Here's my opinion.



Did you mind with how their sexual relationship was portrayed by using magic as a meterphor?

I think using magic was cool and it represented their love very well but it was unrealistic that they never kissed or had other sexual intimacy in season 4. I didn't want the love scene just kisses were enough. Anyway, WB was to blame for that.



In hindsight would you still have been a fan of the show considering the dead/evil lesbian cliche that many believed was depicted with the death of tara and with willow going evil?

No, I wouldn't. I think that would support the media to keep doing this. That would be like telling them that it was ok to do this.



Could this tragic end to their relationship be seen as a romero and juliet story and showed the strength and intensity of willow's love for tara? It was only by taking tara away from willow would these emotions be fully realised?

Agreed with sam7777



Tara was willows world hence her world is over when tara dies and so the world should end?

I think it didn't make sense. It wasn't like Willow at all. And Romeo and Juliet killed themselves. They ended their own world not everybody's world.



One last question, did you enjoy any of the other lesbian undertones from the series like the lesbian undertones from faith to buffy?

No. IMO it was the way the show tried to keep lesbian fans. And I think sometimes we want a lesbian story on TV and films so much we try to interpret everything into it.

The only abnormality is the incapacity to love - Anais Nin

More talk on the dead lesbian cliche. This time about ER:

ER's Lesbian Relationship Dies a Long, Slow Death in Season 9

Quote:

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The worst part? Kerry and Sandy are currently slated to be the only lesbian couple on primetime network television next season. Which makes the loss of Kerry and Sandy's relationship to the Lesbian Cliche graveyard more than just a setback for ER fans, but for all lesbian and bisexual viewers.

---

This article was from last May and primetime network television indeed has not replaced Kerry and Sandy. After the end of Willow/Tara, network TV is riddled with more dead/Tragic lesbians (ER, AMC) and more male titillation (Fastlane and others too numerous to mention). Truly a setback for all lesbian and bisexual viewers which Showtime's "L Word" can only partly address as many cannot watch it. I'm hoping that "Nikki and Nora" gets on the air at UPN so we can have once again a lesbian couple on primetime network television next season.



In any case, L.A. Vess's article "Deadly Dilemma of Lesbians in Entertainment" was dated April 2004. Two years after "Seeing Red", people can still see and discuss the dead lesbian cliche in the death of Tara. Many lesbian fans have neither forgiven nor forgotten.

_____________________

I still see dead lesbian cliches

Edited by: sam7777  at: 5/10/04 3:29 pm

i just want to say fantastico fantastico fantastico for all the responses to my questions, its really helped with my research project thanks kittens .

This article is about the new gay themed channel LOGO from MTV. It makes a good point about the gay audience and their expectations:

Gay channel must focus on content

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And something else to consider: When Logo figures out this content predicament and develops something original, will it be interesting? Let's face it, gay people aren't going to watch a bad show just because it's gay- centric. You can only support the cause so long before you're bored into a narcoleptic stupor.

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Fox has seen the light and is cancelling for "creative reasons" (yeah right) that awful reality show where two straight men compete as undercover gays:

Fox cancels gay-themed reality show

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According to GLAAD media director Stephen Macias, who viewed a copy of the special, the contestants referred to their experience as "their worst nightmare" and complained of being "trapped in gay hell."

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And Fox couldn't see how bigotted this was? Amazing.

_____________________

I still see dead lesbian cliches

Edited by: sam7777  at: 5/28/04 10:54 am

Originally posted by sapphocrazygirl

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Alright all, I just had to add my 2c about S6 DVD as released in the US, seeing as I'm an unemployed college chick who spent the better part of the last two days watching it...



If you all get your hands on a copy, you should check out the Season 6 summary. Part of it does deal with Tara, and they talk about how whenever a couple is happy on the Hellmouth, you know something's going to go wrong, and also that S6 was a lot about how "life is the big bad," how it's difficult just to live and especially to deal with things that happen in your life that you can't change with mystical stuff.



I have to say that I have always been a W/t girl, and always hated ME for killing Tara. But (and this from the eighteen-year-old who faithfully watched 6am reruns for her first taste of Buffy and screamed "What?!!" at the end of Seeing Red and proceeded to cry for quite a long time) I am sort of coming around to their way of thinking, or at least I can see their logic; they are right about no happy couples on the Hellmouth, and about life being not changed by mystical things.



I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm not sure that Tara's death is part of the "evil/dead lesbian cliche". I think that Joss and the other directors/writers/producers really did care about Tara and didn't just cater to some cultural need to see lesbianism immediately countered by evil or death. Tara's death serves more of the Buffyverse plotline than some big archaic thing.



There can't be happy couples on the Hellmouth. At the same time you can't get rid of Tara by getting Willow distracted by another lover, by Willow's use of magick, by Tara going crazy, or by making Tara evil, because you've already dealt with all those options. Really killing her can seem like the primary option. You can't vamp her because no one is going to buy into Evil Tara. You can't really have any demon kill her because then you deal with Buffy not protecting her and that would create lots of angst and guilt. But to have her die, like Joyce, in an uncontrollable and human way, is really sort of humane if you think about it. Because people do get shot, and you can't fix it, and grief is just bloody overwhelming.



If Joss and ME hadn't wanted lesbians on the show, why was there the B/F factor? Why Tara in the first place? I don't think any of us would have questioned it if Willow had fallen in love with another guy, rather than meeting Tara (yes, this is heresy, but seriously, think pre-Doppelganger - did we have any clues preceeding that?). And if they had wanted to dispense easily of Tara, why did they make her so sweet and loving and wonderful? The only problem with Tara, ever, was that she had demon in her - and hey, that was a big fat lie.



I think Joss Whedon actually did much more for the lesbian culture than a lot of people are willing to give him credit for. He did something really risque that might have lost him a lot of viewers, but he did it anyway. He showed that lesbians aren't evil, that they are happy together, that they go through difficult times with friends and parents, that they don't corrupt small children, that they're not immoral, that they have religion and kindness and goodness.



And in this culture, honestly, I feel as a lesbian that I have very little to go on. You put a lesbian (or gay for that matter) couple in a movie and immediately it's "the gay movie." It seems like our culture can't deal with the fact that being gay, coming out, being in a relationship can be second-fiddle to a larger plot; but Joss did that for us. He did what he could to write sex scenes under the bar, like the Flaming O, so that the censors let it pass but the audience got the drift. And he gave us beautiful moments like Hush and New Moon Rising and Entropy and so many other subtle things, just looks and gestures sometimes, that obviously have touched a lot of our hearts.



I will never be happy that Tara died, ever. But I am grateful to Joss for the other things that he did with her, for the beautiful characters he created and the relationship that just flowed between them with so much beauty.

Agreed the dead lesbian cliche is what we got. It's discouraging that we are still having the same discussion that is clearly addressed in this thread and the FAQ. Tara's death truly means nothing if it can't be recognized as the type of cliches that got "The Celluloid Closet" written and are still with us today. Simply seeing the intolerance and bigotry shown towards gay marriage should show us how long the road still is for gays to have equal rights. TV portrayals of tragic gays feeds into the latent homophobia of people even if it is not intended to do so.



Joss Whedon was planning Tara's death as early as the start of 5th season. It was always intended to end in death. He never intended to have a happy lesbian couple. His making Tara sympathetic 6th season was simply to twist the knife he stuck into gay and gay friendly fans. He may try to convice people he's some kind of gay hero but I don't buy it. He hurt further an already marginalized group. There are plenty of hetero relationships so if a few end tragically it has much less impact. There are so few gay relationships that each tragedy hits like an atom bomb. Willow/Tara could have been a real benchmark ala Trek's interracial kiss: the first long term lesbian couple not to end in death. Instead we got the dead lesbian/evil cliche. I give Joss Whedon credit for not having the guts to see the benchmark and give us the same old cliches. In other works, I don't give him any credit.



As for no happy romances on the Hellmouth, granted most relationships ended but only two ended in death: Giles/Jenny and Willow/Tara. Anya died after breaking up with Xander and her death was not the cause of the breakup. Riley, Oz, Angel, Spike, Scott Hope and even Parker all got to live. Only the lesbian had to die. I don't believe that Oz would have been killed as Tara was. He was a regular character while Tara was kept as a recurring character marked for death: a literal "red shirt". Jenny's death meant something as she dies to protect the spell to restore Angel's soul. Tara's death meant nothing but turning her lover evil as if to say lesbianism can make you evil. The metaphor of magic=lesbianism was extended to magic=lesbianism=evil. Joyce's death already made the point of dying from human causes. Why be so unimaginative as to do it again with Tara? It wasn't humane. It was cruel.



In addition to the cliche put on the screen, we got lies and snarky comments from the writers afterwards. Tara was forgotten as soon as the body bag was carried out so that her death meant nothing. Just another woman dead for the crime of daring to love another woman. Truly the love that dare not speak it's name as Oscar Wilde said. We've seen this before in the likes of "The Children's Hour" and "The Fox". They were both groundbreaking for their time and not intended to give a lesson against lesbianism but now we can see them for the cliches they are. In future, I hope Tara's death will be seen as the damaging cliche it was. Joss Whedon made TV safe again for the dead/evil lesbian cliche as we saw on ER and AMC. Dead lesbians are safer than alive ones in a committed relationship because that is too much like gay marriage. LA Vess said it best in When Readers Attack:

Quote:

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Some readers have noted that Whedon always intended to kill off Willow's lover - male or female, so it shouldn't matter she was gay. Yes, and no. No, it shouldn't matter that it was a gay relationship that ended so horribly. But it SHOULD matter that Whedon was solely responsible for creating such a positive, realistic lesbian relationship, something very rare on network television. In creating this, and seeing the incredible response from the gay community to seeing that relationship on the show - wouldn't it be fair to ask him to reconsider his plot twist in order to keep the relationship alive? In my very personal opinion, I think so.

---

As Amber said at Fedcon (posted by Kulaka), the death of Tara hurt alot of people and was completely senseless. Are we to forget all the people who were hurt and discouraged by yet another dead lesbian on the screen because it says in the the season 6 summary on the DVD that no couples can be happy? That's no excuse for me. I've been around alot longer than 18 years and I see things getting worse again with people trying to not only prevent gay marriage but even limit partner rights for gays. Gay rights are being taken away. Good PR is needed like having a long term lving lesbian relationship that doesn't not end in death. We need more than just "sweeps lesbians" as Liz Friedman put it who only kiss and have sex for sweeps. We also need couples that have happy and sad times but can still stay committed like the many married heteros we see on TV.



Just when I thought there would be one lesbian couple to survive, Joss Whedon betrayed us with the same hurtful cliches. His action actually did a great deal of damage to lebian portrayals IMHO. He showed us again that when two women are in love one must die or turn evil or both while two women just having sex are allowed to survive as male titillation. Now there is no lesbian couple on primetime network TV and little prospect for one next season. This is progress? No it's just discouraging and depressing. We deserve better than this but this is all we will get if we don't point out what is wrong with gay portrayals in the media.

_____________________

I still see dead lesbian cliches

Edited by: sam7777  at: 5/29/04 9:53 am

Thank you Warduke and sam7777 for your eloquent responses to sapphocrazygirl. Bravo.

Many of us here on the board have been going down this road for more than two years. I find it very depressing that folks STILL have to counter all the JW and ME bullshit, even on this board.

Some people will just never "get it."

Just my two cents.

Edited by: emma peel at: 5/30/04 8:46 pm

actually your two cents, my two cents..........



voting yes to the big ole lesbian cliche, and voting yes to very lame and inane storytelling. season six basically destroyed the charaters and turned Buffy from a show about a female hero and her friends (family) saving the world into a show about ..... well I won't write it because being a W/T shipper I don't really care what happened after Tara got a whole in her shirt

sapphocrazygirl, I have tried to make sense of this as well, but unlike you, I did not succeed. I want to reply to some of your statements, if I sounds snippy then that is not directed at you, but rather the ME writers and their excuses. They bring the snip out in me.

Quote:

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I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm not sure that Tara's death is part of the "evil/dead lesbian cliche". I think that Joss and the other directors/writers/producers really did care about Tara and didn't just cater to some cultural need to see lesbianism immediately countered by evil or death. Tara's death serves more of the Buffyverse plotline than some big archaic thing.

---

Don´t you think the same can be said for all the other writers and movie makers that kill off their lesbian characters? I don´t know them personally, but I don´t believe all of them did it because they personally hate lesbians. I am sure most of them could come up with great reasons like "but in this movie no couple is happy". What makes killing off Tara and having Willow go insane and evil a cliche is the fact that this is what happens most of the time to lesbian characters, no matter what movie or TV show you watch. On ER you could claim, ah but people die in the ER all the time, so what if the only two gay firefighters/paramedics have met a flamey death? Joss Whedon could be gay himself, his entire family and all his friends could be gay, he could sit in front of a shrine every day and pray for only good things for all gay mankind, that still does not make the storyline any less of a cliche.

Quote:

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But to have her die, like Joyce, in an uncontrollable and human way, is really sort of humane if you think about it. Because people do get shot, and you can't fix it, and grief is just bloody overwhelming.

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Yes people do get shot, I know what a senseless death of a loved one feels like. I don´t need Joss Whedon to tell me. There is nothing humane about murder.

Quote:

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He showed that lesbians aren't evil, that they are happy together, that they go through difficult times with friends and parents, that they don't corrupt small children, that they're not immoral, that they have religion and kindness and goodness.

---

Well and he got plenty of thanks when that is what we got to see, but I do not owe him my eternal gratitude. Once I realized that all he had blatantly lied to us before killing Tara and then proceeded to mock us and act like an arrogant fuck afterwards, he sort of lost his charm for me.

In the end he showed that yes lesbians can be happy, but it won´t last. Something senseless will happen and you will die or you will try to destroy the world. I am sure the homophobic parent of this world will love to show that message to the kids.



To me, their logic is a cop out. It´s very easy to say "no couple is happy on the hellmouth, end of story". I started watching this show before WT and I loved it, because -despite the darkness- it was positive. I did not love it because I thought everyone would end up miserable or dead. I can watch the news for that. They invented their own cliche: "no character or couple can be happy on our show". How original is that.

If it helps you deal with this story of theirs and enable you to enjoy this show then you are lucky, it did not work. I would like to see the majority of L,G,B or T character live out a happy life, because I am told that happens too in reality.

Okay, okay, all, backing up, hands in the air. Sincere apologies that you all reacted so strongly to what I said. It occurs to me that this was not the place to suggest what I did, and I apologize for that. I was/am trying to find a balance between the Joss Whedon whom I thank for creating BtVS and W/T, but also the Joss whom I am angry with for destroying a beautiful relationship. I guess I don't understand it well enough as of yet. Thank you for your replies because I am always happy to see people debate clearly and well - even if they are disagreeing with me.



I think I'll just go back to writing my fanfic and stay away from philosophy for now.

---

"You see, I think love comes from God. And so, to turn away from love, real love, it could be argued, is to turn away from God." - Dare Truth or Promise

Sapphocrazygirl – I don’t think you should back down one iota, nor let the people on this board bully you into a way of thinking that you don’t agree with. You obviously read this board, watched Season 6, and came to your own conclusions. Those are valid conclusions, regardless of whether this board agrees with them or not.

At least it might be nice to know that not everyone thinks the way the progenitors of the lesbian FAQ do.

Edited by: xita  at: 5/31/04 8:34 pm

amazonchyck - what part of my post was bullying?



I expressed my opinion just like others did.



Why are my conclusions any less valid than yours or anyone else's? You are free to yours as I am to mine - I don't label yours as angry or snippy though, so please don't do that to me.

Edited by: dekalog at: 5/31/04 11:17 am

I didn't think yours was, dekalog. And yes, you do have a right to your opinion. I don't believe I've ever had a problem with anything you've posted.

My opinions on these subjects are pretty well covered in the FAQ itself, so I'll just let that stand rather than reiterating my opinions.



amazonchyck, I don't think people have crossed the line into bullying, here . . . no one has insulted sapphocrazygirl personally, or implied she doesn't have a right to whatever opinions or conclusions she holds. The closest anyone came was one person calling part of her post offensive, but on a Willow/Tara board this subject is, honestly, likely to result in some strong feelings.



On a lot of boards - not just this one - where a large number of people have similar feelings, I've seen many situations where people are accused of attacking a person with a differing point of view. And I can see how it can feel that way when there's a "pile-on" of people telling someone they're wrong.



But honestly, as long as the discourse remains polite, personal insults are avoided, and people don't get banned just for having a different point of view, there isn't an really attack going on at all - just people saying, quite calmly and rationally, what they think, in an attempt to express their point of view and make convincing arguments. There's no crime just in disagreeing with someone strongly, and it's not bullying, even if one side is bigger than the other on this board.

Lost in Ecstacy

I've already said in the course of a conversation with you earlier in this thread that I do not personally believe that anyone, ever, should have their comments edited or deleted, but that I don't run this board and I understand and respect the reasoning of those who do.



My comments referred to the conversation with sapphocrazygirl, who as far as I can tell has not had any of her comments edited or deleted, so I stand by what I said regarding her not being bullied.



As to whether or not you've been bullied, I'd have to know what you said and why it was edited before I formed an opinion. You can e-mail me at kyraroc-at-yahoo-dot-com if you like.



--- KR

Lost in Ecstacy

We edit things that break the FAQ.



And if anyone has any questions or issues regarding the moderation of the board, then email the mods.

---

Firefox: One Browser To Rule Them All.

Originally posted by WillowPowered



I apologise in advance if this is the wrong place for this. I'm sure a kind mod will fix it up if it isn't. This is also based on hearsay so if my facts are incorrect I apologise for that too.



Ok, here I go. . . .



Apparently in the latest Buffy magazine there is an interview with Nick Brendan (YAY). In the interview he says that they toyed with the idea of killing off Xander but they didn't do it because they thought the fans would be upset by it.



Now wait just one cotton picking minute If they are not willing to kill Xander off because they think the fans will get upset what were they thinking when they gave Tara the chop?? Did they think the fans would rejoice or at the very least shrug their shoulders and go "all well she was nice while she was around."



Finding out that little tidbit lowered Toss and the rest of the decision makers even further in my opinion (and I thought that wasn't possible).



Anyway I'm sure I'll be able to be a little more eloquent once I calm down a little

Jill

Edited by: Repost Moderator at: 6/6/04 10:11 pm

Well...it would sort of depend on whether they had those considerations AFTER they killed Tara or before. For example, if they toyed with the idea of killing Xander in Season 7 (instead of taking out just his eye), then one could logically say that perhaps they didn't want to piss off fans twice. If they had those considerations prior to Season 6, then it's a valid argument. My assumption would be that they likely thought about it in Season 7, but I haven't read the interview, so...

even if you were going to write "it was a dark and stormy ____" whether it was day or night and it turned out to be night, the phrase "it was a dark and stormy night" is still a cliche.

Sweetie, I'm a fag. I been there. - Tara (Dead Things shooting script)

sprhrgrl: Too true. ME can make all the excuses they want to as to their motives but what I saw on the screen was the dead lesbian cliche. Nothing that I've seen or read after has changed my mind.



WillowPowered: I believe that Tara was always meant to die hence the character's recurring status. ME did not kill a regular character until the last eps of their shows when frankly it matters little and is a gutless time to do it. IMHO ME showed their contempt for the fans with the nasty things they said in interviews about fans who complained about the dead lesbian cliche as exemplified by Drew Greenberg calling one Kitten a homophobe (it's in this thread). In addition, ME added digs to the kittens and gay fans in episodes that followed SR that showed their continued contempt after season sux (as this is outside the FAQ send me a message via the Kittenboard for details). ME has certainly earned my contempt and I will certainly never watch anything by them again.



sapphocrazygirl: I apologize if I came on too strong. I can sympathize. I simply cannot reconcile the Joss Whedon who created W/T with the Josswad who ended it in the dead lesbian cliche. The only thing that explains it to me is that he didn't give a damn about the issues as he said in an interview: "I didn't care about the issues when Tara was introduced nor those when she died". Josswad took the kudos from us and the gay press when Tara was introduced with alot of talk about how gay friendly he was but actions spoke louder than words when he ended it in the dead lesbian cliche.



Truth is to me that Aly and Amber's performance is what made Willow and Tara special to me and they both certainly cared about the issues and were proud to be lesbian role models. Sometimes a character or story becomes larger than it's original conception. Josswad never cared about what Willow/Tara had become to many gay and gay friendly fans. As LA Vess said:

Quote:

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In creating this, and seeing the incredible response from the gay community to seeing that relationship on the show - wouldn't it be fair to ask him to reconsider his plot twist in order to keep the relationship alive? In my very personal opinion, I think so.

---

IMHO instead of giving us a benchmark in TV to rival Star Trek's interracial kiss between Kirk and Uhura: the first long term in love lesbian relationship not to end in death or evil. Josswad gave us a poorly written and cliched plot twist due to a lack of social conscience combined with a failing talent IMHO. A combination guaranteed to make me never want to see any more of Joss Whedon's work.

_____________________

I still see dead lesbian cliches

Edited by: sam7777  at: 6/28/04 9:46 am

Ok Im venting here, sorry if this is bringing stuff up.



Ok Im on a number of mailing lists, on one I happened to say, among other things, that I did not like Him. Then I clarified my position by saying it was salt in a w/t shippers wounds. Well you can gyuess what happened next, the resident 'The Sun shines out of Joss Whedons ass, really!' came out and the fur flied.



And guess what occurred, well for starters I, and pretty much all of you, were accused of Biphobia!!!!!!



oh i guess that I better shun all my bisexual friends now . So disliking Him, finding just a little offensive makes one a biphobe? this individual went on to claim that Willow was canonically quite possibly bisexual. I thru it back tho by asking why tjis person was a lesbophobe, why is it wrong for a girl to like girls and only girls?

But the clincher was when discussing the lesbian cliche this person said 'If they killed Oz instead of Tara would that have been a male hetero cliche?' what an ignoramus! shows that this person didnt have the slightest clue what a lesbian cliche was. Theyd heard that Joss denied he used a cliche and that was good enuff for them.



sorry had to vent

My Country is the World. My Coutrymen Mankind-Thomas Paine

Oh, bleh. I'm sorry, that sucks. I know it's frustrating to butt heads like that with people when they just don't understand.



Male hetero cliche? Okaaaay, whatever.



The issue, at least the way I see it, is that it's not so much the details of one individual portrayal on one particular show, so much as it's a case of that individual portrayal fitting a larger pattern. In the absence of more positive or at least neutral portrayals, it serves to reinforce those negative ideas, regardless of the creator's intentions.

---

i wasn't sniffing your spicy brains

The Angry Lion, I think in cases like this you need to remember the saying, "Don't wrestle with pigs, you get dirty and they enjoy it"

What other people think of me is none of my business - Ellen Degeneres

thanks justin and holly looking back on it it is quite funny, biphobia? reminds me of when that guy called web warlock a homophobe, I mean why were they so obsessed about defending Him, even non-kittens I know think it wasnt that great , just a rehash of bewitched, bothered and bewildered but not half as funny

My Country is the World. My Coutrymen Mankind-Thomas Paine

Originally posted by Spring

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OK this isnt going to make me very popular around here but oh well.

Why the heck are all of you Joss haters? Without Joss there would have been no Amber Benson on Buffy, there would have been no Tara, and there would have been no Will/Tara on Buffy at all.

I've heard some call Joss a homophobe because he killed Tara but I hardly think thats true considering he made his favorite character, Willow, gay, and she managed to not only make it out of the show alive, but also was given a ton of screentime.



Yes, I hated that Tara died. It broke my heart in half. But can we hate a man, and completely discount all the good things he did for acceptance of homosexuality just because we don't like that he killed off our favorite character?



Also, I highly doubt that Joss goes around badmouthing Amber. He speaks very highly of her and she of him. I'm sure he was unhappy to be unable to bring Tara back as the first, but I doubt he'd use that as grounds for badmouthing her. He's a professional and this is his job.