The Lesbian Hand Thing - Biology and Homosexuality

[sprhrgrl]

Since I'm in resurrection mode (and hopefully no daemons will come and attack us), I thought I'd pull this "one from the vaults" too. . .



After Saturday Night Live, NBCSanDiego is nice enough to replay an old episode of SNL. The one that was on this Saturday (originally aired on May 10th, 1997 and hosted by John Goodman) began with Ellen and Anne Heche on Oprah.



It wasn't spectacular comedywise, but I noticed that when Anne entered and greeted Ellen, she sat down next to her and pawed at her hand for a while. It was like, palming but slightly more violent, while still being obligingly cutesy. It was also amusing.

sprhrgrl.com

counting*stars

racism=sexism=homophobia

The truth shall set you free, but first it will piss you off. – Gloria Steinem

[pioggia acida]

my left index is shorter, my right index is longer, i have long nails, and i do the less girlie thing when i look at my nails, i am also left handed, but prefer my right for certain things



thanks for all the studies and things, it kept me entertained for quite a while

[bluemote]

see! i think a whole new study in this is needed! who else is right/left handed but uses the other hand for things......?

i am beginning to think there is a thesis in this

[sprhrgrl]

That'd be fun to defend, bluemote. . . Can you just imagine getting a panel of square old men?

sprhrgrl.com

counting*stars

racism=sexism=homophobia

The truth shall set you free, but first it will piss you off. – Gloria Steinem

[tarafreak24]

yep.....



have to agree with all you kittend......hands

got to love them.....its one of the first things i look at a woman......long fingures........yum

anyways , i think i have to admmit......yes !

my name is mika and i have a hand fetish......lol

[aimbly]

right, soo if i hold my hands up both index fingers are marginally longer - buuut if i put my hands down on the table, my ring fingers are clearly longer. Hmm. Does that mean i'm only gay when i'm on a table??



Oooh ooh and, i'm right handed but HAVE to use my left hand for *cough* things. In fact i would go as far to say that my right hand is useless at 'things' - but of course that makes it sound like im not hot stuff, which yanno, i really am.

"Life's such an irritant for a picture of innocence like me"

- Mark and Cerys - 'To and Fro'

[Shadow ALH]

My ring finger is exactly the same length as my index finger! Ha! I wonder what that means?



I am also left handed, but use my right hand for other things. It wasn't always that way, but I hurt my left wrist playing rugby and had to improvise. Now I could use either, but tend to prefer the right.

[Lael]

Well, I always say that one lesbian checking out another lesbians hands is the same as a straight girl checking out a man's...um....package to see how well endowed they are.



Lael

-------------
"Croutons are GOD!" - Holley, Vegas 2003

[maudmac]

Hee, croutons are GOD!



I really wish I remembered saying that...



It's pretty much true, though. Those croutons were amazing.

---

i know there is strength
in the differences between us
and i know there is comfort
where we overlap

[Vampire Willow]

I, myself, have an obsession with hands. I am aways messing with people's fingers and hands while they are sitting in class. My friends have be come immune to it over time but those people who don't know me find it quite annoying!



I do like hands alot--although I tend to find...other parts of the womans anatomy appealing just a bit more.

LOL





~Tash xoxo

"We repulse ourselves! I mean, I used to look in the mirror and go, "Well, I'm not going to shag me, that's for certain!"-Eddie Izzard

[HOPE REIGNS]

ok, quick hand story.When GF and I first started dating, spent many hours watching TV and holding hands (more like hand cuddling, carressing), and she always use to ask me how I learned how to hold hands so well, it just amazed her (I think that's what kept her around). Many emotions can be expressed throught the hands that not many other body parts (or words) can express. Now, seven years later they have elevated to healing status for her, and every ache or pain requires hands on healing (now now, quit thinking that way). It kind of ruined the compliments I got from family members for the backrubs I give though. Anyway, hands are amazing things and I for one am honored to be blessed with a good pair of em'.



I too am left handed, but use my right hand for many things.



Thanx for listening to the ramblings,



Anna:-)

Even though they are no longer here in body, their souls continue on in our hearts.

[Nix42]

So this is how sad my life has become. I was 2 hours into a particularly boring meeting at work today, when I realized that I had completely zoned out as I was too busy trying to work out which of my fingers were longer (clearly I only realised I wasn't paying attention when I was asked a direct question)



Anyway, the conclusion of my finger study, and the reason it took so much concentration If I look at my hands palm side up, the index fingers look longer, but palm down on the table the ring fingers are marginally longer ... I'm happy to accept marginally longer!

If Mrs Whitehouse saw this, she'd have our collective danglies in a Magi-Mix

Gus Hedges, Drop the Dead Donkey

[wolfwynd]

my index fingers are longer than my ring fingers on both hands!! Does this mean I'm not gay?!?!? I think my girlfriend might have a bit to say about that....



As for hand holding? I love it, I need to touch her every second of the day so hand holding is the ideal way, who cares whos staring!



Yeah I'm left handed and use my right for *other* things... interesting that. And I also bite my nails



Keep the love alive... + =



Wolfy

"Amo il Corridoio di Alice Hall"

[Aradia785]

*sings a song, does a dance, skips around the room chanting* "I'm gayer than Laura! I'm gayer than Laura!"



Ann

If I hear that Gong of Doom I will send stoned squirrels to raid your kitchen
- Lisa of Nine

Operation Free MyRack! Who wants to join the coalition of the willing?

[wolfwynd]

Oh shut up Ann **holds up woodern board and watches Ann go skipping into it** HA! **evil laugh** Man I REALLY need sleep.... **sigh**



Keep the love alive.... + =



Wolfy

"Amo il Corridoio di Alice Hall"

[Lt Sticks]

lol both my ring fingers are longer than my index fingers, and I do the non girly thing with my nails...things are looking good for the gayness of me



~Sticks

A fire in my heart, reborn from the ashes...just call me Phoenix



I'm Under Your Spell, nothing I can do, you just took my soul with you...

[Jennpurr]

*Grabs Sticks hand and twirls her around*



Me too!



Hee... and thanks to a bunch of you, I've now realized that I always stare at women's hands. Before, I think it was just a subconscious thing. I didn't really realize I was doing it, but now... I notice myself looking.



Jen

||My Fan Fiction and More!|| ||My Yahoo Group||
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
"See... that's where you're a dummy. I think about... what you grew up with, and... then I look at what you are... it makes me proud. It makes me love you more," - Willow to Tara in, "Family."

[Lt Sticks]

*dances around with Jen*



hehe i started doing that too, I was wondering what i was doing in my bio exam after id finished, and i realised i was checking out the hands of the girl near me...I nearly burst out laughing cos about half an hour before, id been on here reading this thread



~Sticks

A fire in my heart, reborn from the ashes...just call me Phoenix



I'm Under Your Spell, nothing I can do, you just took my soul with you...

[Aradia785]

*skips around wooden board* Hey Laura, dont hate me because you aint me. Its not easy being this gay. I'm constantly looking at girls' fingers and girls' hands and girls'... well, we'll just say I dont get much done some days.



*skips away, still chanting "I'm gayer than Laura"*



Ann

If I hear that Gong of Doom I will send stoned squirrels to raid your kitchen
- Lisa of Nine

Operation Free MyRack! Who wants to join the coalition of the willing?

[Jennpurr]

||My Fan Fiction and More!|| ||My Yahoo Group||
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
"See... that's where you're a dummy. I think about... what you grew up with, and... then I look at what you are... it makes me proud. It makes me love you more," - Willow to Tara in, "Family."

[Gatito Grande]

I decided to quote the following article on this thread, because they're really all of a piece: the possibility that lesbians---on average---are more biologically masculine than heterosexual females.



I, for one, am not threatened by this possibility at all. The only problems I can see are the fact this greater biological masculinity will be seen (in and of itself) as a pathology---especially in regards to "screening" young girls (infants? fetuses?) for signs of it. That we will have to watch out for.



Beyond that, as this article depicts, there can be problems w/ specific "masculinizing" conditions, as they effect fertility (as well as increase the chances that lesbians will be subject to the kinds of health problems that are greater, on average, among men). Lesbians (and other queer females) will, again, have to make sure that these specific conditions are seen as just that---and resist all blanket attempts to hormonally "feminize" us. YMMV!

Quote:

---

Common Fertility Snag More Prevalent in Lesbians

Reuters

Jun 30 2003 11:24AM



MADRID (Reuters) - Lesbians are more likely to suffer from a common fertility problem that can also increase their risk of developing obesity, heart disease and diabetes than other women.

Dr Rina Agrawal, a fertility expert at the London Women's Clinic and The Hallam Medical Center in Britain, said an ovarian problem caused by an imbalance of sex hormones is more than twice as common in lesbians as in heterosexual women.



"A startling number of lesbian women have polycystic ovarian syndrome (PCOS)," Agrawal told a fertility conference.



"The prevalence of PCOS is two and a half times, almost three times, as high in lesbian women compared to heterosexual women."



PCOS is the commonest cause of ovarian dysfunction in women. It is characterized by abnormal follicles, cells in which the eggs mature in the ovaries, irregular periods, acne, obesity, a hormone imbalance and an increase in body and facial hair.



The London clinic was among the first centers in Europe to offer fertility treatment to lesbians and single women. In a study of 618 women treated at the clinic, Agrawal discovered that 38 percent of the lesbian women had PCOS, compared to 14 percent of the heterosexual women.



The cause of PCOS is unknown but an excess of androgens, or male hormones, has been linked with PCOS. Other research studies have linked hyperandrogenism to sexual orientation.



Agrawal said her research neither suggests nor indicates PCOS causes lesbianism, only that PCOS is more prevalent in lesbian women.



"Our data does not make any conclusions or assumptions because it would be incorrect to make assumptions based on one single study," she said.



But she added that doctors should be aware that lesbians have a higher rate of PCOS because it has health implications beyond fertility.



"The main concern is on the wider health aspects such as obesity, non-insulin dependent (type 2) diabetes and cardiovascular disease which are much more common in women with PCOS -- that is where the concern comes in," she said.



"Our study emphasizes the importance of treating these women in a non-judgmental and non-biased manner so that clinicians may offer them appropriate health advice."

---

my.aol.com/news/news_stor...2427160536



GG Mods, might you consider renaming this thread, in order to clearly discuss *all* these "lesbians and biological masculinity" issues? Out





ETA: Thought it would be good to link to the original "hand" study, so you can see the relation (i.e. "it's all about the androgens")



news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/scien...695142.stm

Edited by: Gatito Grande at: 6/30/03 10:18 am

[MadeinNZ]

I think my hand is definitely gay. You should see what it gets up to when women are around.

[urnofosiris]

Lol Madein, what more proof does one need?



Thanks for posting that article Gatito.

I will respond to it after I get back from work. My first impression is that it is a crappy article. The conclusions that are being drawn do not seem to be based in fact, but rather in assumptions, I will check my facts before I elaborate on this. (ah and the thread has been renamed)

-------------------------


Coffee, Food, Kisses and Gay Love........Get it while you are hot

Edited by: DrG at: 6/30/03 11:03 pm

[T Maclay]

Quote:

---

Lesbians are more likely to suffer from a common fertility problem ............

PCOS is the commonest cause of ovarian dysfunction in women. It is characterized by abnormal follicles, cells in which the eggs mature in the ovaries, irregular periods, acne, obesity, a hormone imbalance and an increase in body and facial hair.

---

Well that just proves it, I'm gay!!! I spent 7 years trying to get pregnant before I realised I really was gay and moved on to the better things in life. I am now for ever getting called back for smears as I have 'abnormal cells', and told on further investagatinon that I have abnormal follocles, cells, but they dont know why, what it is. And as for the irregular periods, well thats me. I also have to wax my chin alot more than I would like to have to (not that it's very often, but once is to much) - so there you have it, I'm gay!!!



But in all honesty, I really dont know if this acticle is correct, just because I am gay and fit in to what it says doesnt really prove that as Im sureI could find plenty of straight people who also do.

Bored-Now

[3peanuts]

*Sigh* I always tend to be quite skeptical about those "scientific" articles: they seem to discover The truth and most of times it's all a load of crap. And I don't trust statystic studies at all: if they don't give me all the data and explain all the criteria I convince myself that they are pretty superficial and just trash them. The Ring Finger thing has come up a lot of times during discussions at my association, expecially during the newbie meetings: as usual we concluded it was pure idiocy, full of prejudices about a "gene-problem" for gay people. Even if we discover that homosexuality has a genetic origin, what do we do? We mark gay and lesbians with a pink triangle and test genetic experiments on them? There is always a vein of fascism in this studies: it reminds me of when they made studies on the i.q. of ethnical minorities in the USA... My two cents



Something lighter: well, I must admit my gf likes to suckle on my left ring finger after lunch and dinner...oral phase and lesbian hand thing: doctor Freud, analyse this!



And she plays guitar, so she has a hand with long nails and the other with these pink, perfect, short nails. It's kinda sexy: she scratches and caresses in a mesmerizing way...

"Cunning linguist" GG

Keynes was right

[Gatito Grande]

I may have a different take on this than do some of you. I think there's an excellent chance that this study is correct: that lesbians do on average (you can't overestimate the "on average" part) have higher amounts of androgens in their system than do heterosexual women.



There are a couple of complicating factors (of course, there are way more than a couple!), and that is, what is the relation to these "adult androgen-raising conditions" (like this PCOS thing) versus "prenatal androgen conditions." They may be linked, and they may not be (and one or both *may* be linked to increasing levels of lesbianism---and/or gender dysphoria in FTMs).



Yes, the science may be bogus altogether. However, I have to say that, intuitively, I don't think so (FWIW!). The critical issue(s) are the implications of such studies. Maybe some of you have seen/heard of the play The Twilight of the Golds? It's about a (*future*, for now) test that pregnant women could take, that would indicate that their baby would "grow up gay," and what one couple decides to do in that situation.



I don't think that these, or any other studies, will ever predict that w/ certainty that fetuses or infants (or pre-adolescent children) will be gay/lesbian/bi/trans. Nor will there ever come the day that one can say "Oh, that's why I'm gay!" However, in terms of probability, there may be a lot to these kind of hormonal studies.



Most importantly, true or not, there are those who would make policy---make homo/trans-phobic policy---using these studies. We (queers) can't afford to stick our heads in the sand, and scoff at them---like there's no truth whatsoever there.



The iron-clad rule of fighting oppression, is that we *must* be BETTER informed than our oppressors.



Example of implication: what if the Olympics committees try to rule that lesbians can't compete against het women, because their androgens (i.e., similar to steroids) are higher? I remember that kind of reasoning going back to Martina Navratolova!



(Or, put slightly differently, they could rule against women whose androgen levels were above x ambient level---w/ the potential result that 90% of lesbian athletes failed the test. And then the Olympics committees would say, "We're not discriminating---they all must be using steroids!" )



GG OK, so maybe I'm paranoid ---still, these kind of things *could* happen. We queer females need to have a response to these kind of studies, if they are true, as well as pointing out flawed science which might make them highly suspect. Out

[Jennpurr]

Wooo Hooo... I'm gay, too!!



*skips around, whistling happily*







*looks at all the kittens who are staring at me*



What?







Jen

||My Fan Fiction and More!|| ||My Yahoo Group|| ||September 11th 2001 - An on-line Memorial||
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
"Have you forgotten all the people killed? Yes, some went down like heroes in that Pennsylvania field; Have you forgotten about our Pentagon? All the loved ones that we lost; And those left to carry on; Don't you tell me not to worry 'bout Bin Laden; Have you forgotten?" Darryl Worley, "Have You Forgotten?"

[Aradia785]

Jenn, thank God! I was scared it was just me.



Ann

If I hear that Gong of Doom I will send stoned squirrels to raid your kitchen
- Lisa of Nine

Operation Free MyRack! Who wants to join the coalition of the willing?

[sprhrgrl]

I don't know what I am any more. . . But I know that I dug what Gatito Grande said when she said this:

The only problems I can see are the fact this greater biological masculinity will be seen (in and of itself) as a pathology---especially in regards to "screening" young girls (infants? fetuses?) for signs of it. That we will have to watch out for.

Because I think I may be reading it slightly differently, but don't we as a society condemn "boys that act like girls" and "girls that act like boys?" I make jokes about how my father wanting me to be his little tomboy turned me gay, but maybe that natural inclination to run in the dirt and break my arm by playing on logs was an expression of my future queerness. Whatever.



I'm so proud of my baby thread. She's gained three different topics and all grown up. (smile)

sprhrgrl.com

she's my everything

racism=sexism=homophobia

The truth shall set you free, but first it will piss you off. - Gloria Steinem

Edited by: sprhrgrl  at: 7/2/03 12:31 am

[Gatito Grande]

Quote:

---

don't we as a society condemn "boys that act like girls" and "girls that act like boys?"

---

Yup, it's highly threatening to many people. You may be justly proud of your thread, sprhrgrl, but I keep tripping on how I have issues (who me? ) that could go on any of several threads. Take this story:



my.aol.com/news/news_stor...0833171086



It could sort of go here, or on the Trans thread, or on an Intersex thread (don't we have one of those?), or on a Genderqueer thread (we *should* have one of those!)---maybe even on a "Look what crazy sh*t science is up to now!" thread. But, because I'm here on this thread now, here it is:

Quote:

---

Creation of Human 'She-Males' Sparks Outrage

Reuters

Jul 2 2003 1:08PM



MADRID (Reuters) - Scientists in the United States have created hybrid human "she-males," mixing male and female cells in the same embryo, outraging fertility experts and anti-abortionists.



Dr. Norbert Gleicher of the Foundation for Reproductive Medicine in Chicago and a colleague injected male cells into female embryos in research which they believe could lead to better treatments or cures for single gene disorders.



But their work provoked revulsion when they presented it to the annual meeting of the European Society of Human Reproduction and Embryology (ESHRE).



"There are very good reasons why this type of research is generally rejected by the international research community," Dr. Francoise Shenfield of ESHRE said on Wednesday.



"I cannot conceive of any situation in which this particular technique would be acceptable, and if it cannot be applied there is not much use in experimenting with it," she added.



Gleicher and his colleague used male cells because they were easier to track as they studied the development of the embryos up to six days.



Their work also sparked outrage from abortion opponents who described it as run-away science.



"This is gross manipulation of human life," said Nuala Scarisbrick of British anti-abortion charity Life.



"The creation of a 'she-male' is disgusting, but not surprising."



Gleicher's study was not the only research presented during the four-day conference which enraged pro-life groups.



An Israeli scientist who said eggs retrieved from aborted fetuses could relieve the worldwide shortage of human eggs for fertility treatments also stoked fears that science was advancing before legal and ethical consequences could be considered.

---

Now the above has nothing to do w/ lesbians. But it's just the "outrage" provoked (to mere petri dish tests): it still speaks to how the whole concept of how *anything other* than "masculine boy - > man heterosexual males" and "feminine girl - > woman heterosexual females" freaks people. (I especially feel for any intersex people reading this story: your existence is a "gross" "disgusting" "revulsion," don't you know? )



GG I'm *still* waiting for the reproductive break-through story I've dreamed about for years : double-egg (nuclei) embryos---so Heather can biologically have two mommies! Out