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Reading and Writing Fan Fiction: Questions

The place for kittens to discuss GLBT (gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgendered) issues as well as topics that don't fit in the other forums. (Some topics are off-topic in every forum on the board. Please read the FAQs.)

Re: Betas

Postby Tulipp » Mon Aug 05, 2002 9:26 am

Mariacomet and Sheridan, good thoughts about betas. I too find that I ask some specific questions of my beta readers (I have one official and one un-official), and one of them tends to see inconsistencies, gaps in logic, things that don't match up, things that seem not to work, whereas the other tends to help me more with the emotional side of things: when does a character seem in character? when does a particular action not ring true? And specifically, with my specific beta, when is there not enough Tara?



This makes me think of another question or set of questions?



For you writers, how attuned are you to the amount and kind of feedback you get in your thread?



Do you notice if you get less or more for a particular chapter?



How do you respond to a change in the tone of responses from one chapter to the next?



If you get less, do you assume that something went wrong?



How much does your impression of the feedback you get affect how you write future parts?



Edited by: Tulipp at: 8/5/02 12:11:39 pm
Tulipp
 


Re: Betas

Postby Sheridan » Mon Aug 05, 2002 12:37 pm

Well I suppose to take a practical example I introduced the character 'LJ' in one of my stories. Now if the reaction to her had been poor I would simply have written her out of the future arc, and I even explained her full back story to my beta reader to get their reaction. On the other hand I write a complete story and then put it up, so feedback won't affect a particular story, but of course the number of people who read it and their response may feed into the next story, especially as I'm writing a series.One thing that that has struck me after putting up a few stories si that you seem to get more responses, not more readers just more responses, if you have a sex scene, but I can't think why. :)

Willow: ...I have to tell you....

Tara: No, I understand you have to be with the
person you l-love

Willow: I am

Sheridan
 


Re: Betas

Postby mariacomet » Mon Aug 05, 2002 1:48 pm

For you writers, how attuned are you to the amount and kind of feedback you get in your thread?



Well, I have to be honest, I am ultra conscience of this. But I am TRYING to be less conscience. Maybe it's ego, but I DO want to know that people are reading and what they think. More than that, I want to know that people are feeling involved with what I write. But I can see part of that from how many hits my thread is getting. Which I think at least helps me know if I am holding the attention of the readers. I think it depends on why you write. I, personally, write for two reasons. One is for me...and the other is to communicate - i.e. for the audience.



Some people write strictly for themselves and that's great. But my goal is two fold. And I do care if people are involved in the story. And I care how they feel at the end of the story. I don't want them to walk away feeling like things are 'less.' That they have wasted their time, or that their sense of what is 'good' - life/love/hope - is less.



I don't believe in writing strictly FOR feedback. Nor do I alter what I write based on whether I think it will get more or less feedback.



I want people willingly, happily (or at least MOSTLY happily) along with me for the ride. And then when the ride ends, I want them to say...'you know, I'll remember that. Or...that was fun. Or...I'm sad the ride is over." I DON'T want to drag people with me kicking and screaming. And I don't want to feel that I am PUSHING people, because I am oh so much smarter then they. Because, ya know...I'm not.



Wow....way off topic now. Steering back on course.



What happens with me is when I post a part and it gets little reaction, I wonder if...,well...what i posted sucked. But ONE post and the reactions to it, should not make or break the feelings you have about your own story. I try and look at 1. the reactions overall 2. The type of reactions I am getting.

"More, please" is always a good sign. As are more detailed comments on your work.



I think what you have to careful of is judging if a post is good or bad STRICTLY based on how many comments you get. This last point is something I struggle with. But at a certain point, you do have to trust your gut feelings as a writer.

I'm not suggesting that's infallible. And double checking with your audience and Betas is always a useful thing.



Do you notice if you get less or more for a particular chapter?



I notice. But...I recognize that some parts that is bound to happen with. like...my parts without Willow or Tara (or even both sometimes) are - for the most part - going to get less feedback.



Parts with Willow and Tara smootching, etc...so far have proved to yield the most feedback.



I just try and tell the story in a way that keeps everyone involved. Sometimes that means no WillowTarasmootches and I hope that the readers will be patient with me till i can get back to those. But I understand if they feel less inspired to comment.



I have to say without sounding like a total suckup that so far my experience with the kitten readers has been great. People are usually willing to stick with you and give you room to be creative and tell your story. I am truly grateful for that. I believe it means I have earned thier trust as a storyteller.



How do you respond to a change in the tone of responses from one chapter to the next?



Hmm...not exactly sure what you mean by that question but I'll hazard a guess.



Some story parts I write....are dark. And people hurt when the girls hurt. This is a GOOD thing. It means they are on the trip with me. I try and warn the kittens when the ride is about to get rough. AND...I try to reassure them that there will be calmer seas ahead.



If you get less, do you assume that something went wrong?



If this happens over three or so posts...then I can get a little paranoid. but that's another reason why my beta readers are so wonderful. When I'm not sure about my own instincts, I go to them.



How much does your impression of the feedback you get affect how you write future parts?



This season on Buffy has been...hard. On everyone. The feedback - on a lot of days - has kept me going. Someone told me once that feedback is a 'writerfix.' It's muse food. I have never gotten good feedback and felt LESS inspired to write.



As for the days when the feedback isn't quite what I wanted it to be...it can be frustrating...it can make me wonder if I am doing something wrong. BUT...it's not WHY I write. It never has been. I try and remember my goals and I try and keep my eyes on the big picture. Also, I try and STOP sometimes...and look at the response I have gotten so far throughout ALL of the story. STOP and be grateful. And then tell myself to chill and just keep at it.





MC





mariacomet
 


Re: Feedback

Postby Bagheera » Mon Aug 05, 2002 6:12 pm

For you writers, how attuned are you to the amount and kind of feedback you get in your thread?

Mine doesn't seem to vary very much. Once the story line got established, a solid core of readers formed that appear to give feedback to every update, which is nice, but I wonder how much stamina they will have, because my story will end up consisting of 61 parts!



Do you notice if you get less or more for a particular chapter?

Occasionally. When it's less it's usually an update that I knew was s***-boring anyway, but I wanted it in there for structural reasons. I'll be more concerned if some upcoming zinger updates get ignored, but I'm sort of quietly confident right now.



How do you respond to a change in the tone of responses from one chapter to the next?

Not a problem. My story is a deliberate roller coaster, it varies from update to update. If the tone of feedback didn't vary, it would mean people weren't actually taking it in. When the feedback is appropriate, like if they say "oh that was funny" or "this is enjoyable in a hurts so good kind of way" (for the angst sections), it means that I'm getting it right.



If you get less, do you assume that something went wrong?

A few items of good quality feedback are all I need. The number of replies to any given update is not critical.



How much does your impression of the feedback you get affect how you write future parts?

Sometimes it can be quite profound, as I think I said earlier, if someone offers an insight or a speculation that I genuinely had not thought of, that little light bulb can go click! Those moments are fantastic. Likewise, negative feedback - I had one fic part that was outside FAQ guidelines - only just - it was important because I was trying to plant the seeds of stuff that was going to happen further down the track in the story, so I couldn't completely delete the offending section. The reworking was a challenge, and it also made me think very hard about how to go about writing future sections that dealt with the same subject. In the end, it improved the story - well, I think it did. Having the limits of the FAQ is actually a very good way of introducing discipline into the writing, I've found.



Willow looks hopeful, then delighted as the words sink in. Tara meets her halfway and they kiss passionately.

"Entropy"

Bagheera
 


Re: Feedback

Postby MadeinNZ » Mon Aug 05, 2002 6:15 pm

OK - so I have a question from a non-writer-but-happy-to-read perspective. Sometimes I get worried that I am repeating my feedback too much when a fic has a number of episodes. I want to say "great update" but then realise that I've said that for the last 3 times. Would you rather I kept saying the same thing or wait until I have something specific to comment on? Does "great update" mean anything for a fourth time?

------------------------------


"When someone falls for Willow, they stay fallen" - Normal Again

Edited by: MadeinNZ at: 8/5/02 5:16:28 pm
MadeinNZ
 


Re: Feedback

Postby Bagheera » Mon Aug 05, 2002 6:20 pm

Dear MadeinNZ:



That sort of thing never bothers me, I will always thank a reader that offers that feedback, no matter how often it's said.



PS: Sorry about the Bledisloe (actually, I'm not :evil )

Willow looks hopeful, then delighted as the words sink in. Tara meets her halfway and they kiss passionately.

"Entropy"

Bagheera
 


Re: Feedback

Postby Sheridan » Mon Aug 05, 2002 6:38 pm

MadeinNZ i't perfectly fine to just say 'good update', if that's what you think, if someone reads my stories but doesn't comment that could be seen as being indifferent. Trust me praise can never be repeated too often. :)

Willow: ...I have to tell you....

Tara: No, I understand you have to be with the
person you l-love

Willow: I am

Sheridan
 


Re: Feedback

Postby Tulipp » Mon Aug 05, 2002 6:41 pm

I am trying hard to keep more quiet in this thread in the interests of "research," but it's difficult. I appreciate what I'm reading about the relationship of feedback to writing so much.



As for your question, MadeinNZ, I hope this is one that other people will answer, as well, like Bagheera did. As I read all over the Pens board, I see different categories of response:

--satisfaction/encouragement (i.e. "great update")

--analysis/interpretation (VampNo12's specialty)

--anxiety/sympathy ("cliffhanger!", "poor Willow," etc.)

--questions (why did X do that?)

--zoom lens (I liked this particular sentence, or I liked that image)



That's just what I'm coming up with off the top of my head; I know there are many, many more. I like any feedback, but I particularly like the zoom lens, since it shows me something specific. I'm doing that worked.



What am I missing?

Tulipp
 


Re: Feedback

Postby Bagheera » Mon Aug 05, 2002 6:44 pm

You missed response category 6: Smutty banter, jokes and propositions (usually taking place in tommo's fics, and constituting about 50% of the postings on the thread) ;)

Willow looks hopeful, then delighted as the words sink in. Tara meets her halfway and they kiss passionately.

"Entropy"

Bagheera
 


Re: Feedback

Postby MadeinNZ » Mon Aug 05, 2002 6:47 pm

Quote:
PS: Sorry about the Bledisloe
You just had to say it didn't you. That's right - take a nations grief and make fun of it. No more "great updates" for you matey.

------------------------------


"When someone falls for Willow, they stay fallen" - Normal Again

MadeinNZ
 


Re: Feedback

Postby Bagheera » Mon Aug 05, 2002 7:01 pm

Quote:
No more "great updates" for you matey.




:miff Well, you've never said that to me anyway, so I guess I'll just go away and cry me a river.



And I wasn't going to mention cleaning the Silver Ferns' clocks in Manchester (see how sensitive I am), but if that's your 'tude, dude, so there!

Willow looks hopeful, then delighted as the words sink in. Tara meets her halfway and they kiss passionately.

"Entropy"

Bagheera
 


Re: Feedback

Postby VampNo12 » Mon Aug 05, 2002 8:04 pm

I will elaborate on the types of feedback question. Yes, it's true I tend to be on the analysis/interpretation side when it comes to feedback (I can't help it I seemed geared this way no matter if I am reading for pleasure or work). However, sometimes I think I go to far, seeing things that the writer of a particular story never intended to imply (ie there are positives, as well as negatives to my type of feedback). I don't want my feedback to force/steer a story another direction, if the writer never intended what I interpreted to be seen.



I do find myself more comfortable giving feedback about a particular story arc/plot rather than using Tulipp "zoom lens" approach. I will sometimes comment on how a particular sentence is written to convey an image that I think is important to the plot, but I usually stay away from commenting on the story's structure/how the fic is written. As to saying "great job" or waiting to say something more constructive, personally I think "great job" is perfect for conveying a reader still likes the fic, and can't wait for the next part. Personally, regardless of feedback being in-depth analysis or short with "Great job", both conveys to the writer that the story is being well-received/wanting the fic to continue, and I think that is the most important aspect of the feedback (ie that a particular story being posted is being read, and that the fic has captured the positive attention of it's readers).



Also I don't want my silence on a particular story or update to imply I didn't like it. Yes, I avoid negative criticism by staying silent, but at the same time I do enjoy stories that I don't give feedback to. I only have a limited amount of time per day to read/comment on fic, and with the type of feedback I give, I sometimes have to limit it to certain stories. So what I am basically saying if I don't reply it doesn't mean the story or update hasn't captured me positively, but rather I just can't reply to every story that is on the pen's board.





Edited by: VampNo12  at: 8/5/02 7:23:13 pm
VampNo12
 


Re: Feedback

Postby MadeinNZ » Mon Aug 05, 2002 8:18 pm

Quote:
And I wasn't going to mention cleaning the Silver Ferns' clocks in Manchester (see how sensitive I am), but if that's your 'tude, dude, so there!
OK - that's a fair cop. And I can't believe I haven't given you a "great update" yet. I hang my head in shame.

------------------------------


"When someone falls for Willow, they stay fallen" - Normal Again

MadeinNZ
 


How do you write?

Postby darkmagicwillow » Wed Aug 07, 2002 11:37 am

We were discussing how we write for a little while on Tulipp's "Terra Firma" thread on Pens. I was wondering if we could get a more general response here. Here's my description of how I write:



I write more like a painter. I get an idea then I walk around working it different ways in my head until I have a clear picture of the central events and people. I always think best when I'm moving. Then I sketch in a skeletal version of the work with just the major actions and dialog, then adding descriptive details, less important conversation, and occassionally painting over a previous version of an interaction with a new, better one.





The walking around part is very important for me though I also sometimes do a lot of creating while I'm driving on the highway. Is this just a weird thing I do or do other writers find that movement helps?



How about music? I know that many writers find that music helps them write. Sometimes it helps me too, but other times I can't concentrate unless it's completely quiet.



Where do you get your story ideas from? Are they unexplored areas of the TV show? Are any of them story ideas you've had in the past then realized how well they'd work as a W/T story?



--
"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit. "   "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

darkmagicwillow
 


Re: How do you write?

Postby Sheridan » Wed Aug 07, 2002 1:25 pm

Is this just a weird thing I do or do other writers find that movement helps?



Not just you, I often find I get ideas when I'm walking, or figure out how a particualr scene should go.



How about music?



Find it helps with generating ideas more than the process of writing.



Where do you get your story ideas from? Are they unexplored areas of the TV show? Are any of them story ideas you've had in the past then realized how well they'd work as a W/T story?



Some of them come from those last two sources, some of them, well goodness knows, they just pop up from some dark space without any warning.

Willow: ...I have to tell you....

Tara: No, I understand you have to be with the
person you l-love

Willow: I am

Sheridan
 


Re: How do you write?

Postby Tulipp » Wed Aug 07, 2002 1:36 pm

You know, I need a lot of movement, as well. I often get the sentences or images that feel the most important to me while on the bus, or walking home, or driving. Then I have to make sure that I always have some paper, and that I am able to find that paper later when I'm at my computer.



But I think that moving the setting also works for me--writing downstairs insted of upstairs, or outside, or at a place I don't know so that I see things (like water, for example). Just a way to get new ideas in my head, I guess.



As for music, I do like to have something on while I'm writing, but it has to be the same thing for awhile, either the same song over and over or the same cd. And it has to be something familiar enough to me that I don't really have to listen to it; this way, it gives me atmosphere without requiring my attention. I've written my last two chapters of TF, for example, to three or so songs from the BTVS soundtrack; one was that K's choice song from "The Wish." Not very original, maybe, but a mood.



Finally, darkmagicwillow and I talked about this in the TF thread, but I do tend to start with more and hack it down to less.

"Something's bound to begin.
It's going to happen, happen sometime,
Maybe this time...."
--Kander and Ebb, "Cabaret"

Tulipp
 


Re: How do you write? & Feedback

Postby Katharyn » Wed Aug 07, 2002 2:02 pm

OK, the back button and preview delete everything I type so I am just remembering the questions....



Bothered about how much feedback etc?



I am a feeback whore. I have said it many times. It is till true.



Any sort of feedback of the categories listed is deeply appreciated and the "I was lurking but I had to..." posts are great. That shows that I am getting to people I did not know about... Not an ego thing - just nice to know.



Response vary by content to some extent, but it is tough to predict. Yes smut and smoochies work - as do shock - but other parts get massive feedback when I think they are "average" and "good" parts get less.... Just goes to show I am too close to judge.



Feedback can alter fic with me... not the main story but suggestions or questions can cause me to work in the answer... often as I forgot about it originally and want to appear cleverer than I am.



The biggest feedback that alters fic for me though is private. Certain people have particpated in that - not beta - and as a result my present fic has been significantly expanded as a result. They were right. I was wrong. Its important to listen.



That is all I can remember for Feedback...



Now to the "How do you write":



I make notes in a rush... then I make notes as thing come to me. Then I type them up and add to them then... that becomes the basis of a part. Usually built around certain events or lines that I love... Then it is a logical regression or progression from/to that. Also go walking where I can talk to myself and speak the lines.



Oh and for snuggly chats... hugging a pillow... in bed when alone. Is that weird? Oh yeah...



Music? Very important. The right music for the mood. Angsty music... rock music... quiet music. Certain things I can write to. Others I cannot. Often use the 'Gladiator' Soundtrack now as a writing one. Not for mood, but I tend to type better when something powerful is on.



Also lyrics help me find feelings.



Story ideas? Well there have been 3 that have been written. 1 dumped and 1 in pre-production.



Of those 1 written and 1 dumped were just missing scene fics... no big secret there I love to fill in the gaps and keep it W/T focused. 1 was a Xmas fic... so we looked (co-written) for Xmas fun in Sunnydale. Again easy to see why. As for my current fic... do you know I have no idea how that came to me? It is based in the wish universe... but that was not the start of it. The start I think was more a look at a different Tara... I selected the Wish Universe after that... It was along time ago. I think the original idea was over 15 months ago and writing started about 11 months ago.... so you will excuse me if I have forgotten!



Katharyn

---------------



Katharyn
 


Re: Betas

Postby tommo » Wed Aug 07, 2002 6:22 pm

How attuned are you to the amount and kind of feedback you get in your thread?



Ah feedback. Heh. Gotta love it. I have to say, I'm always fascinated by the amount of feedback some of my stories get over others. I'm sure that's to do with general content though, and probably word of mouth. I've been recommended fics to read and I'm sure it works both ways. I'm conscious of feedback and I really like reading it, just to hear people's general take on what I write. Sometimes they'll point out something you included that's pivotal in characterisation or plotline, and it will have entirely slipped me by as a writer. Shows how focused I am, eh? Heh.



I generally try not to take feedback too seriously though. I think with fanfic, especially on a forum like this, it's easy to get tied into writing for the positive reactions, rather than telling the story and allowing people to be less enthusiastic about what you do. But that again, is the danger that writer's face, especially with a hot topic like Willow and Tara are right now.



Do you notice if you get less or more for a particular chapter?



Hmm, let's see. Jam tarts vs angsty relationships. Guess which one wins out? I tend to get more responses for the more sexual chapters that I write, I think. Not that that's a complaint, but I think they're easier to read. Also, the chapters where something momentous happens tend to glean more reactions than the ones that move the plot from one point to another; those descriptive things. Heh. Someone once gave me feedback telling me that they liked my stories although "they're a bit too descriptive".



How do you respond to a change in the tone of responses from one chapter to the next?



It depends on what you expect, I think. Usually I have a pretty good idea of what kind of responses I'm likely to get depending on what's happening in the story. It's the peaks and troughs that people comment most on. Monotony doesn't usually rate very highly on the feedback scale. So if there's a definitive change of tone, I try to look at what's caused it. If it's something I intended to do, then naturally I congratulate myself, heh. If not, then I go back to bed for a few days and worry about how to get myself out of the hole I've dug.



But a change of tone can be really useful if you're uncertain about direction. Often, it's the type of response I've had in feedback that helps me decide where to take a particular story; whether to throw away one plotline and follow another. And that in itself is the ideal purpose of good feedback, which you generally find on Pens. There's a group of people whose feedback I read very carefully, because you know that they are giving you something that's well thought out and expressed. And often, that can make all the difference.



However, changes of tone can help to consolidate characterisation. I notice someone mentioned about originals. My original character was put into Touchstone to cause tension, and when feedback indicated that that was happening with the reader's perception of her, it was quite pleasing. Some good discussions were had about an original, never mind Willow and Tara. So that in itself was very affirming in the way that feedback works.



If you get less, do you assume that something went wrong?

Well, less feedback generally indicates that people don't have anything to say about what you've written. Which could be for a multitude of reasons. But the general assumption is that yeah, I made a mistake and nobody wants to tell me. I think again, that's why I look for certain people and what they say because they will be able to point out deficiencies without being offensive, which helps the writer's ego, heh.



How much does your impression of the feedback you get affect how you write future parts?



Like I said before, it can sway me into spending more time on one thing or another. But generally I have an idea of where my story is going before I start writing it, so feedback helps to tweak the parts in between start and finish, I think. What I love most about feedback like that is that you can openly discuss your characters with the readers, and it's an open forum on what works and what doesn't. Often, I've taken suggestions from feedback and integrated them into the story itself. Final Exam was originally wholly made up of feedback suggestions, because it was the kind of fic where reader involvement was essential for it to work. But that again, depends on the kind of writer you are. It's not a case of keeping secrets from your audience, but more a way of letting them think that they play a vital role in what you write, because honestly, they do. And discussion, or what is said in discussion is often a huge factor in where I choose to take the story to next.



Excellent questions, by the way. :)


----------
It's dirty. It's all dirty. And all
over me. Dirty, dirty, bad. Bad!

tommo
 


questions

Postby wizpup » Thu Aug 08, 2002 8:53 am

I am late to the party as ever, hope you don’t mind. I have given some thought to your original set of questions and come up with some waffly answers. I apologise in advance for the length of the post and for the inevitable repetition of points already ably made by others.



1.Why do you keep coming back to read or to write W/T fan fiction? You probably have a job/school/family/busy life, and reading and writing fan fiction takes time and effort. Of course, the characters themselves are a huge draw, but what else does fan fiction give you that you can’t get anywhere else? (In general, but also with regard to recent events, of course).



I have found that reading fanfiction has become an extension of the subtext hunting I have done for a long time. As a lesbian, I spent my formative years looking in the media for the characters and situations which reflected my own life and feelings, only to find that they didn’t exist. I’m sure I won’t be the only one to fess up that the first fanfiction I read was J/7. That brought me to Lisa of Nine, who also wrote W/T and I suddenly discovered this whole community that was completely in love with Willow and Tara, and not one bit embarrassed to be celebrating it every day.



I’ve always read compulsively, devouring books at an alarming rate. I read quickly, accepting that I will miss the nuances, but knowing that I will almost certainly re-read. I can happily re-read a book with which I am already overly familiar. I think of them as old friends and never consider them disposable. I am the same way with TV shows or films. My partner never re-reads, in fact she won’t even watch a video if she’s seen the film at the cinema. My approach is to think of stories, whether written or dramatised, more like pieces of music – nobody chucks out a CD after they’ve heard it once do they? (Unless it’s total shite!)



So – what does fanfiction give me that I can’t get elsewhere? I think it is about the community that produces it. The writing, more so on the Pens than any other forum I have found, is the product of other people who are like me. Like me because they are lesbians, or because they have watched every episode of BtVS, or because they are fans of Aly and Amber, or because they are in love with Willow and Tara – all or any of the above. There is a common ground that forms the foundation for the community, and one of its products is the fanfic.



When I first came to the Pens I read the “missing scene” stories which were easiest because I knew what to expect. I wasn’t particularly interested in the original stories or AU’s, because I’d never read them before. Then when I ran out of “missing scenes”, I started on the original pieces and before I knew it I was reading everything that was posted and loving it all.



I guess primarily it’s about the varied descriptions of a loving lesbian relationship between two characters I already care about, written by people who care about them as much as I do.



Why do I keep coming back? To read the next instalment of course! The reason I like Pens more than archives is because it is always changing, always growing. It is like being part of an organic, expanding world, full of twists and surprises yet anchored by the certainty we all feel about the essential ‘rightness’ of Willow and Tara.





2. Is there something about reading and writing W/T fan fiction that is essentially different from the other reading and writing that you do? How would you describe that difference, or how would you say what makes fan fiction reading and writing unique?



Umm… I think I already answered much of this question in my previous ramble. It is, as I already said, a growing process, and on the Pens I can be part of that if I choose. Certainly many people take a far more active role than I in the feedback and praise which forms part of each thread. I am astounded by some of the philosophical debate, which takes place, and by the depth to which themes are explored by the readers. I imagine it’s a little like belonging to a book club or reading circle; each member reads a book or part of it and then the members meet to talk about the story, but also about their own relationship to the narrative and the effect it may have had upon them.



As for writing, my own experience is very limited. I have posted a couple of short pieces and started others, which may or may not make it to the board. It is the only fiction I have written since school so it differs vastly from my other writing, which is work-based (and very boring). But the reason I have written at all is rooted in a desire to be a part of this community, to contribute to it and attempt to give as much pleasure to others as I have received myself in this forum; (which came out a lot more lesbian than it sounded in my head).



3. Have the recent events on the show changed your feelings about W/T fan fiction specifically? Do you feel more or less compelled by it now than before? Does it do something more or less for you than it did before?



If anything, I have become more immersed in the fanfiction, more attached to it and more defensive of it. Unlike many others, I have watched the end of season 6 and believe me; I am more than happy to see all the damage undone by the creative minds of the kittens. I am enjoying the alternative season 7 offerings, and I think that, if anything, there has been an explosion of creativity which could be directly attributed to the way in which season 6 ended on the show.



I was dismayed by initial responses from some who suggested that they would leave Willow and Tara behind in their efforts to heal from the pain of S6. I understand the anger, but I am happy that this has not happened, and that a number of writers have chosen to carry on, keeping Willow and Tara alive and kicking for those of us who actually care.



4. May I ask you follow-up on questions via e-mail?



Feel free!





5. Do you think that at some point your need for W/T fan fiction will go away? If not, why not? Is it really cathartic if you keep coming back to it?



Honestly? I have no idea. I am a bit obsessive by nature and at the moment I don’t feel any desire to go away. I have to admit that I pretty much gave up on J/7 fanfiction once I found the Kitten. I think that is because, much as I loved it, it was pure fantasy whereas Willow and Tara was actually happening right there on the TV screen, and nobody was pretending that it was anything other than two girls in love with each other. The other reason for moving over so whole-heartedly to W/T shipping was the opportunity to be part of the Kitten community. I read J/7 in archives, so it was a solitary experience, whereas here I am part of a group, enjoying the experience with others.



Has it been cathartic? Yes I think so. I have been moved to tears more than once reading accounts of Willow’s grief and turmoil, happy reunions and painful realities. I imagine that the writers have used the writing process for this very purpose, and it has affected me deeply. As long as I feel that way, I will keep coming back for more.



6. How important is the response and feedback of readers to the experience of writing OR READING fan fiction?



Feedback – am I qualified to answer that one? I have been registered for about 10 months and am still a flaming bloody O. I like to think of myself as selective, or mysterious, but the truth is actually that I am lazy and a bit shy. I read almost all the stories posted on the board, and you will find a post from me in most threads if you look hard enough. Part of the reason I don’t post more is that I feel a little intimidated by the time and effort some people put into their feedback – I often just don’t have the time to read all the feedback, so I feel like I can’t post and interrupt the debate. I also feel like this sometimes when there is a lot of banter between updates – it’s almost like there is an in-crowd in the playground, and I’m not part of it. That makes me sound petty, and is probably rather unfair. It’s just a feeling I have had sometimes and I didn’t know if anyone else felt like that or had managed to say as much.



Having said that, at the risk of being a total hypocrite, I have bantered a little myself on occasion, and thoroughly enjoyed the experience. It’s just a matter of being in the right place at the right time I suppose. Maybe my suggestion above is just a fit of jealousy that others are funnier or wittier than I am? Hmmm… I didn’t plan any self-

analysis in this post.



When I did post my first story, way back when, I was utterly thrilled by the response. Nice people said nice things. It was a real encouragement to me, and made me feel part of the community in a way I hadn’t before. Two people even took the time and effort to e-mail me in addition to posting in the thread. That led me to start writing something else, and the end result was that I have spent the last six months in a very privileged position. I get sneak previews of Katharyn’s Sidestep Chronicle, in order to beta-read it.



Reading the feedback in the thread can be a positive part of the whole experience or package. I am grateful that the Kitten is so well moderated, as it means that I have not had to read the flames that pop up from time to time. The only thing I don’t like is when a reader decides to offer critical analysis of the writer in middle of the thread. There are some inexperienced writers who will learn a great deal from a more experienced beta-reader or through helpful, private, constructive criticism. I firmly believe this should be done via e-mail. I know everyone asks for feedback when they post – but there are ways and means – if you feel strongly that you are able to offer helpful advice about style or standard of writing, I know I’d rather it wasn’t quite so public. Just occasionally I’ve felt like I was watching someone get told off by the teacher in the middle of class.



7. Does feedback help to improve a writer’s craft?



I don’t have any kind of track record as a writer, so this one is probably best to others. What I will say (because I can never let it lie) is that the few bits and bobs I have sent to be beta’d have improved as a result of the comments and suggestions made in the feedback. There’s something about the opinion of others – I know that Katharyn has already talked about this – which allows for a vital sense of objectivity in the development process.



Enough already.



jo x



wizpup
 


Okay, my turn :)

Postby jomarch » Thu Aug 08, 2002 11:55 am

For you writers, how attuned are you to the amount and kind of feedback you get in your thread?



It is like a drug sometimes :) and I do like getting feedback because it is the best clue that people are not only reading but also affected by or feel involved in the story I'm trying to tell. Overall, it's just great to get any type of feedback - just a simple good chapter, to I don't believe so and so did that, to pinpointing particular scenes or lines or ideas, or even you shouldn't have done that!



Do you notice if you get less or more for a particular chapter?



I haven't counted them and normally I guess I see more at the end of a story or nearing the end. I guess some readers who have read the story through feel more comfortable when it is finished/about to be finished to either comment about the entire story or just to say they're sorry it's going to end.



How do you respond to a change in the tone of responses from one chapter to the next?



The thing about written responses is that sometimes it can get mis-interpreted. Initially, for my first story, I had to read a few responses a couple of times because I really wasn't sure but overall, if it's a happy chapter, you'd expect ha ha, very funny and if it's an angsty one then it'd be - I hope you won't hurt the girls any more...



If you get less, do you assume that something went wrong?



You know what they say about assuming:) . I do trust my betas and if she says the chapter is good to go then I won't argue.



How much does your impression of the feedback you get affect how you write future parts?



Most of the time, I have the story mapped out and only change it when I am in the midst of actually writing it out. However, there have been one or two instances where I remember reading a feedback response saying that something was not expected or slightly unclear and if I have the opportunity, I'd try and clarify it within the confines of the story.



Ok, hope that made some semblance of sense.



jomarch
 


Read to Write

Postby darkmagicwillow » Fri Sep 06, 2002 1:37 pm

I've read more than once that to be a good writer, you have to read a lot and you have write a lot, so my question is what types of books do you read that feed however indirectly into your writing?



You probably read other fan fiction and I find that invaluable for perspectives on minor characters, but what else do you read? I find history to be one of the best genres for learning about people and events and how to merge them into a cohesive realistic whole. I mentioned Barbara Tuchman's A Distant Mirror in another thread and that's a great history book that really lets you see how people struggled through a difficult time very different from others.



--
"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit. "   "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

darkmagicwillow
 


Re: Read to Write

Postby tommo » Fri Sep 06, 2002 3:14 pm

Quote:
You missed response category 6: Smutty banter, jokes and propositions (usually taking place in tommo's fics, and constituting about 50% of the postings on the thread)




Been counting have we? I generally find that creating an atmosphere to surround a story with really helps readers to come back. I can't even begin to think of the number of times people have gone into my thread to read the "smutty banter" in between updates. But then I suppose that's just me. :)


----------
"The only thing going for me -
were those moments - just
moments - when Tara would look at
me and I was wonderful."

tommo
 


Re: Read to Write

Postby Tulipp » Fri Sep 06, 2002 4:03 pm

Of course, then there are the other 50% (although we may need to check that math), which include responses to character, plot developments, theories of the wishverse, etc. Yes, in that same thread. Imagine.



I am wondering if even the idea of the smut response could be broken down. There's the "thud" response, and the "excuse me while I go take a shower," but I think that even in that single category, there are probably a lot of moves that get made.



Then again, my dissertation advisor has always told me I am overly prone to categorization. Sigh.



But I'd like to second darkmagicwillow's question...it's a great one. What are people reading, or even watching, that they find feeds fic?

Edited by: Tulipp at: 9/6/02 3:07:21 pm
Tulipp
 


Re: Read to Write

Postby vix84 » Mon Sep 09, 2002 8:34 am

Instead of following your questions I'm going to rebel and create my own sections, writing and reading/feedback.



Writing



-I don't use a beta, I've only put one fic on Pens, and I have to rely on myself for editing/criticising/suggesting/etc. It's quite difficult and I think for my next fic I'll definitely get a beta reader. My uni degree (I'm first year) is in creative writing, so I'm used to writing under pressure...although a very different type of pressure (my mean uni tutor teasing us, as opposed to lovely little :pray emoticons and "update soon!!!" from the readers).



-I find writing W/T fic completely different to any kind of writing I do. I automatically change my style. Instead of focussing on using 'clever' language techniques, presenting meaningful ideas and carefully checking my structure/characters/plot, I get caught up in my love of W/T and just babble! It's quite terrible, all i want to do is write about one of their outfits, or a cute giggle, or how soft their skin is. *sigh* But it's so much fun!



-That leads onto one of your original questions: why the addiction to fan fic? For me it's a place to let myself go, whether writing or reading it. Every fic is devoted to them as a couple, so even the worst angst still has that knowing that eventually the writer will put them back together. And take great glee in doing so! The incentive to write is based on giving myself enjoyment, through getting to describe their wonderful relationship (especially them getting together in the first place, so many fics are based on that now), as well as pleasing the reader with an alternative perception of the couple.



-I listen to music while writing. Usually Sarah Mclachlan (heh) or Alison Krauss, or some other singer from my long list of W/T music. I find it really helps me get into the atmosphere of the scene, particularly if it's a very emotive scene. I put the song on repeat and shut my eyes, imagining what both Willow and Tara would be thinking. I find my best stuff comes when I'm not thinking too much, just letting it flow. Then I edit it later, when the music's off.



Reading and Feedback

-I'm addicted. To all types of fic. When I started, I mainly read PG-13 and NC-17 rated fics. I don't know why, they were generally longer Ionger (I really prefer longer fics). And the smut was great (since BtVs neglected W/T's sex life for three seasons).



-I hated reading people's feedback (not for my stories, I love that!) at first, it distracted me, and made it harder to read. After a while I started to like reading it, I find some people have really interesting comments/analysis/ideas. Particularly in the longer fics. In Tommo's 'Final Exam', where the mini-debate is currently taking place about the lesbian cliche, I love how the little community has come together and can discuss, argue, explain their ideas, and make you think about the fic in a whole new way.



-In terms of feedback for my writing, I can't get enough of it. Firstly, obviously, it's fun to get responses (especially when you are praised, or an image is particularly liked and commented upon). And if there's less than usual/different tone, I wonder if I could have written something better. But it's even more than that. It influences you. In my fic, one of the readers has reached a conclusion about what i plan to do "Oh you're going to...!", and what they imagine is nothing like what I planned. But then I start to doubt my original plan. I don't see this as a bad thing, but the opposite. It makes you clarify in your mind exactly what you're very sure about, and the lukewarm/vague bits of writing that could be changed/bettered.



OK I've written way too much! If you need to ask me anything, my email is devixen84@yahoo.com



Good luck with the article!





-------------------------

Willow: Those darn Salem judges. With their less-satanic-than-thou attitude.

Tara: Oh, honey, let’s change it. The Discovery channel has koala bears.


Intervention

vix84
 


Re: Read to Write

Postby Tulipp » Wed Sep 11, 2002 5:59 pm

vix, thanks for your response; it really helps so much to see how people think about the reading and writing they do, and so far, it seems that everyone has a different take. Not so much on what Willow and Tara mean to them--because there seems to be some basic common grond there--but about what the reading and writing is actually like. So thanks.

Tulipp
 


Re: Read to Write

Postby Kieli » Wed Sep 11, 2002 7:34 pm

I too am coming far too damned late to this really interesting thread.



I attempted to use a Beta once before. She was a lawyer who had never written before in her life. I never did that again. Her suggestions sounded good until I attempted to actually put them into practice. I found that her thoughts had intruded into my own and somehow my vision for the story got altered in such a way that it was no longer mine. Needless to say, the story fell so flat that I shudder every time I go back and look on it. I keep it around as a reminder to always follow my gut when it comes to writing.



Although I've only posted two stories here at the Pens, I've been writing for many years. I don't use a beta in earnest now and I find that it makes me feel very free, liberated. Now I just write when it flows (and when my muse is behaving her damn self :mad ) and the words come easier.



I do tend to write down ideas on anything I can get my hands on. Oddly enough, almost ALL of my ideas for stories come from either music that I love or dreams. I can't begin to tell you how many times I've woken up at 2am to frantically write down the last vestiges of a dream that would make a great story. Drives Diana batty! :lol Come Away With Me and She's A Keeper turned out far better than I could've ever imagined. They have exceeded my hopes and expectations and, for the life of me, I can not figure out how that happened.



Tulipp, this is a truly inspired thread. I've learned a great deal about the methodology of other authors and it has been an intriguing lesson. Thanks ever so much!



Toni


Love is tricky. It is never mundane or daily. You can never get used to it. You have to walk with it, then let it walk with you. You can never balk. It moves you like the tide. It takes you out to sea then lays you on the beach again. Today's struggling pain is the foundation for a certain stride through the heavens. You can run from it but you can never say no. It includes everyone."--Amy Tan "The Hundred Secret Senses"

Kieli
 


my two cents worth

Postby forrister » Fri Sep 13, 2002 3:55 am

I have read some of the things that other folk have said in response to this and I am adding my two cents worth. I think that your study will be well worth reading when its done. I don’t mind you contacting me to ask questions. I am available at forrister@hotmail.com







- Why do you keep coming back to read or to write W/T fan fiction?



I guess because I want more of the characters than appears on camera. Fic gives you ideas about how a character thinks and feels as well as giving you more of the stories that you enjoy. Writing fan fics gives you a certain intimacy with the characters that you can’t get watching the eps. You can make them over in your own ideas of who and what they are, and you can put them in situations that could never happen on TV.



- Is there something about reading and writing W/T fan fiction that is essentially different from the other reading and writing that you do? How would you describe that difference, or how would you say what makes fan fiction reading and writing unique?



Yes – you start out with preconceived ideas about the characters, and then move on to explore those ideas. In normal fiction you have to introduce the characters and give them . . . well character. With fan fiction you can skip that often tedious process and concentrate on the story. You have a ready-made framework to hang things on.





- Have the recent events on the show changed your feelings about W/T fan fiction specifically? Do you feel more or less compelled by it now than before? Does it do something more or less for you than it did before?



The season 6 events pretty much stopped me from watching the show, but it hasn’t stopped me from reading and writing fics. I guess because the fics are so much more acceptable to me than the events on the show. I don’t think I will give up the fics because in my mind Willow and Tara will always be together – they may go through a lot but in the end they will have long lives with each other. I may be accused of living in denial, but I like denial and it’s a far more pleasant place than the season 6 ‘reality’. I refuse to stop enjoying something that I’ve enjoyed so much just because the show and I have come to a parting of the ways.



- Do you think that at some point your need for W/T fan fiction will go away? If not, why not? Is it really cathartic if you keep coming back to it?



I think it may given a lot of time – like years. But like some of the other fan fics characters and universes I have loved in the past, I will always have a fondness for them, so in a way the need will never completely go away.



- How important is the response and feedback of readers to the experience of writing OR READING fan fiction?

- Does feedback help to improve a writer’s craft?



In my view, feedback is the coin you pay for the stories you like. It encourages folk to write more and gives you a chance to express your opinion. I hate flames though – they may cause controversy and encourage more feedback – but the whole situation is negative and leaves a bad taste in my mouth. If you have something bad to say about a piece the least you can do is to email the author and say it privately – not make a song and dance about it in public. I have done some writing and while I don’t do it for the feedback specifically, it feels good when you get positive feedback and can make you feel like a waste of space when you get none. It can help improve your writing – depending on the feedback you get. I think the more you write – and the more you get opinions on your writing – in beta reading and in feedback – the better writer you become.







Haec ego non multis (scribo), sed tibi: satis enim magnum alter alteri theatrum sumus.

(I write this not to the many, but to you only, for you and I are surely enough of an audience for each other.)







forrister
 


Re: my two cents worth

Postby Tulipp » Fri Sep 13, 2002 2:38 pm

Kieli and Forrister, thank you both for your responses. I am so glad that this thread is still popping up now and again. I will be contacting you both by e-mail (at least for permission purposes but perhaps also with questions).



Kieli, your take on the beta issue is really intriguing; I have at the moment up to three people reading any given chapter I post, but they are all essentially different beta relationships: different kinds of conversations, different things that they see and respond to. I think I'm spoiled now, though, because I really can't imagine doing it any other way. But it's still a question: where do you (or anyone) draw the lines between what a beta reader says and what you do? It's fascinating to me to see how that line gets drawn in different places for everyone.



And Forrister, you raise a point that I find really intriguting, this idea that you start with preconceived characters or ideas but then move away from them. This seems to me to be essentially true; we all start with characters who are rooted in the show, but then there is a line that gets crossed and they become our characters.



The question for me is then something like this: where does that happen, that gradual claiming of the characters? Can you (or anyone) point to the place where a line gets crossed?



That might be impossible, but I thought I'd ask anyway because Kittens can do anything. :)

Tulipp
 


Claiming characters as your own

Postby darkmagicwillow » Fri Sep 13, 2002 3:02 pm

I think this happens most strongly with minor characters who aren't as well defined, giving the writer more freedom to claim the characters as his or her own. I really disliked Anya and Dawn on the show, but I love your quite different Dawn in Terra Firma and Sassette's Anya in Answering Darkness.



For Willow and Tara, much of what I see on Pens this summer has been the reclaiming of the characters after the disastrous events of season 6, restoring them to what they were before everything went downhill. That said, the alternate universe characters can be very different like the Tara of Katharyn's Sidestep Chronicle.



As you know, Tulipp, I've chosen my own way to get the kind of distance AU stories offer for the story I'm working on now. I've put about 20 years between the events of the show and my story, allowing me a huge amount of leeway to remove characters I don't want in the story and to reshape the ones I want to change.



Kieli, I don't know how you do it without a beta. I don't think I could've gotten as far as I have (60,000 words as of today) without that encouragement and feedback. Maybe you just haven't found the right person yet.



--
"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit. "   "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

Edited by: darkmagicwillow at: 9/13/02 2:06:51 pm
darkmagicwillow
 


Re: Claiming characters as your own

Postby Katharyn » Sat Sep 14, 2002 1:37 am

Does what has happened affect your writing? - Well further to the original response to this that I made some time ago, it has today stopped me cold. Dead cold. And that is just the follow-on stuff from the events of last season together with the rumours of next.



It does not change what I write... but it stops me. All my fic, beta for other people. Everything. Cos sometimes... despite the noble "lets take them back from ME" intention I just can't do that.



And that is something I despise in myself.



Sorry... you may realise I am writing in anger, but I thought that it was a worthwhile thing to say how the outside world can affect us as writers. If I am upset about something writing has always been the way out... or something to get me through.



When I am upset about W/T I have no where to turn so it all just stops.



(And to think I only came online to apologise to someone. Two someones. They know who they are.)



Katharyn

----------------

Katharyn
 

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