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The Politics Thread - Read the First Post

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Re: The Public Domain Act

Postby darkmagicwillow » Fri Jun 27, 2003 3:14 pm

Copyright is a compromise between users and creators, wherein the public has granted creators a temporary, limited monopoly in order to encourage them to create. It's important to note that violating a copyright is not theft; it's a violation of a legal monopoly granted by the public government (ever wonder why they're called royalties, btw?) However, as with any monopoly, copyright's power can be misused, especially with its huge expansion in recent years with the Sonny Bono Act and the DMCA.



Unfortunately the public has no idea what the 142-pages of the US copyright statute actually state, and what they think that copyright states is very wrong. Until recently though, the public's impression was not a bad approximation of how copyright was enforced. Today there is a very serious possibility of losing the right to read. Here is a short excerpt from The Right to Read:
For Dan Halbert, the road to Tycho began in college--when Lissa Lenz asked to borrow his computer. Hers had broken down, and unless she could borrow another, she would fail her midterm project. There was no one she dared ask, except Dan.



This put Dan in a dilemma. He had to help her--but if he lent her his computer, she might read his books. Aside from the fact that you could go to prison for many years for letting someone else read your books, the very idea shocked him at first. Like everyone, he had been taught since elementary school that sharing books was nasty and wrong--something that only pirates would do.



And there wasn't much chance that the SPA--the Software Protection Authority--would fail to catch him. In his software class, Dan had learned that each book had a copyright monitor that reported when and where it was read, and by whom, to Central Licensing. (They used this information to catch reading pirates, but also to sell personal interest profiles to retailers.) The next time his computer was networked, Central Licensing would find out. He, as computer owner, would receive the harshest punishment--for not taking pains to prevent the crime.



Of course, Lissa did not necessarily intend to read his books. She might want the computer only to write her midterm. But Dan knew she came from a middle-class family and could hardly afford the tuition, let alone her reading fees. Reading his books might be the only way she could graduate. He understood this situation; he himself had had to borrow to pay for all the research papers he read. (10% of those fees went to the researchers who wrote the papers; since Dan aimed for an academic career, he could hope that his own research papers, if frequently referenced, would bring in enough to repay this loan.)



Later on, Dan would learn there was a time when anyone could go to the library and read journal articles, and even books, without having to pay. There were independent scholars who read thousands of pages without government library grants. But in the 1990s, both commercial and nonprofit journal publishers had begun charging fees for access. By 2047, libraries offering free public access to scholarly literature were a dim memory.
I thought it was hyperbole at the time, but not more than a couple years after it was published, textbooks in some medical and dental programs began appearing on digital media, with software that made them expire after the end of the term, so students have to pay every term. There are bills proposed to create funding for educating students that this is the way things should be, and libraries are already having great difficulting dealing with the exorbitant costs and limited usability of digital media.



The DMCA was passed, making it illegal to circumvent copy protection schemes, meaning that it's illegal to turn the new copy-protected CD's into MP3's to play on your computer or to make a backup CD to use in your car, both of which I do. The DMCA also allows corporations to copy-protect a work that's out of copyright, like Shakespeare, and thus control its use. All digital books and DVDs come with some form of copy protection, no matter how simple and useless for preventing copying, so they can take advantage of this law to gain absolute control over how you use their media. Reverse engineering to make your software compatible with Microsoft's file formats or network protocols is illegal in many instances under the DMCA too. Copyright not only restricts what readers can do, it also prevents creators from building new works. The Internet expansion would've never happened under the DMCA.



The RIAA has begun suing individuals for downloading songs, which has always been illegal but now copyright is a criminal offence and they're going after individuals, so it's clear that companies will use these laws against individuals to eliminate the right to read if they think it will help their profits.

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

Edited by: darkmagicwillow at: 6/27/03 2:16 pm
darkmagicwillow
 


Re: The Public Domain Act

Postby justin » Sat Jun 28, 2003 3:36 am

Quote:
However, as with any monopoly, copyright's power can be misused, especially with its huge expansion in recent years with the Sonny Bono Act and the DMCA.




I think, to put it bluntly, that the DMCA is evil and I hope that similar laws don't get introduced in Europe.



The problem is that under DMCA it isn't illegal just illegal to copy something, it is illegal to break the copy protection on it even if you don't intend to copy it. Even if the copy protection means that you can't use it.



For example the protection on e-books means that they are incompatible with screen readers. meaning that blind and partially sighted people are prohibited from using them.



Another is the fact that the copy protection on DVDs lets the publishing companies determine which operating system you have to use if you want to watch the DVDs you paid for. If you use a non standard OS like GNU/Linux, or worse still GNU/HURD, then you're out of luck.



DMW, I agree with your comments about copyright hindering creativity if they're too severe. After all Shakespeare based most of his plays on works produced by other people. Or to use a more modern example Disney made most of their money making cartoons based on Fairy tales. Yet if Disney get their way and make Copyright indefinite then people will never ever be able to produce anything based on Disney's works. They're trying to deny people the same rights that allowed them to make their money in the first place. :rage When it comes to companies I dislike Disney are right up there with Microsoft.



Kieli said

Quote:
I respectfully disagree with that observation. It was my understanding that copyright law came into affect pretty much the way patent law did: to protect the rights of the inventor (creator, author, what-have-you) and prevent theft of any kind (i.e. for profit, for notoriety, etc.). I've noticed that there have been more lawsuits and other kinds of litigation within the past half century or so for copyright infringment and other sorts of copyright problems. Why is this, one wonders? I think it's because people are starting to understand how much of an umbrella copyright law is (read: they've figured out the loopholes ;) ).




I think most of our disagreements come down to this difference in our views over the basis of copyright. Though can we agree that the point of copyright isn't to protect the commercial interests of publishing companies?



BTW, you say that patent laws are there to protect inventors. To be honest I thought they existed soley in order to make money for patent lawyers :wink



Quote:
It's tough to try to please all; I don't think any law truly can.




The problem with copyright law at the moment is that the people making the laws aren't trying to please everyone. They're just trying to please the various lobbying groups.



Quote:
That I would agree with to a point. It depends on who holds the copyright. If a museum, archive or other such preservational entity purchased the copyright in order to protect the items, then the spirit of that statement makes sense.




My first response to that was that buying the copyright of every item they exhibit would be very expensive. In fact if they were required to do so then I think a lot of museums would go out of business.



Even if it was optional how would the museums benefit from owning the copyright of the items on display, rather than them just being in the public domain. Let's say a museum bought the copy right for the complete works of Virginia Woolf. ISTM the only effect of this would be it would be impossible for someone to write a version of Mrs Dalloway from the point of view of a minor character. Again I don't see how anyone benefits from that, least of all the museum that stumped up for the copyright.



Quote:
The key word here is most and not all. If ALL works were profitable within that time period, I'd say that would be an acceptable risk. But what about the authors, inventors, etc, who die without having made a cent on their creations only to have them become popular YEARS later and others make money on their creations? Not all inventors, authors, etc make an actual profit initially.




But in this case the length of copyright seems to be irrelevant. If the product doesn't make any money till after the creator died then even if copyright is indefinite they can't benefit from their creation, since they're dead.



Quote:
Sometimes they don't make anything at all. Don't you think the estate of those people deserves to have some say about what happens to the legacy of deceased in that case? These things can and do happen and probably more often than we can ever know.




In a word, no. Why should they be the sole beneficiaries of someone else work?



Quote:
But that was the CHOICE of the creator and not because they were unable to keep their copyright after a certain period. If one creates something knowing that they will not get to keep it because they are using someone else's materials in order to create that item, then that is a totally different matter. If they choose to freely give away their rights to that item, that is their concern.




Okay I'll concede this point. You're right it is their choice to be wage slaves, and to sell their creativity and labour power to someone else, who can make their money by exploiting the work of other people.



Quote:
But there is quite the difference between the savvy musicians who create their own companies in order to retain complete control over their works and the newbie musicians who know nothing about the industry or the business and get the short end.




Which reminds me of the speech that Courtney love made about how in the music industry the real pirates aren't people who copy and redistribute songs, but are in fact the recording studios.



As to people who form their own companies to keep control of their own work, well more power to them. It's just where does the money for this come from? I think that for the penniless musician who's just starting out, this isn't an option.



Quote:
I understand your position but I don't necessarily agree that the Public Domain Act would actually be a good thing. Quite the contrary...I think it would continue to muddy the already murky waters of copyright law and how it is being used today.




Likewise I can see where you're coming from.



Regarding the PDA I don't think it's strong enough, but it's probably the best we can hope for.



I understand, you should be with the person you l-love


I am


justin
 


Re: The Public Domain Act

Postby Triscuit7 » Sat Jun 28, 2003 6:15 am

Hey all



RE: copyright.

Often those works of literature that have fallen out of copyright are the books that appear on lots of school reading lists. This is one area in any bookstore that you're likely to find choices, i.e. editions from different publishers. The text is mostly the same (Shakespeare would be an exception), the differences are in the introductions, the commentaries, and the notes and more superficially with the binding and cover. Most publishers (& imprints) have their own line: Signet, Penguin, Doubleday, Washington Square Press. Recently Barnes and Noble began re-issuing new editions of their classics line. They're coming out in three formats (MM, trade and bargain HC) and at really decent prices for the consumer. Needless to say finding the right one for the student can be an adventure. Also, this open access is why during the holidays you can walk into most chain bookstores and find leatherbound editions of Shakespeare and Poe for $20. It can be a very good thing for the consumer (and the bookstore/publisher).



I frequently get asked questions about books: why X is not on the shelf, why Y isn't available, why Z is out of print. The answer is that books have an inordinately short shelf life. New books hang around for 3 months in most cases, 6 mths if they're bestsellers (or if someone on store staff is fond of the book/author). Then it's back to the publisher with them, with HCs getting a second life on the bargain table (btw authors see zero royalties on bargain books...). The publisher or distributor may warehouse a few hundred copies for a year or two, and then the book is gone with no opportunity for the author to make additional $ on sales on it. This is MOST books. Some select few do well enough that get "modelled"; they're books which the 'powers that be' have determined MUST be on the shelf at all times (for a few years) - these are the authors' backlist titles. After 10 years in books I still can't make sense of the criteria that the PTBs use for this (why do I have to have all of Hubbard's Battlefield Earth series?!!!). Sometimes my fiddling (suggestive selling the book constantly) makes an impression, sometimes it doesn't. Now imagine a world with reduced copyright protection. Authors whose books didn't sell - whose publisher didn't get behind the book (thinks of the first go-round of the Lee/Miller Liaden series which was destroyed in warehouse to make room for a new Stephen King) - they would have a second chance to see their books fly. Granted they would receive no royalties from that, but how is this different from now? Their books aren't available... And just imagine the great commentaries that you could find on Herbert's Dune, or Tolkien's Lord of the Rings, or Bujold's Civil Action, or Cherryh's Downbelow Station. That would be just awesome.



As a writer I can see both sides. Part of me screams, "no, I want every chance to benefit from work!" and part of me says more rationally "but isn't it great that folks are able to read it again....?"



Just an observation from someone who manages a bookstore and spends far too much of her life there.



Ciao, Melissa

******************



I brought marshmallows!

Triscuit7
 


Re: The Public Domain Act

Postby darkmagicwillow » Sat Jun 28, 2003 6:38 am

Triscuit, thanks for sharing your perspective and knowledge from managing a bookstore. I learned a few things from your post; I've always been annoyed by the short, shelf life of books too. Another reason for the Public Domain Act is allowing books to eventually be put on the web. See the online books page and A Celebration of Women Writers for examples.



Justin, since I saw you commenting on patents making money, I should point out that one of the reasons patents are so out of control--being granted for obvious works or being so vague as to allow their owners to sue anyone and being granted on obvious business methods like one-click shopping--is that the Patent Office makes money for the government with every patent granted. Here's how patents are used in the real world from the article Patently Absurd in Forbes magazine:
There are those who view the patent system as the seedbed of capitalism--the place where ideas and new technologies are nurtured. This is a romantic myth. In reality, patents are enormously powerful competitive weapons that are proliferating dangerously, and the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office (USPTO) has all the trappings of a revenue-driven, institutionalized arms merchant.



My own introduction to the realities of the patent system came in the 1980s, when my client, Sun Microsystems--then a small company--was accused by IBM of patent infringement. Threatening a massive lawsuit, IBM demanded a meeting to present its claims. Fourteen IBM lawyers and their assistants, all clad in the requisite dark blue suits, crowded into the largest conference room Sun had.



The chief blue suit orchestrated the presentation of the seven patents IBM claimed were infringed, the most prominent of which was IBM's notorious "fat lines" patent: To turn a thin line on a computer screen into a broad line, you go up and down an equal distance from the ends of the thin line and then connect the four points. You probably learned this technique for turning a line into a rectangle in seventh-grade geometry, and, doubtless, you believe it was devised by Euclid or some such 3,000-year-old thinker. Not according to the examiners of the USPTO, who awarded IBM a patent on the process.

...

An awkward silence ensued. The blue suits did not even confer among themselves. They just sat there, stonelike. Finally, the chief suit responded. "OK," he said, "maybe you don't infringe these seven patents. But we have 10,000 U.S. patents. Do you really want us to go back to Armonk [IBM headquarters in New York] and find seven patents you do infringe? Or do you want to make this easy and just pay us $20 million?"



After a modest bit of negotiation, Sun cut IBM a check, and the blue suits went to the next company on their hit list.
Here's the core of the problem with current patent policy:
But too many patents are just as bad for society as too few. The undisciplined proliferation of patent grants puts vast sectors of the economy off-limits to competition, without any corresponding benefit to the public.
Unfortunately as with copyright law, the US government makes its opinion on the subject by consulting patent lawyers, not entrepreneurs or the public.

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

darkmagicwillow
 


Re: The Public Domain Act

Postby justin » Sat Jun 28, 2003 8:56 am

Quote:
I should point out that one of the reasons patents are so out of control--being granted for obvious works or being so vague as to allow their owners to sue anyone and being granted on obvious business methods like one-click shopping--is that the Patent Office makes money for the government with every patent granted




I didn't know that. I had always thought that the main problem was that the Patent office was so overloaded with applications that they had to rubber stamp them in order to get through them all. I didn't think there was a financial incentive for them to approve as many insane patents as possible.



If anyone wants to argue the point that a lot of patents are insane, there is a patent for "exercising a cat using a laser", nuff said.



Quote:
But too many patents are just as bad for society as too few. The undisciplined proliferation of patent grants puts vast sectors of the economy off-limits to competition, without any corresponding benefit to the public.




I couldn't agree more. Especially when it comes to software, the number of patents around make producing an independent project into something of a minefield. Since programs are made from lots of different components, there's a very good chance that a single program will violate a lot of patents. How does that encourage inovation?



I understand, you should be with the person you l-love


I am


justin
 


Re: The Public Domain Act

Postby Kieli » Sat Jun 28, 2003 4:52 pm

I think that there needs to be some clarification on the actual history of patenting versus the monopoly monstrosity that some think it has become. I doubt that big business makes up the majority of those who seek patents and copyrights. Probably quite the contrary. However, it seems that the indiscretions of corporate bigwigs are the only things that make the news. Here are a few good links into the actual history of patenting and copyrights:

The History of Patent

History of Copyright

Intellectual Property: The History of Copyright

A History of Patents: UK Site

Patent Law: An Overview (be sure to check out the secondary links to the right of the window that opens...they're worth reading).



What I wonder is, how US Patent and Copyright legislation will affect International Patent and Copyright law. The European Patent Office and the World Intellectual Property Office are both the authorities dealing with such things on the other side of the pond. Anyone know what their take is on this?



Quote:
Though can we agree that the point of copyright isn't to protect the commercial interests of publishing companies?


That's not entirely true. I take it you're anti-corporate?

Quote:
BTW, you say that patent laws are there to protect inventors. To be honest I thought they existed soley in order to make money for patent lawyers


If you'll take a look at the links I've provided above you might find that this statement is not entirely true. That may be your observation based on the media hype of copyright and patent infringement and so forth, but do realise that the media is quite a biased entity so basing your opinion solely on that information may not give your argument enough leverage.

Quote:
The problem with copyright law at the moment is that the people making the laws aren't trying to please everyone. They're just trying to please the various lobbying groups.


That might very well be true in some instances. But only the ones that make the news, I'll wager. I still think that the majority of the copyrights and patents being given are for people who don't work for corporations, publishing houses, etc. They're just the average person trying to protect themselves from theft. Plain and simple. Copyright and patent laws protect them as well. We can't simply be reactionary and be against such laws without really knowing who they affect (and I can guarantee you, no matter what happens, big business won't be affected one iota. Look at Bill Gates. Despite the court ruling against him earlier, the man is STILL a multibillionaire and his monster software machine still keeps churning).

Quote:
But in this case the length of copyright seems to be irrelevant. If the product doesn't make any money till after the creator died then even if copyright is indefinite they can't benefit from their creation, since they're dead.



In a word, no. Why should they be the sole beneficiaries of someone else work?


I disagree with this. Especially if the inventor expressly wishes that his/her family receive compensation for the fruits of their labours. In fact, how fair would it be for you to create something, have the copyright statute of limitations run out, then have someone else buy your copyright then turn around and make the fortune that, honestly, should be yours? There should be a reasonable time statute for copyrights. Ten years just doesn't cut it IMHO.



As far as museums go, since I work for a museum, there are rules that we must follow to keep from breaking any copyright or patent rules. This document gives some explanation of the rule we must follow. The Museum Registrar also has a series of documents that he/she must fill out in order to obtain permission to use or acquire certain works. I've got more details in my office. I'll post them on Monday.














Time flies by when the Devil drives.
It's not the pace of life that concerns me, it's the sudden stop at the end.

Kieli
 


Re: The Public Domain Act

Postby darkmagicwillow » Sat Jun 28, 2003 6:13 pm

What I wonder is, how US Patent and Copyright legislation will affect International Patent and Copyright law. The European Patent Office and the World Intellectual Property Office are both the authorities dealing with such things on the other side of the pond. Anyone know what their take is on this?
The EU is just moving to standardize and expand their patent system to match the US's. Here is a recent article on the creation of EU software patents. It is still more difficult to get a patent approved in Europe, and I hope that will continue.
They're just the average person trying to protect themselves from theft.
While our laws have always protected the average person's monopoly rights with statues governing copyrights and patents and that's both a social and a personal good, it's important to dispel the misconception that copyright infringement is theft; it's clear that the infraction is something different for the obvious reason that the creator still has the "object" that was supposedly stolen. I'm blanking on the proper legal terms for this at the moment, which explain this in detail. This is fairly clear legally, or we wouldn't need copyright laws at all; we could just use existing laws against theft.
Copyright and patent laws protect them as well. We can't simply be reactionary and be against such laws without really knowing who they affect
I'm not reactionary; I've read the recent copyright laws, along with several books about them and the history of copyright and patents, and while I completely support our original copyright law and a few of its expansions to allow for technological changes, I'm against the big change made with the Copyright Act of 1909 from "printing" to "copying," extending copyright into the personal sphere, and I'm also against almost all of the later expansions of copyright. I also don't see much media hype; in fact, the problem as I see it is the opposite--the public's not aware of what they're losing, and the Sonny Bono Act and DMCA were passed very quietly.

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

Edited by: darkmagicwillow at: 6/28/03 5:20 pm
darkmagicwillow
 


Re: The Public Domain Act

Postby Kieli » Sat Jun 28, 2003 7:14 pm

By media hype, I am referring to the relatively recent litigation against "file swappers" like Napster and the like as well as monopoly litigation against Microsoft, etc. I'm not entirely an amateur when it comes to copyright law and patent law. I've done my homework as well (and btw, I did not suggest for a moment that you were being reactionary. The comment was quite general.) and I think the criteria for copyright infringment could be considered very nebulous. It all depends on which side of the fence you're on, logically speaking.



I'm sorry but using someone's work without their express authorization or permission is "theft" no matter how many hairs you split. When you commit these actions, you are infringing upon said copyright and thus are committing theft. Any unauthorized acquisition of material or information that someone else created is still subject to legal action. When you take something that does not belong to you out of a person's home, office, desk, car, etc, is that not theft? When you steal someone's literary works, auditory works, ideas, etc, is that not still theft and thus subject to penalization to the fullest extent of the law under such sections of copyright law as Title 17? (www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap5.html, www.copyright.gov/title17/)



Quote:
it's clear that the infraction is something different for the obvious reason that the creator still has the "object" that was supposedly stolen.


Well that is debatable. When a student "steals" work that is not his/her own and then tries to pass it off as such, isn't that considered plagarism which is, in turn considered stealing (library.esuhsd.org/PLAGARISM.htm)? Whether or not you actually lose the object in question does not necessarily mean that the criteria for the definition of theft has not been met. While I do realise that not all unauthorized copying is considered copyright infringment, nevertheless it could still be considered stealing. I found a very interesting article by an attorney who tried to dispel the The Copyright Permission Myths. In no way does he state that copyright infringment is not stealing. Granted, this man is not the end-all/be-all legal authority. But it appears that he does not necessarily think that the matter is so cut and dried. Even Mark Radcliffe and Diane Brinson, in their book, The Multimedia Law and Business Handbook state:

Quote:
Anyone who violates any of the exclusive rights of a copyright owner is an infringer.



Example: Developer scanned Photographer's copyrighted photograph, altered the image by using digital editing software, and included the altered version of the photograph in a multimedia work that Developer sold to consumers. If Developer used Photographer's photograph without permission, Developer infringed Photographer's copyright by violating the reproduction right (scanning the photograph), the modification right (altering the photograph), and the distribution right (selling the altered photograph as part of the multimedia work).



A copyright owner can recover actual or, in some cases, statutory damages from an infringer. The federal district courts have the power to issue injunctions (orders) to prevent or restrain copyright infringement and to order the impoundment and destruction of infringing copies.




Thus, I don't think we'll ever really agree on this.



BTW: For those who wish to know, here is a DMCA "Safe Harbour" website to inform website owners about some changes.




Time flies by when the Devil drives.
It's not the pace of life that concerns me, it's the sudden stop at the end.

Kieli
 


Re: The Public Domain Act

Postby darkmagicwillow » Sat Jun 28, 2003 8:08 pm

When you take something that does not belong to you out of a person's home, office, desk, car, etc, is that not theft? When you steal someone's literary works, auditory works, ideas, etc, is that not still theft and thus subject to penalization to the fullest extent of the law under such sections of copyright law as Title 17?
When you take an object from someone, yes, it's theft, but when you copy someone's literary work, it's copyright infringement, as you noted explicitly above by citing a law about copyright, not theft. They're handled quite differently under the law, and this difference is both large and important. Deceptive misuse of the term theft for copyright infringement is cleverly exploited by those who want to eliminate fair use and the public domain, including libraries and the individual's ability to own and sell books and CDs that they've purchased, because who could object to an extension of a law to eliminate "theft?"



The legal definition of theft is ‘the dishonest appropriation of property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving that person of it’ which is clearly different from copyright violation as such infringement does not deprive the creator of their copyrighted creation. To return to your example of someone taking a physical object of mine, say my computer, I'd care about it because I didn't have a computer any longer. If they copied my computer so they had one too, I wouldn't care because I still had my computer so I suffer no deprivation. That's an essential difference between infringement of a monopoly like copyright and theft.



I should note that I have always produced copyrighted works both at work and on my own. I'm also a reader, a person who uses libraries, and I would like to believe that I own the books and CDs that I buy. I think I should be able to sell them and use them however I wish as long as I don't make money off of them or give copies to others, but that concept of ownership is of the past and I'd like to see it return.

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

Edited by: darkmagicwillow at: 6/28/03 7:15 pm
darkmagicwillow
 


Re: The Public Domain Act

Postby Kieli » Sat Jun 28, 2003 8:28 pm

Quote:
When you take an object from someone, yes, it's theft, but when you copy someone's literary work, it's copyright infringement, as you noted explicitly above by citing a law about copyright, not theft. They're handled quite differently under the law, and this difference is both large and important.


I think we're talking about semantics. No matter what word you use, it's still stealing. One is taking something from another without permission. The only differences are in the words used and the punishment given. That's like saying prosecuting for involuntary manslaughter is not the same as prosecuting for murder 1. No matter what the punishment one gets for those things or what words one uses, someone is still dead at the hands of another. Even when citing the law about copyright infringement they still emphasize the taking of something that does not belong to you, whether you physically lift someone's word from their works or if you just copy it without their permission.



Of course they're both handled differently under the law. ALL kinds of theft are handled differently under the law. But it's still theft, no matter which way you slice it; it's all a matter of degrees and situations.

Quote:
The legal definition of theft is ‘the dishonest appropriation of property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving that person of it’ which is clearly different from copyright violation as such infringement does not deprive the creator of their copyrighted creation.


That may or may not be true. If someone were to steal a copywritten original manuscript from someone and attempt to pass off portions of that work as their own, even though it's copyright infringement it's still theft. And do you not consider infringement as depriving the creator of the monies, notoriety, etc. that they rightfully deserve? If so, is that not STILL theft? How can you take something from someone, be it physically or by proxy and not still see that it's stealing?



Quote:
To return to your example of someone taking a physical object of mine, say my computer, I'd care about it because I didn't have a computer any longer. If they copied my computer so they had one too, I wouldn't care because I still had my computer so I suffer no deprivation.


Ahh but what if they had copied the contents of said computer without taking the computer itself. While you are not out of your computer and its contents physically, something was taken from you that belonged to you personally. Would you not still consider that to be theft?


Time flies by when the Devil drives.
It's not the pace of life that concerns me, it's the sudden stop at the end.

Kieli
 


Re: The Public Domain Act

Postby darkmagicwillow » Sat Jun 28, 2003 8:44 pm

I think we're talking about semantics. No matter what word you use, it's still stealing. One is taking something from another without permission.
No, it's not stealing; in fact, copyright infringement is not theft precisely because you're not taking anything from anyone. It's not just the punishment that's different (it's important to note that there was no punishment in the criminal sense until recent changes because copyright infringement was a civil matter, not a criminal one), but the reasons behind the laws that are different too.
How can you take something from someone, be it physically or by proxy and not still see that it's stealing?
That whole question is misconceived because you're not taking anything from anyone when you infringe on copyright.
Ahh but what if they had copied the contents of said computer without taking the computer itself. While you are not out of your computer and its contents physically, something was taken from you that belonged to you personally. Would you not still consider that to be theft?
No, that wouldn't be theft. It would be copyright infringement for works that have been published, and it would be a violation of my privacy for those that haven't been.



I'm not saying that copyright infringement isn't wrong; just that it's not the same as theft. This is an important distinction because if copying or transferring copyrighted works was theft, libraries, used-book stores, and many other entities protected by exceptions from copyright wouldn't exist.

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

Edited by: darkmagicwillow at: 6/28/03 7:46 pm
darkmagicwillow
 


Re: The Public Domain Act

Postby Kieli » Sat Jun 28, 2003 9:41 pm

When you infringe on someone's copywritten material you are indeed taking something from them. You are either taking their work, using their work or in some manner dealing with their work without their expressed permission. That is thievery.

Quote:
This is an important distinction because if copying or transferring copyrighted works was theft, libraries, used-book stores, and many other entities protected by exceptions from copyright wouldn't exist.


These entities are already given expressed permission by those who hold the copyright to distribute their material. Quite a big difference. Books are given to libraries, disseminated to bookstores for sale. The authors receive payment for that work or in any other manner have given their permission for libraries to carry their work. Big difference.



I cannot see where one can say that one is not stealing from another by infringing on their copyright when they have not given permission for that material to be used in any manner. That's still theft, no matter how you spin the words or deal in semantics. Simple case of stealing, whether voluntary or involuntary. We could argue this ad infinitum but until you can give me a hard and fast legal definition that specifically states that copyright infringement is NOT theft, my logical conclusion is that it is indeed theft. When you take something from someone, real or relatively insubstantial, it still never belonged to you in the first place. Thus, it is stolen.



I don't believe I have any misconceptions about this. I can see the parallels very clearly. We just differ, either ethically or prinicipally, on what constitutes theft. It is quite apparent that you don't believe that copyright infringement is theft. However, you cannot say for an absolute fact that it is not. The legal language is tenuous at best. Your idea of what constitutes theft totally has me at a loss. If someone had taken items from my computer, copied them without my knowledge or consent and then used them, I consider that theft. They stole files, items, what have you, that never belonged to them in the first place. The physical removal of something is not the only criteria that denotes theft. Any definition in a dictionary could tell you that.


Time flies by when the Devil drives.
It's not the pace of life that concerns me, it's the sudden stop at the end.

Kieli
 


Re: The Public Domain Act

Postby darkmagicwillow » Sat Jun 28, 2003 10:52 pm

You are either taking their work, using their work or in some manner dealing with their work without their expressed permission.
You still haven't explained what was taken. What has the creator lost? They still have the work in question so it's clearly not the work that's been lost.
a hard and fast legal definition that specifically states that copyright infringement is NOT theft
Laws about murder don't claim that murder is not theft, so therefore I should conclude murder is theft. That's clearly absurd, and so is your reasoning about copyright infringement, an area of law that's separated by a greater distance from any crime than criminal laws like those against murder and theft are separated from each other. The laws against murder don't specify that murder isn't theft, and the laws against copyright infringement don't specify everything that they aren't either.



Frankly, I don't know how much more clear it can be than the existence of two separate legal codes, one for copyright, and one for theft. Why do you think the Constitution specifically enumerates the idea of copyright protection among the powers of Congress when it was clear that Congress has the power to make laws against theft, murder, and other crimes? How can copyright infringement be theft if it has a limited duration, or do you think it would be okay for someone to take your car if you've had it for some specified period of time?
These entities are already given expressed permission by those who hold the copyright to distribute their material.
The holders of the copyright don't do give their expressed permission or there would be certain books libraries could lend and people could sell and others that they couldn't on a case by case basis according to the copyright holders as is done in the case of selling used software where it's legal for some programs and illegal for others. It's the copyright law that provides for these permissions for libraries and used books, and that's just one important difference between copyright infringement and theft. Note that authors receive no royalties for used book sales, contradicting your point about them receiving compensation.
When you take something from someone, real or relatively insubstantial, it still never belonged to you in the first place. Thus, it is stolen.
The problem is that you still haven't explained what has been lost to the copyright holder. If nothing was lost, I don't see how anything could've been stolen.

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

Edited by: darkmagicwillow at: 6/28/03 9:55 pm
darkmagicwillow
 


Re: The Public Domain Act

Postby Gatito Grande » Sat Jun 28, 2003 11:19 pm

I hesitate to step into this discussion---I have no legal knowledge on it whatsoever. It just seems to me, dmw, that what is stolen in copyright infringement is control: the ability to control verbal content beyond the mere possession of the content in some tangible form (which has been becoming progressively more plastic since Gutenburg).



The ideological impasses seems to be whether the creator should have control. It almost seems like you and Kieli are having a version of the debate around the Marxist slogan "property is theft." Along these lines, it is the copyright owner who is doing the stealing, not the "infringuer." I'm not saying I agree w/ this point of view, nor am I disagreeing w/ it. But that seems to be the crux of the debate. Is it right to "own"?



GG FWIW, I can see a greater claim by an author to their ideas, than I can, say, of a land-owner: they didn't create their land! (w/ the possible exception of the Dutch, of course :p ) Out



Hey, is it too early to start discussing (U.S.) Presidential politics? Anyone else participate in MoveOn.org's Democratic virtual-primary? FYI, Howard Dean received an overwhelming plurality w/ over 43% of the vote. :hmm

Gatito Grande
 


Re: The Public Domain Act

Postby darkmagicwillow » Sun Jun 29, 2003 12:13 am

I found the word I was looking for: rivalrous. Copyrighted works are non-rivalrous, tangible goods are rivalrous. Here's a simple explanation of the differences Matt Stoller wrote:
Real-world property is rivalrous. If I use your car other can't use it.



Intellectual property is non-rivalrous. If I listen to a song others can listen to it as well. My use of the song in no way damages the song for others.



The key to remember here is that my building of a car took materials that are rivalrous and cost money. My building of a song did not and took elements from the public domain (ie. the Rolling Stones drew heavily from blues). Therefore, that song is partially owned by the public domain, and partially owned by the author. The author should be able to profit from the song so that she will have incentives to produce new ones, but the public should be able to use the song to create other works of art. Allowing this is critical to a vibrant 'public domain'.
And here's a more formal source (The Economist in the article "Markets for Ideas," explaining the reasons for third world countries to accept or deny US copyright and patent legislation):
POPULAR discussion about intellectual-property rights is bedevilled by a recurring confusion. Few people any longer insist that “property is theft”, as Proudhon claimed. The centrality of property rights in a well-ordered market economy is so much taken for granted that the idea has seeped below the level of mainstream consciousness. So when owners of intellectual property say they are being robbed—as the record companies said they were, by Napster, or as big pharmaceutical companies say they are, by producers of cheap drugs in poor countries—one’s instinct is to see things their way. Property comes in many forms, one supposes, but whatever form it takes, stealing it must be wrong.



Not so fast. The urge to possess may be a basic human instinct, but the legal idea of property—and what, precisely, this complicated notion entails—is a human invention, developed down the years (and still being revised) to serve economic and social goals. The law on intellectual property, in particular, is everywhere both comparatively new and in flux. This is not a question of black and white, of right or wrong, as rich-country owners of intellectual property insist. It is a matter of striking a balance—and it is possible that owners are getting too much of a good deal.



The economics turns on the biggest single difference between intellectual property and tangible property. Tangible property is “rivalrous in consumption”—if Tom eats this sandwich, Dick cannot. However you assign the property right, only one sandwich, at most, is going to be eaten. Intellectual property, in contrast, is non-rivalrous. If Tom listens to this song, there is no reason why Dick, Harry and a million others should not listen to it as well—in effect at zero additional cost, given modern technologies of duplication and distribution. In this case, if assigning property rights excludes some would-be consumers, the result is waste. Wants go unsatisfied that could have been satisfied at no cost.

...

The economic case for their complying with this is mixed, at best; the moralistic argument that says “property is property, and that’s that” is simply false—witness the great variations even among rich countries in the form and extent of intellectual-property protection. Poor countries have every reason to question the terms of this particular trade-policy bargain.


To illustrate how different copyright infringement and theft are, here's an example from the article "The Copyright Cage" in Legal Affairs:
a couple of courts to outlaw the production by third parties of cassette programs designed to be inserted into the belly of Teddy Ruxpin talking stuffed animals. The idea was that by pushing "Play" when a non-Teddy Ruxpin story tape was inside the creature, children would be creating a derivative, contraband "audiovisual work comprising animated plush toy bear with unique voice." Since toddlers are largely unsusceptible to cease-and-desist letters, it fell to the cassette makers to stop abetting the kids' illegal behavior.
What do you think? Theft or not?

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

darkmagicwillow
 


Re: The Public Domain Act

Postby justin » Sun Jun 29, 2003 2:15 am

Quote:
That's not entirely true. I take it you're anti-corporate?




Well I'm not like crush all big corporations. I just really dislike them taking laws that are supposed to be there to protect individual rights and using them to gain a competetive advantage.



Quote:
I disagree with this. Especially if the inventor expressly wishes that his/her family receive compensation for the fruits of their labours. In fact, how fair would it be for you to create something, have the copyright statute of limitations run out, then have someone else buy your copyright then turn around and make the fortune that, honestly, should be yours? There should be a reasonable time statute for copyrights. Ten years just doesn't cut it IMHO.




How does one buy the copyright of something that's in the public domain? For one thing who would you buy it off? So I don't know if the scenario you mention is possible. If it is then it shouldn't be. Once something is in the public domain, it should remain there forever and a day.



Quote:
As far as museums go, since I work for a museum, there are rules that we must follow to keep from breaking any copyright or patent rules. This document gives some explanation of the rule we must follow. The Museum Registrar also has a series of documents that he/she must fill out in order to obtain permission to use or acquire certain works. I've got more details in my office. I'll post them on Monday.




But surely this would be easier if there was more stuff in the public domain, no.



Quote:
Laws about murder don't claim that murder is not theft, so therefore I should conclude murder is theft.




It was once claimed in British courts that murder was indeed a form of theft. That when you stole something you were taking their property and that when you killed them you were taking their life, so they were the same. It was then argued that since murder carried the death penalty, so should theft. Which is why for a long time theft was a capital crime in this country.



Quote:
The ideological impasses seems to be whether the creator should have control. It almost seems like you and Kieli are having a version of the debate around the Marxist slogan "property is theft." Along these lines, it is the copyright owner who is doing the stealing, not the "infringuer." I'm not saying I agree w/ this point of view, nor am I disagreeing w/ it. But that seems to be the crux of the debate. Is it right to "own"?




You took the words right out of my mouth. Since by owning something I am taking away from everyone else's right to use it property is a foom of theft. Which I guess means that intelectual property is intelectual theft.



Personaly I'm not saying that we should completely scrap copyright or patent laws. I do think that given how they are both being abused and the fact that they are so outmoded with regards to modern technology we need to go back to first principles and completely redraft them.



I understand, you should be with the person you l-love


I am


justin
 


Re: The Public Domain Act

Postby darkmagicwillow » Sun Jun 29, 2003 7:50 am

It was once claimed in British courts that murder was indeed a form of theft. That when you stole something you were taking their property and that when you killed them you were taking their life, so they were the same. It was then argued that since murder carried the death penalty, so should theft. Which is why for a long time theft was a capital crime in this country.
Good point. That's essentially the same argument that was used to make copyright infringement in the US a criminal offence a few years ago, putting said infringers in jail. The scary thing is that copyright and patent law have a greater impact that murder laws, giving corporations the power over the lives and deaths of billions of people.



Look at what Monsanto attempted to do in India by spreading their patented, licensed, and copy-protected (with a terminator gene rendering plants sterile) crops. Their justification for inserting the terminator gene: planting seeds from their crops was illegal under their licenses, and therefore theft. If people hadn't realized the potential disastrous consequences of these plants (including the possibility of bees cross-pollinating your neighbor's crops with the genes), Monsanto would've controlled the food source of a billion people in India and further billions across the third world. Public outcry made Monsanto back down and promise never to use terminator genes in a product they sell, but it's still well within their rights to do so.

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

Edited by: darkmagicwillow at: 6/29/03 6:52 am
darkmagicwillow
 


The Third Party: Publishers and Broadcasters

Postby darkmagicwillow » Mon Jun 30, 2003 7:33 am

While we've been talking about the balance between authors and readers, there is a third party in this equation: the middle-men, publishers and broadcasters of all types. This is the most important party, for these are the people who have hashed out the copyright laws since 1909 at the behest of our Congressional representatives, who feel that this is the fair way to balance all interests. There is no technological reason why satellite TV can't give you local stations, but there is a legal one since cable and over-the-air broadcasters had a seat at the table when this was negotiated while the satellite people weren't important enough to be invited then.



These middlemen are all in the game for profit, and they think that the way to more profit is through more control over copyrighted works. They want to use this control to achieve several major goals:


  1. Pay-per-view everywhere: They want readers and viewers to pay every time they see a movie or listen to a song at home. They want to make books digital, and they will once digital paper is cheap enough to replace regular paper (it's already good enough for most readers), so they can make books pay-per-view too. Among the consequences will be: no used book stores, and no libraries.

  2. Prevent authors from selling directly to their audience: If authors can sell directly, then the publishers lose their reason for existence, and in a day and age when a band like the Rolling Stones can use off-the-shelf software to produce their latest album and authors like Stephen King are experimenting with direct-to-reader sales, this is a real threat, and one that will grow stronger as technology improves. Authors in many areas, especially music, would like to sell directly to the audience, since so few of them make money through selling albums via their recording company. This was one of the major reasons for eliminating Napster.

  3. Eliminate the computer: Computers are general-purpose manipulators of bits, regardless of whether those bits contain copyrighted material or not. The middle-men fear computers not only because they allow people to copy materials, but also because they allow ordinary people to create their own entertainment instead of buying it from them. If you haven't yet, check out some of the short film sites on the net. While many of them are bad (as is the case with cinema films too), there are some excellent ones out there and as computers improve, they'll only get better. In other areas, think of what Microsoft thinks of people creating Linux and giving it away as an alternative to Windows. Of course, there will always be computational devices of some form, but they will be locked down like the XBox or Playstation, severely limited what you can do with them. Lock down chips have already been created for this purpose and they're in the process of finding the best way to get them to all consumers.



--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

darkmagicwillow
 


Re: The Third Party: Publishers and Broadcasters

Postby justin » Mon Jun 30, 2003 10:08 am

Quote:
Of course, there will always be computational devices of some form, but they will be locked down like the XBox or Playstation, severely limited what you can do with them.




Actually the X-box and PS2 aren't as limited as you might think since it is possible to install Linux on both those platforms, so they can in theory be used as general purpose computers.



I understand, you should be with the person you l-love


I am


justin
 


EU Politics

Postby 3peanuts » Wed Jul 02, 2003 2:21 pm

I don't know if this is the right thread to post this, but I simply have to express my feelings...:spin



I'm feeling so sad and humiliated by my Prime Minister's behaviour today in his intro-speech to the Italian Semester...

I almost cried when I saw that on TV. I feel so sorry: we are giving such a bad idea of Italian politics to our European partners! :(

I would really appreciate any comment by EU Kittens.



Thanks:flower

"Cunning linguist" GG

Keynes was right

3peanuts
 


Re: EU Politics

Postby Gatito Grande » Wed Jul 02, 2003 3:01 pm

I'm just a Yank, 3p, but believe me, I know only too well what it's like to be ashamed of your nation's leader. :spin You have my sympathies . . . :paranoid



GG Hey Americans! The next time terrorists attack us, we'll have to remember that Dubya told them (today) to "Bring it on!" Isn't it great to have a President who reduces foreign policy to the language of a cheerleading movie? :stink Out

Gatito Grande
 


Re: The Third Party: Publishers and Broadcasters

Postby maudmac » Wed Jul 02, 2003 4:45 pm

3peanuts, yes, this is definitely the right thread for this.



I don't know that much about Berlusconi (but I was amazed to see how much money he's worth :shock ), but, like GG, I can definitely sympathize with feeling ashamed of the words or actions of your nation's leader(s). No doubt about that. I want this shirt.


Pussy crack corn...and I don't care! -- Margaret Cho

maudmac
 


Re: The Public Domain Act

Postby Cipher » Wed Jul 02, 2003 6:04 pm

In some ways an act of copyright infringement is similar to an act of theft and in other ways it is different. The use of labels like "theft" and "stealing" for acts of copyright infringement is an attempt to capitalize on the connotations of and feelings regarding those crimes and apply them by default to a qualitatively different type of act without consideration or analysis of the fundamental differences. It's a form of circular reasoning which doesn't lead anywhere, thus the impasse in the discussion.



To consider the wrongness of copyright infringement we have to start at the beginning. I assert that the fundamental purpose to forming societies is to advance the common good through cooperation, division of labor (and thus specialization), and mutual respect. Society works by individual contributions to society earning a share of the benefits of society (ie. the contributions of others). But the purpose can break down when some individuals choose to take benefits without contribution (or through negative acts such as robbery, assault, and destruction of property). The taking of tangible goods (or the rivalrous place-holder, money) is a selfish act which works against the fundamental purpose of society; it's an attempt to benefit from the benefits of societal cooperation while choosing to instead follow jungle rules. And thus most societies forbid, guard against, and punish such acts.



That analysis is fairly obvious for tangible (or more generally "rivalrous"--thanks darkmagicwillow) resources. But what if what one contributes is not tangible nor a finite service (such as hair-cutting/styling, which can only be performed in a finite capacity) but something less tangible such as scientific discovery, technological advancement, or the cultural contrubution of various artistic expressions? How do you measure the "contribution" to society of an artist, or writer, or performer as opposed to that of a farmer, herder, rancher, butcher, breadmaker, barber, hair-stylist, factory-worker, engineer, inventor, and so on. You can't (even some of the later ones in that list can't really be measured though the resulting benefits of their contributions can usually be pointed to), because the contribution is more nebulous; but it's still a contribution and important to the general advancement of society. It has to be considered on more qualitative grounds, so let's try that.



What is the contribution of an inventor? If an inventor has an idea but does not share it, it does not help society in any way. If the idea is shared but not useful, the contribution is slim to none. If the idea is useful but not used (because society wasn't ready for it?) again the contribution is fairly slim, though it might become useful at a later time and contribute greatly. If the idea is helpful in improving people's lives or in making people's efforts more efficient (producing more for society from fewer resources and/or less effort) then the benefit to society can be huge. Of course, if the inventor were rewarded with the actual increase provided by their invention it would negate the benefits to society (if the invention cut your production costs in half but you had to pay that same amount for the use of the invention nothing changes externally except the inventor gets rich on a benefit that wasn't delivered--and perhaps your previous suppliers suffer a loss, depending on how production costs were saved). Rewarding inventors becomes very tricky. Of course they must be recognized as having contributed to society, but the more society is charged the less it can actually benefit from the invention. Reward inventors too little and they can't afford to invent, wasting their potential and costing society the advancements it might bring, but reward them too much and only the inventor benefits. Obviously a middle ground is ideal.

Quote:
From the US Constitution

To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries;


This is an attempt to balance the benefits to society against the needs of the individuals who create those benefits (eg. inventors) by creating a system where they can profit for a reasonable period of time after which their exclusive claim expires and the contribution falls fully into the public domain (thus the greatest contribution, though delayed). "For limited times" is a key part of this balance.



So having considered inventions from a high level, what about artistic creations? The benefits of artistic expressions are much harder to quantify (probably impossible) but in a qualitative sense--as with inventions--the contribution to society is greater the more the work is shared and enjoyed and lesser the more the work is restricted or ignored. Thus things seem more "right" the more a work can be shared an enjoyed while rewarding the artist (eg. writer) who created it. Without recognition and reward for the artist/writer they would not be able to afford to devote their energies to artistic creation and society would be deprived of their works. But without dissemination of the works and easy and affordable access, society is largely deprived of the works as well. To try to create a workable system (for written works) copyright law forbids copying without the permission of the copyright holder (ie. paying them) but allows such authorized copies to be shared such as loaning a book to a friend or making the book available to the public in a library. Restricting the publishing of a book to a contract with the author ensures that the books can be sold for more than the cost of printing them and thus can pay the author; if any printing company could print copies of the latest popular book, they could undercut the prices until the publisher buying the work from the author could not afford to pay for it (or pay very little) since competitors would not have to pay more than the price of one book (and production similar to printing from a manuscript). It seems likely the author and the first publisher could make very little profit from the enterprise, and the author probably couldn't make a living at it; thus, the copyright laws.



Unfortunately technology has evolved to a point which makes the traditional copyright model unstable. In electronic and especially digital form copying is so easy it requires essentially no resources to make and very little to transfer or distribute. Thus Napster is born. But unlike sharing a physical copy of a book or CD with a friend (perfectly legal), Napster "shared" by creating copies without any reason to deprive the "donor" of their copy, and without any system by which artists could be rewarded for their contribution. One person buys a CD and makes it available for electronic copying by everyone else on the Internet. The next CD someone else buys and makes available, so the cost to the individual in this cooperative network is very little while they all benefit with a great abundance of music to enjoy. Sometimes enjoying the music of an artist would encourage a person to buy their CD, perhaps one they would not have known about or considered had they not been introduced to it by the free sharing. Sometimes someone who wants the music on a CD instead downloads it for free and never buys the CD. The music industry likes to pretend the former doesn't happen and that the latter costs them money and that the responsibility for that loss is entirely on Napster (or systems that replaced it). But really they share in the responsibility as well.



CDs are priced about as high today as they were when they were just indroduced (adjusted for inflation, I believe). The increase in volume should have reduced production overhead, and yet the prices never came down. This is probably because the economics of supply and demand push it the other way when the supply has a monopoly on the product; the demand increased but there is no competition in the supply (only one publisher can provide that specific music because of exclusive contracts with the artist), so there was no reason for them to lower prices when they could instead just reap greater profit margins. Except eventually a lot of people got fed up with the absurdity of middle-men sucking up the majority of the profits by performing a function that technology makes increasingly unnecessary. So they countered with the other extreme, which ultimately doesn't work either. Currently a paid-subscription music-download service (which can pay fees to the copyright holders while still being cheap and efficient for users) seems to be getting established as a compromise.



Meanwhile, extending the term of copyright is an attempt to suck even more profits out of past works while the contribution of those works to society is lessened. The retroactive extension is particularly absurd since the creation of works decades ago can't possibly be promoted by the copyright term being extended beyond what it was at the time. The term was shorter and yet works were still created. The term could probably be a short as 10 years and works would still be created, though frankly that might be a bit short. The problem is, the whole approach to copyright is based on an obsolete technological landscape. The industry of course wants to extend their advantages under that model into the new realm, while blocking the advantages the technology should afford to users; but that is an attempt to extort greater reward for lessening contribution to society. Many users of course want to use the advantages of techology to get around the unfair behavior of certain monopolies but in doing so they disregard the purpose of rewarding creation to promote it in the first place. Neither extreme is tenable, and copyright really needs to be completely rethought given technological realities and its original social purpose.

Cipher
 


Re: EU Politics

Postby Diebrock » Thu Jul 03, 2003 5:05 am

Quote:
I'm feeling so sad and humiliated by my Prime Minister's behaviour today in his intro-speech to the Italian Semester...

I almost cried when I saw that on TV. I feel so sorry: we are giving such a bad idea of Italian politics to our European partners!


I think it is pretty telling that the only way he could react to the criticism by a German was to invoke Nazi images. But to be honest, it isn't as if such behaviour by Berlusconi comes as a total surprise. He has insulted countries/their representatives before. The fear/concern of what he would do in his EU presidency had been there all along. I think the only surprise was that he only needed that short a time to do it.

Berlusconi insult is latest in long line of gaffes



For all you ignorant;) non-EU kittens, here is what happened.

_________________

How can you kill people who killed people, to show that killing people is wrong?

I've kissed her best friend. I've reached into her best friend's pocket and fished around for keys. And I gave her best friend my number. I must be doing something totally, totally wrong... - TBSOL by Dreams

Diebrock
 


Re: EU Politics

Postby 3peanuts » Thu Jul 03, 2003 6:53 am

Thanks for the tips Diebrock: the Man always says that the news-papers that attack him are full of communist journalist.



Yeah, The Financial Times, for example, famous news-paper, notoriously communist.



Every time he opens his mouth I tremble: being a Law and Economics student I feel a knife inside my heart when he talks about justice or economy. Being an Italian makes me feel even angrier. And what about the trials, and the laws and our Welfare? :cry And now this tsunami of shit falling on our beloved country...:sob

He is the kind of person who makes you feel happy, just because you're not him.



Thanks for tolerating my rants:kitty



"Cunning linguist" GG

Keynes was right

3peanuts
 


Re: The Third Party: Publishers and Broadcasters

Postby Hemiola » Thu Jul 03, 2003 6:59 am

Please allow me, Cipher, to compliment you on your most excellent post concerning copyright protection:) .



As a published arranger/writer, I would say that you touched on all the important points, especially:



1) Kids today simply have no concept of what the term "intellectual property" means. For them, it is simply a matter of "Hey, I want my sounds, man. I ain't hurtin' nobody." But, of course, they **are** hurting people. It's too early to see the real damage yet, but I won't be surprised if composers/performers simply eschew the making of recordings in the future, since there would be no profit in making them.



2) You are absolutely correct about the needless extension of the term of copyright protection. The reforms of 1978 already guaranteed protection for the composer/author's lifetime. The **only** purpose of the 1998 extention was to protect corporate properties (e.g. the Disney Company was very upset that without this extension, Mickey Mouse would have gone into the public domain during this decade--ironic considering how much of Disney's great success is owed to works derived from the public domain!!!). The extension has already caused some rather bizarre situations: for example, the huge catalogue of the Gershwin estate is now controlled by some individual in the construction industry, who has **absolutely** no knowledge of music--something that I am certain neither George nor Ira would have been happy about:( .



To tell you the truth, I can only look with fear and trepidation at what the future may hold for music, art and literature:o.



Hemiola
 


Re: The Third Party: Publishers and Broadcasters

Postby darkmagickwillow » Thu Jul 03, 2003 8:43 am

Excellent essay, Cipher. Regarding technological changes, it's worthwhile to look at how government compromised between public and private interests as far back as radio and as recently as in cable TV (terrestrial broadcasters claimed cable stations were "stealing" by rebroadcasting), but the DMCA has given publishers and broadcasters the ability to write their own copyright law through digital copy protection and licensing (DRM, digital rights management, is the buzzword).



Hemiola, it's ironic that kids don't know about "intellectual property" since the term only came into general English usage with the 1980's. I'd prefer if they never learn the term because it's a politically motivated term, used to make one think of copyright infringement as theft. Perhaps we need a generic term for copyrights, patents, and trademarks, and perhaps we don't, but either way "intellectual property" is not it.



It is unsettling that we live in a time when people won't obey laws about copyright while at the same time corporations use their money to write our laws increasingly in their favor, turning civil law into criminal law so they can intimidate their customers into accepting their new regime. It feels much more like Hobbes' state of nature, with both sides fighting against each other with all that they have, than living in a state of law. I understand both sides though, with consumers not understanding how the law has changed in the last few years and the recording industry fighting for its existence when digital technology has made it as obsolete in the 21st century as buggy whips became with the automobile in the 20th.



In the end, where I hope we'll end up is with a broad spectrum of artists producing their own recordings and selling them directly to the consumer as the age of mass-marketing driven superstars created by the recording industry fades away. Without the recording industry and its promotions, the music industry won't be like winning the lottery with a few millionaires and many more paupers. It'll be closer to what the classical music business is even today.

Edited by: darkmagickwillow at: 7/3/03 11:43 am
darkmagickwillow
 


Re: The Third Party: Publishers and Broadcasters

Postby Cipher » Thu Jul 03, 2003 5:51 pm

Thanks. By the time I reached some sort of conclusion with it I ran out of time to go back and edit it, so I just hope it mostly makes sense.



One of the problems with the way the music industry works is that it tries to mold artists into cookie-cutter styles to try to appeal to what currently has the biggest audience instead of promoting their individual diversity. This way they maximize their profits (and make rich stars out of a few artists), but they work against the creative diversity which would be of more value to society.



I don't have the reference handy, but there was an essay I once read online about an alternative way of paying musicians through some sort of "tax" (a surcharge on DAT tapes was the example, though with MP3s and such these days it probably wouldn't work as a media surcharge) and voluntary voting by music listeners. The idea was you had to pay for the blank media you record on (or perhaps a recurring membership charge in a download service), but you could then use it to record whatever you want. Then you vote (in proportion to what you're paying?) on the artists you want to support. But the money didn't just go based on proportional votes; the payout leveled off such as logarithmically, with the smaller-audience artists getting subsidized for greater diversity. The idea was that more artists could make a living at it, even though they wouldn't get rich off the system. Then of course there'd still be concert performances and so on. The voting is voluntary because they figure people will want their favorite artists to get funding, and you're out the money even if you don't vote, so you might as well.



Such a system still has some issues to work out, such as the problem of plagiarism and other forms of cheating to manipulate the system (artists releasing stuff under multiple names to try to collect multiple times, though if payout is mostly proportional at the low end such cheating probably wouldn't succeed). It also was conceived primarily around music and would not necessarily adapt to other areas such as books (once they become digitally copyable) and movies (which are rather expensive to make even beyond the creative energies).



Cipher
 


International Criminal Court

Postby Diebrock » Sat Jul 05, 2003 9:18 am

All men may be created equal nowadays, but when it comes right down to it, it is still the one who is strongest that is more equal than all others. :

Quote:
An all-American pout

by Paul Harris



The United States has long resisted the notion that anyone would ever have the right to hold Americans accountable. Washington has bristled at criticism over the detention of Afghans at Guantanamo and has been quite contemptuous of those who rebuke them for what is allegedly inhumane treatment of these prisoners. Even more, they show nothing but disdain for critics who point out this detention exercise is treatment the U.S. would not accept if done to American citizens by some other nation.



The American administration --- and not only the current administration ---has long criticized other countries, particularly Europeans, over the issue of agricultural subsidies while blithely ignoring the massive subsidy system on which American agriculture is built. They genuinely believe that terrorist activities are abhorrent while at the same time holding a long track record of terrorism committed by the United States against other nations; American atrocities are in the best interest of the U.S. and certainly couldn’t be considered the same thing as terrorism.



But effective July 1, 2003, the U.S. made good on a threat to take its ball and go home. The American Service Members Protection Act of 2002 threatened to withdraw any military assistance from countries who thought it was fair that all nations should be playing by the same rules.



To quote Human Rights Watch (an American based agency): "At the end of the bloodiest century in human history, the international community adopted a treaty creating the world's first independent and permanent International Criminal Court. That court is now a reality. The International Criminal Court (ICC) is able to investigate and prosecute those individuals accused of crimes against humanity, genocide, and crimes of war. The ICC complements existing national judicial systems and will step in only if national courts are unwilling or unable to investigate or prosecute such crimes. The ICC will also help defend the rights of those, such as women and children, who have often had little recourse to justice."



The United States has lobbied hard for all signatories to the ICC charter to exempt Americans from any possible prosecution. The United States itself is not a signatory to this charter and does not believe that any law, other than its own, should apply to it. In effect, the United States does not believe that anyone else has the right to judge the actions of the U.S. or its citizens although the U.S. certainly expects everyone else to march to its drumbeat. The U.S. further has no problem with the idea that other countries and their citizens can be prosecuted by the ICC, just not good ole’ Americans.



The United States issued a demand to all nations who supported the establishment of the ICC, that they must sign agreements to exempt the U.S. and its citizens from any ICC actions or face a suspension of any military aid. But in a callous display of selective thinking, certain nations get to be exempt from this proscription. All the members of NATO are exempt. However, six countries seeking admission to NATO were not exempted and now find themselves among the countries which have been blacklisted against military assistance from the United States, presumably regardless of the reasons that such aid might be needed. Other nations could apply for a waiver of this demand from the U.S., and some did apply. President Bush has to date issued 22 waivers.



Recapping then, the United States demands that it be exempt from any actions by the ICC and that all nations sign documents agreeing to that exemption or face withdrawal of military assistance, unless they apply for a waiver from the U.S., whereby they would be allowed to support the ICC and still get military aid. So, the ICC is a bad thing and supporting it is a bad thing for which the U.S. will inflict punishment, unless there are some other political or economic or strategic reasons to exempt you in which case you can support the bad ICC and all will be forgiven. In all, 22 countries received presidential waivers, the members of NATO automatically got waivers, and 50 other countries have now been blacklisted.



The United States' actions smack of ancient Rome where Romans traveling outside the city could excuse any horrid activity simply by speaking the magical phrase: "civis Romanus sum" [I am a Roman citizen]. That entitled you to a "Get Out of Jail Free" card and you got a pat on the back and were sent on your merry way. And we all know what happened to Rome.



found here




_________________

How can you kill people who killed people, to show that killing people is wrong?

I've kissed her best friend. I've reached into her best friend's pocket and fished around for keys. And I gave her best friend my number. I must be doing something totally, totally wrong... - TBSOL by Dreams

Diebrock
 


Re: Crisis in Liberia

Postby 4WiccanLuv » Sat Jul 05, 2003 12:10 pm

Quote:
Iraq policy critics now want U.S. in Liberia



The Bush administration remained noncommittal yesterday on whether it would send U.S. troops to quell the civil war in Liberia, where President Charles Taylor was defying a U.S. demand to step down.

President Bush "is determined to help the people of Liberia find a path to peace," White House Press Secretary Ari Fleischer said after the National Security Council discussed the Liberian crisis.

Reflecting what one senior State Department official called intensive internal discussions, Mr. Fleischer told reporters that "the exact steps that could be taken are still under review." He said a U.S. military role is still under consideration.

Some of the harshest critics of the U.S.-led war in Iraq are all but begging a reluctant Bush administration to lead a peacekeeping mission in Liberia. Within the U.S. government, the Pentagon has been hot on Iraq but cool on Liberia, while the State Department has taken the opposite tack.

With a bloody civil war flaring up again in a country founded by freed American slaves more than 180 years ago, "this has been a doubled-edged debate about American power for everyone involved," said Robert Jervis, a professor of international politics at Columbia University.

"All those people who were ambivalent about American power now think it's great so long as it is being used for their purposes," he said.

Many of those most opposed to the U.S.-led effort in Iraq now argue that American participation is vital to the success of a proposed 5,000-strong multinational peacekeeping mission to enforce a cease-fire. Among them are U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan, leading European powers — including France — and the editorial page of the New York Times.

"There are lot of expectations that the United States may be prepared to lead this force," Mr. Annan said during a visit to Switzerland yesterday. "Several countries, members of the U.N., have appealed for that. The Liberian populations are also asking for that."

The pressure from the international community comes as Mr. Bush prepares for a critical trip to Africa and puts to test one of the key issues of his 2000 presidential campaign.

"There may be some moments when we use our troops as peacekeepers, but not often," Mr. Bush said during that campaign.

"It must be in our vital interest whether we ever send troops," Mr. Bush said then. "The mission must be clear. Soldiers must understand why are we going. The force must be strong enough so that the mission can be accomplished. And the exit strategy needs to be well-defined."

A senior administration official told the Associated Press that the current thinking within the administration is in line with those statements.

The official said Mr. Bush is reluctant to send troops purely as peacekeepers. However, another official told the Associated Press that the White House did not want to take the military option off the table for fear of making headlines just before Mr. Bush's Africa trip.

Few African nations supported the war against Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein, but several West African nations said they were prepared to contribute some 3,600 troops to an American-led force to restore order in Liberia.

But "being the world's only superpower means having the luxury of saying 'no' when the rest of the world wants you to say 'yes,' " said Ted Galen Carpenter, vice president for foreign policy and defense studies at the libertarian Cato Institute.

"For some, especially the European countries, it's fine for the United States to be the world's policeman so long as we only patrol in places where we have no strategic interest," he said. "It is as if our interventions are only legitimate so long as they do nothing to advance American foreign policy goals or increase our own security."

The New York Times, which ardently opposed Mr. Bush's Iraq policy, said in an editorial yesterday that "the United States cannot send troops to pacify every international conflict or relieve every humanitarian emergency."

But the paper added that Mr. Annan "makes a compelling case for dispatching an American-led international force to Liberia" and said the rationale is both "humanitarian and geopolitical."

The current round of fighting in Liberia began three years ago as rebels began trying to oust Mr. Taylor, who won contested elections and took the presidency in 1997 after a 1989-96 civil war.

Fighting killed hundreds of trapped civilians in the capital, Monrovia, last month, and the war had displaced more than 1 million Liberians.

Mr. Fleischer yesterday said the administration has seen encouraging signs of calm.

"The situation in Liberia has been eased, and there's quiet and calm on the streets of Monrovia recently as a result of the international community coming together to work toward the cease-fire," he said.

Advocates of a U.S. role in Liberia say further bloodshed and political uncertainty there could spill into other West African countries, create a refugee and humanitarian crisis and sour the U.S. image on the continent just as Mr. Bush prepares to leave Monday on his first presidential trip to sub-Saharan Africa.

They also note that Liberia, with its long and complex cultural and political links to Washington, presents a special case of U.S. action.

France took the lead in attempting to stem fighting in northern Congo and in Ivory Coast, both former colonies, while Britain headed a deployment to its former colony of Sierra Leone.

"There's almost this strange hangover from the colonial days, with each former Western power picking up his share of the white man's burden," said Columbia's Mr. Jervis.

With its unparalleled political, technological and military clout, the United States often stands accused of deciding faraway disputes simply by choosing whether to participate or not.

Middle East analysts say the Israeli-Palestinian "road map" to peace has no chance of success if Washington is not there to ensure that both sides comply. Pakistan has long sought to drag reluctant American administrations into its dispute with India over the Kashmir province. U.S. troops and diplomatic muscle proved critical in a series of Balkans disputes of the mid-1990s, after European efforts foundered.

Even when Spain and Morocco nearly came to blows over the uninhabited Parsley Islands in the Mediterranean last summer, it was Secretary of State Colin L. Powell who was forced to mediate.




This was found here

_____________


"Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, to assure the survival and success of liberty." - John F. JFK

4WiccanLuv
 

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