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The Scarier "Religion & Homosexuality" Thread

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Postby daddykat » Sat Sep 06, 2003 12:42 pm

Sort of an undistriuted middle term in the article; since AFA opposes pornography, condemning child porn and praying for the victims thereof is kind of subsumed in the larger issue they address. Which of course doesn't speak to their motives or function as a defense for any of their other actions. But the hypocrisy of AFA or any other organization needs to be judged on the basis of the organization's actions and positions. A crime committed by a particualr employee in his off-hours (obviously soemthing he kept secret) isn't in itself an indictment of his place of work. It's in soem ways comparable to an employee of the Mission where I'm staying going on a 3-day drunk.

I did see Dr. James Dobson on Larry King last (?) night. Have seen soem good stuff by him in the past (his book on Scriptural ethics was interesting) but the man's historical perspective or lack of same and his logical methods on political issues, I'm sorry, a bit scary.

daddykat
 


Re: `

Postby Warduke » Mon Sep 29, 2003 9:15 pm

Read this at Yahoo...



Quote:
Episcopal Leader Defends Gay Bishop



By RACHEL ZOLL, AP Religion Writer



NEW YORK - With two key meetings ahead that could determine whether the Episcopal Church splits over homosexuality, the denomination's leader defended his support Monday for an openly gay bishop in an interview with The Associated Press.



Presiding Bishop Frank Griswold said he voted at last month's General Convention to confirm Bishop-elect V. Gene Robinson because Episcopalians in New Hampshire had overwhelmingly chosen him in their local election and had the right to make that choice. Griswold also argued that Scripture does not condemn same-sex relationships, a position conservatives vehemently reject.



Robinson has lived with his male partner for more than 13 years and worked in the Diocese of New Hampshire for about 15 years.



"I wasn't settling the question of sexuality. I was affirming the choice of a diocese," Griswold said, seated in his midtown Manhattan office.



Later, he said that in biblical times there was no understanding that homosexuality was a natural orientation and not a choice.



"Discreet acts of homosexuality" were condemned in the Bible because they were acts of lust instead of the "love, forgiveness, grace" of committed same-sex relationships, he said.



"Homosexuality, as we understand it as an orientation, is not mentioned in the Bible," he said. "I think the confirmation of the bishop of New Hampshire is acknowledging what is already a reality in the life of the church and the larger society of which we are a part."



Griswold made the comments at a critical time for his leadership of the 2.3-million member Episcopal Church.



Next week, the conservative American Anglican Council will gather more than 1,400 lay Episcopalians, bishops and clergy in Dallas to decide whether to break from the denomination over Robinson.



The following week, on Oct. 15-16, Griswold will join fellow leaders of the world Anglican Communion at an emergency meeting in London to prevent their association from fracturing over the gay bishop and other issues related to homosexuality.



The Episcopal Church is the U.S. branch of the 77-million-member global Anglican Communion, which represents churches that trace their roots to the Church of England.



Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams, the communion's spiritual leader, summoned the other 37 church primates to London after several overseas bishops threatened to sever ties with the Americans. Archbishop of Nigeria Peter Akinola called electing Robinson "a satanic attack on God's church."



U.S. conservatives have asked Williams to consider authorizing a separate Anglican province in North America. Griswold would not say whether he thought the idea would be approved, but said he believed it would require a vote by the American church's General Convention, not a decision by Williams, to authorize it.



"It would involve our own decision-making processes, our own constitution, so most likely it would require action by the General Convention," he said.



Asked his reaction to demands from some critics that he be sanctioned personally, Griswold shrugged and said "whatever will be, will be." But he also said he would explain to the other Anglican leaders that, unlike many of them, he does not have the authority to intervene in a diocese.



Griswold said he has met with about 20 American bishops in New York and in visits to other dioceses since the national convention last month and was "deeply concerned" for those "troubled" by Robinson's confirmation.



A handful of U.S. dioceses have held special conventions that rejected Robinson's ratification and asked world Anglican leaders to intervene.







Some bishops and parishes have temporarily withheld payments from the national church and a few clergy have quit their parishes or the denomination altogether.



But Griswold also said he saw hopeful signs in his talks with other Episcopalians that the church could remain unified.



"Yes, we are dealing with something that is difficult and problematic and the end is not in sight and the consequences are not fully revealed," he said. "However, on balance there are many faithful Episcopalians, priests and bishops going about the ministry of reconciliation with gusto."



Firebird: One Browser To Rule Them All.

Warduke
 


JP2: Is the end in sight?

Postby Gatito Grande » Tue Sep 30, 2003 1:47 pm

[Hey, Kittens. I almost could put these links on the Scary Religion Thread (for their breadth), but since my main concerns is the ramifications for queers (esp. RC and other Christian ones), I'm putting 'em here instead]



It looks like the jig might just about be up for Pope John Paul II. Whatever you think about his pontificate overall, his 25 years have been a disaster for LGBTs, starting w/ blatant disregard for AIDS (i.e. "Don't wear condoms, but we'll hold your hand when you die, Sinful Faggot") and continuing w/ the absolute Reign of Terror of Grand Inquisitor Ratzinger (e.g. his most recent proclamation: loving, queer parents, and not pedophile priests, "do violence to children"). :angry



Now, w/ his dying gasps, JP2 seems to be trying his damned-est to ensure a successor in his own image. I don't have a clue as to what's coming in the future w/ the RCC (as an Anglican---um, excuse me, Episcopalian---I don't really have to), but I know that the shadow that the leader of the billion+ Roman Catholics casts is wide (and recently, malevolent). My prayers are especially w/ Queer Catholics at this time, that they may be miraculously spared another "Persecutor w/ a Beanie." But to the extent that the Pope can mess w/ all of us (inc. our secular lives), I pray that the Spirit of Divine Wisdom fall upon Rome, that the RCC can *finally* acknowledge that LGBTs are made in the Image of God, too. :pray



Here are the links:



Today's news: my.aol.com/news/news_stor...7000113040



Background and context: www.economist.com/agenda/...id=2098164



GG My vocation as an ecumenist demands I work for Christian unity w/ all denominations. It'd be really nice if I didn't so often have to hold my nose in the process! :stink Out

Gatito Grande
 


Re: JP2: Is the end in sight?

Postby Warduke » Tue Oct 07, 2003 2:26 pm

Read this over at Yahoo...



Quote:
Conservative Episcopalians Meet on Gays



By RICHARD N. OSTLING, AP Religion Writer



DALLAS - Standing and singing together, 2,600 conservative Episcopalians began an emotional meeting Tuesday where they will discuss how to fight their denomination's liberal steps on homosexuality — with the possibility of a church split in the air.



The gathering started with a crowd of clergy and lay people packed into a hotel ballroom and belting out the old hymn "Stand Up, Stand Up, for Jesus, Ye Soldiers of the Cross."



The meeting, which concludes Thursday, was originally planned as a strategy session for a few hundred leaders. But it mushroomed as conservatives reacted against two actions at the Episcopal Church's midsummer convention: confirmation of a gay bishop living with his partner, and a vote to recognize — though not endorse or condemn — that bishops are allowing blessing ceremonies for same-sex couples.



The presence in Dallas of 45 of the church's 300 bishops underscored the gravity of the situation.



"We have two to three weeks to see the future of the Episcopal Church in America," said the Rev. David Roseberry, whose 4,000-member Christ Church in suburban Plano organized the event.



He referred not only to the Dallas meeting but, more importantly, an Oct. 15-16 emergency summit in London for leaders of the international Anglican Communion, of which the Episcopal Church is the U.S. branch.



That session involves the Anglicans' spiritual leader, Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams, and the 37 other heads of world Anglican branches. Presiding Bishop Frank Griswold of the Episcopal Church also is a member of that group and defends the decisions reached this summer in Minneapolis.



The American Anglican Council, sponsor of the Dallas meeting, says that U.S. conservatives are loyal to Anglican beliefs and the Christian tradition, so it's the Episcopal Church majority that has broken away into schism.



Griswold had tried to send four observers to the meeting but they were turned away. Bruce Mason, a council spokesman, said observers were not allowed at the meeting and registration was limited to those who signed the organization's statement of faith, called "A Place to Stand."



Founded in 1996, the AAC has emerged as the most important conservative Episcopal caucus. It reports a mailing list of 50,000 and support from about 500 congregations and 50 bishops. Spokesman Bruce Mason said "we probably represent a minority within the Episcopal Church but are part of the vast majority worldwide."



Jim Naughton, spokesman for the Diocese of Washington, D.C., and part of that liberal majority, estimates that, at most, 14 percent of the 2.3 million Episcopalians favor traditionalist protests.



Any Episcopal split would presumably be the biggest in the United States since 1976, when 100,000 members quit the Lutheran Church — Missouri Synod. The Episcopal Church also suffered 1970s walkouts, over women priests and revisions in liturgy, but they were minor by comparison.



The meeting's major action will be a petition to the London summit that's likely to ask the world leaders to provide special bishops to minister to conservatives within liberal U.S. dioceses, instead of their regular bishops.



The petition could also repeat an idea approved by recent conventions of the Fort Worth and Pittsburgh Dioceses, asking the London summit to declare the traditionalists to be the authentic U.S. branch of Anglicanism, in effect suspending or expelling the Episcopal Church.



Whatever emerges, "we need a safe place to be, safe from theological and spiritual harassment, harassment to careers, and danger to our property," said Canon David C. Anderson of Stone Mountain, Ga., AAC president.



He said AAC leaders will be holding a follow-up meeting sometime after the London summit.



A split is implied in such program topics here as "Talking Points for Answering Difficult Questions" and the legalistic "Constitutions, Canons, Pensions, Properties and Jurisdictions."



Who gets church property in a split could be among the toughest problems discussed in Dallas. The most radical position came from the Pittsburgh diocesan convention: a declaration that buildings now belong to each congregation, denying the national denomination's claim to control all property under 1979 legislation.



Said Roseberry: "We are prepared, and preparing, for what God is going to do next."



Firebird: One Browser To Rule Them All.

Warduke
 


Brace yourselves, GG is in Rant-Mode

Postby Gatito Grande » Tue Oct 07, 2003 11:02 pm

Since I've just kvetched about the election of the Gropinator in California, I'll continue my bad mood here: the meeting of Anglican 'phobes in Plano is yet another example of the (ironically) bad faith of conservatives. Don't like an election result 'cuz you're on the losing side? Just spend money, throw your petulant weight around, and change the rules midstream.



These yahoos have the nerve to go around booh-hooing about how the '03 General Convention just passed "disenfranchised" them. How the h*ll do you figure that? They're more than welcome to come back at the next GC in '06 to undo all that's just been done---certainly, that's what we LGBT/Allied Episcopalians have done for years. Why is democracy Godly only when conservatives win and liberals lose?



Next up in the UK: 500 years after the Anglican Church broke w/ Rome over Papal authoritarianism, the mostly self-anointed "primates" (a title which, in this case, is an insult to apes) are going to try foist a Anglican Pope on us (or at least, they're signing up to be the Anglican Curia). They'll undo the riches of Anglican "No Need to Check Your Brain at the Church Door" Theology, for the sole purpose of puttin' them faggot-lovin' American Episcopalians (and Canadian Anglicans) in their excommunicated place. In so doing, they (the 'phobic "primates") are determined to not only declare that the Damned Queers aren't made in God's Image, but that apparently no one else is either . . . except themselves. Because only they will be permitted to think for themselves (and they themselves decline that right), while the rest of us are supposed to be mindless Fundies, doing/saying/believing whatever "Our Betters" tell us.



:pride :rage HEAVENS, NO!!! :rage :pride



Well exsqueeze me, but ECUSA (that's us faggot-lovin' American Episcopalians) is NOT going "into that good night." Despite their excommunicatory threats---and despite all too-many religious apologists these days, who proclaim the pew-filling "virtues" of an exclusive/excluding religion---Episcopalians are going to faithfully maintain the Church Christ founded just peachy w/o 'em. Jesus welcomed all comers, and so will we :pray . . . and if the 'phobes wanna take their marbles and go home, that's their loss. :spin



GG ECUSA will also keep reaching out to the *people* of these (largely) Third World churches, many of whom have little or no say in the wacked-out priorities of their bishops (Ever heard of AIDS, morons? You just decry "Western immorality" as the disease spreads on, and on, and on . . . :angry ). Out



I really should quit ranting: as +Gene Robinson says, "We'll all find out who's right when we get to Heaven!" :angel



. . . and on that happier note: Look who's Gay Now! :pride (I know it comes as a great shock to y'all :p )



****************************************************************************************************************

ETA: The following article is both a good (short) description (down at the bottom) of what's happening this week in the UK. Just as important, however, is the analysis (the body of the article) of just why and how this is happening.



Quote:
US millionaire bankrolls crusade against gay Anglican priests



America's religious right draws a line in the sand as Anglican primates meet in London



Jamie Doward

Sunday October 12, 2003

The Observer



Howard F. Ahmanson Jr does not like publicity. The fiftysomething multimillionaire, who lives in Newport Beach, California, is something of a recluse.



Calls to Ahmanson's multitude of companies and foundations requesting an interview go unreturned. Organisations which enjoy his largesse decline to talk about their benefactor.



What is known is that in the 1990s Ahmanson, whose family made a fortune in banking, subsidised a number of controversial right-wing causes. These include a magazine called the Chalcedon Report , which carried an article calling for gays to be stoned; a think-tank called the Claremont Institute which promoted a video in which Charlton Heston praises 'the God-fearing Caucasian middle class'; and a scientific body which rejects the theory of evolution.



Now Ahmanson has a new crusade, whose repercussions will be felt far beyond the United States. He is using his cash to stir up the most divisive row facing the Anglican Church, one that threatens to rip it apart when its leaders meet in London this week.



At its heart is the Church's stance on homosexuality, an issue that divides liberal and conservative. Somewhere in the middle is the Anglican Communion's spiritual leader, the Archbishop of Canterbury, Rowan Williams. Initial estimates suggest that the Communion's leaders are split down the middle, with some 20 of the 38 opposing two separate events that have occurred in North America.



The first was the decision to appoint the openly gay Canon Gene Robinson as Bishop of New Hampshire. The second was the decision by the diocese of New Westminster in Canada to bless same-sex unions.



The conservative wing of the 70 million-strong Anglican Communion were outraged, arguing that the two events ran contrary to the teachings of the Bible and the Communion's position on homosexuality agreed at the Lambeth Conference in 1998 - while the Church should welcome practising homosexuals into its congregations, there could be no ordination.



Leading the backlash is the American Anglican Council (AAC) based in Washington. Until recently the AAC's chief executive officer, David C. Anderson, ran St James Church in Newport Beach, California, where Ahmanson is often to be found in the congregation. The AAC's vice-president, Bruce Chapman, is president of the Discovery Institute, on whose board Ahmanson sits and which publishes research insisting Darwin was wrong.



AAC stalwart James M. Stanton, Bishop of Dallas, admits that Ahmanson gives $200,000 a year, although many observers believe it is considerably more. An internal memo from the vice-president makes fascinating reading. 'Fundraising is a critical topic ... But that topic itself is going to be affected directly by whether we have a clear, compelling forward strategy. I know that the Ahmansons are only going to be available to us if we have such a strategy and I think it would be wise to involve them directly in setting it as the options clarify.'



The AAC's influence is bolstered by its close links to another right-wing religious organisation, the Institute on Religion and Democracy (IRD), which operates out of the same Washington office as the AAC, and on whose board Ahmanson's wife, Roberta, sits.



Between 1997 and 2002, the IRD, set up during the Cold War to fight the spread of communism, spent at least $2.5 million to monitor and resist the liberalisation of America's churches.



Much of the IRD's money comes from the conservative philanthropist Richard Scaife, heir to a banking and oil fortune and owner of the Greensburgh Tribune Review, the Pittsburgh newspaper that became the bane of President Bill Clinton's life, with a series of allegations surrounding the Whitewater affair.



Now the two organisations are on the warpath. Last week they assembled their troops for a giant rally in Dallas in anticipation of this week's meeting of Anglican leaders in London. The chief target was the liberal baby boomer generation of the Sixties whose religious leaders were accused of betraying successive generations.



At the end the conservatives had drawn a line in the sand. A carefully worded series of resolutions calls on the Primates of the Anglican Communion to discipline those bishops in the Episcopal Church 'who have departed from biblical faith and order' and 'guide the realignment of Anglicanism in North America'.



The sentiment is repeated to differing degrees around the world. Archbishop Peter Akinola, leader of the 17.5 million-strong Anglican Church in Nigeria, threatened to split from the Communion over the appointment of the openly gay but celibate Canon Jeffrey John as Bishop of Reading earlier this year. Amid the furore created by the conservatives, John stood down, prompting dismay among liberals.



The issue has now become as much about geography as sexuality. Canon Chris Sugden of the UK's Anglican Mainstream movement, which shares the AAC's concerns over homosexual clergy, said: 'The average Anglican comes from a poor culture, is under 30 and is black. For them the teachings of the Christian faith on issues such as the importance of the family have been a major source of help.



'Now they find some Christians in Western society are saying, "in our culture there's pressure such that we have to modify what the Church has understood for 2,000 years. If that will cause you trouble, we're sorry".'



To outsiders, the fact that the row within the Anglican Communion is being driven by tough-talking American conservatives with close links to ultra-right-wing millionaires might look unseemly. But those sympathetic to some of the AAC's opinions say this does not mean its views should be dismissed.



'These are Americans and it's the nature of their culture. The fact an organisation is bankrolled by wealthy individuals is not unique to the AAC or any other interest group. It's a case of a lot of pots and not many clean kettles,' said Dr Philip Giddings, one of those who successfully opposed the appointment of Canon John and who has friends within the AAC.



'I would expect to see a reaffirmation of the position of the Lambeth conference. That has been the overwhelming view of Anglicans. It would take unique circumstances for the Primates not to reaffirm it,' Giddings said.



This would represent a body blow to the liberal wing of the Communion and to many Anglicans in the UK, who are deeply dismayed at the signals this will send to wider society.



Richard Kirker, general-secretary of the Lesbian and Gay Christian Movement, said: 'Is it just coincidence that the Churches that are most resistant to the full inclusion of lesbian and gay people are also the least open and democratic?'



Not to mention wealthy.



*****



One faith, two wings



What is happening this week?

The Archbishop of Canterbury has called an emergency meeting of the Anglican Communion, the 70 million-strong global network of Anglican Churches.



Why?

The Community is at war over the love that dare not speak its name in many corners of the global Church.



So who's upset?

Conservatives say ecclesiastical law has been breached. Liberals say modernise or the Church will lose followers. With both sides at each other's throats, Rowan Williams was left with little choice but to call an emergency meeting of Church leaders.



Can't they agree to disagree?

No. This is about much more than homosexuality; it is a battle for the whole direction of the Anglican Communion. The conservatives have huge support in the developing world. The liberals tend to be in the developed world and are a much looser network of groups. There is little room for consensus.



Does the row matter to non-Anglicans?

Many would argue that the Church continues to shape society's mind. There is also the Queen, who is Supreme Head of the Church.




observer.guardian.co.uk/u...98,00.html







Edited by: Gatito Grande at: 10/13/03 9:34 pm
Gatito Grande
 


Oh, the pain, the pain: Anglican primates throw a pity-party

Postby Gatito Grande » Thu Oct 16, 2003 12:10 pm

[Sorry to consecutively post, but I can only add so much to my previous one. I'll probably be "ETA"ing to this one, too!]



Well, "the primates have spoken," by consensus---so apparently ECUSA Presiding Bishop Frank Griswold signed onto this steaming pile of cr*p. But what it means, I can't say as yet. I have no reason to think that Gene Robinson's consecration will not proceed as planned (by the grace of God! :pride ) on November 2---but I'll be on pins and needles till it happens.



For those who choose to read the following, brace yourselves for the "poor homophobe me" whining (I'll have a couple of things to comment on afterward).



Quote:
A Statement by the Primates of the Anglican Communion meeting in Lambeth Palace

October 15th and 16th, 2003.



031016-1

10/16/2003

[Episcopal News Service] The Primates of the Anglican Communion and the Moderators of the United Churches, meeting together at Lambeth Palace on the 15th and 16th October, 2003, wish to express our gratitude to the Archbishop of Canterbury, Dr Rowan Williams, for calling us together in response to recent events in the Diocese of New Westminster, Canada, and the Episcopal Church (USA), and welcoming us into his home so that we might take counsel together, and to seek to discern, in an atmosphere of common prayer and worship, the will and guidance of the Holy Spirit for the common life of the thirty-eight provinces which constitute our Communion.

At a time of tension, we have struggled at great cost with the issues before us, but have also been renewed and strengthened in our Communion with one another through our worship and study of the Bible. This has led us into a deeper commitment to work together, and we affirm our pride in the Anglican inheritance of faith and order and our firm desire to remain part of a Communion, where what we hold in common is much greater than that which divides us in proclaiming Good News to the world.



At this time we feel the profound pain and uncertainty shared by others about our Christian discipleship in the light of controversial decisions by the Diocese of New Westminster to authorise a Public Rite of Blessing for those in committed same sex relationships, and by the 74th General Convention of the Episcopal Church (USA) to confirm the election of a priest in a committed same sex relationship to the office and work of a Bishop.



These actions threaten the unity of our own Communion as well as our relationships with other parts of Christ's Church, our mission and witness, and our relations with other faiths, in a world already confused in areas of sexuality, morality and theology, and polarise Christian opinion.



As Primates of our Communion seeking to exercise the "enhanced responsibility" entrusted to us by successive Lambeth Conferences, we re-affirm our common understanding of the centrality and authority of Scripture in determining the basis of our faith. Whilst we acknowledge a legitimate diversity of interpretation that arises in the Church, this diversity does not mean that some of us take the authority of Scripture more lightly than others. Nevertheless, each province needs to be aware of the possible effects of its interpretation of Scripture on the life of other provinces in the Communion. We commit ourselves afresh to mutual respect whilst seeking from the Lord a correct discernment of how God's Word speaks to us in our contemporary world.



We also re-affirm the resolutions made by the bishops of the Anglican Communion gathered at the Lambeth Conference in 1998 on issues of human sexuality as having moral force and commanding the respect of the Communion as its present position on these issues. We commend the report of that Conference in its entirety to all members of the Anglican Communion, valuing especially its emphasis on the need "to listen to the experience of homosexual persons, and ... to assure them that they are loved by God and that all baptised, believing and faithful persons, regardless of sexual orientation, are full members of the Body of Christ"; and its acknowledgement of the need for ongoing study on questions of human sexuality.



Therefore, as a body we deeply regret the actions of the Diocese of New Westminster and the Episcopal Church (USA) which appear to a number of provinces to have short-circuited that process, and could be perceived to alter unilaterally the teaching of the Anglican Communion on this issue. They do not. Whilst we recognise the juridical autonomy of each province in our Communion, the mutual interdependence of the provinces means that none has authority unilaterally to substitute an alternative teaching as if it were the teaching of the entire Anglican Communion.



To this extent, therefore, we must make clear that recent actions in New Westminster and in the Episcopal Church (USA) do not express the mind of our Communion as a whole, and these decisions jeopardise our sacramental fellowship with each other. We have a particular concern for those who in all conscience feel bound to dissent from the teaching and practice of their province in such matters. Whilst we reaffirm the teaching of successive Lambeth Conferences that bishops must respect the autonomy and territorial integrity of dioceses and provinces other than their own, we call on the provinces concerned to make adequate provision for episcopal oversight of dissenting minorities within their own area of pastoral care in consultation with the Archbishop of Canterbury on behalf of the Primates.



The Presiding Bishop of the Episcopal Church (USA) has explained to us the constitutional framework within which the election and confirmation of a new bishop in the Episcopal Church (USA) takes place. As Primates, it is not for us to pass judgement on the constitutional processes of another province. We recognise the sensitive balance between provincial autonomy and the expression of critical opinion by others on the internal actions of a province. Nevertheless, many Primates have pointed to the grave difficulties that this election has raised and will continue to raise. In most of our provinces the election of Canon Gene Robinson would not have been possible since his chosen lifestyle would give rise to a canonical impediment to his consecration as a bishop.



If his consecration proceeds, we recognise that we have reached a crucial and critical point in the life of the Anglican Communion and we have had to conclude that the future of the Communion itself will be put in jeopardy. In this case, the ministry of this one bishop will not be recognised by most of the Anglican world, and many provinces are likely to consider themselves to be out of Communion with the Episcopal Church (USA). This will tear the fabric of our Communion at its deepest level, and may lead to further division on this and further issues as provinces have to decide in consequence whether they can remain in communion with provinces that choose not to break communion with the Episcopal Church (USA).



Similar considerations apply to the situation pertaining in the Diocese of New Westminster.



We have noted that the Lambeth Conference 1998 requested the Archbishop of Canterbury to establish a commission to consider his own role in maintaining communion within and between provinces when grave difficulties arise[1]. We ask him now to establish such a commission, but that its remit be extended to include urgent and deep theological and legal reflection on the way in which the dangers we have identified at this meeting will have to be addressed. We request that such a commission complete its work, at least in relation to the issues raised at this meeting, within twelve months.



We urge our provinces not to act precipitately on these wider questions, but take time to share in this process of reflection and to consider their own constitutional requirements as individual provinces face up to potential realignments.



Questions of the parity of our canon law, and the nature of the relationship between the laws of our provinces with one another have also been raised. We encourage the Network of Legal Advisers established by the Anglican Consultative Council, meeting in Hong Kong in 2002, to bring to completion the work which they have already begun on this question.



It is clear that recent controversies have opened debates within the life of our Communion which will not be resolved until there has been a lengthy process of prayer, reflection and substantial work in and alongside the Commission which we have recommended. We pray that God will equip our Communion to be equal to the task and challenges which lie before it.



"Now I appeal to the elders of your community, as a fellow elder and a witness to Christ's sufferings, and as one who has shared in the glory to be revealed: look after the flock of God whose shepherd you are." (1 Peter 5.1,2a)



[1] In view of the very grave difficulties encountered in the internal affairs of some provinces of the Communion, [this conference] invites the Archbishop of Canterbury to appoint a commission to make recommendations to the Primates and the Anglican Consultative Council, as to the exceptional circumstances and conditions under which, and the means by which, it would be appropriate for him to exercise an extraordinary ministry of episcope (pastoral oversight), support and reconciliation with regard to the internal affairs of a province other than his own for the sake of maintaining communion with the said province and between the said province and the rest of the Anglican Communion. (IV.13.b)




gc2003.episcopalchurch.or...=undefined



The thing that really stands out (beyond the self-righteousness) is the outrageous hypocrisy of this statement:

Quote:
We commend the report of that Conference in its entirety to all members of the Anglican Communion, valuing especially its emphasis on the need "to listen to the experience of homosexual persons, and ... to assure them that they are loved by God and that all baptised, believing and faithful persons, regardless of sexual orientation, are full members of the Body of Christ"; and its acknowledgement of the need for ongoing study on questions of human sexuality.



Therefore, as a body we deeply regret the actions of the Diocese of New Westminster and the Episcopal Church (USA) which appear to a number of provinces to have short-circuited that process




WTF??? :rage It wasn't ECUSA that "short-circuited that process," it was those churches that absolutely refused to "listen to the experience of homosexual persons", or do anything either than treat them (and the churches, like ECUSA, that support them) like sh*t. :angry



I really love how the "primates" (insert ape picture here) revealed their true mentality, when they say that there may be (i.e., they may instigate) "further division on this and further issues as provinces have to decide in consequence whether they can remain in communion with provinces that choose not to break communion with the Episcopal Church (USA)." For self-righteous Puritans like themselves, you can never be too careful: "You're w/ us or agin' us!"



Christ-like? Hardly! :mad



Oh well, let 'em excommunicate us. It's no skin off ECUSA's nose: our place at Christ's table is assured by a Higher Authority, thank you very much.



GG But will they, I wonder, excommunicate ECUSA's money, which has paid for a full *third* of the entire Communion's expenses??? :miff Out



ETA: Re-reading, and already getting angrier :mad : I can't believe that Frank Griswold or any other of the non-foaming-at-the-mouth primates would consent to a statement that included "In most of our provinces the election of Canon Gene Robinson would not have been possible since his chosen lifestyle would give rise to a canonical impediment to his consecration as a bishop."



"Chosen lifestyle" my *ss! :rage





Edited by: Gatito Grande at: 10/16/03 11:18 am
Gatito Grande
 


Re: The Scarier "Religion & Homosexuality" Thr

Postby thrilledbymaclay » Fri Oct 17, 2003 4:04 am

Um, I'm really sorry if this has been mentioned! I just wanted to add and commend The United Church of Canada... It's my church, so of course I'm kinda bragging, but I think it's so important to lift up churches that have been longstanding supporters of gay rights as human rights, they are supporters of and actually perform queer marriages without a bunch of hoo-haa (anymore, there used to be, but by 2000 it was made clear at the 37th General Council and as a sidenote, there were never any gender distinctions in their documentation of and policy on marriage) and the issue of gay clergy isn't so much an issue anymore. LOL, so passe.



I mean, I'm from the Prairies (Saskatchewan), where cow-tipping actually *does* occur, mullets are real, country music rules, trucker hats were worn way before they were trendy by everyone's Grandpa, and my Grandma's minister is a lesbian. When she began at this church, this particular minister felt more secure letting the congregation decide if they felt comfortable having a gay person as their minister, and in a village of like 400 elderly people, maybe four contested it. I think it reflects what these people have been taught by this particular church over the years, and I love a values system wherein the generation that is supposed to be the most opposed to gays and lesbians as people just go ahead and support them openly. So, yay, go United Church!



United Church of Canada

thrilledbymaclay
 


Re: Primates' statement

Postby MemsMapper » Fri Oct 17, 2003 9:22 pm

I just wanted to pass along my thoughts on the Primates' statement from Lambeth. My interpretation of the very wordy text, obviously written by a committee, is that it basically says nothing new. As far as I can tell, it merely acknowledges that there are differing points of view on this issue, and the Archbishop of Canterbury has been requested to set up a committee to study it. However, I think it's ambiguous enough that it can be interpreted as supporting whoever wants to use it, a typical sitting on the fence kind of statement.



For example, I heard a piece on it on the CBC show "The Current" (radio news show) this morning. They spoke with the leader of the conservative Episcopalians in the US (David something?) and he interpreted it as a strong statement that Gene Robinson should not be consecrated as bishop, and he got in a few digs at Frank Griswold. Then, the next piece was a tape of a reporter asking Micheal Peers (Canadian Anglican Primate) some questions about the statement. My impression was that he had no intention of changing anything that was going on in the Anglican church in Canada. The third piece (this all took up about 25 minutes of programming) was a panel of a Canadian theologian (ordained female), an American (not sure what his significance was) and a Brit who is writing a book on the whole issue. Frankly, I think the theologian put it most succintly (and I think the same point has been made earlier in this thread) when she said that it's not the dioceses of New West or New Hampshire that are threatening schism, it's the others who are refusing to come to the common table who are doing that.



Finally, I spoke with my Mom about all of this. She has done a lot of work for the Anglican church in Canada, is a former Prolecutor of the church, and is a friend of Micheal Peers. Her issues with the whole thing are how people are interfering in the inner workings of other provinces within the world Anglican communion, not with gays and lesbians. Archbishop Williams is not the pope. He does not have any control over how things are run in the Anglican provinces in the world (except the UK I guess). He cannot "excommunicate" anyone. The communion exists because people from churches with a common origin wish to share with each other. There are no formal rules for entrance. There is no method to kick someone out.



Mom was reading me some of the emails from various church organizations that she's gotten. I think I liked the one best that quoted Frank Griswold (I think, and here I'm loosely paraphrasing) "after many years we'll finally be ministering to the gays and lesbians that we've been ignoring". I get the impression he'll be at Gene Robinson's consecration with bells on. And as Mom says (gotta love moms sometimes) she's been hearing that the church wouldn't last another 5 years since the early 1960s. New prayer books, ordination of women... but it's still here, perhaps changed, but existing. And I think it will survive this, maybe in parts though. :-) Change happens, and the issue of homosexuality in the church is stepping towards inclusion, and will get there eventually, no matter how many try to drag it back to exclusion.



Okay, perhaps not too coherent, but my 2 cents.



Mems

MemsMapper
 


Re: Primates' statement

Postby Gatito Grande » Fri Oct 17, 2003 11:04 pm

Thanks, Mems, for the words of encouragement. I've calmed down considerably in 36 hours, w/ the commentary from sources I trust, that this statement really just restates the obvious and, as such, really isn't all that bad.



While you hear some "traditionalists" (i.e. 'phobic yahoos) like David Anderson (Dir. of the chief group of U.S. whiners, the American Anglican Council) declaring themselves satisfied w/ the statement, an equal number (particularly amongst themselves, apparently) are kvetching that it isn't nearly hardline enough---which, through the wisdom of schadenfreude, means that the statement is OK. :D



Gene Robinson will be consecrated November 2; I don't think there's any doubt at all on that. Frank Griswold said he "expected" to be there, and I'll take him at his word (despite my unhappiness that he seemed to be intentionally ambiguous on this point at the Joint Primate press conference). At that point, probably a bunch of Anglican provinces will declare themselves out of communion w/ 1) Gene Robinson---well, duh! But they're aren't functionally in communion w/ any women bishops either, so who cares? 2) likely ECUSA as a whole (excepting the yahoos, like execrable Robert Duncan of Pittsburgh. To think that I once lived in the diocese immediately adjacent to his! :stink ) and finally 3) possibly the provinces (national churches) which do not break communion w/ ECUSA (and the Ang. Church of Canada). (Will the most Neaderthal bishops break communion w/ those who do not break communion w/ those who do not break communion w/ ECUSA? The mindset of the self-righteous is endlessly schismatic! :rolleyes ).



Having said all this, what the ramifications are are far from clear. This year-long study commission organized by ABC Williams will have something to say, obviously, before ECUSA could possibly be banned from the Anglican Consultative Council (the conciliar body "coordinating"---non-bindingly, of course---the Communion between the once-a-decade Lambeth Conferences, on the '8s', of all the bishops). After that year, I still don't think that will happen. I think U.S. bishops will be at Lambeth in 2008, w/ some bishops choosing to walk out on others. (Unless the traditionalists try to move "Lambeth" to, say, Nigeria, at which point the Americans could conceivably be barred. But there will still be bishops from around the world---like the fabulous Africans Senyonjo, Ndungane, Makhulu and of course, Desmond Tutu (saints among us :angel )---who will welcome ECUSA bishops (including Gene Robinson).



GG We'll know much more after November 2: for New Hampshire, the Episcopal Church, and LGBT Christians, Oh Happy Day! :pride Out



This site is a great resource, and place to talk about the above issues (you may even notice a poster w/ a familiar handle! :p ) : everyvoice.net/



****************************************************************************************************

ETA: I just wanted to quote and comment on the following excerpt from this latest post-Primate Conclave statement of PB Frank Griswold:



Quote:
The effects for our Anglican brothers and sisters of our action taken at General Convention giving consent to the ordination and consecration of the bishop coadjutor-elect of New Hampshire were described in very stark terms. Many spoke about ridicule they had received within their provinces and the threat to their ability to proclaim the gospel, particularly in places where other religions are dominant.




[See the following site for the entire statement: gc2003.episcopalchurch.or...=undefined ]



I don't want to belittle the threats and harsh conditions faced by Christians (esp. Anglicans) in some countries. I can't imagine what it's like to be a Christian in Pakistan, where a terrorist (presumably Muslim) through a grenade into a church on Easter Sunday. Or Nigeria, where a third of the country is under sharia, complete w/ stoning for (*women* caught in) adultery. :mad



At the same time, two wrongs still do not make a right. LGBTs cannot and should not be held responsible for this kind of oppression.



And as for "ridicule"? I've got two things to say. 1) Christians are exhorted "Do not be ashamed of the Gospel" (um, the citation escapes me. Hey, we Anglicans aren't known for our Bible-memorization!). Since I would emphatically state that LGBT equality in the Church is an essential part of the Gospel, then the commandment applies. 2) At the same time, Christians follow a Master who was "despised and rejected" by his peers and overlords. We are supposed to expect persecution, and even welcome it "for righteousness' sake." Once again, the struggle for LGBT equality in the Church (among other places!) is most certainly "righteousness"!



For those of us sitting (relatively) safely in "the West" (I hate that phrase! How 'bout "Rich European and North American countries"?), we should do what we can to fight the good fight on behalf of our beleaguered Christian brothers and sisters in the Two-Thirds World. Maybe their oppressors should feel a little pressure from American wallets (not bombs; the U.S. has done far too much of that as it is)? To say nothing of the fact that, while we're spreading global capitalism everywhere, how 'bout spreading a little religious liberty while we're at it?



ECUSA, I believe, stands more than willing to work w/ Anglicans in "the Global South" (to use another stock phrase). However, they cannot expect that help to come by way of replicating their oppression here, against LGBTs. It ain't fair, it ain't right . . . and it ain't gonna happen. :pride

Edited by: Gatito Grande at: 10/18/03 12:51 am
Gatito Grande
 


NY Times Editorial

Postby Diebrock » Sun Oct 19, 2003 11:39 am

www.nytimes.com/

Quote:
Losing a Church, Keeping the Faith

By ANDREW SULLIVAN

Published: October 19, 2003



Last week, something quite banal happened at St. Benedict's Church in the Bronx. A gay couple were told they could no longer sing in the choir. Their sin was to have gotten a civil marriage license in Canada. One man had sung in the choir for 32 years; the other had joined the church 25 years ago. Both had received certificates from the church commending them for "noteworthy participation." But their marriage had gained publicity; it was even announced in The New York Times. This "scandal" led to their expulsion. The archbishop's spokesman explained that the priest had "an obligation" to exclude them.



In the grand scheme of things, this is a very small event. But it is a vivid example of why this last year has made the once difficult lives of gay Catholics close to impossible. The church has gone beyond its doctrinal opposition to emotional or sexual relationships between gay men and lesbians to an outspoken and increasingly shrill campaign against them. Gay relationships were described by the Vatican earlier this year as "evil." Gay couples who bring up children were described as committing the equivalent of "violence" against their own offspring. Gay men are being deterred from applying to seminaries and may soon be declared unfit for the priesthood, even though they commit to celibacy. The American Catholic church has endorsed a constitutional amendment that would strip gay couples of any civil benefits of any kind in the United States.



For the first time in my own life, I find myself unable to go to Mass. During the most heated bouts of rhetoric coming from the Vatican this summer, I felt tears of grief and anger welling up where once I had been able to contain them. Faith beyond resentment began to seem unreachable.



For some, the answer is as easy as it always has been. Leave, they say. The gay world looks at gay Catholics with a mixture of contempt and pity. The Catholic world looks at us as if we want to destroy an institution we simply want to belong to. So why not leave? In some ways, I suppose, I have. What was for almost 40 years a weekly church habit dried up this past year to close to nothing. Every time I walked into a church or close to one, the anger and hurt overwhelmed me. It was as if a dam of intellectual resistance to emotional distress finally burst.



But there was no comfort in this, no relief, no resolution. There is no ultimate meaning for me outside the Gospels, however hard I try to imagine it; no true solace but the Eucharist; no divine love outside of Christ and the church he guides. In that sense, I have not left the church because I cannot leave the church, no more than I can leave my family. Like many other gay Catholics, I love this church; for me, there is and never will be any other. But I realize I cannot participate in it any longer either. It would be an act of dishonesty to enable an institution that is now a major force for the obliteration of gay lives and loves; that covered up for so long the sexual abuse of children but uses the word "evil" for two gay people wanting to commit to each other for life.



I know what I am inside. I do not believe that my orientation is on a par with others' lapses into lust when they also have an option for sexual and emotional life that is blessed and celebrated by the church. I do not believe I am intrinsically sick or disordered, as the hierarchy teaches, although I am a sinner in many, many ways. I do not believe that the gift of human sexuality is always and everywhere evil outside of procreation. (Many heterosexual Catholics, of course, agree with me, but they can hide and pass in ways that gay Catholics cannot.) I believe that denying gay people any outlet for their deepest emotional needs is wrong. I think it slowly destroys people, hollows them out, alienates them finally from their very selves.



But I must also finally concede that this will not change as a matter of doctrine. That doctrine — never elaborated by Jesus — was constructed when gay people as we understand them today were not known to exist; but its authority will not change just because gay people now have the courage to explain who they are and how they feel. In fact, it seems as if the emergence of gay people into the light of the world has only intensified the church's resistance. That shift in the last few years from passive silence to active hostility is what makes the Vatican's current stance so distressing. Terrified of their own knowledge of the wide presence of closeted gay men in the priesthood, concerned that the sexual doctrines required of heterosexuals are under threat, the hierarchy has decided to draw the line at homosexuals. We have become the unwilling instruments of their need to reassert control.



In an appeal to the growing fundamentalism of the developing world, this is a shrewd strategy. In the global context, gays are easily expendable. But it is also a strikingly inhumane one. The current pope is obviously a deep and holy man; but that makes his hostility even more painful. He will send emissaries to terrorists, he will meet with a man who tried to assassinate him. But he has not and will not meet with openly gay Catholics. They are, to him, beneath dialogue. His message is unmistakable. Gay people are the last of the untouchables. We can exist in the church only by silence, by bearing false witness to who we are.



I was once more hopeful. I saw within the church's doctrines room for a humane view of homosexuality, a genuinely Catholic approach to including all nonprocreative people — the old, the infertile, the gay — in God's church. But I can see now that the dialogue is finally shutting down.



Perhaps a new pope will change things. But the odds are that hostility will get even worse. I revere those who can keep up the struggle within the channels of the church. I respect those who have left. But I am somewhere in between now.



There are moments in a spiritual life when the heart simply breaks. Some time in the last year, mine did. I can only pray that in some distant future, some other gay people not yet born will be able to come back to the church, to sing in the choir, and know that the only true scandal in the world is the scandal of God's love for his creation, all of it, all of us, in a church that may one day, finally, become home to us all.



Andrew Sullivan is a senior editor at The New Republic




_________________

How can you kill people who killed people, to show that killing people is wrong?

I've kissed her best friend. I've reached into her best friend's pocket and fished around for keys. And I gave her best friend my number. I must be doing something totally, totally wrong... - TBSOL by Dreams

Edited by: Diebrock at: 10/19/03 10:41 am
Diebrock
 


A Tale of Two Churches

Postby Gatito Grande » Mon Oct 20, 2003 1:20 pm

Thanks for posting this, Diebrock.



Quote:
[The Pope] will send emissaries to terrorists, he will meet with a man who tried to assassinate him. But he has not and will not meet with openly gay Catholics. They are, to him, beneath dialogue.




That really says it all, doesn't it? :angry



It would be grossly self-serving for me to make a pitch for my church now, to Andrew Sullivan and other queer RCs. So I'll let that respected authority, St. Elsewhere, do it for me: Episcopal girl brings her RC boyfriend home w/ her for Christmas. Father proposes they all go to Midnight Mass at their local church. Boyfriend's response: "Episcopal? Cool! All of the glory and none of the guilt!" :lol







Oh, and here's a response from Gene to the AC attacks on him:



Quote:
Gay Episcopal bishop-elect responds to Anglican schism warning



ANNE SAUNDERS, Associated Press Writer Sunday, October 19, 2003

(10-19) 23:33 PDT MANCHESTER, N.H. (AP) --



The Rev. V. Gene Robinson, the Episcopal Church's first openly gay bishop-elect, told parishioners his election is a sign of a changing church, one that will continue even if he resigns.



"If I step down, do you really think other qualified gays and lesbians wouldn't be elected?" he asked about 40 people during a religious education meeting Sunday at Grace Church. "My standing down isn't going to make it all go away."



His comment was prompted by a suggestion from a parishioner that Robinson reconsider accepting the bishop's role because of the turmoil it has caused and the threat it poses to the international church.



"I personally think it's not worth losing the family," Paul Apple, of Mont Vernon said.



Outraged conservatives have threatened to divide the Episcopal Church in the United States and the worldwide Anglican Communion of which it is part.



"I don't want anyone to leave the church, and I don't like being thought of as the reason they leave the church," said Robinson, 56.



But he said the vigorous and sometimes bitter church debate over homosexuality would continue whether or not he left the stage.



"It's not all going to go back to being nice and pretty again. It's going to be messy for a while," he said. "This is not our church to win or lose. It's God's church."



Robinson predicted the church ultimately will survive the turmoil.



"I've been here an hour and look! The roof's still on. I think it will calm down when people see not a lot has changed," he said.



But Apple's question prompted Robinson to talk about his struggles to discern God's will.



"I agonize about this all the time. This is one of the hardest things I'll ever do," Robinson said. "I do have this sense I'm supposed to go forward, and I do feel that's coming from God and not my own ego. But I don't know."



"If I'm wrong, God help me -- and God will help me," he said.



Robinson was elected by New Hampshire clergy and parishioners in June and confirmed by the national Episcopal Church in August. He is scheduled to be consecrated as bishop of New Hampshire in two weeks.



At an emergency meeting in London last week, Anglican leaders warned that if Robinson is consecrated, "the future of the Communion itself will be put in jeopardy." However, they acknowledged that each province has the right to choose its own leaders.



Robinson remained optimistic, saying the church has weathered similar crises in the past. Much of the Anglican Communion still does not recognize the ordination of women, he said, and yet the Communion holds together, he said.



Asked by one parishioner to explain what's behind the anger over his election, Robinson said he believed it was a sign that patriarchy is ending in the church as women, people of color and gays and lesbians are more fully included.



Conservative Episcopalians in the United States have said they plan to form an independent network of churches opposed to Robinson's elevation and the blessing of same-sex unions in some dioceses.



Anglican leaders, representing 77 million members worldwide, have called homosexuality "contrary to Scripture." Robinson and his supporters say that is outweighed by the Scripture's call for love and acceptance of all.



Scripture does not address faithful, committed relationships between members of the same sex, Robinson said. The concept didn't exist back then. What it does condemn is promiscuity and abusive relationships, he said.



Robinson has lived openly for years with partner Mark Andrew, who was applauded by the congregation when he was introduced Sunday. Robinson is widely known and admired in the state, where he has been assistant to the retiring bishop for years.



At the end of a second question and answer session Sunday, Robinson received a standing ovation from parishioners.




www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/ar...DT0466.DTL



GG The ancient Hebrews had a word for what will happen on November 2: Jubilee, setting the captives free! :pride Out









Gatito Grande
 


HALLELUJAH!!!

Postby Gatito Grande » Sun Nov 02, 2003 10:42 pm

:pride :applause :banana :pray :happycry :party :dance :pride :applause :banana :pray :happycry :party :dance :pride :applause :banana :pray :happycry :party :dance :pride :applause :banana :pray :happycry :party :dance :pride :applause :banana :pride



Quote:
Gay bishop consecrated in US



Gene Robinson has been consecrated the first openly gay Anglican bishop at a ceremony in the American state of New Hampshire.



But the election of Bishop Robinson - who has lived with his male partner for 15 years - threatens to create a permanent schism within the US Episcopal Church and in the worldwide Anglican communion.



Three church members were given the opportunity to voice their objections during the ceremony and one woman said the consecration would not only rupture the Anglican community but, "break God's heart".



Within minutes of the service ending, the Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams - spiritual head of the Anglican Church - said the divisions arising in the global Anglican Communion following the consecration were "a matter of deep regret".



But the archbishop's carefully worded statement avoided direct criticism or endorsement of the consecration which he said had been made "in good faith".



"The effects of this upon the ministry and witness of the overwhelming majority of Anglicans particularly in the non-western world have to be confronted with honesty," he added.



The consecration service, at a specially converted ice-hockey arena in the town of Durham, was held amid tight security, with police on rooftops and in heavy presence on the street.



About 4,000 people, including 50 American bishops, as well as Bishop Robinson's family and parishioners, attended the colourful, but controversial ceremony.



There was an impassioned standing ovation in the arena before he was presented with brightly coloured vestments by members of his family, including his mother and father.



And then, his voice cracked with emotion, he spoke, saying "You cannot imagine what an honour it is for you to have called me."



'Symbol of unity'



Earlier, when Presiding Bishop Frank Griswold asked the congregation: "If any of you know any reason why we should not proceed, let it be made known," three church members stepped forward to air their objections.



One, Earl Fox from Pittsburgh, began to graphically list homosexual practices but was told not to go into detail.



Assistant Bishop David Bean of Albany, New York, who spoke on behalf of a group of dissenting US and Canadian bishops, said: "The ministry of this one bishop will not be recognised by most Anglicans in the world."



But the consecration sermon by New Hampshire's retiring Bishop Douglas Thunder was interrupted twice by vigorous applause as he defended Robinson.



Bishop Robinson "will stand as a symbol of the unity of the church in a way none of the rest of us can", he said



Outside, protesters and supporters of Canon Robinson faced each other off, kept apart by mounted police, while a separate service for those against the consecration took place in a church in another part of the town.



Some traditionalists, who view homosexuality as a violation of the teachings of the Bible, plan to ask the spiritual leader of the world's Anglican Christians, Archbishop of Canterbury Dr Rowan Williams, for permission to split from the Church.



But, despite the deep divisions, Dr Williams has predicted the rift will eventually heal.



"God will still teach us in our separateness; and one day we shall be led, in both thankfulness and repentance, to share with one another what we have learned apart," he said before the ceremony.



'At peace'



World Anglican leaders warned last month that the canon's consecration would lead to further division and could even split the entire Church.



Archbishop Peter Aioli [GG: that's a BBC typo, it's "Akinola"], the primate of the Nigerian Church, the largest in the Anglican community, called Gene Robinson's sexuality an abomination.



But Canon Robinson told the BBC he felt calm and at peace and he was not concerned that he will not be widely accepted as a bishop abroad.



"Well, it makes me feel like I'm in very good company because most of the bishops around the world wouldn't recognise the ministries or ordinations of our women priests and our women bishops.



"The other fact is that I'm not welcome now as an openly gay priest in most of those places," he said.




news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3233459.stm



Some of you might be shocked by the "priest" who, at the appointed time for raising objections, went into a graphic description of sexual acts. I was not.



I had the honor of attending the ordination to the priesthood of the Rev. Barry Stopfel in 1991, who was only the second publicly-out Episcopal ordinand at that time. At the appointed time of objection, some old guy tottered forward.



What do you think he said: Biblical arguments? Theological position papers? A prayer from his (mistaken) heart? Nope. He begin to scream graphic descriptions of sexual acts at the top of his lungs.



I tell you, there is no way I can believe these types are even Christian. No, they participate in a form of demon-worship---where those demons take the form of genitalia in places they believe they ought not to be. It's totally bizarre. :rolleyes



At that ordination, the only thing that saved it was Barry's partner, who interjected himself directly in front of the raving lunatic---selflessly taking all the abuse onto himself (to symbolically protect his beloved). And the congregation, which softly began singing "Peace is Flowing like a River" until the foul-mouthed cretin was finally overtaken by sweet harmony.



GG But enough of those losers: today is OUR DAY! Praise God, and thank you for the ministry of the Rt. Rev. Gene Robinson! Out



:pride :applause :banana :pray :happycry :party :dance :pride :applause :banana :pray :happycry :party :dance :pride :applause :banana :pray :happycry :party :dance :pride :applause :banana :pray :happycry :party :dance :pride :applause :banana :pride



Gatito Grande
 


For a post-Massachusetts laugh . . .

Postby Gatito Grande » Thu Nov 20, 2003 12:03 am

I found this over on alt. religion. christianity-episcopal. I'm not sure of the author (the URL is fake), but it's just funny (in a rude way!) :devilish



Quote:
Traditional marriage in America comes to an end



WorldNutDaily.org



Thousands of formerly ardent Christians filed for divorce

this morning, as others raped their children and household

pets, after the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court ruled

that gay people are citizens too.



"My marriage is over," spoke one upset Christian as he

dry-humped the fender of a parked car. "My marriage isn't

worth anything," he insisted. "I feel no connection to my wife

and children and I just want to do whatever I please, when it

pleases me to do it." With that he turned to a passing elderly

woman and shouted for her to reveal her "tits."



This same scene is being repeated over & over again, on

every street in every city & town in America. Once devoted

parents & spouses, America's Christians are denouncing any

bonds between themselves and their families as they embark

on a binge of sex, drugs and socialism.



"We warned you that this would happen," insisted one anti

human rights activist. "We told you that gay citizens enjoying

equal rights would destroy marriage, the family and even

Christianity itself. And now it's happened," he said. "You

should have listened to us. If you had, I wouldn't of had to

have sex with three different strange men in a public restroom

this morning."



The fallout from today's decision is enormous and far reaching.

So big is the change that swept America this morning that it may

be days before a true accounting of the damage is complete. As

things stand, one uncomfirmed report has Bob Jones Jr., of Bob

Jones University, defecating on his bible upon hearing the news,

while other witnesses have come forward to report that they had

seen Pat Robertson, former leader of the Christian Coalition and

the host of the 700 club, enjoying sex with a chair.



Congress was quick to pass an appropriations bill funding the

thousands of new orphanages needed to care for the abandoned

children. It is hoped that this is only a temporary measure and

that Christians will yet accept the financial reponsibility for their

families, even if they no longer love them and insist on

masturbating in public.




GG It's funny, because it's true :lol Out







Gatito Grande
 


Re: The Scarier "Religion & Homosexuality" Thr

Postby sam7777 » Tue Mar 02, 2004 11:09 am

Quote:
to be honest I don't care if homosexuality or CD,TG or any other so called alternative life style is a sin.
willowrulz4ever: I guess I care if homosexuality is considered a sin though I know I shouldn't if I don't share those beliefs. It scares me because homosexuality being considered a sin has been used as a justification for violence against GLBT people. I also don't think that homosexuality is an alternative life style because I think that it's not a choice but that you are born that way. That's my 2 cents in any case.



BTW what are CD and TG?



ETA: Thanks Dekalog! I should have been able to guess CD and TG. :shy

_____________________

I still see dead lesbian cliches

Edited by: sam7777  at: 3/2/04 11:02 am
sam7777
 


Re: The Scarier "Religion & Homosexuality" Thr

Postby dekalog » Tue Mar 02, 2004 11:40 am

CD = crossdresser

TG = Transgendered



at least usually (I might be wrong)



I myself am very tired of the homsexuality is a sin thing. Believer or not, I have had too many righteous folk in my day yell, spit, and otherwise try to put me in my place when I was younger to be able to say as a Wiccan that these people's opnion's have had no effect on me.



Because ya know according to scripture it is also a sin to wear blended fabric's and to eat lobster (among other's) - where is the outrage to this? :eyebrow



P-Flag has a great little pamplet in answer to sin and homosexuality -

www.ncf.ca/ip/sigs/life/gay/religion/sin



Also being gay isn't being a part of an alternative lifetyle. It is what someone is. Sorry to be blunt, but this just irks me.



Edited by: dekalog at: 3/2/04 10:44 am
dekalog
 


Re: The Scarier "Religion & Homosexuality" Thr

Postby urnofosiris » Wed Mar 03, 2004 9:42 am

Lol Diebrock, thanks for posting that link. That puts things in perspective perfectly. :laugh

Edited by: DrG at: 3/3/04 8:42 am
urnofosiris
 


Re: The Scarier "Religion & Homosexuality" Thr

Postby Diebrock » Wed Mar 03, 2004 10:30 am

Quote:
Because ya know according to scripture it is also a sin to wear blended fabric's and to eat lobster (among other's) - where is the outrage to this?
Right here. :p

_________________

Independence is my happiness, and I view things as they are, without regard to place or person; my country is the world, and my religion is to do good.

I've kissed her best friend. I've reached into her best friend's pocket and fished around for keys. And I gave her best friend my number. I must be doing something totally, totally wrong... - TBSOL by Dreams

Diebrock
 


Re: The Scarier "Religion & Homosexuality" Thr

Postby dekalog » Wed Mar 03, 2004 11:12 am

Thanks that was sooooooooooooo funny



:lmao

dekalog
 


Re: The Scarier "Religion & ity" Thr

Postby BohemianKitten » Wed Mar 03, 2004 12:31 pm

Quote:


I myself am very tired of the homo.sex.uality is a sin thing. Believer or not, I have had too many righteous folk in my day yell, spit, and otherwise try to put me in my place when I was younger to be able to say as a W.iccan that these people's opnion's have had no effect on me.




Amen to that! So many people still (though I am not Christian) still think "my soul needs saving" because I'm l.esbian! Since when has loving someone required a soul clensing?



Edited cause my computer is lame and kills words...:happy

:peace and :pride Forever

Edited by: BohemianKitten at: 3/3/04 11:34 am
BohemianKitten
 


Church Trial of Lesbian Minister

Postby Gatito Grande » Thu Mar 04, 2004 9:45 pm

Quote:
SOULFORCE TO ‘SHUT DOWN’ THE CHURCH TRIAL OF UNITED METHODIST MINISTER REV. KAREN DAMMANN IN AN ACT OF NONVIOLENT CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE



Trial near Seattle is “Blatant Hypocrisy” and an “Act of Spiritual Violence” against all GLBT people.



Press Release, March 1, 2004

For Immediate Release

Contact: Laura Montgomery Rutt

Cell: 717-278-0592 Laura@soulforce.org





(Lynchburg, VA) – On March 17, 2004, in Bothell WA, the United Methodist Church will hold a church trial against Rev. Karen Dammann, an openly lesbian pastor in the Seattle area, who admitted to church leaders that she is in a covenantal relationship with another woman, and they are raising a child together. Rev. Dammann is being charged with violating the United Methodist Book of Discipline because she is a “self-avowed practicing homosexual.”



Soulforce, a national interfaith movement committed to ending spiritual violence perpetuated by religious policies and teachings against gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender people, is planning a nonviolent civil disobedience prior to the start of the trial.



The trial takes place at Bothell United Methodist Church, 18515 92nd NE, in Bothell, WA (near Seattle). Jury selection is scheduled to begin at 9:30am, but Soulforce will be blocking the entrance of the church to prevent jurors and church officials from entering. A press conference and civil disobedience is scheduled to begin at 8:45am in front of the church.



“It is so heartbreaking that the United Methodist Church, my church, is sending a message to the world that, ‘if you are gay or lesbian, and you lie about who you are and who you love, you can serve in silence, but if you tell the truth, we are going to punish you,’” declared Marylee Fithian, co-chair of the Soulforce United Methodist Denominational Team from California. “We feel we have no choice but to try to prevent the trial from taking place.”



Those taking part in the civil disobedience are required to participate in a nonviolence training to be held the night before at 6pm at the IUOE Local 302 Union Hall, 18701 120th Ave. NE, in Bothell. Soulforce emphasizes that it teaches and employs the nonviolent principles of Gandhi and King to the liberation of sexual minorities.



“It is not a crime to admit to being in a committed relationship. It is not a sin to be homosexual. God’s greatest commandment is to “love one another,” said Rev. Mel White, founder of Soulforce, Inc. “We believe that the crime here is being committed by the United Methodist Church, because the church is denying the worth and dignity of Karen Dammann and all of God’s gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender people.”



Rev. White is available for phone interviews any time, and will be available for in-person interviews in the Seattle area beginning March 12, 2004. Interviews can be arranged by calling 717-278-0592.




For more information on Soulforce see www.soulforce.org/



For information on the Dammann trial, see www.soulforce.org/denomin...manntrial/



GG Wish I was there :pride Out



****************************************************************************************************



Update on Dammann Trial:



Quote:
Methodists Put Minister on Trial for Declaring Herself a Lesbian

By LAURIE GOODSTEIN

Published: March 18, 2004





OTHELL, Wash., March 17 — The Rev. Karen Dammann, a United Methodist minister, went on trial in a church here on Wednesday for openly declaring that she is in a lesbian relationship.



The judge is a retired bishop, the jurors 13 of her fellow ministers. She is charged with violating church law by living in a homosexual relationship, which United Methodist Church law says is "incompatible with Christian teachings."



But this is a church at war with itself, enforcing a law that many of its own clerics and members here say they find immoral and un-Christian. Ms. Dammann's defense lawyer said in opening arguments that he would use Scripture and the church's own Book of Discipline to argue that her prosecution is at odds with the church's teaching and heritage.



The lawyer, the Rev. Robert C. Ward, a retired minister from Tacoma, said: "Karen has chosen not to live the lie. She has invited the United Methodist Church to come out of the closet with her and live a life of open honesty."



When a grim Ms. Dammann arrived at the church just northeast of Seattle on Wednesday with her partner and their young son at her side, she was hugged by supportive clergy members, praised by the bishop who had pressed the charges against her and hailed as a hero by dozens of hymn-singing protesters who made a show of blocking the door of the church to prevent the trial from going forward.



Thirty-three protesters were politely arrested and put on a bus while two men shouted that homosexuality is a sin that God will punish.



The trial poses a dilemma for the Methodist Church in the Pacific Northwest region, which has a more liberal stance on homosexuality than many other regions of the church. Two times in the last four years, clergy panels here decided to dismiss the charges against Ms. Dammann. Yet, this trial is going ahead on the insistence of the church's Judicial Council, the equivalent of its Supreme Court.




See the rest of the article here:



www.nytimes.com/2004/03/1...anted=1&hp



NYTimes requires (free) registration to read





Edited by: Gatito Grande at: 3/19/04 11:15 pm
Gatito Grande
 


The Issue is Honesty

Postby Gatito Grande » Tue Mar 30, 2004 1:32 am

[Ack! I hate making successive posts on a thread. There's just so much I can add to a previous one, especially when there's a change of subject]



As some of you may know, my church tradition, the Episcopal Church (ECUSA), last year elected, confirmed, and consecrated a bishop who is gay, V. Gene Robinson (Diocese of New Hampshire). Because of this, many parts of the worldwide organization of the church, the Anglican Communion, have expressed significant hostility to the ECUSA, in some cases breaking their formal relationship w/ us. In response to the uproar, the leading bishops of the church (first in each nation, or "primate") formed a commission to look into the "problem." (so-called)



ECUSA's primate, Presiding Bishop Frank Griswold, sent a letter to this commission, and it's a fascinating read (well, to me anyway), w/ a bunch of history of LGBT people in the church over the last 35 years. You can read the whole letter here: www.anglican.tk/modules.p...ge&pid=514 (be warned, the website is not gay-poz. Though the letter is quoted accurately, they have highlighted a portion on their own---presumably because they believe it attacks them . . . which it doesn't).



The part of Griswold's letter I found most interesting follows. It clearly portrays, as LGBT Anglicans have said all along, that the issue isn't sexuality, it's honesty:



Quote:
I might say that the very public and open nature of our [ECUSA's] actions is a factor here. This is both healthy and problematic. Not long ago I was at a meeting in Spain which included Christians from a number of ecclesial communities, one of which had made strongly critical statements about the New Hampshire consecration. I had a long conversation with the bishop representing that church, who castigated me for having allowed the ordination of Gene Robinson to occur. Once he had delivered himself of his anger he surprised me by saying that there were indeed homosexual clergy and bishops in his church, but that it was looked upon as “human weakness” and a private matter between themselves and their spiritual fathers. Only if their homosexuality became public was the church obliged to intervene. I said to him that though I could appreciate capitulation to “human weakness” I was concerned that he was describing a climate of secrecy, and a practice that was tolerated that stood at variance with the public position of the church.



Was that not a dishonest stance? Would it not be far more helpful and truthful, albeit difficult, to deal openly with the reality which heretofore has remained hidden? Is not secrecy the Devil’s playground?




Preach it, Frank+!



GG The Church should be an welcoming "House of Prayer for All People" . . . not a frickin' closet! :pride Out



Gatito Grande
 


Ordained by baptism by Martin E. Marty

Postby skittles » Sun May 02, 2004 6:22 pm

OK, it's Sunday. I skipped church (again) and I was surfing & found this commentary by a writer that I really like. And I thought that I'd share this column with you.



From The Christian Century .



Ordained by baptism



Martin E. Marty



Testimony, not advocacy, is my intent in this first foray into a subject about which church bodies argue: the "blessing of gay marriage/unions" and "ordination to clergy status" of men and women in committed homosexual partnerships. Let me separate the two. The "blessing" item is now part of presidential politics, a subject M.E.M.O never touches. But the "ordination" motif is focal in the Body of Christ, and is not the business of the unregenerate.



Impressed by my own church body's fair-minded materials (http://www.elca.org/faithfuljourney) but dismayed by the heat of the arguments here as in all churches, from Roman Catholic to Anabaptist, I lapse into a wishing mode. I wish we could start this one all over, this time dealing with it not only as what Martin Buber would call an "I-It" dispute but in a conversational "I-Thou" form.



The "It" people in both camps write and read lengthy biblical, theological and psychological documents that cancel each other out. A fundamental mistake made by those homosexual people who would be ordained, or those who would support them in this quest, was to let their opponents type their pleas as part of "the [secular] gay agenda" or "the homosexual issue." Put this way, the conflict leaves us at war with each other and poised for divisive denominational votes.



My perspective is that of a senior visitor at theological schools and ministerial assemblies, a wanderer who is open to listening and who gets approached by candidates for ordination. That experience helps me understand why so many moderators, presbyters, bishops, professors, credentialing committees and pastors are seen as "soft." They regularly look into the eyes of men and women who have a consuming desire to serve in the ordained clergy. I puzzle with them about church bodies that proclaim we are all ordained to ministry by our baptism--a.k.a. "the priesthood of all believers"-- and yet set standards of Christian living for ordained clergy that exclude gay and lesbian members of the church who have been "ordained" by baptism.



My friends are bemused by what they call the "hermeneutical" issue: why the six or seven inches of print in the biblical testaments that condemn man-with-man and woman-with-woman sexual relations get treated "literally" while the much more strenuous Jesus-of-the-gospel strictures against divorce are not treated in the same way by most denominations. (my emphasis, not MEM's)



Most of the gay and lesbian Christians with whom I meet don't spend much time scrambling to pick up allies on a "gay agenda" or "homosexual issues" front. They are more likely to speak in puzzlement about the mystery of their own sexual identity, as unsought as was that of their heterosexual counterparts. They denounce homosexual promiscuity as much as others denounce, or should denounce, heterosexual misconduct.



Some cry when they talk about the portrayals that demean the quality of their covenanted partnership. Though they don't bring it up, people in the parishes where they worship and where in ordained-by-baptism ways they minister point to the exemplarity of their grace-filled lives. We hear that he or she is "exactly the kind of person" or, in the "I-Thou" world, the person we would like to be our minister. Most of those I meet speak with far more clarity about their life in Christ, their call under the Holy Spirit, than do those who do not have to defend their very being, as gays do.



Jesus observed the Sabbath, but also knew when the "Thou" before him called him to transcend the boundaries of Sabbath rules. It is called "loving," a loving that needs to be extended to gay Christians.

(end of article)

skittles



If you tell a joke in the forest and nobody laughs, was it a joke?

skittles
 


Re: Ordained by baptism by Martin E. Marty

Postby charmedloverloes » Mon May 03, 2004 5:13 am

I saw on the news that there are people here in the Netherlands who say the gay people should be pushed off of buildings, with their head down.



...That's just awfull...:sob :(

~xxx~ Loes

charmedloverloes
 


Gay-Rights Activists Denied Communion

Postby Warduke » Mon May 31, 2004 9:31 am

From Yahoo...



Quote:
Gay-Rights Activists Denied Communion



By MIKE COLIAS, Associated Press Writer



CHICAGO - Parishioners who wore rainbow-colored sashes to Mass in support of gays and lesbians were denied communion in Chicago, while laymen in Minnesota tried to prevent gay Roman Catholics from getting the sacrament.       



Priests at Holy Name Cathedral in Chicago refused to give the Eucharist to about 10 people wearing the sashes at Sunday Mass. One priest shook each person's hand; another made the sign of the cross on their foreheads.



"The priest told me you cannot receive communion if you're wearing a sash, as per the Cardinal's direction," said James Luxton, a Chicago member of the Rainbow Sash Movement, an organization of Catholic gay-rights supporters with chapters around the country.



An internal memo from Chicago Cardinal Francis George that became public last week instructed priests not to give communion to people wearing the sashes, which the group's members wear every year for Pentecost. The memo says the sashes are a symbol of opposition to the church's doctrine on homosexuality and exploit the communion ritual.



"The Rainbow Sash movement wants its members to be fully accepted by the Church not on the same conditions as any Catholic but precisely as gay," George wrote. "With this comes the requirement that the Church change her moral teaching."



Rainbow Sash Movement spokesman Joe Murray was among those denied communion in Chicago. He said members wearing the sashes should be seen no differently than a uniformed police officer or Boy Scout seeking communion.



"What we saw today in the cathedral is discrimination at the Eucharistic table, and that shouldn't be happening," Murray said. Those denied communion returned to their pews, but stood while the rest of the congregation knelt.



The movement, which started about five years ago in England, also has members in Dallas, New Orleans, New York and Rochester, N.Y.



In St. Paul, Minn., people wearing the rainbow-colored sashes were given communion Sunday despite protests from some parishioners who kneeled in front of the altar blocking their way.



The Rev. Michael Skluzacek said in a written statement that both sides were "mistakenly using the Mass and the Eucharist to make their own personal statements."



Brian McNeill, organizer of the Rainbow Sash Alliance of the Twin Cities, said the local group has worn the sashes every Pentecost at St. Paul Cathedral since 2001, but the group had never experienced such a confrontation.



A Vatican doctrinal decree last year directed at Catholic politicians said a well-formed conscience forbids support for any law that contradicts "fundamental" morality, with abortion listed first among relevant issues. A second Vatican statement said it is "gravely immoral" not to oppose legalization of same-sex unions.



___



Associated Press Writer Elizabeth Dunbar in St. Paul, Minn., contributed to this report.



Firefox: One Browser To Rule Them All.

Warduke
 


Authorized Episcopal Same-Sex Union Liturgies in Vermont

Postby Gatito Grande » Mon Jun 21, 2004 12:31 am

More Good News! :pride This story could just have easily gone on the Same-Sex Marriage Thread (except for the 'phobic quotes. Fie on them! :miff ), but here ya go . . . :grin



Quote:
New rites for Vt. civil unions

Episcopal bishop sees three-year trial period

By Michael Paulson, Globe Staff | June 18, 2004



In a move that is likely to further inflame tensions in the global Anglican Communion, the Episcopal bishop of Vermont today will introduce two new rites, very similar to the liturgy for Episcopal weddings, for priests to use while presiding at civil unions of gays and lesbians.



Episcopal priests in Vermont have already been quietly solemnizing and blessing civil unions for four years, since the state legalized them for same-sex couples. But in introducing standardized rites -- a symbolically significant step in a highly liturgical church -- the Vermont diocese is signalling it fully endorses same-sex relationships.



''The commitment we are asking of persons who are entering into holy unions is of the same nature as the commitment we are asking of couples who are entering holy matrimony," Vermont Bishop Thomas Clark Ely said in a telephone interview from the diocesan headquarters in Burlington. ''These relationships are expressive of God's love . . . and the church should be willing to recognize and embrace these loving and committed relationships."



Ely said the rites will be used on a trial basis and will be evaluated annually for three years.



The action by the Diocese of Vermont comes as the global Anglican Communion, and its American province, the Episcopal Church USA, are riven by controversies over homosexuality, many playing out in New England. Last summer, the Diocese of New Hampshire elected a gay priest as its bishop; now the dioceses of Massachusetts and Western Massachusetts are grappling with how to respond to the legalization of same-sex marriage in this state.



A global commission, appointed by Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams, this week was meeting in North Carolina as it examines the impact of the controversies on the 70 million member Anglican Communion.



Ely, who said he has blessed the civil union of a gay Episcopal priest, said the Anglican Communion needs to recognize the ''context" in which Episcopalians live, and that in Vermont, that context is that civil unions for gays and lesbians have been legal for four years, and many gays and lesbians are active participants in the Episcopal Church. The lead plaintiff in the case that led to the creation of civil unions in Vermont is a lay Episcopalian who now serves as senior warden at the diocesan cathedral; the state representative who headed the legislative committee that oversaw the creation of civil unions is also an Episcopalian and now the chancellor of the Vermont diocese; and the Episcopal bishop at the time testified in favor of civil unions.



''I'm hoping that the local context in which we're doing our pastoral work is recognized -- the context in Vermont is very different than the context in Nigeria, and I wouldn't presume to understand the cultural context of Nigeria, but I would respect the local culture and context in which that diocese operates," Ely said



Page 2 of 2 -- Nigeria, with an estimated 15 million Anglicans, has more Anglican adherents than any other nation, and the Anglican primate there has been an outspoken critic of homosexuality and gay relationships. The Episcopal Church USA has 2.3 million members, including 8,700 in Vermont.



''Vermont has had four years [of civil unions], and Vermont hasn't fallen off the map," Ely said. ''I believe that we're in a better place because of our capacity to be able to affirm the loving, committed relationships of gay and lesbian people, and because those couples enjoy the legal rights that are so desperately needed for them."



Because the decision by Vermont is to be announced today, there has been little reaction thus far. But, told of the planned action by a reporter, the New England head of an evolving national coalition of conservative Episcopalians expressed dismay.



''It's a very destructive act in terms of the traditional doctrine of marriage, and the status of the whole Anglican Communion," said the Rev. William L. Murdoch, who is rector of All Saints Church in West Newbury and who serves as dean of the Northeast convocation of the Anglican Communion Network. ''It is contrary to the wishes of the archbishop of Canterbury, the primates, and the global leadership of the church, and it shows a disregard for the catholicity of the global church."



Ely said dissent in Vermont over the liberal movement of the national church has been minimal -- he said no parishes in Vermont have asked to affiliate with the Anglican Communion Network or have asked for supervision by a conservative bishop. He said he expected ''a few" priests in Vermont would decline to officiate at civil unions for same-sex couples and that clergy would not be required to do so.



The situation in Vermont is unique because civil unions are legal there, but many Episcopal dioceses around the country are struggling with whether and how to bless same-sex couples. Priests in Vermont can sign the state documents couples use to form civil unions, a contrast to Massachusetts, where same-sex marriage is legal but there are no civil unions, and where the bishop has asked Episcopal priests not to sign marriage licenses.



Although Massachusetts Bishop M. Thomas Shaw has barred priests from solemnizing same-sex marriages, he has authorized the blessing of married same-sex couples so long as the actual signing of the marriage license is done by someone other than an Episcopal priest. Ely said he agrees with Shaw's decision, and that there is no question the Episcopal church's canons bar same-sex marriage.



Last summer, the Episcopal Church's general convention passed a resolution declaring that ''local faith communities are operating within the bounds of our common life as they explore and experience liturgies celebrating and blessing same-sex unions," and dioceses in Delaware, Nevada, New Hampshire, and Washington, D.C., have official policies allowing the blessing of same-sex couples, according to Integrity USA, an organization that advocates for gay and lesbian Episcopalians.



In Vermont, Ely plans to ask priests to use essentially the same process for uniting gay couples as they use for straight couples -- requiring at least one partner to be a baptized Christian, asking couples to go through relationship counseling before being blessed, and imposing the same restrictions on people who seek a second civil union after a first one breaks up as the church places on couples who seek to remarry after a divorce.



Gay and lesbian couples will be asked to sign a ''declaration of intention" that is nearly identical to the declaration used by heterosexual couples getting married in an Episcopal Church. In the declaration, the same-sex couples will state, ''We believe that the union of two partners is intended by God for their mutual joy, for the encouragement and support given one another in daily life and changing circumstances, for the deepening of faith as they experience God's love in their love for one another, and (if it may be) the physical and spiritual nurture of children."



Priests will then solemnize the civil unions and pronounce, ''In exchanging vows of love, support and fidelity, N and N are now joined in holy and civil union, as celebrated by this community of faith, and as recognized by the State of Vermont. May the grace of God be with them for ever."




www.boston.com/news/local...al_period/





GG How much do I love being an Episcopalian? :pray Quite a lot! :applause Out





Gatito Grande
 


Need Some Help....

Postby Repost Moderator » Tue Jul 20, 2004 12:45 pm

Originally posted by Dawnsman





Hey everyone, I need some help on an issue. I post on another board for a cast member on Buffy as well and we are having a debate on an issue there. I seem to be the only poster there who believes that homosexuals were made that way from God. The other posters, including the cast member, believes that God did not make homosexuals that way and that it is a choice (and also a sin). I need some evidence to disprove this theory of theirs. Can anyone help me out?



One posted this as evidence that it is a choice.



"In 1993, biologist Dean Hamer of the National Cancer Institute found that in 40 pairs of homosexual brothers, 33 of them had the same set of DNA sequences in a part of the chromosome called, "Xq28."



This has caused many homosexual leaders to proclaim this "evidence" and demand respect and acceptance of homosexuality because of this apparent genetic trait.



However, in late June of 1995, reports were confirmed that Dean Hamer was being investigated by the Office of Research Integrity at the Department of Health and Human Services. Reports found that Hamer may have selectively reported his research and data – which has led many to question the credibility of his research.



Furthermore, in the late '90s, a team of researchers at the University of Western Ontario in Canada found no trace or evidence of the gay gene in homosexual men. The study found that the region of the X chromosome known as "Xq28" has nothing to do with the sexual orientation of a person. "



This is what the Buffy cast member said in the thread...



"God does not create anyone to be gay. one may have a proclivity toward that from as early as they can remember, but God does not create some people to be gay and others straight."



Can someobody help me with this issue? I want to give some evidence that God created homosexuals to be who they are.



Thanks.

Repost Moderator
 


Re: Need Some Help....

Postby urnofosiris » Tue Jul 20, 2004 1:11 pm

First of all, which cast member? I am not going to let being an atheist stop me from replying to this. I am always fascinated by religious people who seem to be plugged into to the will of god. Isn´t it a tad presumptuous to be oh so absolutely sure of what it is that gods does, thinks, wants or intends. How does that quote go again? Judge not lest thou be judged? Excuse me if I got it wrong, I am an atheist after all and I may have missed the part where that says ´unless the person in question is gay´.



How in the world can anyone prove what god intends when no one can prove god exists, no one can disprove it either, just like no one can disprove that god created gay people. Seems to me that what people believe is a choice. Some people choose to believe being gay is a choice and somehow wrong. I guess they prefer that over believing that god created everything the way it is, including homosexuality. Maybe god is sitting there waiting and hoping for people to accept, respect and love each other unconditionally and leave the judging up to him.



I firmly believe in the biological basis of homo, hetero or bisexuality, if only because it has been proven over and over again that upbringing does not make someone gay and no amount of ´deprogramming´ can ´cure´ homosexuality. I say ´believe´ too, because that biological basis can´t be proven a 100%. It is not so simple as there being a straight or gay gene, but there is rather suggestive evidence gathered by professor Swaab in both animal and human studies that homosexuality and transsexuality have a biological basis. There are distinct differences in certain tiny areas of the brain. Note I say differences, not abnormalities. Hell will freeze over before people will be willing to accept his findings, but I know the man and I am certain of the scientific and objective results of his studies. His findings still do not explain the why of these differences. As it is, does it really matter whether a biological basis exists or not? If people believe being gay is wrong now, will that suddenly change if science proves it is biologically built in like skin color?



I´d like to believe bigotry is a choice, some may have the pro·cliv·i·ty, but that does not mean they have to give into it. They could choose to focus on the quotes in the bible that preach love and understanding instead, except when it comes to shrimp, they are an abomination and should all be cooked and eaten.





Edited by: DrG at: 7/20/04 12:24 pm
urnofosiris
 


Re: Need Some Help....

Postby DawnsMan » Tue Jul 20, 2004 4:23 pm

There was also a poster who said that homosexuality may be able to be cured. Can you believe that?



The cast member is Robia LaMorte, Jenny Calendar.

It feels like things just keep coming at me...I'm starting to wonder...It's easier not to let anyone in. ~Buffy

DawnsMan
 


Re: Need Some Help....

Postby Gatito Grande » Tue Jul 20, 2004 7:00 pm

See, this is why one should not begin their entertainment career as a back-up singer for Prince: because then you flip, and go off the deep end . . . :sigh



GG Recalling the problems Ms. LaMorte had w/ . . . crap! Can't remember the ep name (as happens w/ a lot of things pertaining to "that show" :happy ): S3, Christmas, heatwave, Angel slipping, Jenny/The First (:puke what Born-Again RLM objected to) Out



Will have more to say, DawnsMan, in response to the issues you (the discussion list you're on) raised, later . . .

Gatito Grande
 


Re: Need Some Help....

Postby dekalog » Thu Jul 22, 2004 5:17 am

Dawn's Man - awhile back I posted a link to a site that talks about Religion and Homosexuality - www.pflagnyc.org/brochures/religion.pdf - the original pamphlet was entitled "Is Homosexuality a Sin" so it should help you understand that argument a little better. As for the whole Nurture/Nature debate of what makes someone who they are science has alot of questions and not many answers, or perhaps alot of contradictory answers. For every example of one 'cause', you can find another study to refute it - with homosexuality or with other 'behaviours', such as heterosexuality.



Personally - I really don't care what anyone says "I am what I am' as Popeye would say, and anyone who tells me I am less than them because of it - well, let them work on there own issues. It is curious though that there are all those animals in this planetary kingdom that also exhibit 'gay' behaviour, so I don't think you can just put it down to an easy answer when there are so many species out there exhibiting their 'queerness'.



edited because in the early morning without enough caffeine I apparently cannot tell the difference between there and their.

Edited by: dekalog at: 7/22/04 4:26 am
dekalog
 

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