How can it undermine the family? That's something Dennis Prager and Rick Santorum have to answer. They still haven't. They've simply asserted it.



The gay movement's constant linking of gay equality with equality for the transgendered (someone who acts like the opposite sex) undermines its moral credibility and feeds the belief that the movement seeks to undermine Judeo-Christian and Western liberal society. It is one thing to demand that gays not be fired for their private behavior or sexual orientation. But it is quite another to demand that men who wear women's clothing in public must be allowed to keep their jobs.



Where to start? Some people truly feel that their psychological and spiritual gender is not reflected in their anatomy. They don't threaten anyone; they deserve respect, support and fairness. To argue that such respect undermines Western liberal society is simply bizarre. To say that accepting the marginalized is antithetical to Christianity, whose founder preached not once about gay sex but constantly about the need to embrace the wounded and marginalized and despised, is to turn the Gospels on their head.



"Homophobic" is an epithet; often as ugly as "fag." Activists for homosexuality-heterosexuality equivalence should make arguments, not smear all those who believe in the heterosexual ideal. Likewise activists for the heterosexual ideal must never deny the humanity or dignity of the homosexual human being.



I agree. But anyone who thinks that the word "homophobic" does as much psychological damage and inflicts as much hurt as the word "fag" has clearly never visited a high-school playground. I agree with the principle of mutual civility and try to live up to it. But such a principle should not be used to disguise the reality of prejudice, ignorance and hatred.



Anyone, including homosexuals, should have the right to name beneficiaries in case of death, to name the visitors they wish in case of illness, etc. That is elementary decency.



So give us marriage. That is elementary equality.



Marriage is the bedrock institution of society, and must not be redefined.



But it has been redefined endlessly. In fact, the institution of civil marriage today -- with no-fault divorce, serial marriages, the equality of women, prenuptial agreements, and on and on -- bears only the faintest resemblance to what it did 20 years ago, let alone a century ago.



If it is, there are no moral or logical grounds to prevent redefining marriage to include more than two people.



Yes, there is. Gay people are not asking for the right to marry anyone. We're asking the right to marry someone. Would be polygamists already have a legal option: to marry a single other person. Gay people have no marital options whatsoever, except to marry someone of the opposite sex, which is no meaningful option at all. Polygamy as a general principle would deeply undermine society, subject women to grotesque mistreatment, and create an underclass of unmarried men who would pose a real threat to the social order. Homosexual marriage would do no such things.



More deeply, homosexuality is not something people do. It's something people are. In the recent debate about Rick Santorum's desire to turn gay people into criminals for their private relationships, I've realized that this really is the sticking point. Many heterosexuals simply don't believe that gay people are like them, that our sexual orientation is as deep, as natural, as involuntary and as profound as their own. They think we're asking for permission to do something, and they fear that if they give us permission to do something, then they'll give lots of other people permission to do lots of other things that also creep them out. But this isn't what we're asking for at all. We're asking for civil equality in simply being who we are.



If I said that I had no problems with heterosexuals, except that it offends me to see them holding hands, or bringing their wives to dinner parties, or having consensual sex in private, no one would think I was "inclusive." They'd think I was out of my mind. Why? Because we accept that being straight is simply being human. Who would deny a human being such obvious comforts and needs as the love for one another, supremely symbolized in the act of marriage? But that is precisely what so many would deny gays. It may not be because they are consciously bigoted, although that's certainly how it sometimes seems and feels. It's simply because they do not understand the phenomenon they are talking about. They don't see how deep it goes, how equivalent it really is to heterosexuality. Which means that our work as gay people and as the friends and families of gay people really is cut out for us. The arguments for gay equality make complete sense, once you have acknowledged the essential humanness of being gay. And the only way we will convince others of that is by talking to them, explaining to them, opening up to them, and showing them the depth of our conviction and the dignity of our love. This is hard, certainly harder than demonizing them for bigotry or retreating into an insecure ghetto or forgetting about it all and going to the next cocktail party. But it is something we have to do, if we actually want change.



Gay activist groups are radical organizations. Opposing them no more renders a person anti-gay than having opposed communist parties rendered one anti-worker.



A few are, alas. I wish they weren't. But some aren't and do good and important work. For Prager to dismiss all of them as "radical" is unfair, unintelligent and a cop-out. He knows better. And the majority of gay people who aren't radicals deserve better.



None of these propositions in any way contradicts the opening statement: The homosexual is equal in God's eyes to the heterosexual.



Unfortunately, some of these propositions really do contradict the opening statement. And conservatives like me have a duty and an obligation to try to show people like Prager why.





- - - - - - - - - - - -



About the writer

Salon columnist Andrew Sullivan's commentary appears daily on his own andrewsullivan.com Web site.





bzengo
 


Re: Salon:Deconstructing conservative thought on homosexuali

Postby Gatito Grande » Tue May 06, 2003 11:07 pm

Quote:
The gay movement's constant linking of gay equality with equality for the transgendered (someone who acts like the opposite sex) undermines its moral credibility and feeds the belief that the movement seeks to undermine Judeo-Christian and Western liberal society. It is one thing to demand that gays not be fired for their private behavior or sexual orientation. But it is quite another to demand that men who wear women's clothing in public must be allowed to keep their jobs.




"constant linking"? WTF? I'm sure I speak for many in the trans community saying, "if only"! The "T" in "LGBT" is a recent, and by no means "contant," addition (as "B" was before that, and "L" was before that).



And I can't begin to describe the inadequacy of "someone who acts like the opposite sex" as a definition of transgendered. Many T (or "TG") people would reject the verb "act" (as if it was only a performance), and many others would reject the whole notion of "opposite sex" (many of us perceive sex/gender as a spectrum *not* a rigid duality).



Then there's the ubiquitous canard of "men who wear women's clothing in public" (I'm surprised Prager didn't say "in the women's bathroom"---that's the way this argument almost invariably goes). I really trust that every Kitten knows that, regardless of your gender or sexuality, we all face far greater danger from homophobic (and trans-phobic) hetboys than we do from some harmless "Please just let me live in peace" T-girl. :kiss



GG Don't like being called a "____-phobe" Prager? Then don't be one! :rage Out



Gatito Grande
 


Re: Salon:Deconstructing conservative thought on homosexuali

Postby kyraroc » Wed May 07, 2003 1:42 am

While I agree with the bulk of Sullivan's thoughts on this matter, I am unbelievably tired of consensual adult incest and polyamory/polygamy being treated by advocates of gay rights in the same manner that the fundies treat homosexuality - lump 'em in with nonconsexual sex like bestiality and child abuse, make vague, unsubstantiated claims that no, these ones really DO destroy the family.



Some of us think that adults should be allowed whatever kind of consensual sex they want, and should also be able to form whatever kinds of families they choose. I realize that political necessity prevents most people who want their opinions taken seriously from supporting incest and polygamy, but do they have to parrot back the same bullshit arguments they object to so strenuously when they are applied to gay couples?

Lost in Ecstacy

kyraroc
 


Gay women in the (U.S.) military: is there any other kind?

Postby Gatito Grande » Sat May 17, 2003 9:45 pm

In the story, "Census data measures same-sex couples" at Gay.com, there is the most amazing statistic.



Quote:
The findings also show 14 percent of men and 8 percent of women in same-sex partnerships are military veterans who served in active duty. That compares to 29 percent of men and 1 percent of women who are married.




channels.gay.com/news/art...03/05/14/1



That's 8 % of "women in same-sex partnerships" to 1 % of married (presumably straight) women. 8 to 1!!! I don't know what it means (dykes on parade?), but it's pretty damn incredible.:pride



GG The wrinkle is in the "partnership" category: what percentage of lesbian veterans are in partnerships, versus what percentage of straight F veterans? Any statistical Kitten wanna take a crack at this? :hmm Out



It also occurs to me, that a dramatically higher percentage of American lesbians are veterans, than are straight women.







Gatito Grande
 


Re: Salon:Deconstructing conservative thought on homosexuali

Postby Amymlc » Sun May 18, 2003 9:26 am

I agree with the polygamy thing 100% Who's to say that someone can't love more than one person? We're still fighting for homosexual equality so it'll be a long time before we get to the point that we accept polygamy. It's sad, but true.



The incest thing... While I have no problem with consenting adults doing whatever they want, I don't know if I'd allow two people within the same family to marry because then you get into a whole new thing with inbreeding and the problems that causes. There are a huge number of pedophiles who hide behind the title of incest, so naturally people automatically think of child abuse when they think of incest. I perosonally don't believe that having sex within your family is particualy healthy, but then the same has been said about homosexuals. I don't know, that's a tough one.

Amymlc
 


Re: Salon:Deconstructing conservative thought on homosexuali

Postby LostWithoutTara » Sun May 18, 2003 9:59 am

Incest is a major issue. I don't believe that it is healthy, mainly due to the issues of inbreeding and genetically-caused illness in potential offspring. Of course, it is hard to place boundaries on loving someone, but within the same family is worrying, as Amymlc said, due to it being used to conceal paedophiles.



People might have said homosexuality isn't healthy, but I think people think that because they cannot tolerate what they cannot understand. If straight people could be 'gay-for-a-day' I doubt if there'd be so many social problems and victimisation of homosexuals as people could see that being gay is just as natural, beautiful and acceptable as being straight. I still can't believe that, in this day and age, some people think sexuality is a choice that you make.



Stupid society...

LostWithoutTara
 

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